Do you support universal national service?

[Renew Deal]

There is great discussion going on in this thread about whether the draft should have been started after 9/11. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2156920&mesg_id=2156920

I have seen over the years that many DUers support mandatory military or national service for young people. So how do you feel? Should there be mandatory military service? Should there be mandatory national service? Should things stay the way they are?

[Deja Q]

1. Self-del

:evilgrin:

[Renew Deal]

3. I can just imagine.

:spank: :)

[Hosnon]

2. The best argument for mandatory civil/military service is to end the

deification of the military.

The entire "I support the troops" discussion goes out the window.

[AndyTiedye]

39. A Draft Would Make "Deification of the Military" Worse

A draft tends to militarize the entire society.
There is more pressure to conform in all things, and more stigma on those who cannot do so.

The values of the military increasingly become the values of the society.
Academics take a back seat to athletics as schools try to prepare the kids to be good cannon fodder.

More bullying is tolerated because they figure that the weaker kids need to be "toughened up".
It doesn't work, of course, it just destroys what's left of their self-confidence.

Those whom the military cannot turn into soldiers, they all too often kill.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6988854/

[Armstead]

4. Other

I would not support it under normal circumstances, and if the nation is sane.

But I do support universal military servioce for young people if the nation continues to allow the government to follow its present course. Then it will be necessary as a wake-up call. We can't continue to support push-button wars in which it is easy to support aggressive behavior from a distance.

[pinto]

5. I support the option for national service, one or two years at age 18.

The specifics would be hotly debated, as they should be, but I think a 2 year commitment to the country isn't out of line with the benefits of citizenship. I could see that time being valuable for everyone - job training, intern support for research projects, local infrastructure support, fire/disaster training/support, tech internships, the options could be broad and well within the limits of personal choice about participation in citizenship.

I don't favor mandatory military service, nor would I support a voluntary political service - too ripe for abuse - under this proposal. But I think some broad based coalition of business, labor and government might make a two year "tour of duty" a good choice for many.

I think it's an idea worth a look. Kids don't have to jump right into college at graduation. Maybe an option to carry a basic course case load with national service on weekends?

A brief hiatus from formal schooling or a 40 hour, 9-5, especially if it's accepted across the board, wouldn't be detrimental to anyone's long term goals.

My 2 cents, off the top of my head.

[ikojo]

7. I agree...for the most part those who are doing

the sacrificing in Iraq and Afghanistan do not have the option of attending elite universities. It seems those who come from the poorest of our society are being asked to sacrifice for those who have never sacrificed a thing a day in their over privileged lives. Is it too much to ask upper middle class and rich kids to sacrifice for the country from which they derive much privilege and benefit?

[flaminbats]

28. no it isn't!

another thing I support, as a final requirement for getting a doctorate or law degree..that all medical or law students provide their service to the public, for the same period of time and pay as all who would serve in the military or other mandatory services do.

[BlackVelvet04]

6. No.....

I support freedom. Mandatory service is not freedom.

[Cleita]

8. I would support it only if the soldier has an option not to go to

war. I know this sounds crazy but hear me out. Most Americans are more than willing to serve their country in war for a just cause. WWII is proof of this. Able bodied men were signing up in droves after Pearl Harbor. So the CIC would have to persuade his soldiers to back up a war he wants to engage in. If they don't think it's a war that we should engage in, like Iraq, then the CIC would have to back down. I doubt very much if a force could have been mustered for Iraq under what was presented to the forces. Yet, everyone was ready to go to Afghanistan to get Osama.

Anyway, it seems that they had a back up plan anyway, mercenaries or contractors. So, I think a draft army could work with that condition. It seems more Democratic. Oh, I would ban mercenaries. A citizen's army is what works best.

[BlooInBloo]

16. Um, that doesn't just *sound* crazy.

[Cleita]

21. Maybe it is crazy, but I have this strange belief that no one

should be forced to commit the ultimate act, killing another human being, unless they are thoroughly convinced that it has to be done. On the other hand I believe a trained citizen militia is need for our protection.

[BlooInBloo]

23. Yup, I think it's a strange belief too.

[Cleita]

24. Funny. It worked for Alexander the Great. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

29. (shrug) A lotta things worked for Alex that no longer fly....

But rock on bemoaning the loss of "the good ol days"...

[AndyTiedye]

42. Not As Crazy As Making People Die for Halliburton

[BlooInBloo]

43. Yah - and those *really* are the only two options. REALLY. sheesh.

[AndyTiedye]

45. Under the Current Regime, Yes

[MUSTANG_2004]

56. I like that idea

I had little interest in doing a stint in the military, but would have liked to have the training to be available if I were needed. However, since the National Guard could be called up for any reason, and for extended periods of time, it was too much of a risk. If the NG had a policy that they couldn't deploy you for more than a month without your consent, I'd have had no problem with it.

Gulf War I completely vindicated my position, as I had some friends at the time that were stressing out about the possibility of being deployed to a war that they thought was pointless.

I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that I'd like to have been in a position to help if needed, but that I'd like some say on whether I think there really is a crisis.

[flaminbats]

9. not until the government provides universal healthcare..

then I would support mandatory service with a choice..military or national service, but mandatory military service alone is a proven mistake. It makes it even easier for politicians to take our men and women in uniform for granted and allows any who dare oppose screw-ups, like in Vietnam and Iraq, to be imprisoned as draft-dodging traitors. But national service with a choice would teach citizens at an early age that success and profits are not all there is to being American. It is also about helping others in need back up and giving up profits for a greater good.

[Solo_in_MD]

10. I actually like what Heinlien proposed in the book Starship Troopers

which was quite radical even today.
- Everyone has the same rights except for franchise
- Franchise can only be gained after completing a term of service for the government during which you would have to risk you life for the benefit of society. The vast majority of the time it was not in the military (terraforming etc)
- Anyone, regardless of phyiscal limitation and age could sign up for a term of service.
- If you went career, you could not vote until you retired

There is a bit more to it, and ignore the cheesy movie, it had little to do with the book. Heinlien took a number of radical stances in his books that were background in the story. Look at Moon is a Harsh Mistress for some ideas on family structure.

[Raydawg1234]

14. starship troopers is a facist movie, havent read the book though

[Solo_in_MD]

19. the book had little to do with the movie

Good book, bad, campy movie

[tbyg52]

22. Haven't seen the movie

Don't intend to, as I am told by sources I trust that it has little to do with the book.

Suggest you read the book through. Given its time (sexist stuff in there, but forgivable in context), I agree with it. You want to vote, do the service. We'd be a lot better off nowadays if the R's who have taken us to war had served.

Feminist atheist veteran Heinlein fan here!

[jscorse]

11. this is a weak idea

[Renew Deal]

31. this is a weak post.

What does this is a weak idea mean? Which idea is weak? Why?

[newyawker99]

53. Hi jscorse!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[bigwillq]

12. I oppose all mandatory national service (nt)

[Raydawg1234]

13. Do you have any idea how much tax money that would cost,

to create all those new bases and infrastructure for the military to tripple (or more) in size? Every young person??????? thats a LOT OF PEOPLE, and we do not have the money to afford this.

[Bluebear]

15. 'we do not have the money to afford this.'.....well, we did...

but that's shot.

[Renew Deal]

33. Not as much as you think.

It would be a reinvestment in our country. There will be places where costs can be cut. Replace some weapons with troops. Replace some federal workers with national servants. Send some to places where they can help the needy through programs that already exist. Keep pay low meaning that taxes are already taken out in a way.

It would make the people involved more valuable to society. Instead of spending 2 years drinking and getting laid, they spend it serving the country, drinking and getting laid.

[AndyTiedye]

36. Thus Replacing good stable union jobs with slave labor.

Replace some federal workers with national servants.

Even the threat of being replaced by low-wage conscripts would be
enough to overcome any demands the workers might be making.

Some of the proposals would make conscript labor available
to selected (!) private companies as well.

[Renew Deal]

38. Who says that they would be available to private labor?

Where did you read that? I would oppose that completely. But I would support good young people doing needed work in the VA, State Department, Dept. of Interior, etc. There is a lot of work to be done and so much to learn.

[AndyTiedye]

41. Lots of Work to Be Done & Lots of Workers Willing to Do It for a Fair Wage

[Raydawg1234]

17. And I suppose that when all the young people are off in the Military....

we'll bring in Mexicans to replace them at work.

[Ravenseye]

18. Mandatory Service Industry Service

Everyone should be forced to work in a public facing service industry for 1-2 years. Whether as a clerk or a waitress or whatever.

[BlooInBloo]

20. The principal reason I strongly support mandatory natl service...

... is to break hick provincial bigoted Americans (the majority) out of their dogmatic idiocy, and realize there's a big world out there, full of critters who are actually *people*.

I'm completely down with offering a panoply of service offerings, beyond the military, which would satisfy the requirement. And free public college tuition would be the carrot, matching the stick of being mandatory.

[Renew Deal]

34. I agree

especially about the big world point. Isn't it like 16% of this country that has passports? That's pretty bad.

[roamer65]

25. No, not under this fascist regime.

[AndyTiedye]

26. NO!

If we give this regime more cannon fodder, they will start more wars.
The only reason they haven't invaded any more countries yet is
that they haven't got enough troops.

Not everybody is cut out to be a soldier.
But when there's a draft, there is the presumption that
everybody without an obvious handicap MUST be a soldier,
and if they can't do it, too bad for them.

A draft tends to militarize the entire country, and especially
the way children are raised. There is more tolerance of bullying
and less for diversity, more emphasis on obedience and discipline
and less on thinking for oneself.

Those who offer non-military (but still mandatory) alternatives
never seem to want to talk about what happens to the workers who
are doing that work now. Good union jobs being replaced by
sub-minimum-wage slave labor.

[Renew Deal]

35. Here's a list of countries with mandatory military service.

Half are peaceful. The other half have security concerns. Two of the biggest nations on the planet both have mandatory service. We do not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription#Countries_with_mandatory_military_service_.28partial_list.29
Source: Wikipedia

7.1 Austria
7.2 Belarus
7.3 Bermuda
7.4 Brazil
7.5 Bulgaria
7.6 Chile
7.7 China (PRC)
7.8 Croatia
7.9 Cyprus
7.10 Denmark
7.11 Egypt
7.12 Eritrea
7.13 Finland
7.14 Germany
7.15 Greece
7.16 Iran
7.17 Israel
7.18 Korea, South
7.19 Lebanon
7.20 Malaysia
7.21 Mexico
7.22 Norway
7.23 Poland
7.24 Romania
7.25 Russia
7.26 Serbia and Montenegro
7.27 Singapore
7.28 Sweden
7.29 Switzerland
7.30 Taiwan (ROC)
7.31 Turkey
7.32 Ukraine
7.33 Venezuela

[TahitiNut]

27. It seems about half here haven't yet been weaned.

The delusion that a nation can have a democracy without participation is probably part of the core dysfunction we have in our body politic. "Let George do it" doesn't work and you can't hire out the responsibilities of a democracy. It's a guaranteed way to lose it. (Sheesh!) About half the folks here seem to expect others to wipe their butts and cook their meals and do the dirty work. I guess they're just too good for the dirty work ... and it's so much more self-righteous to treat the people who do this as "lowser class" or, worse, sub-human war criminals. Can I hear the words "baby killers?"? (Yeah. I already have.)

"But I don't wanna do thaaat! is the often heard whine. Disgusting. Almost as disgusting as the falsehoods and myths that are peddled any time this comes up. Been there. Done that. Then I learned.

What part of "democracy isn't a spectator sport" isn't clear? No wonder we're thirty years into the sewer of fascism. No wonder we have the cabal of fascists in control of our government.

Let's just all sit back and make believe we'll be asked our opinion and it'll have any effect whatsoever.

Right. :puke:

[peacebaby3]

64. Wonderful post! I completely agree! n/t

[Mojambo]

30. I would not support mandatory service

But the opportunity to serve voluntarily (in a non-military capacity) should be much more available.

[Selatius]

32. I believe in community-run militias like the Swiss

I don't support our current model, which is more akin to the Prussian model of a military. If we had a Swiss-like citizen militia system, I wouldn't mind training and serving time in a community-run militia, but I don't think it's wise under our current structure. It'll have to be abolished and rebuilt from scratch.

[StellaBlue]

37. mandatory national service = forced servitude = slavery

No government has the right to force me to spend any of my time doing anything they select for me. Period.

LIVE FREE OR DIE.

[TahitiNut]

52. That's the cry of a kid told to clean up his own room or take out trash.

It's nonsense! The government is not and MUST not be "they" - it is and must be We The People. Performing service to self is NOT servitude - it's responsibility! The childish lament of "waaahh! I'm being enslaved!" is the sound of a spoiled adolescent abandoning the minimum responsibility of a democracy: participation.

The notion that one can hire out such basic tasks of a citizen in a democracy is the most certain path to autocracy. No fucking wonder we've got Junior in the WHite House!

[Selatius]

54. I would agree if we had a different system, but...

under our system, "we the people" count for very little. Since the end of the Second World War, the US has fought almost exclusively offensive, not defensive wars. I wouldn't argue it is performing service for self as much as it is service to the military industrial complex. The structure of national defense in this country lends itself too readily to this complex and its interests, and it is far easier to use the structure in an offensive capacity than a more decentralized system like the Swiss citizen militia system. That system does not lend itself easily to offensive roles at all. I would not mind changing the name of the DOD back into the "Department of War" because that is what it really is.

[StellaBlue]

58. We don't even have mandatory voting!

Neither you nor the government have the right to force me to do ANYTHING. Period.

[TahitiNut]

61. Really? Heard of taxes? Jury duty? Ever go through Customs?

Try telling that to a cop who says "Stop!"

:eyes:

[StellaBlue]

62. I don't necessarily agree with these other forms of forced service, either

;)

I can't believe how willing people are to die for elitist assholes. :eyes: I will go to jail first, gladly. They have no right to conscript me. If there aren't enough people who WANT to fight a war, then the war shouldn't be fought. For instance, there was a draft in WWII, but many, many people would've and did volunteer, because they felt the cause was just. That type of decision should be left up to the individual and his or her conscience. The government has no right to force me to kill people for its aims.

[T Town Jake]

40. The Generals & Admirals love it the way things are, actually:

...just like in the declining years of the Roman Empire, the top brass gets to focus on toys, instead of results. Give them a commander-in-chief like Chimpy McGigglenuts, and it's a win-win: billions on new weapons systems which will be in full-swing production even after they retire - which let's them get to go to work as civilian "consultants" for the companies making the systems they pushed for while in uniform and pad that military retirement with more bucks - while at the same time they get to dabble in the heady elixir of Washington's military Four Star power game.
What's not to love, from their point of view, with the status quo?
And as long as those Four Star spokesmen are listened to in front of the Congressional committees with no critical questions whose answer involves serious promotion consequences for dissembling, nothing will change: they get to churn out a pat answer for every objection to their current ways of doing things without being called on it, as their salad bars gleam in the lights.
Sad, but true.

[AndyTiedye]

44. Every Time A Democrat Supports the Draft, It Makes Karl Rove Smile

As has been repeatedly pointed out, a draft would be really unpopular.
But who will the people blame for it? If the draft has any Democratic
fingerprints on it at all, our party will be blamed for it! The Repub media
will make sure of that.

Then we would be in a truely horrible situation: Subject to arbitrary conscription
to fight an ever-increasing number of wars, our party in ruins as voters desert us
for causing their kids to be drafted, perhaps even martial law (which they would
have enough troops to enforce, with a draft).

[Hamlette]

46. We should have mandatory military service for everyone. . .

except my son. (Kidding...sort of).

If we had a draft, there would be no Iraq or, if Iraq had slipped by us, Bush would have been impeached by now. It's the same reason I'm against vouchers for schools. If only the disenfranchised serve (or go to public schools) you lose a huge voice from public discourse.

[B Calm]

47. I support lifetime tax relief for veterans...

[B Calm]

48. This would give the incentive for tax-angst republicans to enlist!!

[Vinca]

49. There needs to be something that puts chickenhawks

in the game. If chickenhawks had to get their hands dirty, we'd never go to war in the first place.

[genie_weenie]

50. Just what the War State needs

a mandatory, continuious supply of bodies...

[mmonk]

51. Not under current circumstances.

It's just not a good idea to serve under a rogue nation.

[lovuian]

55. When we have Nationalized Healthcare

then we will talk

[Book Lover]

57. Never, of any kind

My life is my own. I do not have hands so that I may labor at the forced bidding of others.

[StellaBlue]

63. thank you

I can't believe how nuts some posters seem to be on this point

:eyes:

[HughBeaumont]

66. Yeah, it's a funny thing about fishing . ..

. . . it never seems to work out so well for the bait.

What has militarism achieved besides a debt our great-grandkids are never going to pay? What has aggressive cowboy foreign policy given us besides bloodshed, dead & wounded American soldiers and a nation full of terrorist camps and dead women & children?

I'd rather use money to rebuild infrastructure, to strengthen our manufacturing and industrial sectors, our farms, our schools and to improve transportation. Helping people is more important than helping fascists.

[sweetheart]

59. yes i support mandatory miltiary service as defined:

"Service persons are required to vote in every election, and have no other
responsibilities, service continues from the age of 18 until death, no exceptions."

[pooja]

60. They are using depleted uranium in our weapons... which is such

a lie... they are still radioactive.. the armed services are killing our own troops... the nuclear war has already begun people. our soldiers are being killed by us. These 18yr olds don't even understand the dangers they are in from our own country.

[Seabiscuit]

65. The 14 people who voted to bring back the draft are obviously too

young to remember Vietnam.