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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 05:52 PM
Original message
The Class War
I am readin an article for Gov class about how in ancient Italian democracies there were laws against rich men holding public office. The reasoning was that they held so much power in every other arena of society that they could not rightly hold any power in the public sphere. The point of the public sphere was to even out the balance of power between the rich and the poor. If such a proposal were to be made today, it would be deemed class warfare. Never mind that the rich are waging a constant war against us. What does DU think about this?
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 05:54 PM
Original message
fine with me...
If I get to define "rich"
(that's the problem)

Oh, yeah, and The Estate tax should be oh, say 95%.
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well,
I suppose in Rennaisance Florence they defined the rich as anyone who objected to that proposal.
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begin_within Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm all for it.
The repukes decry any attempt by anyone else to restore a more even distribution of wealth and power as "class warfare," as if that isn't allowed in America, yet nearly everything the repukes do is class warfare (for their class).
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. Republicans Love Playing the Perception Game
well... too bad for them, because the people aren't playing around anymore, and from what I have heard and seen, they are pissed!
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. That would be just - No Millionaires in Our Congress! n/t
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. What do you make of people from wealthy familes who..
have worked to make our world fair and just? People such as FDR and JFK? John Corzine is worth over 250 million dollars and he has consitantly worked towards economic and social justice.
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. The ancient Italians beleived that it was impossible for a wealthy man
to act in the interest of others. They beleived that no good could come from those that greedily amass fortunes while others sleep in the gutters.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. They can help others run and still be philanthropists ...
I submit that there are FAR MORE greedy politicians from wealthy families.

We admire the FEW who resist the temptation to horde their "old money" wealth.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
38. NED LAMONT is worth $100+ Dollars!
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
5. Depends upon who/what defines "riches". Liquid assets? Holdings?
The line would be too blurred IMO.
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. They had a simpler financial system in those days.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Right, but you asked what I thought about this today. No?
:shrug:
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I think that we must do something about this "Robber Baron" rule
or us "little people" will have NO Rights. Only those who can invest in the Stock Market at least $300,000 will have any control over Our Government, i.e., The Investor Class. The Average American Worker will basically serve the Mighty Corporations and The Government will promote the welfare of Corporations over that of The People.

We better do something to stop the Corporatization of Our Congress, and soon. :(
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. True
That's right. I really don't know how we would define it. Nowadays anyone can become obscenely rich and starting fighting for the other side. It isn't quite so easy as it was.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
6. And France, as in 'let them eat cake'.
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Of course she never said it
She didn't care enough about her people to even know about them. No one would ever have said to her "Your Highness, your people don't have any bread." They knew better than to bother her with such things. I don't even know if she was aware that her country had citizens.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
12. freepishly framed.
it would be deemed class warfare. Never mind that the rich are waging a constant war against us. What does DU think about this?

Notice how you shift your pronouns to "us" and "DU", just at the end of what is otherwise objective, suggesting DU as a single
particular class, rather than a sample across all classes. This sort of framing IS the problem.

The rich are not waging a war against "us" that is artfully perverse, my friend, given that the democratic party is the party of
wealth and the greatest prosperity the USA has ever known... artfully perverse.

We are all in a class war, as in we are fish in an aquarium where all the fish fight class wars, so what big deal, 'we' are not
a singularity, 'we' are not necessarily even educated or able to read, 'we' are spirit as well as matter, greater than an animal,
in a job, identified with a particular class, but people who've adapted across class boundaries our whole lives. Come off words
like "us" in this context, or the ops start to sound amazingly freepish.

Our culture today is an effective plutocracy. We live with a class war, so what. The poltiical parties are beyond that in a way,
representing narratives that cut across those identity phenomena.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. So What? We are The People and we outnumber the Corporate
Crones and Investor Class. That's what! And we should vote out all those who support any form of Corporate Welfare. We do have The Power, we just need "The Will."

How many manufacturing jobs have to be lost before we FINALLY take a stand?

Otherwise, we may be destine to re-live the tragedies of the 1930s. :scared:
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Be careful with that word 'we'
I will not participate in this lynchmob unless it includes the free and the wealthy, as it
is then a realistic movement, a realistic POV, that integrates the democratic parties long
standing ability to champion fair-deal economics.

Wealth has corrupted the electorate, where class demographics no longer coincide with the parties.

Write your propaganda to "we" across all wealth demographics, please.

If you can't do this, then why, is it an attachment/aversion problem?

The only way to not replay the 1930's is to not indulge it.

What do you want, a cambodain revolt where all the people with position or title get executed?
I've not to do with that, sorry... nope. Reframe yourself, and be wealth ambilalent, so you
can transcend american culture and join humanity, as we've got to survive on this planet,
and we need to start agreeing about a few things. The world will bankrupt the USA and isolate
it naturally, like blood isolates an infection now that it's been outed... and the whole
thing has become demographics and identity politics, played like a video game with
databases and advertizing dollars, ping, pong, geez, that's the new politics, batshit false
demo-idenitty politics to spam the enemy (the electorate) so that the USA can save the oil from islam.
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Quite frankly I am insulted by your insinuation that I am
Edited on Sun Sep-17-06 07:13 PM by John Gauger
proposing a violent revolution. I am simply asking people their opinion of an article that I am reading for college. I am baffled at accusation. I renounce all violence, and I don't appreciate your insinuations. I am not talking about any kind revolution, I am just talking about making society a little bit more equitable. What have I said that prompted you to attack me in such a way?
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Please don't take it personal
Why do you think i'm attacking 'you'. I am writing a contribution inspired by a paragraph i read on the
internet and you're up in personal insult an i don't even know you. yes? Please don't take insult, it
is directed at your invective, not its author. DU represents many thousands of writers who are inspired to
change the world, and 'we', all of uz writers, have a lot to gain, by getting our framing messages better understood.
We have been too long outframed, and partly i believe it is because of ignroance, so we need to start, imo, adding
footnotes of framing to ops and compositions, so that people can learn to inquire, rather than simply consume-and-be-framed.

We can't fight on class war boundaries because we are not aligned with them, that is what i'm saying, impersonally, is
that fair?
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. "OUR" re-framing messages? Isn't that what you just accused me of
including the "long ... oh so IMO long winded" attacking you?

You can't have it both ways Sweetheart.

Personally my head is spinning, in that, I may be a little simplistic ... not considering all factors in this discussion. However, the way you are ping ponging (:wtf: Cambodia?!?) I'm getting the distinct impression that you are attempting to break up our innocent brainstorming by "baffling us with educated bull shit" that doesn't have anything to do with *setting limits* on how many Powerful Elite (Ultra-Wealthy) can control our Congress.

I'm sorry if I set you off but please chase out the "bee in your bonnet" because quite honestly, neither myself NOR the thread originator is promoting "revolution" in ANY SENSE of the word. That was all your invention. :shrug:
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. ok, nevermind
just forget it. I'm jamming with you, not harping on you, somebody read
a bloody shakespeare play and find the part where all the characters agree
with each other and don't diverge in to odd quirky monolouges and asides periodically;
can't we similarly?

Nevermind. The whole poverty thing on DU is bullshit, the class war does not exist in
propaganda, only in intent, otherwise you demographically cut off the audience from majority.

"we" women 50%
"we" workers x%
"we" steelworkers y%
"we" DU'ers z%
"we" are these artificical composts of temporary identity, easist serves the propagandist
to write in small 'me' .00001% mode, but serves the propaganda to write in 100% mode.


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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. "We" are those of us who don't sit next to the president at
$2000 a plate dinners. "We" those who are part of the Neo-con vs. Big Oil war to determine our policy in Iraq. "We" are the wones who were not even asked if we wanted to go to war.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. We are the other 100% in that case
But the 30% of hardcore believers will gift themselves out of the treasury an infinite retirement
of 2000$ plate dinners to keep themselves in office forever in a winner take all system.

I totally agree with the "we" you're speaking about. I'm not in the US, and i'm not paying taxes for this war, THIS
time, some other poor sod is getting stiched up with the bill of the protection racket.

We are those who suffer under bush, we are black, white, american, jewish, lebannese, iraqi, white, mexican,
gay, disabled, poor, urban, rural, european, asian, iranian, muslim, indian and buddhist... all those who
have become separated from the 100% by lying media that singled us out wrongly as different somehow
less warranted of our right to pursue happiness in peace and liberty.

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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Yeah
I know. Where is all this comintg from?
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. I just don't know where you are getting the comparison
between myself and the Khmer Rouge. I take that kind of thing seriously.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Whoa! Who said anything about this being "a lynchmob"? Rather
Edited on Sun Sep-17-06 06:48 PM by ShortnFiery
more akin to like-minds on a message board.

If you're an unappreciated millionaire, my regrets.

Otherwise, it's not a bad "idea" to brainstorm.

Sweetheart, I think thou protest too much. ;)
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. I framed that last part the way I did
Because I am on a nonpolitical board that framed questions like that - e. g. "What should I do today, /b/?" AFter that your statement starts to break down, I don't know what you are talking about after that.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. just giving you a hard time
Its a fair question, what you ask, and begs developing, hence the implicit complement of my kick, no
matter what i said in the post. People need to constantly ask themselves why they identify with "we"
in a particular post. One needs always step back and look at what attachments of thought and self get
us to believe we are 'we', and not somebody else, a neutral observer who does not quite feel involved to
the point of 'we'.

'we', the voting electorate are amazingly selfish and interested in our own lives, and we don't give a toss
about the class war unless we lose our jobs, can't pay the mortgage, lose our child in war or some other
tragedy of the bushian circumstance... and then we struggle each person to survive, each a gnarled character
weathered by the storms of injustice, and to the end, laugingly dissolving in a luminous infinity of justice,
at who the joke is really on.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. That's cool, many of us loved to be treated
IMO with condescension. I'll take my "gnarled character" and dreams for the "luminous infinity of Justice" to others who don't chide my ideals. :eyes: :(
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. fair enough
Imo, historically, we are seeing the first ripples of what historians of future will call the 'american french revolution'.

My prayer is that those seeds do not repeat the last revolution by the cambodian fell classlines of the black and white
world of that time, nor to evolve in to our current time along race-lines for a mugabe revolution, or wealth-lines for
a kind of revolution i'm not pining for.

Apologies for a condescending post, it happens, i'm freestylin' and sometimes it comes off wrong.

I frankly did not read your monikder and thought you were the post's author i originally replied to, so how we wound
up in this chat, is pure humoure to start with, when the hurly-burly is done, when the battle's lost and won...
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. That's fair ... OK by me :-)
Have a good evening for I know you meant no harm. Perhaps a victim of too much intelligence (and Shakespeare!). IMO the vast majority of us want to change Our Government via Legal and Non-Violent means. That's exactly where you're kickin' up the ire. But you and I are cool because I know that you mean no disrespect to any of us. :hi:
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
17. I don't give a fuck if they say I am waging class warfare because
I am. They fucked with me and I am fighting back.

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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Damn straight!
Give 'em hell!
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #20
36. Why not? they have been giving it to us, and expected us
to worship them in return.
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nealmhughes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
32. Here is my blog entry at Screeching Rats on the 15th Sept.
Screeching Rats! http://screechingrats.wordpress.com

Screeching Rats
Hope for a better tomorrow and defeat of corporate power and neoconservatism.
Home
SCREECHING RATS!

The New C-word, or an open letter to the working people of the USA
September 15th, 2006

The True C-Word

The actual “C word” which cannot be uttered on the radio, on the television, or appear in print has five, not four letters. It is, of course, class. We hem and haw at the concept of the United States even having classes, much less dare attempt to make political appeals to any save a tremendous mythic “middle class.” By contemporary standards, everyone who can make carfare to get to work and not sleep in the street is “middle class,” save a few “rich” and the “poor.” For some odd reason people who work for others see themselves as “middle class.” That is for two reasons: the first is based on our rejection of the titled Europeans as our “betters,” and the other is the fact that economically, most working people were once at a standard of living that rivalled the European middle class and the people were truly mobile, that is, a man who worked hard as a laborer could, indeed, see his children become middle management and his grandchildren become professionals. That day is over. There might still linger a Duke of Devonshire in England, but there is just as surely a Marquis of Microsoft, not merely in the United States, but with title good throughout the world: Forbes magazine is the new Almanach de Gotha.

And as for the “American Dream,” based on the proposition that hard work resulted in decent benefits as well as good pay, and thus upward mobility (if not for the workers, then at least for their children), it seems that we, the American worker, whether at the counting house or on the assembly line, are rapidly becoming “expendable.” The economy is booming! The numbers do not lie. Unfortunately, it is booming based on the sale of electronic trinkets sold here but made in Asia and clothing made of cotton grown here but spun into thread, woven into cloth and cut and sewn in Asian sweatshops instead of here. Our cars from Detroit are now compressed and placed onto cargo ships where the steel is melted down and turned into Asian models.

The vast majority of people in the United States and Canada are paid wages for work performed or else are pensioned. We do not live off rents received from property we own or dividends on investments while producing nothing but carbon dioxide. We do not practice one of the free professions. We get paid by an individual or a company or a corportion either for our time or by our commissions: we are the working people, but seem ashamed to call ourselves what we are.

It is time for that to change.

We must become what Jefferson, Roosevelt, Truman and Jackson, great Democrats, dreampt: a nation of the common folk, capable of governing ourselves and independent from the restraints of decaying European social systems. We however have reached an industrial base which Jackson and Jefferson never imagined — not that we do not still produce a tremendous amount of agricultural produce. In fact, we feed a large portion of the world. We now have new feudal masters, as surely as Pre-Revolutionary France. The new “betters” are the Lords of the Universe, the unholy alliance of big business and big capital. Our government revolves around their axes.

They have created for us a nation of unhealthy air, nonpotable water, and oil slicks befouling our shores. Mountains of garbage fill plots just beyond our cities, our public transportation remains in danger at a simple majority of elected officials’ whims and continued sufferance, and in many places is either entirely lacking or else nothing more than a vanity vestige of its former glory. The major population centers, of course, are excepted in the area of public transport, the workers simply being utterly dependent upon the trains and buses that enable them to get to and from work. The rest of us outside of Boston, New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, San Francisco and Los Angeles and a few other places are at the mercy of the automobile. Even rudimentary concessions such as bicycle lanes are missing from our public thoroughfares. We have abandoned our cities for auto-dependent suburbs and exurbs, increasing our pollution and dependence on foreign oil while ignoring all alternative fuels. The globe is warming, the ice caps of the Artic and shelves of the Antartic are melting while glaciers receed in South America, Greenland and Europe. Do we wish half of Florida to be under water in one hundred years or for grain and trees to flourish in Iceland?

This is a global problem, and it is rooted in the mismanagement of the stewartship given us by Nature’s bounty to the people. Yet it is not the people, per se, who have mismanaged the lands and airs and waters. Our individual contributions are small, yet it is our system of large corporations shaping our daily lives that bear the brunt of the fault. It is not a man or a woman or even a family who decided to denude the mountainsides of Appalachia for coal. It is not a single person who decided that a single hull was sufficient to contain a tanker full of crude oil from grounding, but a corporation. It is corporations that have fought tooth and nail in a primal brutish fashion all attempts at making public and universal our most basic necessities: health care and energy production.

Finally, it is corporations who furnish the 24 hours of daily fear and hate that blanket our airwaves. The Republican corporate party appear to answer only to corporations, because that is wherein their campaign funds lie. The tell us that dissent is “treason.” To question the morality of the Iraq war is not to “support the troops” when they send our boys into battle underarmored and bereft of armor; and when we raise the reasoning of American youth ambushed in a war that was based on falsehood in a country in civil war, they tell us “stay the course.” These are the people who blanket our airwaves: shills and pawns of megacorporations. We ask for peace and they give us war. We ask for health care benefits and a decent pension and a just wage and they tell us with rhetoric and sermon that we are ingrates, deserving only what bones are tossed to us and that we are lucky to even have jobs, as we are easily replaced to another continent. The Republican government provides us no relief from “free trade” or “outsourcing” or “drowning the Federal government in a bathtub” — what we get is tax relief for the wealthy and our sons and brothers making a choice between the enlistment lines or unemployment lines and money disappearing faster than it can be printed: record defecits and trade inbalance. The present Republican corporate administration tells us that “unemployment is down” but neglects to mention that one disappears from the unemployment list after six months time and that many of the “new jobs” are nowhere near the benefit and pay level that the newly reemployed once had. The government neglects to inform us of the hardship in Mexico that NAFTA has caused, with native agriculture falling to record low levels as people flock from their self-sufficient farms with corn surplus to the colonias, that delicate word that replaces “open cesspool, no benefits, foul aired urban proletariat border zone to where US manufacturing jobs have disappeared.” Pity the poor Mexicans who have become urban peons, with no insurance, no environmental enforcement, and only more hours of labor the next day for a few pesos as solace. Is this what we wish the United States to become?

There is an alternative: a party that preaches peace and prosperity; real security and not slogans; jobs at a living wage with guaranteed health care for all; freedom for one to worship as one wishes or not at all; a return to the heritage of Jackson and Jefferson, that is to say, to the people. That is the progressive wing of the Democratic Party, the The Progressive Democrats of America the PDA, the wing of the Democratic Party that champions American workers, the party of Representatives Dennis Kucinich and John Conyers. They believe that government should be as Lincoln described: for, of and by the people. Corporations are not people. Do you people who work and produce want a share of political power, to have your voice unmuffled? If you want peace and not constant threat of war, an American economy centered on American workers and not abstract “corporate bottom lines,” if you want a safe home and a secure United States, then you have a choice: vote Democratic and Progressive Democratic whenever you have the chance. Be proud of what you are: working men and women, the most noble calling in all of Creation, the first jobs: Adam who delved and Eve who span!

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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. IMO Well Written :-)
Thank you for the quality narrative. :-)
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FloridaPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
34. Sounds a little like the 13th amendment. Maybe we should get
it into the Constitution.
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