On Poverty: I Have A Somalian Friend ...

[mntleo2]

On Poverty: I Have A Somalian Friend ...
...who explained to me what poverty really is. She grew up middle class in Somalia and has a college education. But she and her family wound up a victim of the war and genocide there. For many years she and her children lived hand to mouth until she got into a camp and was allowed to immigrate here. Living here, she contracted a bad type of TB from living on the streets and going into shelters, thanks to our crappy "safety net" and "superior" health care (yeah right). Some nights she coughs so bad she has interior wounds. She is a devout Catholic who converted from Islam, her cultural religion.

I cannot even imagine the hell she came from and as a new American, she is very happy to be here, but says that she would be better off in Somalia in poverty (though it is still very dangerous, she says our streets are not quite as dangerous ~ yet). All along since she has gotten here, Margaret works hard in jobs that don't honor her master’s degree she earned long ago, and she will work those McJobs to the day she dies.

That TB btw, is spreading all over the street population and it is resistant to drug therapy. Watch for it to come to your neighborhood soon if you do not get up and speak out for a healthcare system for all and that the homeless get more support.

As a poor person myself, Margaret and I have talked a great deal about poverty. When I tell her how many Americans believe the poorest here is better off than many other people in the world, she laughs it off and says poverty here in America is worse in many ways than poverty in her home country. She says poverty here is worse because the way we live forces people to do certain things in order to maintain a home and eat which entails a job and some way to pay for that home and maintain everything in it.

Margaret said that in Somalia if you are too poor to live in the city where you pay for rent, food and transportation, you simply go out into the forest and live off the land. This is not possible here. There is no "forest" for the indigent to go to in this modern world, it is all owned by someone, our government included. The poor would be chased off and imprisoned for even trying to set up a home, forage for food, or even cut down a tree to make shelter. In America in order to have a home, you HAVE to pay for it most commonly with a job whereas in other countries the poor “go out into the forest” at the very least, so to speak. To be able to keep working, all Americans need a home to bathe and eat from so you need to be clean and presentable. If there is no transportation we still need to find a way to our work, which for American poor who are forced to live far away from employment, it is often too far away to walk or bike.

The American poor are often poor because they have no family to support them with raising children, or do other work needed while the other is away working (like doing the laundry, cooking, etc), or share in the housing costs, while in other countries families support one another this way. For the working poor on the street they have to live in crowded group situations, and it is almost impossible to keep clean enough to avoid disease etc ~ as Margaret is living proof.

Margaret is my hero, I cannot tell you how much she has helped me to understand better about my own poverty as well as indigenous people all over the world.

So when someone tries to tell me how my little fixed income makes me so damn rich, I tell them about what Margaret said. It is not just her story I could tell, either. Her community is full of women who lived through the hell, rape, disease, dying children, murdered family members, and war where they miraculously survived. Yet, these women’s joy at being alive is a gift I wish everyone could notice because it is contagious. They add a rich, wonderful diversity to this country and their legacy will be the next wave of culture to influence America. They would all tell you poverty here is hell, just like it was in their own countries.

See, wherever we are whether in Somalia, a South American barrio, bending over in the hot sun in a rice paddy, the poor do not have much time to feel sorry for themselves. They are too damn busy scrambling until they drop, just to survive wherever they are. It ain't any different in America.

My 2 cents
Cat In Seattle

Note: I wrote this as a comment on another discussion. But Sapphire Blue suggested I post this as a post of its own. So here it is and I do hope that is helps people look at American poverty for what it is. It is no different and in many ways worse than it is in other parts of the world because of the way our society is set up.

[Cleita]

1. Years ago, here in America, anyone testing positive for

TB were quarantined or sent to go into a hospital or sanatorium until they came out cured. (It happened to an acquaintance of mine back in the sixties.) The result was that TB was wiped out in America until Ronald Reagan introduced homelessness to us.

This is serious and now it has become critical for us to get the homeless off the streets, and sufferers from TB and other similar diseases into health care facilities.

[skooooo]

2. I find this hard to believe...

..sorry, nothing personal. I'd be the first to say we need to improve the social net in the US. On the other hand, most any hospital would try to address medical needs. I'm sure others have other examples of how the poorest in America at least people in poverty have a better chance at least of getting real help.

[Warpy]

4. Actually, they don't

I found over the last three years that there is NO HELP out there for anyone who has fallen into poverty but still manages to squeak buy with a mortgage payment every month, who has savings over $1500.

Medicaid kicks in only for the DESTITUTE. Most people in shelters would qualify, but without a permanent address, they can't get the services.

That's some catch, that catch 22.

Please don't maintain that sense of security that someone will pick up your healthcare tab if you lose your job. Nobody will, and they'll take everything you own and garnish wages that are already too low for you to live on to get that bill paid.

The rules for Medicaid were written in the early sixties, and they were reasonably generous then. Inflation has assured that most people who qualifiy for services according to their purchasing power are too rich to qualify according to the dollar amounts set in stone 40 years ago.

[bobbolink]

38. Thanks to the budget cuts, NO NEW MEDICAID PATIENTS BEING

ACCEPTED.

I just had to patiently explain this to someone yesterday.

People can wait literally years before finding a dr who will take their medicaid.

AND-- you can't get emergency care without a dr's OK, so ..... if you can't talk some dr into accepting the medicaid, you're screwed.

This is why Sapphire Blue BEGGED people last year to call and write about the budget. Very few here were willing to be bothered. Now they think nothing happened. Well, guess what--their lack of interest has hurt many people.

Yes, it ticks me off.

[mntleo2]

9. I Am Not Making This Up ...

Homeless shelters have to ignore body-wracking coughs in the middle of the night. I work with the homeless. For instance: Last winter a woman was being housed in a shelter where they stack two people at a time in bunks, close together was coughing nightly, according to another woman staying in that shelter. She told me she could not sleep because of the other woman's constant coughing.

People are always coughing and hacking all night in those places. It was not until months later when "coincidentally" that woman made it into transitional housing and got healthcare that it was discovered she had the kind of TB I was mentioning. The shelter knew she was sick, but ignored it ~ not because they did not care but because it is prevalent out on the street now and when someone needs shelter and it is freezing, what are they going to do ~ send her away? The hospitals are already full or won't take the indigent, and the housing staff are *not* physicians so they cannot diagnose and turn away anybody nor would they want to. It is the choice of either turninhg that woman away to freeze to death on the street or exposing everyone in the shelter to whatever she has that she carries.

This TB is a dirty little secret the health system would rather people do not know about. I am not making this up, I have seen it time and time again.

Cat In Seattle

[bobbolink]

40. Thanks, Cat! HOmeless people get TB at a rate 11 times that of

non-homeless people!!

I've tried to bring that to people's attention here, but to no avail. I hope your posts get attention!

Thanks so very much!! I really cannot fathom why homelessness is not an issue among "progressives". Maybe it will have to hit "home" first, so to speak.

[elehhhhna]

12. baloney. You don't get a TB test free. You have to have symptoms

and then it's probably too late.

Believe what you like. That's your right, howeber, beliefs do not trump facts. EVER.

[Greyhound]

15. If you really believe this, you are simply not paying attention.

We have become a global disgrace. :think:

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Well having worked EMS on a border town

Ironically on the Mexican side of the border, I can tell you it is real. You have no idea how many AMERICAN poor ended up in our ER, because they would not be seen by an American Hospital... for chronic diseases.

Hell I had a wonderful time trying to get an elderly woman who was diabetic, care in the US... and when she died, we missed her monthly ER visits. There were other issues with her, but she was but one example.

We really would love for the poor to go away... and as to TB... started with the drug addict population, but has spread, like wildfire, on BOTH sides of the border.

[bobbolink]

48. Excellent point. Very sad, indeed.

I appreciate you posting this, it certainly illustrates the point.

What in the hell do we do to get people to wake up about this???

BTW, I'm sure the PTB are glad for the TB. It hastens the departures, yeah?

:mad:

This crap makes me so angry, but I'm really glad you posted it! :yourock:

And thanks for your service to poor folk. :applause:

[bobbolink]

37. Always someone who feels a need to post something to cast doubt

on poor folk.

And, yes, it's *PERSONAL* to those of us affected.

There've been many, many articles about how many thousands of people die in this country every year from lack of health care.

I'm sure you can find that info if you are willing to look.

I'll gladly trade places with you *ANY* time, if you think it's so great here.

[lonestarnot]

69. Guess you are so well off you never need to worry about homelessness?

Maybe you better rethink the possibilities unless you are Bill Gates or Warren Buffet or an individual similarly situated. When the masses of homeless ranks swell to numbers than can't be placed out of sight out of mind, maybe you will think about how you might be affected, but it shouldn't have to get to that point. This is America afterall.

[Warpy]

3. Thank you!

I've been struggling to get this point across for a very long time.

People who don't have enough income to live in safe housing, eat nutritious food (as opposed to starchy processed crap), get routine health care, and save a little extra for emergencies and eventual retirement are living in POVERTY, no matter what the government says, and no matter what they themselves think defines middle class or wealth.

Here in NM, some folks do try to live off the land. It's incredibly poor land, so they're lucky if they manage to eke out a living on rabbit stew without too much dumpster diving. There are colonias here that are as bad as anything I've seen in Juarez, and often worse than Juarez because they're so precarious. They can be ordered to vacate the land at any minute.

Too many people think that if a person has a TV and an Ipod and an old computer they can't possibly be poor. Most got these things before they fell into poverty and when they break, they won't be replaced. Real poverty is grinding, depressing, and incredibly boring as choices disappear.

I involuntarily researched real poverty over the last three years. I didn't like it.

There has to be a realization at the gut level of what actually constitutes poverty in this country. I've found it an uphill battle here at DU, as people who are poor don't particularly want to think of themselves as being poor.

[lumberjack_jeff]

7. The op has a good point

Poor in developing countries is in many ways a more tenable situation because their societies are not set up requiring a minimum level of income to survive.

Re; not wanting to self-identify as "poor", the reverse is also true. People with incomes in the top 5% also want to consider themselves middle income, not high income.

[mntleo2]

10. Yeah Poverty Is A Bitch

But I want to tell you, I think in many ways my life is richer for it even though it does not pay the rent. The reason is because I meet and grow to love, people like Margaret who are good people, struggling to make ends meet. Also since poverty takes few prisoners, I have met some of the most beautiful people I would never have known if I lived in the 'burbs in Whitey Land, lol.

I have also learned the deep and abiding wisdom about finding quality rather than position and looks in the people we come to know. Yes there is scum on the streets, but that is true everywhere ~ and a lot of them live in the richest part of town, I am sad to tell you. There are far more gorgeous and courageous hearts in the barrios, diamonds in the middle of gravel, IMO. Most upper income people could not hold a candle to their kindness, their giving and their ability to share. They will tell you they learnt this quality by going without themselves, by being the ones with their noses pressed to the window watching everyone else eat. You would think greed would prevail there for not having anything, but the opposite is actually the most common case.

Another thing I learned from the poor and Margaret was what matters in life and that you learn how to love in a more godly way when you are poor. She said living the upper income life was easier in one way because she did not have to scramble ~ but she never knew who truly loved her like she did when she became poor. Love is a big word, it is a tough word because we are only human and cannot love unconditionally. However, you can love a drug addict who is so desperate they would kill you for a fix, if you know they are bleeding inside like you are in other ways. This does not mean you embrace them as your best buddy, but that you share what you can even if you know they will use it for a fix because that is what Jesus would do as well. Why would Jesus do that? Because that person needs to know God loves them and they are worth whatever it is that can be shared ~ even if the sharer does not have much.

The last thing I learned is that crime, drugs and alcoholism is no different in the house on the hill, it is just hidden. You do not see police cruising around the mansion arresting people for looking oddly and making drug raids very often, but those things are there as they are in the barrio. There are two rules; for the rich and middle class and then there are the rules for the poor. The poor will go to jail and thus never have a chance at higher education, a decent job or for decent housing, but the rich will go to rehab and somebody in their family will help them with a decent job and an education ~ if even ever they get caught.

My 2 cents.

[BlueStorm]

62. I am a poor person myself...

And it is hard to survive on the meager earnings that I get. I am on SS and if it wasn't for my father I would probably be living in a shelter.

"However, you can love a drug addict who is so desperate they would kill you for a fix, if you know they are bleeding inside like you are in other ways. This does not mean you embrace them as your best buddy, but that you share what you can even if you know they will use it for a fix because that is what Jesus would do as well. Why would Jesus do that? Because that person needs to know God loves them and they are worth whatever it is that can be shared ~ even if the sharer does not have much."

Just the other day a homeless man had approached my car and asked for some money to get a bite to eat. I only had $5 and some change. I was hesitant to give the $5 away as I felt a bit selfish but something made me hand it over to the guy. I really felt bother because of my "conscience" or rather my Dad's tapes playing in my head about my money management. I told my mom and she told me that the man probably used it for alcohol or drugs and that she personally wouldn't have given money over, however she did say that it says somewhere in the Bible that Jesus would appear to you and ask for help as a means of testing you. I don't know about that but I did feel good about giving the man the money, though I don't have much myself. I believe in karma and I think I did good.

The poor are often overlooked, despised and cast aside, but I guess that is because most people in this country really believe that one must provide for oneself. But the poor are people too and I really wish that our politicians would make this an issue.

Blue

[Cleita]

25. The problem with us living off the land is that the wildlife is

also trying to live off the land and they are stressed already trying to survive. We have plenty of food and facilities to fix this problem. We have to get some good social laws in place to force those rich people to pay their fair share instead of keeping it all for themselves.

Here in California raising property taxes on second homes, vacation homes and people who maintain a home here from out of state or out of the country would go a long way in providing the health care services everyone needs.

As it is rich Arab shieks living in Beverly Hills only pay 1% in property taxes, not to mention that just about anyone who has money in the world has investments in property here. They need to be made to pay more property taxes for the privilege of being allowed to own property here.

Also, it's a sin that we have so many homeless, including working homeless in my county, yet it's full of vacation homes that go empty most of the year. These people should also be made to pay more than 1% a year in property taxes. This could help getting these people permanent shelter so they could use the services available that they can't reach with no address

[bobbolink]

49. Excellent ideas, Cleita! I'll gladly vote for you when you run for office

:)

It's clear that we are a most immoral nation.

What you have detailed is immoral to the max.

[bobbolink]

46. THanks, Warpy! I love NM, but the poverty is heartwrenching.

People who can't understand this simply don't want to.

It's willful ignorance.

I appreciate your words! :hi:

[lonestarnot]

70. Warpy the poorest among us give and share more than any other

group and "...people who are poor don't particularly want to think of themselves as being poor," maybe this is why.

[bobbolink]

98. You are so right! Almost without exception, those who reach out

are the ones with the least to give.

So much for "morality".

x(

[Kali]

5. Well I HAD to recommend this.

Less than 30% of people in this country hold a passport. We are utterly clueless about the rest of the world. Yet we boldly go to inflict "freedom and democracy" on whomever we choose.

Very good observation about the inability of the homeless to go live off the land - witness the regular sweeps of "cardboard camps" by cities and counties. (not that many in this culture would even be capable anyway, we've seen to that with the addiction and dependancy on corporate produced food - and everything else) The view is that poverty and homelessness is a crime, more than anything else. If you grow your own, build your own (especially with unconventional materials or techniques) or god forbid, do not worship at the alter of the TeeVee, you are suspect.

[Quakerfriend]

6. I'm glad you posted this, Cat.

Yes, this strain of TB is very dangerous. Little is said about it though. Having worked in Phila inner city healthcare system for years, and I can tell you it is a nightmare for immunologists.

With respect to comparing 'our poverty' vs. that in other 3rd world countries- Margaret is, of course, correct. I would add one thing that I have noticed when I have traveled throughout South America, and seen some of the poorest people in the world. The poor in the rest of the world still SMILE and LAUGH. Something that I do not see in places like North Philadelphia where some of our poorest try to eek out a living.

[acmejack]

8. I don't find it hard to believe at all.

You can't make a living anymore squatting in the country, can't be done. We have forced all the poor into the slums in the city. The drugs, the desperation, the crime, and the attitude of people who say "I just don't believe it"-oppressive poverty without any chance to escape-and it is treated as some sort of personal shortcoming. The land of opportunity, just not for everyone.

Good post Cat.

[yellerpup]

11. K&R!

Thanks for sharing this important story.

[Catherine Vincent]

13. Recommended!

What a great (and sad) story. Thanks.

[Bacchus39]

14. another difference between US poor vs. Somalia poor is

how fat the US "poor" are in comparison.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. I see you put "poor" in quotes, which shows that you don't

know much about nutrition. You seem to have bought the John Stossel lie that the American poor can't possibly be poor because so many of them are overweight.

Malnutrition (as opposed to starvation) can make you fat, because if you don't have cooking facilities (as many poor people don't, especially if they live in welfare hotels or by-the-week motels), all you can afford is fast food and junk food. Yes, raw veggies would be cheaper, but not if you don't have a place to wash and cook them. When Taco Bell and other fast food places offer a 99-cent menu of processed, salty, sugary, preservative-laden crap, ready cooked, that's what you'll eat.

Malnutrition leads to a craving for sweets. If you've ever volunteered at a feeding program for the poor, you've noticed how much sugar they dump into their tea and coffee and how they'll happily take two desserts.

Eating lots of sugar and starches will pile on the pounds for many people.

That's where your fat poor people come from.

[Bacchus39]

20. they certainly are not starving for sure

whether they are eating appropriately is another matter. but eating too many potato chips versus broccoli is not comparable to not having something to eat at all.

with total recognition that poverty exists in the US, I am not buying that the US poor are worse off than Somali poor. and I lived in Central America and have seen abject poverty.

and wasn't there a famine in Somalia a few years back where thousands upon thousands died?

[bobbolink]

44. Your ignorance and hate, yes hate, is ever so charming.

Walk a mile in the shoes, OK?

[Bacchus39]

91. sorry, poverty in the US is not like poverty

in the developing world. why don't you take a trip yourself to see?

[bobbolink]

94. Your assumptions are legion, and so is your hate.

You have no idea what I've seen or not seen, and I refuse to argue with ignorance and heartlessness.

Oh, and what are you "sorry" about?

Quit misusing that word. You're clearly not at all sorry for the crap you're dumping on poor folk.

bye now...

[Bacchus39]

95. who is arguing?

that impoverished people in Brazil or Somalia are worse off than poor in the US? what is there to argue?

[datasuspect]

108. take a trip to louisiana or rural east texas

sheesh.

[Bacchus39]

110. yeah us poor poor americans

ahhh to be poor in Haiti.

[datasuspect]

111. don't quite get the gist of what you are saying

but look around your own country, there are many parts that are very third worldish.

[Bluerthanblue]

21. THANK you, and

my own experience with refugees from West Africa underscores the difficulty many mothers have providing foods that they feel comfortable giving thier families.
Preparing foods in a manner that is in keeping with thier culture and palate takes quite a bit of time- MOST easily available, and less expensive ingredients are 'tainted' with preservitaves, and other chemicals that are particularly worrisome to the people I work with. Raw, pure foods are a rich persons luxury in America.
To eat WELL in the US (and by 'well' I'm saying foods which are not super processed, filled with known carcinogens and FRESH) cost BIG money.

There are many of us who can't afford to 'eat well'. Trying to eat healthy, within very restricted budgets and single parent rushing to the next event pressures, isn't easy. It is something we have to pay particular attention to, if we DON'T want to end up with weight problems. I have met several obese well to do people, but it is also interesting to see how many of them have solved thier struggle with food through gastric by-pass, personal trainers, liposuction and other costly venues.

There are MANY poor people who are not fat, and many rich people who are- But your observation is 100% correct. Being 'fat' is not a sign that someone is 'supernourished'- It is often a sign of very poor nutrition, and the stress of working several jobs, with little time to devote to 'home-making'.

Thanks for your great post-

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. I'm lucky, in that I'm single, with a reasonable income, and living near

a great food co-op. Lots of organic and locally produced foods.

However, most such co-ops are not in or near poor neighborhoods, and they sometimes have a "yuppy" flavor to them.

One of the exceptions was the New Haven Food Co-op in the 1970s, which was located equidistant from a number of ethnic neighborhoods and made efforts to appeal to all the groups, from having a kosher deli counter to sponsoring soul food cooking contests and giving classes on how to eat well on a low income by cooking from scratch. If your household sent one volunteer worker for four hours each month, you got a discount on groceries. I don't know if the Co-op is still extant or still as socially conscious.

ON EDIT: It doesn't seem to have a website, so it must have gone out of business. :-(

[mntleo2]

31. Sometimes Obesity = Poverty

Subject: Sometimes Obesity = Poverty

This is because eating on a tight budget means eating lots of starches and fats which do not fill you up as long as a balanced diet of good food. While we are lucky enough to get foodstamps if we are poor enough, that "priviledge" allows less than 1.19 per person per meal. For a family of four, that means a dinner cannot cost any more than 4.80. In order to stretch things so everyone leaves the table full is a challenge. Therefore a little hamburger, lots of pasta and bread is the best way to make sure everyone leaves the table satisfied. Lots of cereal, fatty (cheap) meats, sugar, canned vegetables and whatever else you can use to satiusfy hunger and stretch things are foods that ~ da da daaaaaah! make you fat.

Get it? The fattest state in the country is Mississippi, which da da dahhhhhh ~ is also the poorest. The thinnest state is Maryland which is - da da dahhhhhh - one of the richest. Can you now see that obesity is not because people are eating better than people in Somalia?

When I read your comment to Margaret she laughed and thought you might be a little bit ignorant and prejudiced. I am sure this is not the case, because there is a great deal of discrimination against the obese, but maybe I am wrong.

Cat In Seattle

[bobbolink]

50. You're excellent with the facts!

I'm so angry with willful ignorance that I can't even stand seeing that crap anymore.

Tell Margaret she hit the nail on the head with her "diagnosis" of that post. :hi: Here's to you, Margaret! :toast:

Also... being poor is extremely depressing, and sometimes people will binge in a downtime, or eat more sugar.

I've been homeless for almost a year now, and have gained weight. I can tell you it's not because I'm eating well or too much. Just trying to survive to the next day is about all that can be managed.

Thanks for telling it like it is!

[Bacchus39]

92. peas, rice and beans are very cheap

people in the developing world don't have that luxury. they don't have anything at all in many cases.

[datasuspect]

109. most of the developing world subsists mainly on rice

and various tubers, grains, and legumes.

peas, rice, and beans are NOT luxury items. they are staples and subsistence foods.

[AtLiberty]

17. I'm pretty amazed how how large Somalian families are here...

Our community sponsored several Somalian families several years ago. The families were already large with six or seven children each. They are living in three-bedroom apartments. Since then, each family has produced two more children and I noticed that both mamas look about six months pregnant. When both families are walking to school, it looks like they could fill a classroom.

The community does a pretty good job of helping these families, but it is discouraging when the babies keep coming.

The parents obviously feel well enough off to afford all these children, but I suspect their standards are different than mine.

Do they have so many children because back in Somalia, the death rate was higher? Is it a cultural or religious thing?

I feel sorry for the children. I often wonder how much better off they are here.

One thing I've noticed, they appear happy, friendly and loving.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

19. It's common among first-generation immigrants

People used to say the same thing about the Vietnamese.

The next generation invariably has fewer children.

[Bluerthanblue]

22. from my experience, it is also

due to the reality that many of the children would not live to adulthood, given the dangers of life, disease, and hunger that exist in thier home countries.

Look at the big families that many Americans had when we lived with as few support systems as the refugee families have had to cope with in thier lives.
Its sad, but its true.

I'm glad to see the large families. It means at least we are helping kids have a chance to grow up and have a chance of a future of thier own-

[mntleo2]

36. All Of The Above

... there is a very high infant mortality rate and having a large family means that there is a better chance you will have children to care for you in your old age. I am beginning to think that thinking is a good one for Americans as well since if we do not watch the Social Security thing we will need to be cared for by our children as well ~ many elderly already need and depend on their children for care now even WITH social security, but with the death of and mismanagement of work-based pensions it is most likely going to be a reality for the next couple generations as well until we re-begin the cycle that we refused to learn from in the 30's and 40's of the last century.

Cat In Seattle

[Bluerthanblue]

18. k&r and, I know

you speak the truth Cat-
I have a dear DEAR friend who is from Togo, via a Benin refugee camp. She, her husband and two small children have taught me so very much about many things. (even though my official introduction to them was as a teacher of English as a second language :crazy: )

She says "in America you have so much- Too much, but not enough of what you need to live here without sorrow". In her culture, children when they are grown, are entrusted with the care of thier elders. She's desperately seeking employment at Walmart or McDonalds (they don't require a GED) so that she can send some money back to the woman who raised her her-Grandmother- who is back in Togo and very ill. My sweet friend has a no certificates from her home country, and the US will not honor any of her, or her husbands certifications without the necessiary papers.- And believe me, todays testing is grueling for people who are non english/spanish speakers.

I've come to believe that 'civilization' is overated. If 'civilized' nations, the imperialistic France, England, Holland and others, had not interfered in the lives of the inhabitants of many smaller countries, there wouldn't be the AK47's in the hands of child soldiers, or hatred encouraged by 'covert operations' sent to manipulate vunerable governments to do the bidding of the "civilized world".

Thank you for posting your wonderful account of your friend, and what you have learned from her for us.

Peace and comfort,
blu

[QuestionAll...]

24. thanks for your post. There is poor...

and then there is poor in spirit.

both seem to abound in the so called rich countries.

[Iowa]

26. There is something about this post that doesn't quite ring right...

"She says poverty here is worse because the way we live forces people to do certain things in order to maintain a home and eat which entails a job... Margaret said that in Somalia if you are too poor to live in the city where you pay for rent, food and transportation, you simply go out into the forest and live off the land. This is not possible here."

This strikes me as both inconsistent, and not entirely true. Not entirely true in that survival here often doesn't entail a job. Example: People in the US who are unable to perform substantial gainful activity often receive SSDI/Medicare or SSI/Medicaid. And there are a number of work incentives associated with SSI - things like impairment related work expenses, PASS, etc. I'd certainly find it extremely difficult to live on SSI (currently only $603/month in my state). But if faced with a choice, SSI/Medicaid would be MUCH preferred to foraging in the wilderness for food - which actually sounds like very much like working in a very physically demanding job for nothing more than food (hence my reference to inconsistencies).

This comment: "...you simply go out into the forest and live off the land...", strikes me as a gross understatement. I don't think that would be simple. Let's include a detailed description of what it would be like to strap a few possessions onto our backs and go out into the wilderness and live off the land. No, I think I'd much rather take my chances here, with the insufficient and tattered safety net our country has to offer, as meager as it may be.

And also, let's not forget the food banks, food stamps, subsidized housing, Social Security retirement, Vocational Rehabilitation, Pell grants, Stafford loans, WIA, and the many, many government and private programs and organizations that exist to help all of us. There are many good programs that are helping people every day. Most, if not all, of these programs have limitations. Example: as Warpy said up-thread, Medicaid won't kick in until you are destitute (plus the existence of a total disability or some other basis for qualification). And with most programs, you can't usually just walk in the door and get help today - there are eligibility determination processes that take time. So it's a harrowing, gut-wrenching, anxiety-laden process. But let's not ignore the fact that more than 17% of ALL social security recipients are disabled workers, their spouses, and their children. And there are more than seven million people who receive SSI/Medicaid. Real people - every day. These are very successful programs that deserve our support. Minimizing their efficacy by putting forth the notion that recipients are worse off than those who are forced to live off the land in undeveloped countries may undermine support at a time when we have many in power who would love to destroy these programs. While the benefits are stingy, it strikes me as somewhat over the top to suggest that people living on fixed incomes with medical care in the US are worse off than Somalians living off the land. I'd have to see a lot more evidence to believe it.

So I don't buy into the notion that living off the land in undeveloped nations would typically provide a higher standard of living than a fixed income (such as SSI/SSDI) here. If given a choice between the two, I'd take the fixed income here in a heartbeat, and I suspect almost anyone would do likewise. I'd take my fixed income, live in a low-cost rural area, earn a few bucks under the table if I was able, and I'd probably network with others in similar circumstances to pool resources in a way that would improve life for each of us.

If I am misunderstanding the thesis of your post, I apologize, but I highly doubt that anyone with an ounce of sense would believe that someone receiving SSI/SSDI or whatever fixed income you're on is (as you say) "so damn rich". I do believe, however, that poverty exists on a kind of continuum - with countless things that must be factored in - so I would have no problem believing that there are huge numbers of people in the world who are more impoverished than I would be if I were forced to live off SSI/Medicaid/Subsidized housing (and any other source of assistance I could scrape together) in a low-cost rural area. That doesn't change the fact that I would still be living in poverty.

This is only loosely related to your post, but I have stated before that I cannot overestimate the importance of saving for those who have jobs that allow them to do so. I have met with countless people who find themselves suddenly unable to work, only to find that there is no immediate assistance available to pay the day-to-day bills. To anyone who reads this: If you are working at a job that allows you to do so, save enough to cover your basic living expenses for 12 months, minimum. There are excellent programs and services available for many things, but the system probably doesn't work like you think. It takes time you won't have before help will be available, and you probably won't qualify for all the things you may think you'll qualify for. So... spend less than you earn if you can. Live as if you'll either lose your job next week, or be stricken down by the frailties of the body and be unable to work - ever. It can happen to any of us.

[DollyM]

29. This strikes a a chord with me . . .

My husband and I are highly educated, both with Master's degrees but is only able to find part time work, teaching at a college. (I am currently self employed as a small business owner but am looking for a job that will give us some dependable income.) They hire most of their faculty as part time, in order to save money. Thus, we have no health insurance. As far as saving money, that's a laugh. Our savings were eaten up long ago on my husbands health care for his diabetes. We never get ahead because of his medical costs. My hubby is 53 and is really not in a good place in his life for us to pick up and move to find better work. And, I am not so sure it is any better any place else. It seems that most places do not want to hire people with upper level degrees because they know they can hire lower level and new graduates and lower wages and save money. We would be better off if we did not have an education, job wise. Around here, if you are a secretary, you can take your pick of jobs. I have decided that my next move will be to leave off my education level on my resume and see if I can at least find something that helps pay the bills.

[Iowa]

76. Hi DollyM. Yes, many simply cannot afford to save.

Sometimes it's just a struggle to get by - I have been there.

I have a daughter who is getting her PhD, and I hope she doesn't encounter what you're seeing. I have another daughter finishing up her BA and trying to decide whether to go on to graduate school. It's hard to know what to do in this climate. Sometimes I think she'd be better off not going into debt to get the masters. On the other hand, it has tended to pay off in the past. She'll have to make that call.

Perhaps things will improve in the job market as the result of some of us older boomers retiring - IF people are able to retire. It's tough to know what the future holds.

Anyway, I wish you and your husband well. We so desperately need universal health coverage.

[suziedemocrat]

112. Have you thought about substitute teaching?

Not all states require a degree in Education to substitute teach. And in some places there is such a shortage of math, special ed. and other teachers, they will hire you as a "real" teacher if you agree to take the necessary education classes in the next few years.

[mntleo2]

33. Average Of 2 Years To Get SSD ~ IF At All

Over 65% of applicants are turned down when they apply. If they appeal, it takes up to a years to get that to court. Over 50% of those are turned down. You can appeal again, but then the wait is again another year out to court. Many either give up or are dead by then. In the interim, what are you supposed to do? And Margaret is an immigrant, she was not eligible for those services. She is only eligible for housing subsidies. One of the "wonderful" things that Welfare DEformed brought us is that even legal immigrants get no help except housing.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[Iowa]

85. There is no safety net for people waiting for benefits...

...except unemployment, or workers comp for job related injuries, or a disability policy through work for those few in jobs that provide them. But other than that, we are completely on our own while grinding through the SSI/SSDI application process. People really need to know that. Many do not.

[bobbolink]

96. How many people die in that process?

And, how many "liberals" are concerned about that?

Obviously there are those who are just fine with that suffering and the deaths.

:grr:

[Bluerthanblue]

34. um....

have you ever in your life had to live on SSI- or TANF or any other 'government program'???-
I have. And i'll die rather than be reduced to that ever again. My oldest child is mature enough to be able to raise my youngest now, (the youngest being 13)- so it's not as crucial I be here any more.

I know exactly what the woman from Somalia is talking about- and she is absolutely correct. I know this because I discussed this same subject with a woman from Togo who I teach. In America, in rural NH where I live, having a vehicle is not a 'luxury' it is an absolute necessity. There is NO public transportation till you get to major cities, like Concord, and Manchester. And the CAT system in Concord has a limited schedule.- Imagine toting groceries for your family for a week, a baby, a toddler and a kindergardener on a city bus????? Think about that. Imagine having to get a bus to take your sick child to the hospital? If you, or your spouse have employment that is seasonal (which is true of MANY refugee families) there is a window of 3-5 months when there isn't any income. At those times you can qualify for Medicaid help, or food stamps, but as soon as you go back to your job, you lose your help. And filing for these programs takes HOURS, and is complicated paperwork that language barriers make even more difficult.

In America, we make people jump through hoops, and grovel, and feel ashamed to be 'needy'- I don't mean the actual social workers who deal with you directly, many if not most of them are kind, and helpful people who get just as frustrated by the red-tape and inflexible policies that they are forced to abide by.

In Somalia, you have an option is what this woman is saying- You don't have the government saying "why did you take your child out of school"- or telling you they will take your children away because you have lost your home- Driving you to the 'county line' because you are a 'vagrant'-

The concept of 'possessions' and what is necessiary to survival is quite different here, versus many of Africa's impoverished nations. I understand what this woman is saying far better than I can articulate it, but to TRULY understand it, you'd have to have been at the mercy of today's social systems here in the US, and know what 'survival' is really all about.

It's amazing how being reduced to almost nothing- makes very little seem like abundance. It's also amazing how the struggle to find food and shelter for the present moment, becomes all important, and things that people in the US have been 'taught'- 'sold'- or brainwashed to believe are 'essentials' or pretty near such, really aren't- They are if your concept of living is not always feeling like castaways, but as far as life and death, they aren't.


sorry to rant, and that I can't say this more coherently-
peace-

[bobbolink]

52. Thank you for your "rant" -- which it's not, just the honest truth

I respect you for being willing to write the truth, after a post that is so disrespectful of poor people.

I'm very sad at your comment that you are no longer needed, and wouldn't ever go through that again. It makes me very sad, because you don't deserve to have to feel that way. But, I understand fully what you mean.

Maybe if a few more ignorant muddleclass people had to experience all this crap, there would be some return to compassion.

Do you suppose?

I don't know what else will get rid of this kind of ugly discriminatory talk.

Reagan sure carries a lot of weight here....

[lonestarnot]

71. I see no response from Question All

I could have answered that question before you asked. LOL

[Iowa]

83. Hi Bluerthanblue...

Thanks for the reply. I think everything you are saying is on the mark. And I agree with all of it except the part about living off the land in Somalia being a better option than a typical benefit here. The OP's friend states that people there either work and pay for life in the city - or forage for food in the wilderness. I wouldn't see the wilderness option as better than living on a fixed income like SSI/Medicaid - I'd see it as far worse. I wouldn't want it for my adult children, for myself, or for any loved one. Just one example... how is a person who is too disabled to work supposed to live off the land?

Let me put it another way. If repukes proposed tomorrow that they were eliminating SSI, SSDI, Medicaid, Medicare, SS Retirement, housing subsidies, and all the other programs the people pay for and depend upon - and they were going to replace it with a program that would open up a huge wilderness area where people could go and live off the land - I'd think it was an outrage. And I suspect the outcry on DU would be significant, and correctly so.

It is my impression that the OP is well-meaning but overreaches to make a point. I leave open the possibility that I could be wrong about this, but I'd need to have a great deal more evidence to buy into the premise of the OP. Furthermore, I'm concerned that the OP understates the efficacy of Democratic New Deal/Great Society programs - treating them as if they are so deeply flawed as to be virtually meaningless. Maybe they are for some, but they are a lifeline for many, and I'd fight to keep them. I'd like to see those programs expanded and improved to address their shortcomings.

Everything you say about the daily grind of living in poverty in the US strikes me as spot on. And it certainly wasn't a rant! Your honesty and integrity is evident in your post.

[suziedemocrat]

88. I think the point of the OP post is that there are more "must haves" here.

I worked with a guy from India who said the same thing. That is is easier being poor in India. I've never been, so I can only go by what he said. He said here to have even a low paying job you need a car, and car insurance. He said in India, you walk out onto the street and there will be people sitting there and you can give them small change to get you a newspaper or fetch your lunch or whatever. He was actually complaining about the lack of these "errand boys" here in the US and said no one could afford to live off small change they get for doing errands. So, maybe he was not the most compassionate person, but what he says kind of agrees with the woman from Somalia.

[bobbolink]

51. Another one who chooses to dis poor folk! Two, yes two, in one thread!

How lucky we are today.

Do your homework about your facts, and get back to us.

[Leopolds Ghost]

67. Our Social Safety Net is Extensive. Why, it was positively excessive

Until Clinton partnered with the Republicans to reverse some of the excesses of the 1960s.

:sarcasm:

As it happens, I think US poverty programs are invariably administered in such a way as to be actively injurious to the interests of the poor, because local governments invariably answer only to the landowning class. We have never been such an oligarchy.

I live in one of the top 10 most liberal small towns in America (according to a statistical study), who once elected a socialist/communist as mayor, whose first task was to get rid of all the rental housing in the city. Why? Because "everyone should have the same rights as homeowners", of course. And the current mayor declared that property owners "had more of a stake" in how the city is run because they paid taxes and were less "transient".

[mntleo2]

81. Yeah. Like Paying Rent Does *Not* Include Taxes, LOL

...this is one of the "hidden" taxes I talk about when I speak to renters about what the poor actually pay in taxes ~ which btw, is far more of a percentage of their incomes than upper income people pay. When property taxes go up, so does the rent, this is a given and if any office holder says that it is imperative for people to point out to this numbnut that renters are also contributing.

But I know what you mean, it is elitists like this who think that the moneyed are the *only* ones worth considering ~ which I suspect is less about taxes paid and more about what they will get in campaign contributions :sarcasm:

Cat

[bobbolink]

97. Great point! Would you be willing to go through those "hidden"

taxes here?

I could learn something, and it would be helpful with some of the things I've been working on.

Thanks so much! :yourock:

[mntleo2]

115. Sure

In my state of WA, we are a regressive tax state, so this is somewhat different than many other states who have an income tax. Regressive taxes means that the state depends on mostly sales taxes for their revenue. So here, the Seattle Council of Churches has put together a Tax Fairness workshop and I attended it. While most of their workshop is about the state taxing, which here is VERY unfair because sales tax is over 65% of WA's income, with property taxes taking another 15%, and the B&O taxes pretty much taking in the rest, it is not hard to see that the poor pay a great deal more of their income in taxes because ALL of those taxes affect sales and the cost of living, including rent. WA State does not tax food or pharmaceuticals, which helps, but they do tax pretty much everything else, including toilet paper, lol.

As for nationally, the Income and Social Security taxes depend on almost 20% of its income paid by the poor, gathering over 60% of their revenue in income taxes alone. Business pays less than 8% into the pot, and the rich even less ~ especially nowadays.

Here is the link to the WA State Tax Fairness people: http://wataxfairness.org. It has a page of resources and there you will find some national numbers as well. If more people around the nation had workshops like these it would awaken the poor as to how much they contribute. No longer could they abide the assumption that the poor do not pay taxes. Like hell they don't!

Cat

[bobbolink]

93. I'm sure glad you put up that "sarcasm" smilie, cuz what you said is said

by many "liberals" and "progressives" here. I just replied to another post that I don't understand what the heck a "leftist fringe", which the DLCers here through around, is supposed to mean. In Europe I'd be considered a moderate or centrist.

Your story about the mayor is .... what word to use... that is really amazing. With your permission, I"d like to share this with others, as it is really off the wall, but I know that's how many see it. My first reaction to your story is amazement bordering on disbelief, and my second reaction is fear, because I know what this is coming to, and there are already enough deaths.

Sing along with me... "How many deaths will it take til they know that too many people have died..?"

Your post illustrates beautifully what I've been trying to get across... this whole mess isn't just the Republicans-- this is also the "liberal" mess, too.

People here don't want to see that. You have said it perfectly, and I hope many have their eyes opened by your story! :yourock:

Thanks for your reply! :hi:

[KnaveRupe]

87. Actually, the hunter-gatherer lifestyle

was the original lifestyle of leisure. Thom Hartmann makes the case in some of his books that early hunter-gatherers had it pretty well, working 2-3 hours a day with the occasional 2-week hunting trip.

Compare that to the rat-race we live today, and I can see that there were benefits.

[maxsolomon]

27. i have never seen a homeless somali woman in seattle

and i have seen almost every type of homeless person that there is in this town.

when your friend says she holds an advanced degree, but lived 'on the streets', i have to doubt it. the Seattle Housing Authority provides many many links for the tight knit somali community. there are housing opportunities for women & for families that simply don't exist for the stereotypical transient male homeless.

unless she is one of the 2 'muslim'-styled women that lived in a highly-customized POS station wagon around town about 5 years ago.

[mntleo2]

32. Check Out LIHI ~ You Will Find

...lots of Margarets there. Margaret WAS homeless and just because you did not see them does not mean they are not here. But then many people ignore the homeless and do not have any idea as to what they are seeing when they do look, lol. I met Margaret in transitional housing at Sandpoint to be specific in order to help you realize I am not making anything up. I volunteer with homeless groups and what I tell is 100% true. Check it out.

Cat In Seattle

[maxsolomon]

41. i live about 5 blocks from that housing

i've seen plenty of somali women there. nice digs. the somali community, from my observations in community workshops, is pretty tightly knit, if conservative, and to my atheist eyes, oppressive for women. maybe for devout catholic converts from islam (aka apostates) not so much?

overall, there aren't many people who work or live in downtown seattle that can ignore the homeless. certainly, i am not one of them. i talk to them every day.

did you know that at a design meeting for magnuson park my wife & i suggested removing the fence along sand point way & other people there said 1. that it keeps the homeless in & 2. it stops cars rolling down 70th? funny if it weren't sad.

[mntleo2]

60. Yeah The Somali Homeless Do Not Go Downtown

... and Margaret's children did not come with her to America, they are still in Somalia. So she is somewhat in a different situation than many of her countrywomen that live there. Many of the women here are second wives, discarded for economic reasons or rejected by their husbands and therefore relegated to the refugee camps. So they come here without husbands and with their children ~ sometimes also children of the 1rst wife as well that they call theirs because they have cared for them since birth and they are not first born sons. They will tell you they are MUCH happier here without the husband than there with some lazy man, lol.

Yeah I heard about that fence thing. Lots of the upper income people are nervous about the poor living so close to them. It is funny because the older men in Santos Place look out for the often very naiive Somalian teens who live there. They continually keep vigil and chase off one guy whose father is some big surgeon at U Hospital. This selfish and spoiled SOB would flatter the boys and get them to run pot for him. He came around in his fancy Mercedes and acts real friendly to seduce them into doing what he wanted. Then THEY were the ones who got into trouble if they got caught, not him. The "uncles" would look out for the guy and chase him off if they saw him. One of my 1rst times there, they pointed the kid out and told me that rich young man was not to be trusted and they were right. He makes his "pin money" this way and Daddy protects him because he does not want to look bad. The kid may be rich but he is scum and a bastard IMO.

So who should these neighbors be more nervous of ~ that rich kid or the American and Somali low income teens? But you could never convince the them or the police of that. They ticketed one of my favorite teens, Abdi, a very earnest young man whom I tutored. He did the terrible ...while crossing the street, he went diagonal from the crosswalk to get to his brother ~ while about 50 feet away that rich kid I was speaking of was trying to get Abdi's brother to come with him for some "fun". Abdi's younger brother is very enamored with this rich kid, a white rich boy who flatters him by being friendly when most American kids do not have time for a young Somali boy. And the police? Well they just did not understand what Abdi was trying to do ~ save his brother ~ and Abdi got the ticket. I do not think they would have believed Abdi anyway. After all he is young, black and teen. Little do they know how Abdi works at night to help his mother, goes off and prays toward Mecca 4 times a day and after only learning English three years ago, is an A student at Roosevelt High. I am proud to say I helped him get a scholarship from Microsoft so he could go to college. He will go a long way if they leave him alone.

Sheesh

Cat In Seattle

[Leopolds Ghost]

66. The "stereotypical transient male" "Muslim-styled... in a POS vehicle"

What is this, hard-boiled detective week or something? Show some compassion. It's the responsibility of the OP to make sure they are not being misled by a scam artist, not you.

I love all the "Democrats" (the vast majority in the DC area) who have no compassion for poor people at all, just cynical disdain. Or if they have compassion they are embarrased to show it because nothing in their culture allows them to -- organized religion having been co-opted by conservatives, and unions and other anti-poverty organizations having been marginalized by real estate interests. They think they outgrew that compassion stuff when they became adults and abandoned "idealism". Now they are slaves to the will of big business, whjich wants to close schools and demolish public housing. There are plenty of so-called "liberals" who will go with the program so long as THEIR rights are protected (property values, privacy, etc.)

[lonestarnot]

72. blah blah blah. You expect us to believe that you know every

single freak'n homeless person in Seattle? :rofl: crack me the fuck up!

[Sapphire Blue]

28. mntleo2, thank you so much for posting this, and thanks to Margaret, too!

I hope that some eyes are opening... and I hope that more may understand.

K & R

:hug: to you & :hug: to Margaret!

[bobbolink]

35. Thank you so very much for this! I appreciate the support, and

telling people in no uncertain terms that poverty in the US isn't a picnic compared to other countries!!

I hear that so much, and it gets so very old. People here are DYING in poverty, and hearing that it's worse somewhere else doesn't bring them back to life!

Please give Margaret a hug for me, and I wish I could meet her. I'm sorry that she is suffering so much, after working so hard to have a decent life. She clearly has real integrity, and a heart for others.

I will be thinking of her, and you, and hoping that things do manage to get better for her!

Thanks again! :pals: for both of you!

[mntleo2]

45. She Saw This And Says,

..."You are most welcome!"

What always got me is yeah maybe 500.00 a month goes far in someplace like Peru, but this is here *NOT* your damn Peru. And 500.00 in America doesn't even pay the rent for a studio much less feed everyone. I think when American poor are dismissed with "Oh you would be s rich in (fill in the blank/country)..." This is a way of pretending that the suffering is not REALLY there and thus easier to ignore. The cost of living is relative depending on where you live. And you can bet your sweet bippy you will not be able to go to Peru and spend your 500.00 because you could never afford to get there to it. And even if you miraculously got there, you would no longer HAVE that 500.00 a month to live on because you are not a resident of the US ~ well you see what I mean ~ but it is almost funny how so many intelligent people have never thought that one out very far.

Cat In Seattle

[sweetheart]

39. Yes america has criminalized poverty...

... and commons for the poor ended in the english enclosure acts centuries ago, before the
US was born, with the principal of enclosure already prescient.

[Jcrowley]

43. Lessons from Katrina

Muriel Gray argues that the lessons of hurricane Katrina and its terrible aftermath are not about disaster management but about exposing the falsehoods at the very heart of modern America.

<snip>

So what are those lessons to be learned from a destroyed city with thousands dead, little or no relief for survivors, and lawlessness taking over from wind and water as the greatest threat to life? Not very nice lessons unfortunately. As the bodies of the poor, black, disenfranchised southerners bob to the surface of the rat-infested and sewage-infused waters, we’re reminded that America’s position as a big, safe, morally decent democracy with opportunity for all is one of the world’s biggest lies. The American dream that is being held up as the cause worth dying for in the Middle East is as rotten to the core as its demonic administration.

When Bush is temporarily propped up on two legs by his people, out of his natural position on all fours with knuckles resting gently on the White House carpet, to tell the world that his country’s values and people are worth fighting for, he omits to mention that he doesn’t mean poor people or black people. Not only is this huge slice of the American public kept largely invisible, in case it ruins the image of the culture which Bush’s administration demands countries in “the axis of terrorr” adopt, but even when such poverty is exposed to the world the US elite has little shame in publicly holding these stricken citizens in contempt.

<snip>

http://www.sundayherald.com/51627

And I read this somewhere:
They've virtualized the old physical feudal system
of grants and tax levys, hiring private thugs to enforce the new private baronies.

[bobbolink]

47. But, who is *listening* to those lessons? Sure ain't Dems and "liberals"

Katrina is over and forgotten, for most people, and I'm not only talking about republicans. I'm around plenty of Dems, and I can tell you, they simply don't want to hear about poverty.

As for Katrina being so easily forgotten... is it because those who were worst hurt, were, as your article states, "As the bodies of the poor, black, disenfranchised southerners bob to the surface of the rat-infested and sewage-infused waters, we’re reminded that America’s position as a big, safe, morally decent democracy with opportunity for all is one of the world’s biggest lies."

Because they are black and brown people?

Is that it?

I kinda doubt it, at least in total, because I'm lily-white, and can tell you that I sure don't experience a lot of compassion from white liberals.

This country is rotten, is right. But the stench isn't just from the RW.

[sweetheart]

56. Land reform

I think a democratic president should run with a platform of 10 acres for every citizen.
This land grant would be in adition to .5 an acre granted for a construction. The other
10 acres is held by the citizen in the public trust, in that it is your ground to manage,
even if management is to enable wilderspaces, take down fences and to cart away pollution.

The people have lost the link with the land, 'give' it back to them and win.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbolink]

61. I'm no longer a "willing participant" in blaming myself...

but as you can see from some of the replies here at DU, there are plenty of people, including "liberals" and "progressives" who are only too happy to slap down someone who has given up that willing participation.

As for your belief about why the blind eye towards poverty -- I am not happy to say this, but I've come to the hard conclusion that it will be for the best if many of these self-satisfied judgementals end up walking in the shoes themselves.

It's sad that it comes to that. That we are so pathological as a nation that we can't have compassion until/unless we feel the pinch ourselves.

That's really sick.

[sweetheart]

58. I read something very similar

recently... ! ! spark hmmm.. aahh! The enclosure
is much related, ironically, to the state of the disenfranchisement,
and its meta realization as a similar repeated narrative of humankind,
not some exceptional evolution beyond, a tragic collapse in to our animus,
from the dizzying heights of art, all in seven eleven, 24 hours of whatever
drugs you fancy and just walk away, from the crubling towers decaying.

[lonestarnot]

73. Damn straight America has criminalized poverty!

[Jcrowley]

42. Excellent Post

Poverty creates hunger and disease and excess wealth is one of the great creators of abject poverty.

More than 850 million chronically hungry people live in the world today – most of them women and children. On average, 10 million die every year of hunger – more than tuberculosis, malaria and HIV/AIDS combined.

K&R

[bobbolink]

54. And if you're homeless, you can't help but be hungry and ill, both.

Somehow "hunger" has gotten attention, but homelessness has not.

:shrug:

[lonestarnot]

74. bobbolink, have you contacted habitat for humanity?

[bobbolink]

100. For what??? They don't serve homeless people, they don't serve

those with a severely limited income (like disability), and they don't serve those who physically can't put in 500 hours of labor.

[treestar]

53. That is an interesting thought about living off the land

Since it is not possible, the rethugs are not really fair when they judge the unemployed as people not willing to work. Whoever wants things organized so much could cut a break to those who can't fit into the organized system, rather than make it all or nothing. They raise the bottom rung of the ladder very high and then blame people who can't get onto it.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kineneb]

64. never mind bootstraps

how about just having warm, dry socks? For some folks, that is a big thing.

[Solly Mack]

86. :)

I couldn't have said it better

[lonestarnot]

75. More criminalization of homelessness and poverty.

[bobbolink]

55. Question for Margaret:

What could/should this country do to end homelessness, hunger and ill health?

What should be done that hasn't been attempted?

How do we get more compassion into our society?

From your different perspective, I'd love to hear your ideas.

:hi:

[lonestarnot]

77. I'm not Margaret, but I'll throw down.

Education is key. Sorry George Carlin. Maybe not overdo it as suggested up thread by hiding these credentials once you obtain them. I know of a woman who slept on the school stairwells to get hers. She never fucking gave up until she got it. Beg borrow steal (perhaps not steal) to get it. Take out student loans. You always have to pay them back, but they can never take your education away from you once you get it. If you have to start out with the GED program, do that! If you have high school, get to college no matter the suffering it takes to stick in there. Illnesses can be treated on University campuses. If it is a case of TB, they will help you find assistance for drugs. Have you tried that and if not why not? If it's a climate issue hitchhike to a warmer one. You have to scratch, scrape and bite your way through the endurance course. Please tell me if you see something I don't. I don't mean to sound harsh. I posted this earlier in case you missed it have a look. In the end it doesn't matter. We are all screwed on this planet, even the very elite among us, they just don't know it yet. Carlin is right, democracy is a thing of the past. http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=935607276

[hfojvt]

106. education is a personal solution, not a social one

It is the system which creates poverty. Some people will be poor - generally those with less education. So getting education eliminates your personal poverty in the system, but is completely incapable of eliminating poverty unless it changes the system. It just gives you educated poor people.

But all of this thread does not distinguish between absolute poverty and relative poverty. Most of the time when we think of the poor, we think of the "relatively" poor, say those with income under $15,000. They are a much larger group than the "absolutely" poor, those with income under $1000. The relative poor have it much better than the absolute poor, and I am guessing that our country has a much smaller percentage of absolute poor.

[mntleo2]

78. Answer: "Stop The War For One ..."

Margaret says that with 300 BILLION dollars going for killing people and for enriching a bunch of already rich guys, this would be a start ~ but we all know that, don't we? The other day we were listening to Tom Hartmann talk about what 300 billion dollars would buy. It would house over 1 and 1/2 million people, it would give a four year education to over 4 million people, it would ...well we all know what it COULD go for.

She also thinks the poor should get out in a block and VOTE, VOTE, VOTE! I agree with Margaret, I am an active voter and always have been (had a Swedish grandfather who taught me about the precious right to vote and how important it was to act upon itso I and have not missed many elections even the local ones since I was 18). I am aware my vote is not only for me but for people like Margaret who can't vote (yet ~ but she will be able to soon). Now I am going to vote in the primaries tomorrow and put in my 2 cents for people who will not only get those scumbags out of office, but maybe even PROSECUTE them so those heartless war criminals spend time in one of those wonderful corporate prisons who like to use slave labor for drug addicts, they were so busy building.

Many of them won't win, but if more poor get out and vote we CAN have a voice, once we realize that if we vote as a block we can make a difference, like the people did in Venezuela. They set their elections on its head and now they have power because they acted as one. I know about the rigged machine, etc. but I believe as Hartmann says, those rigged machines can be overcome if so many people vote the other way it becomes evident something is awry.

My 2 Cents

Cat In Seattle

[bobbolink]

101. You got my hot-button issue. What do we do in the meantime, just

let people die?????

Yes, of course, it's a colossal waste of money. But this is ALL I hear from "liberals"-- like stopping the war is magically going to save the lives of poor folk.

HAH! Even if the war stopped tomorrow, that money wouldn't magically appear to help poor folk, UNLESS ALL OF YOU DEMANDED IT!! And that clearly won't happen, given how few here were willing to write and call on behalf of the budget a few months ago.

As for voting, I can tell you that I have been not only voting since I was of age, but working my tail off in politics, even giving waaaay more time and energy than I could afford to Kerry, who I didn't even agree with.

Yet, what I got from the "liberals" on that campaign (and also Kucinich's) was that my needs don't matter--it's not nearly as important that I have what it takes to stay alive as it is important for gays to be able to marry, and the environment, etc. IN other words, voting has now become NOT in my own best interest, because it's poverty is NOT a priority with Dems. John Edwards is the only one who still gives a rip, and he is only talking about the "working poor". Those of us who can no longer work, can just take a hike.

So, why should poor folk vote???? People here love to laugh at muddle class people who vote against their own interest, so why would poor people vote when their interest isn't of interest to the Dems?

[wickerwoman]

84. In my mind, urban planning is the magic bullet.

It is simply unacceptable that people cannot afford apartments within walking/bicycling distance of their jobs. Especially when so much office space is empty. It is unacceptable that buses run only once an hour and not after 9pm in many places. It is unacceptable that people need to walk more than forty minutes to get to a "ghetto" supermarket with rotten produce and rat and roach tracks in the dust on their groceries.

America needs to get serious about subsidized low income housing and public transportation. It is absolutely shameful that a Chinese person making a dollar a day can live more comfortably than an American making $5 an hour. How do they do it? The Chinese person doesn't have to pay rent. They got their apartment for free when the government privitized property ownership. Even if they didn't get an apartment, they can rent a room really cheaply and most low-income employers provide housing for their employees. Minimum wage workers in China have one (and often two) meals a day provided by their employers. Chinese buses and subways run every ten minutes and cover pretty much every square block of most cities and pretty much no urban Chinese person lives more than a ten minute walk from a market.

It boils down to Chinese cities being designed for humans and American cities being designed for profit.

[bobbolink]

102. I certainly agree with you about subsidized housing -- why isn't

this of concern to the Dems, and why are you the only one bringing this uP?

That definitely isn't a slam to you in any way... I'm really frustrated that even "progressives" just don't get it!!

A few years ago, I know that HUD had been cut 63% in 25 years!!! No wonder there aren't places for homeless people to live, and that Katrina people were fighting other homeless people for a place to call home. This is utter nonsense! Why isn't there an outcry here on DU about this???

But, we can't wait for "urban" planning, and letting people die in the meantime.

There has to be a change of direction toward poverty NOW.

[kineneb]

63. the poverty of the disabled in the US

I write from personal knowledge. Hubby is on dialysis, and I am his caregiver. As such, I have no official income, nor could I keep even a part-time job, as he requires frequent medical appointments.

The current system for the disabled drives them into poverty to get medical care and then insures they will stay poor. To qualify for medical care under California's plan for the medically indigent (CMSP), I have a $250 "share-of-cost", which drops our income (SSDI) down to $950/month. Out of this we are supposed to be able to pay our bills, eat and afford the transportation needed to get Hubby to all of his doctors; one of which is 50 miles away (a 75 min. drive through the hills). This, as mentioned, assumes nothing breaks or needs replacing, and that clothing that fits can be found free or at thrift stores. The last time the allotment for living was adjusted was in 1997. So we are expected to live on almost nothing.

So I don't want anyone telling me how wonderful the system is...it sucks. Once you are in the System, yes, you can get some health care, but you are never allowed to "better" yourself financially. In fact, you are discouraged from doing so, as to increase your income means losing the services that keep you alive.

If you are not poor to start with, you soon will be. Medi-Cal allows only $3000 cash assets, and no more than $1437 income monthly from all sources (amounts are for a couple with one or both being disabled). CMSP allows an adult couple $934 income as "Maintenance Need". So Hubby's $1200/month gets reduces to $950 if I need medical care. What this really means is: if you are under 65 and need medical coverage, don't bother working for more than that "Maintenance Need", because it winds up going out in medical expenses, anyway. This guarantees the recipients will be poor and get poorer, as living expenses increase and the M.N. stays the same.


Here are the eligibility requirements for a couple with one or both being disabled:
Personal property limit: $3000 (all cash assets including retirement accounts, life insurance, checking and savings- in other words, don't bother saving anything)
Motor vehicle limit: "One car if used for transportation is exempt, regardless of value."
nah- I'm going to use it for an effing flower planter :sarcasm:
Real property limit: Home exempt. Other real property with net market value of $6000 or less providing property is producing income consistent with its value."
Need standard: $1437 for a couple.

[Leopolds Ghost]

65. kick n/t

[lonestarnot]

68. Damn... what a post! Fanfreakingtastic look at poverty!

Firsthand knowledge is the most impressive look. You need to write a book! Margaret sounds like a special woman. I am going back up thread here and read everything. I guess you are gone for the day. I hope you are in a comfortable place for the night. I am praying for you and Margaret. Peace Cat.

[NurseLefty]

79. Great Post! About this thread, TB, poverty, etc. --

I wish I could add a long post but just read this before I have to get ready for work (work the night shift at a local hospital)...

THANK YOU for your post and responses in this thread. Your observations about the situations with Margaret and others in our community are descriptive and in my view, very believeable.

About the situation with TB - I am a nurse and know that here in Seattle, TB is an under-treated BIG problem (other US cities, too). Just so people know, when a person has the disease in the infectious stage, when they are hospitalized they MUST be in a reverse air flow patient room, in special isolation. The number of these type of rooms in most hospitals is very limited, and need I say, very expensive. So, yes, it is a challenge to admit someone in the ER. Unless the someone has developed serious complications a person can be treated at home, with medications (they have to stay on the medications for months, BTW). As I said, AT HOME, something Margaret did not have.
I recall listening to a talk by a public health official who admitted that there are simply not enough resources to test all the symptomatic people who live in shelters, so there will be people who will get TB who could be easily treated in the early stage, but instead languish until they get worse and infect many along the way. Safety net here? Uh, no.
As for the guy who lives in Seattle, five blocks from Sand Point (posh neighborhood, must be nice for you) - whose side are you on anyway? You're sounding a bit freepish, to me, frankly.
Off to work...

[bobbolink]

103. Thank you so much! I"m saving your post, to try to educate those

who think they know so much, and haven't a clue about reality.

All I can say is, where were all these people who think there are so many health resources, when Sapphire Blue was trying to get people to call and write about the budget a few months ago????

Her posts for action got very few replies. As a result, the vote was lost by ONE senate vote and TWO house votes. See what "liberals" could do if they would???

As a result of those lost votes, the budget "passed" (Conyers would argue that), and BILLIONS was cut from Medicaid! Yes, folks, what you thought existed has been cut beyond the bone.

Maybe the next budget vote, when they're voting for more health care cuts AND housing cuts, will now get your attention???!!!

[calimary]

80. All the more reason why we need HEALTH CARE FOR ALL!!!

Good Lord, when are we gonna get that as a nation. The poor in this country have enough to worry about. At least health care shouldn't be another of their burdens. Not for them. Not for ANYBODY, frankly.

[mntleo2]

82. And Perhaps It Would Curb The Spread of Diseases Like TB

As the nurse above you has said, it is not something we would like to see in the general population ~ but it is contagious and it is out there roaming around unchecked, thanks to the way our health care system is set up.

I remember my grandparents talking about the TB hospitals they set up in the '20s and '30s where literally thousands languished and millions died the last time it was rampant. Because my uncle had it, my mother tested positive all the days of her life, though she was fortunate never to have an active case of it. Whenever she got tested her arm swelled up and looked very bad. For years she kept sputem (sp?) bottles in the refrigerator of whatever she coughed up to give to the doctor who kept an eye on her to make sure she never became active. Because she had family members and school mates who died of it she was very afraid of it and thought it was the miracle of the century when they found a cure. Believe me we kids always got vaccinated fot TB and small pox when the time came!

But now it is back and it is worse and it is a damn good reason to get out there and fight for universal healthcare so we can begin to start work on getting it in check. Right now hardly anyone IS checking it and it is out there more than anyone knows.

Cat In Seattle

[bobbolink]

104. Of course! But, I contend, you still can't be healthy if you have NO HOME

It just isn't possible.

I don't want my shelter-induced TB to be treated... I want a home so I'm not IN A SHELTER to GET TB!!

Very simple, really.

The problem is, muddleclass people can understand the concept of Universal health care now, because so many have experienced it first hand, or in their families.

They think they're safe from homelessness, so they don't give a rip about that. Some morality.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

89. We are in very dire financial straits.

My husband was out of work, off and on, for about four years, before we exhausted our savings and lost our home.

We've been living hand to mouth for about 2 years. Five years ago, the concept of "paycheck to paycheck" was something we thought we'd left far behind.

I have a management job that pays pretty well, however, once you've fallen down the hole, those paychecks basically evaporate.

Thanks for igniting this discussion of what poverty in our country means. MKJ

[bobbieinok]

90. 'most married women in the US are 1 paycheck away from poverty'

(I think this was the quote.)

This was emphasized over and over and over again in the late 60s and the 70s during the second wave of the women's rights movement (the first was the one that started in Seneca Falls and ended in 1920 when women got the right to vote.)

The point was that if a woman (especially one with children) got divorced, she was VERY likely to fall significantly down the economic ladder. This was, of course, when most married women still quit working to raise children.

The women's liberation movement, MS magazine, NOW, and the other women-centered movements of the time publicized the threat of poverty that stood/stands close behind women with children.

But it seems like for most of the US today the reality of poverty is 'missing.' Just like the poor are 'missing,' except when something like Katrina happens. And the RW talk hosts blame the poor for 'being lazy and shiftless and expecting the govt to help them,' as these talk hosts did again when the 1st anniversary rolled around.

I suspect many in the US think the only sufferers from Katrina 'still demanding help' are black; the devastation and the lack of help for the whites in MS, for example, are just not on the radar for the media and the politicians.

BTW, what is the reaction to the TV show The Wire about Baltimore? After all the shows and research about the poor, often black, in the inner cities and especially in the schools, one is left with the STRONG feeling that the desperation and despair is being/has been deliberately planned. There is simply NO EXCUSE for such conditions to exist or to be tolerated in what is (supposedly) the richest country in the world

[countryjake]

99. Thanks for shining the light on the very real situation of the poor here!

Living further North, up in the foothills, I know many who actually have decided to try and make it in the woods...not immigrants, but formerly hard-working citizens, some Nam vets, some with substance-abuse problems that overcame their lives and/or mental issues, but overwhelmingly, all nudged out of "the system" in one way or the other. This summer has been so hard on them, with the awful drought and the restriction on campfires; pretty darn weird when homeless Washingtonians actually are praying for rain!

And you are so right in the comment that you made at the end of your post. Once the folk I know gave up jumping thru all of the hoops and whistles that the American system grills them with and realized that they are utterly on their own, their dignity usually has returned, no matter what living conditions they're subjected to, as they buckle down to the reality of survival.

Hidden heroes in the disgrace that is our country!

[bobbolink]

105. THanks!! YES!! I'm trying to get action taken right now on homelessness

in the mountain areas--it's a disgrace, as you said, that people are "living" (and I use the term loosely) in such horrid straits.

A few months ago, the little local rag published a story about a homeless woman, and one of the pictures has been coming back to haunt me as it gets chillier. It showed how she kept warm in the winter-- a pan lined with tinfoil, with little candles jammed in it, the foil to reflect the heat. Inventive, yes, and she's to be commended for that. But, DAMN!! Is this really the "Murkin Way"?? Is this how we want those in the rest of the world to see us?

Thanks so much for bringing up the rural areas-- so neglected and dismissed! :hi:

[countryjake]

107. Up here, undocumented workers are teaching many how to get by...

a couple of them were adept at living off the land and they were literally giving lessons on planting the quick crops (like peas) and produce that can be eaten without cooking; creating lined irrigation pools, so hauling buckets of water all day for just one day is better than doing it as needed; and simple basics on staying hygienic with very little soap and water. The large culture of hobos and Gypsies that America once liked to keep under-wraps is being revived and making good use of the wilderness areas and out-of-the-way places, where the right-wing "fears to tread", lol!

The country people are a hell of a lot better off in many ways, than lots of homeless in the cities and with the help of those who come from nations where simple living is second nature, it's turning into an education on overlooking minor differences for some, how to survive by pooling resources, learning the advantages of becoming migratory, and seeing the common cause with every person who knows what it's like to be hungry without a home base or a country that cares.

[bobbolink]

113. Fascinating! Is anyone writing about this? Sounds like the iceberg tip

The "pooling resources" sounds great, and the learning to ignore differences in order to survive...well, that's a rare plus with all the crap they are struggling with.

Is this in the Pacific north? Thanks for posting this--it's really interesting, and I'd like to hear more!

Just for the heck of it... trivia... "Hobo" came from "hoeboys", as they came back from WW1, and didn't have jobs and were broke. They rode the rails, and hired out as farm hands. Also, they tended to stay together in groups, and hired out as groups. Since they worked very long days (16 and more hours!!), they would pool their money, and hire one of the group to go out during the day and buy/read newspapers/magazines, and when they came in from the fields and were cleaning up and eating, the "reader" would tell and read to them what was happening in the country and world. The librarians I've told this to *loved* the story. :)

[Jcrowley]

114. Thanks

for this.