Abramoff clients donations pre-Abramoff? help needed

[Sydnie]

Having a discussion with a republican about Abramoff's clients donations, specifically donations to Rangle and Dorgan. I can't seem to locate a breakdown of those clients donation history before getting involved with Abramoff. Anyone know of a good resource for that information? Perhaps it is out there and I'm just not looking in the right place?

[babylonsister]

1. Here's lots of info, Sydnie, it's all about Abramoff:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=358&topic_id=597

Do you know what specific clients supposedly gave to Rangel and Dorgan?

[Sydnie]

2. I looked through that thread but didn't find anything on this angle

I have found that the CHIPPEWA, SAGINAW gave $2,00 in the primary and $2,000 in the general to Doran in '99. http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?st=MI&last=CHIPPEWA&first=SAGINAW Nothing listed as having been given to him by that group in any years later than that. No record at all for the Choctaw, Cahuilla, Sandia Pueblo, or Tigua at all, in any years. At least not at newsmeat.

They could have made contributions to his pac instead of directly to his campaign, not sure where to find that info either.

[babylonsister]

3. Here's a thought: ask the repug to provide facts, then you can

work backward from there to disprove it.
It's difficult w/o names and specific dates to try to research anything.

[Sydnie]

6. I tried that too

It's hard to prove a negative.

It's a friendly conversation so far, but knowing the info might help defuse the questions about Dorgan is it stands in the press now.

[Stephanie]

4. here's the best source >

www.opensecrets.org

[Sydnie]

5. I've tried opensecrets too

I just can't seem to drill down far enough to find that info there either. Perhaps I just don't know how that site works well enough to find the info there. I need help.

[stewert]

7. Try this..........

Just use the Republicans own tactics on them, tell them you will wait for all the facts to come out then discuss it when that happens. And tell him/her to prove what they claim, right now there is no evidence that Abramoff directed one dime to any Democrats.

Just use their own tricks on them, that's what I do, and it almost works every time. Usually they just give up and talk about something else.

If that don't work, just tell them this, with the facts we have now it shows that every dime of Abramoff money went to Republicans. Then tell them to prove to you that Abramoff money was directly directed to Democrats, there is no way to do that as of today so he/she can't win the argument.

And the real scandal is not who got Abramoff-related money, it's the fraud involved in raising all that money using lies, then donating it to Republicans running for office and re-election through fake foundations and Republican front groups like CREA etc. All the Abramoff money went to Republicans, 100 percent, that is the real scandal. The 65% of Abramoff-related money that went to Republicans and the 34% that went to democrats is a red herring. Just imagine how many Republicans are doing exactly what Abramoff and Scanlon did that have not been caught.

That is the real scandal, your Republicans friend is trying to frame the debate wrong. Ask him/her to discuss my points, that is the real scandal. And don't forget the K street project, that is part of the scandal too. It is a 100% Republican project run by Santorum, Abramoff, Norquist, etc.