Can we talk about pedophilia for a minute?

[BrightBlueDot]

I'm throwing some thoughts on the subject of pedophilia out for discussion.

I am disturbed by the way many people throw the word around to mean "attraction to people under 18." The idea that a 14 or 15 year old human being who is past puberty is a child is a conceit that's very, very recent in history -- mostly in our spoiled American society that affords most people a prolonged "adolescence," and in the last 150 years or so.

A pedophile is someone who seeks to engage in sex acts with a prepubescent child. When a human being, male or female, has passed puberty, NATURE considers them an adult. NATURE. We are terribly arrogant to insist that we know better than Mother Nature.

I'm NOT arguing for adults to randomly bed 13 year old girls who got their periods a year ago. Not at all. What I am saying is that a male who feels sexual attraction toward a female human being whom NATURE has declared an adult is not an evil pedophile. He's a criminal if he acts on it, but our setting 18 years as the magic number is purely arbitrary.

I went through puberty at 11 and had the full shape of a woman by 12 and a half. I saw R-rated movies and never got carded from 12 on. I could have passed for 18 from the time I was 12 -- and did, when it suited me. Were guys who felt attraction for me evil child molesters waiting to happen? No.

I'm not defending actual child molestation. Like over 1/3 of women in this country, I was sexually abused as a child. That was true pedophilia; I was seven. A guy over 18 who became involved with me at 13 would have been a jerk and a criminal, but he would NOT be a pedophile.

Just some thoughts. *searches for asbestos suit*

[mitchtv]

1. It bothers me too BBD

The way society presents these teens( as sex symbols) only contributes to the dilemma.

[ShortnFiery]

35. Like they asked for it? Kind of like other types of RAPE? n/t

[seabeyond]

43. we are sexualizing our girls at a younger and younger age

are they asking for rape as poster says below to dismiss you concerns..... not even. is society helping to create a mess in our childrens sexual identification.... hell yes.

put children in adult sexual world and they are going to mess it up in their minds because after all they are not adults,....

[Jackpine Radical]

2. The technical term for adults being exclusively or primarily

attracted to young but post-pubescent people of the opposite sex (as opposed to more age-appropriate partners) is "hebephilia." It is a clinical term, but not a diagnostic category. The DSM agrees entirely with you and does not classify hebephilia as a disorder.

[BrightBlueDot]

3. Thanks for the information.

Now if only NBC and the other shepherds (I use that term to mean "those who herd sheep") could be required to conduct their "stings" accordingly. If they had people posing as 9 year olds, THAT would be truly going after predators....

[alcibiades_mystery]

4. You are in deep trouble now

OK, I sorta agree with you, but I think as a society, we have determined that physical maturation is far different than intellectual and emotional maturation. But that would be NATURE too. So, we don't set just one criteria for the thing, yes?

[BrightBlueDot]

7. No, that isn't nature.

The idea that a 15 year old is not intellectually or emotionally capable of assuming the responsibilities adult life is only 150 years old or so. It's a function of our society. 15 year olds in other cultures, even in 2006, are fully functioning adults. The idea of "adolescence" is a function of wealth and privilege, not nature.

Physical maturation is nature. A male who is attracted to a post-pubescent, developed female who can bear offspring once he has implanted his seed is normal. Our culture now is so screwed up that if he beds her four days before her 18th birthday, he's an evil sexual predator who will have to register as a sex offender forever. Four days after, and he's a stud. :eyes:

[Lindacooks]

121. Vaccinations are not 'nature' either.

Or indoor plumbing. Or cars, or planes, or refrigerators.

My point? We're supposed to be able to think and reason, beyond what 'nature' has hard wired into us. Men who attracted to 'developed females' are supposed to be able to control their animal instincts. Or else they're just animals.

And the 'age of consent' in most states in this country is 16, not 18.

[Truthiness Inspector]

5. Speak for yourself

It's not just about if you've gone through puberty or not. It's also about emotional and mental maturity.

Why limit it to 18 year old men who "should" be allowed to prey on them? Why not a crinkled out goat of 88?

I am glad we have laws to protect minors from predators.

[Jackpine Radical]

6. You're missing the OP's point.

She's not endorsing sex with kids.

[Truthiness Inspector]

8. How do you define kids, or minors? n/t

[BrightBlueDot]

9. You're making my point.

Laws are arbitrary. In some states, you can consent to sex at 14. In some, 18. In some, it depends on the age of the partner. In some states, you can be tried as an adult at 15. In some it's 16 or 17.

The law is the law; obey the law. Don't pretend that the law is based on something that isn't purely arbitrary, in this case.

I haven't checked your profile to find out if you're male or female. If you are male, I guarantee you that I could find a 13 year old girl who looks and dresses like a 20 year old girl and provide her with a fake ID. If you bed her, do you deserve to be branded an evil pedophile and forced to be a registered sex offender forever?

[Jackpine Radical]

14. Want a really weird example?

I did a psych eval & testified in this case:

A 16 year-old girl was convicted of molesting 2 14-year old boys who had been placed as foster children in the foster home run by the girl's parents. The girl was retarded; her mental age was maybe 8 or 9. The boys, both quite conduct-disordered (i.e. junior psychopaths) were not retarded as far as I know. (I didn't evaluate them.) Their mental ages were presumably about the same as their chronological ages. I didn't get into the case until she had already been convicted, but primarily on my testimony she ended up on probation and was not put on the sex offender register. Her blockhead attorney did have the grace to apologize afterward for not bringing me into the case sooner.

[philosophie_en_rose]

135. Way to breach client confidentiality.

:sarcasm:

[Truthiness Inspector]

16. Well

I do believe in most states once you are over 18 you cannot have sex with anyone under the age of 18. I do know what you mean about arbitrary laws, though. Like "a minor under the age of ___."
I am a female, btw.

[KitSileya]

140. Interestingly enough,

in many industrialized countries with which it is natural for the US to compare themselves, the age of consent is 14 (Austria, Bulgaria, Iceland, Italy, Canada!), 15 (Denmark, France, Sweden), 16 (Belgium, Norway, Germany, The Netherlands, Russia, UK, Australia), or 17 (Cyprus, Ireland). In Spain, it is 13.

In the US a 16-year old can get their driver's license, but in many of these other countries, they have to wait until they're 18. In some countries, the age limit for buying alcohol is either 16 (Denmark) or 18, but in the US it's 21.

I see this as a sign that we can't quite figure out where to set the border between childhood and adulthood. A natural no-go zone would be before and after puberty, circa 14 - smack on a year for good measure, and say 15, but limit that to partners no more than 5 years apart in age, (the older partner no more than 20) and set the final limit at 16. I think 18 is silly - I'd wager a huge number, if not a majority, of American teens have had sex before they're legally allowed to.

[ShortnFiery]

10. No, if you molest those who are within adolescence, you're a

TEEN SEXUAL PREDATOR CRIMINAL instead of a Pedophile.

It's still CRIMINAL because teens under the age of 18 y.o. can not give informed consent. The vast majority of social scientists agree with the forgoing statement.

So there you have it: The difference between Pedophiles and Teen Sexual Predators is the onset of adolescence.

However, it's AS PERVERTED and CRIMINAL for an adult to have sex with someone under the age of 18 y.o. <--- For that FACT, God Bless America! Signed the vast majority of parents with school age children. :-) :hi:

On Edit: It is the responsibility of The Adult to confirm their potential sexual partners name. Yes, if you bed someone under 18, you are A CRIMINAL.

With regard to juvenile Sexual Crimes, ignorance is NOT a valid or LEGAL excuse. If convicted, you will be within the sexual predator data bases for the rest of your life. Therefore, learn a little more about a potential SEXUAL partner before you act. :grr:

[BrightBlueDot]

12. This varies, depending on the state.

Age of consent laws vary from state to state. It's 15 in some states, 16 or 17 in others. That means that an adult man having sex with a teenage girl on one side of a state line is a TEEN SEXUAL PREDATOR CRIMINAL and on the other side is just a guy. Does this strike you as sane?

[ShortnFiery]

17. Yes, trust me on this - If the teens parents learns about you,

be advised that they will KICK YOUR ASS out of their child's life.

Plus the POLICE will keep a record of "your act" to see if you will attempt to seduce a younger teen.

It OFTEN becomes both a compulsion and an obsession. :grr:

[TimeChaser]

13. So...

What's really the difference between having sex with a 17-year-old and an 18-year-old? Having gone through that birthday several years back, I don't remember a sudden change in maturity, or a sudden burst into adult sexuality, or some sign over my head "I'm legal, you can think I'm hot now."

:shrug:

[BrightBlueDot]

19. The difference is that one will get you prison time, a lifetime on the

sex offender registry and all of the harassment and societal scorn that brings with it, and people -- even progressive people, like our fellow DUers -- will hate you forever, considering you no different from the man who assaulted me when I was seven.

The other is just sex.

Doesn't make sense to me, but then, what do I know? :shrug:

[ShortnFiery]

22. Well, how about the fact that it is IMMORAL?

If that doesn't work for you, please be sure to do a background check of his/her parents - like say how many police officer or former Prison Guard Captains in their family. The kind of people who will "make sure" you have nothing to do with the under age teen again. :grr: :nuke:

You see, parents tend to take this LAW seriously and will either make sure you stay away from their teen, or you will be charged with statutory rape.

Don't do it unless you wish to be on the Sexual Predator roles for the rest of your life. Think about being mapped and your offense published on internet sites? That should be enough for you to validate a teen's age of a potential sex partner. ;)

[TimeChaser]

25. Immoral?

I guess a great deal of the world, where girls 14 and up get married, are all evildoers than. :shrug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

108. In societies where girls of 14 get married, it's usually to older men

and there are definite disadvantages for them, such as more difficulty with childbirth, reduced opportunities for education, and (usually) being dominated and intimidated by her much older husband.

Parents are naturally suspicious of an older guy who is interested in their young teen, and with good reason. Such men are often going after young teens because they're afraid of women their own age, or else women their own age are wise to what jerks they are.

[Spider Jerusalem]

33. Except that it's only 'immoral' by the standards of our society.

Morality is greatly fluid, and entirely dependent upon prevailing cultural norms. There is no single standard of 'morality'. It somehow seems rather MORE immoral to send a 20-year-old to prison for consensual sexual intercourse with a fifteen-year-old (note 'consensual') than it does for a couple with that age disparity to have sex in the first place. Our socuiety is entirely too fixated on sexual morality; the result of all those religiously psychotic Puritans coming here hundreds of years ago, I suppose.

[ShortnFiery]

39. No, as I've stated MOST teens under the age of 18 can not give

INFORMED CONSENT! = This is based on an accumulation of Social Science Research.

Let's not go back to The Middle Ages just because teens look so hot and us adults have no MORAL compass. If for no other reason that their parents will kick your ass, perhaps both figuratively and physically, please don't do this immoral act.

[boolean]

41. This is bullshit

People used to get married by 14 or 15 in the middle ages.

It's modern times that has made it "immoral".

[ShortnFiery]

52. Operative words "used to" , since that time social scientists have

done extensive work on maturity levels of teens. There are always exceptions but they concur ONE can NOT make fully informed decisions until the age of 18 y.o.

That's called scientific inquiry that improves the quality of life for our society. I don't want the laws to change backwards.

[MiniMandaRuth]

109. Oh fuck that.

I'm more mature than half the fucking adults I know.



(Literally fucking)

[ShortnFiery]

114. How lovely. n/t

[MiniMandaRuth]

122. Yes. How lovely.

I'm tired of people going crazy every time I make a sexually suggestive comment. I'm tired of everyone getting up in arms every time a 16yo boyfriend has consensual sex with his 18yo. I'm tired of not only being unable to control what decisions I make with my body, but who can treasure it and when.

I'm so sorry if that offends you, but dammit, what you have been saying has offended me. Love is love. Sexual maturity is sexual maturity. It's not a switch that gets turned on at 18. There are people, men and women, who are thirty, forty, older even, that aren't sexually mature. If they can't hold relationships together, and I can, why can't I express my love for that person?

[ShortnFiery]

125. Because, with the exception of those "close call 17 y.o.+" cases the

Adult is potentially taking advantage of their innocence. It is established by social scientists that 18 y.o. is about the time one can give full informed consent on important, life changing decisons.

Sure, if one's parents and their partner's parents are cool by that, so be it. However, many times parents and family members are not appreciative of an adult who seduces their teen and society looks down upon a teacher who seduces his/her teen age student. :shrug:

[kiahzero]

127. Let's see some citations

Enough with the passive "It's been established." If there's compelling research out there that suggests that the law somehow stumbled across a good point to draw the line, let's see it.

Edit: I should point out that my bristliness over this issue stems from my general bristliness over interference with personal autonomy in general, and with government interference with the personal autonomy of youth in specific. It struck me as unjust I was subject to such interference without good reason, and it continues to do so now that I'm past the age where such interference would be constitutional. If there's a valid reason for it, then I'll accept it, but far too often it's expected for the proof to go without saying.

[ShortnFiery]

131. Here's some light reading to get you started ...

American Bar Association Center on Children and the Law, “Sexual Relationships Between Adult Males and Young Teen Girls: Exploring the Legal and Social Responses,” Sharon Elstein and Noy Davis, Washington, DC, October 1997, p. II.2. Michael W. Lynch,

“Enforcing Statutory Rape?” The Public Interest, no. 132, Summer 1998, p. 3.3.

Juvenile Rights Project of the American Civil Liberties Union, “The Strange World of Statutory Rape,” Children’s RightsReport, Vol 2, No. 6, 1978 as cited in article “Can Statutory Rape Laws Be Effective in Preventing Adolescent Pregnancy?” by Patricia Donovan, Family Planning Perspectives, Vol 29, No. 1 January/February 1997).4. M. Oberman,

The Legal Status of Adolescents 1980, pp. 276-278, (1981), see state-by-statesummary of statutory rape laws.6. Ibid.7.

David Popenoe, Life Without Father (New York: The Free Press, 1996).

“Preventable Calamity: How to Reduce Teenage Pregnancy,” USA Today, March 1997.

“Sexual Abuse as a Factor in Adolescent Pregnancy and Child Maltreatment,” Family Planning Perspec-tives, January/February 1992, 24.36. U.S.

-------------------

[MiniMandaRuth]

128. Yeah, the same society that:

A) Thinks that men do everything sexually wrong

B) Thinks that women are unable to hurt

C) Thinks children are stupid little creatures that cannot take care of themselves.

If I want to love someone, then I want to love them. I don't care what my mother, father, or my teacher or anyone else other than me and my lover has to say about it.

[philosophie_en_rose]

137. And that's why the law applies to you.

You don't care what you or your 'lover' says about it. Frankly, it indicates a lack of insight. Not to mention, respect for your parents.

[Odin2005]

143. Bingo.

[philosophie_en_rose]

136. Would you risk someone you cared about for sex?

I'm not too much older than you, so I still remember how it feels to be marginalized by adults. As you grow older, you will definitely see that so-called adults are really just people behind the wizard's curtain. Many of them are morons with power. (See Bush administration :)).

But the real question for me is "why"? Why is someone's lust after a minor incapable of waiting until adulthood? And, why is a minor's lust for an adult worth jail? Just a thought.

[Spider Jerusalem]

45. Again, what the hell is your problem?

You seem to think that anyone who suggest that there's no logical difference between a sixteen-year-old and an eighteen-year-old consenting to sex must be a slavering, Humbert Humbert-type maniac who's probably going to go out and try to nail a high-school cheerleader (this is very far from being the case; people can disagree with you on intellectual grounds without their disagreement being reflective of their own actions. You obviously need to figure this out, because the tone of your replies indicates you haven't managed to.)

[ShortnFiery]

59. I'm talking about "the law"

If someone you know does what you call "a marginal case" I'm sure that they will explain it fully to the police who will, if the law is breeched, charge them with Statutory RAPE.

No, I'm not willing to consider all these asinine conditions.

I have no problem, if you talk to most parents with school age children, they will concur with my views. :hi:

[Spider Jerusalem]

62. If you're talking about the law...

then you really need to learn NOT to use the personal pronoun 'you' if what you're talking about is a hypothetical situation involving some person who is not the person you're replying to, because, quite frankly, saying 'their parents will kick YOUR ass' or 'YOU will go to jail if you do this' sounds pretty goddamned INSULTING.

[ShortnFiery]

68. Then I'm Sorry, for I was using the generic "you" not "YOU" personally

I submit my genuine apology for the way I phrased this argument.

You have a valid point - I could qualified more with "they" but in no way did I wish to make it a personal assault on your person. :blush:

[Odin2005]

142. Most of that social science "evidence" has a Western bias.

Lets face it, psycologists don't go to some tribe in the jungle to do thier research, the research is based on data from people who live in Western or westernized societies and so that data is therefore biased.

[Spider Jerusalem]

20. Sorry, but it ISN'T 'perverted'...

for someone over the age of 18 to have sex with someone UNDER the age of 18, as long as the younger of the two is sexually mature. There's nothing at all 'perverse' in that; our society has laws that place the legal age of consent at anywhere from 14 (in some states) to 18, but there's nothing at all abnormal about an adult male being attracted to a sexually mature female.

[BrightBlueDot]

26. You said it much better than I did. Thank you. n/t

[ShortnFiery]

28. It's immoral and CRIMINAL in most states...

If you don't like that then be prepared to be charged and convicted ... with your name being put on the Teen Sexual Predator websites for the rest of your life.

It's absolutely perverted especially if you should do it to mine or my friends' teens.

Further, you best make sure his/her parents are cool with it before you seduce them. :thumbsdown:

[TimeChaser]

30. Again with the "immoral"

How is sex with a 18-year-old more moral than sex with a 17-year-old? I'll take it that it's illegal, but explain how it's immoral, please.

[BrightBlueDot]

32. I am also eager to hear that.

In my state, one is not a legal adult until one is 19, although the age of consent for sex is lower. I wonder then if sex with an 18 year old is moral or immoral in my state, and how the morality changes if one walks across the state line first? I live near the state line, and their age of consent AND their age of majority are different.

This is an issue of legality, NOT morality.

[ShortnFiery]

50. Don't give me the "outlier case" - atypical - address the issue

In such "close calls" (17 almost 18) it's up to the minor's parents if they approve of his/her dating an adult.

[TimeChaser]

60. Fine, then what about a 16 year old?

16 is the age of consent in my home state. Is Pennsylvania sick and immoral?

[ShortnFiery]

86. Well if someone preyed on MY or MY FRIEND's 16 year old,

I may not get the law, but I'd get someone to communicate to them that they need to get out of my teen's life.

Even if 16 is the age of consent in PA, I think you fail to realize HOW SERIOUSLY parents take the fact of an Adult seducing their minor child.

Anyone who thinks that cool, again I would suggest they do a background check on their Victim's family. The repercussions could be quite testy because parents want to protect their children against adult predators.

[kiahzero]

106. So now you're threatening vigilante justice.

For someone so concerned about things being against the law, you seem to have a fair amount of contempt for it.

[ShortnFiery]

115. I'm not threatening anything - however, if THEY choose to seduce a

teen who is under 18 y.o. they will have to consider THE POSSIBILTY that not every one of his/her older friends and family are going to be pleased.

Nope, no threats, but society will consider they, in general, a pervert.

Sorry, that's society, not me, not my threats - society's mores.

[kiahzero]

58. Because the law said so

And if it's against the law, it must be immoral. No further substantiation is necessary, just lots of foaming at the mouth and bold tags.

(It shouldn't be necessary, but... :sarcasm:).

[Spider Jerusalem]

37. I'm not sure exactly what YOUR problem is;

you seem to be insinuating that my statement of simple biological FACTS must mean that I'm some sort of statutory rapist (which is quite far from being the case; I can't imagine being attracted to a teenager, largely because of the difference in interests and life experience, regardless of physical maturity).

And you're still WRONG; it's NOT PERVERTED AT ALL for someone to be sexually attracted to a SEXUALLY MATURE INDIVIDUAL. (I suggest you buy a dictionary and look up 'perverted', because you obviously have NO FUCKING CLUE what it means.)

[ShortnFiery]

47. I do have a clue as I've seen many interviews of both sexual

predators and victims.

If nothing else I type makes sense to you, KNOW THIS. If you act as an Adult to seduce a teen under the age of 18 y.o. you will often pay a high price. If the law doesn't get you, then often his/her parents will make damn sure you don't see them again.

Why does the above happen. Because you are AN ADULT.

And yes, despite what state you are in, the vast majority of parents with school age children will consider you a TEEN SEXUAL PREDATOR. Most people who do this, don't stop at seducing only one juvenile, but they do it repetitively and often "go younger."

It's not my problem, it's yours - if you are an adult who seduces someone under the age of 18 y.o.

[Spider Jerusalem]

53. You very obviously have rather severe reading comprehension difficulties.

Precisely WHICH PART of 'I can't imagine being attracted to a teenager...' is it that you are so completely fucking incapable of processing? Do you have some sort of mental block? Are you too goddamned STUPID to understand that I am saying that sexual attraction is more often than not based on PHYSICAL APPEARANCE, and that it is PERFECTLY GODDAMNED NORMAL for someone to be attracted to a SEXUALLY MATURE INDIVIDUAL even though said person MAY be no older than 14 or 15? (Please, find me a psychologist who says there's something ABNORMAL about that. If you can.)

[ShortnFiery]

70. Attaction is normal, acting on that sexual attraction is legally criminal

Gee, you are offended.

Please understand that I'm also talking, in general, NOT personal. :hi:

[BrightBlueDot]

73. Do you have multiple personalities?

Less than an hour ago, you said: Just because they have entered puberty, does not make them TARGETS for your perverted sexual interest.

That's f**king sick thinking. Just SICK. :grr:


Now you say "attraction is normal."


:wtf:

[ShortnFiery]

88. No, finding a teen sexually attractive is normal, SEDUCING that teen

is perverted and criminal.

It's CLEAR. However, I see that you are losing this argument, and therefore, feel a need to start in with personal assaults.

How nice. :(

[spacelady]

82. Not abnormal or immoral, however, in some cases, illegal, so where

are you going with this? If it is so HARD to wait, maybe it Would be worth it to wait & avoid a lifetime of stigma. Or an unplanned pregnancy, or an obligation you did not anticipate or a case of VD that has left you ill. The possible consequences may last far longer than the actual act. Maturity carries some delay of gratification for valid reasons..

[Guaranteed]

85. delete nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

92. I started dating my wife when she was 15 and I was 17 1/2.

When I turned 18 did I become a sexual predator?

If so, when did the statute of limitations expire on that? (We've been married 23 years on Sunday).

The laws are the laws, but they are arbitrary - they have to be because they have to be suitable for the majority of cases.

The punishment, however, need not be.

[philosophie_en_rose]

138. Most states have a range. (In Washington - a 3 year diff, I think).

So over 18 AND over 3 years older than victim - or something like that.

[pitohui]

54. i could and did give consent perfectly well as a teen

i find it hard to believe that all teens, other than myself, are or were idiots incapable of giving consent or thinking for themselves

the law is an ass and anyone who had an ounce of brain, heart, and spirit as a teen-ager knows it

we obey the law out of fear not because it makes any kind of moral or ethical sense, we are sheep to be herded and told what to do and told we are children without a brain at higher and higher ages

there is a movement now, supposedly spearheaded by "scientists," claiming that the
human brain is not fully formed until age 25

come on, how stupid do they think we are?

this is about a huge for profit prison industry creating crimes where no crimes exist, it has nothing to do with any teen's inability to figure out whether or not she's interested in consenting to sex

we can holler "oh the poor children" all night long but it's really all about the dollar bill

more prisoners, more profits

[AZCat]

57. IMHO the human brain isn't fully formed...

until it votes "Democratic". :)

[pitohui]

75. then by that argument

it should be a severe felony to have sex with a republican... :-)

[Odin2005]

141. Not your stupid, western-centric rantings again.

:eyes:

[rudeboy666]

11. ?

"A guy over 18 who became involved with me at 13 would have been a jerk and a criminal, but he would NOT be a pedophile."

'over 18'?

50?

45?

30?

"NATURE considers them an adult. NATURE. We are terribly arrogant to insist that we know better than Mother Nature."_______________explain 'Nature'

[BrightBlueDot]

15. Sure.

In the context I'm talking about, nature is that process of evolution by which girls begin menstruating, ovulating, gain the capability of bearing offspring, develop breasts for the feeding of offspring, experiencing sexual desires, and emitting pheremones. This happens naturally, when nature has determined that the girl is ready to become a woman.

[XemaSab]

18. Agreed

In most of the world, for most of history, 14 year old girls were totally fair game for any man.

[BrightBlueDot]

24. But we Amurrikans know better!

After all, who the hell are we going to market skintight jeans to if we don't have a huge market segment with disposable income and no bills??

[ShortnFiery]

34. OMFG! May the Lord have mercy on THEIR soul if you should act on it.

If I was part of the community, you'd be arrested, charged and convicted.

Teens under the age of 18 y.o. can NOT give informed consent. MOST social scientists agree to this analysis.

Just because they have entered puberty, does not make them TARGETS for your perverted sexual interest.

That's f**king sick thinking. Just SICK. :grr:


On Edit: Changed "your" to "there" to forgo a misunderstanding.

[TimeChaser]

38. Ah...

Where did Xema say she was interested in minors? What she said was true. In a lot of cultures, including our own at one point, 14 and up was/is a fine age for marrying. You need to calm down your knee-jerk reactions.

[ShortnFiery]

76. Again, I was using the generic "you" my apologies = not a personal attack

[WhollyHeretic]

40. I see reading comprehension isn't a strength for you.

[ShortnFiery]

74. Yes, and useful posts isn't a strength for you.

Nope, I am biased because I've seen too much trauma to TEEN victims through study of interviews of Sexual Predators.

The hardest job is to counsel sexual predators because, they honestly believe that it's so normal.

If you knew of the long term emotional trauma on many of these young teens of adult predators, you would not think of it as "perfectly natural." :(

[WhollyHeretic]

84. Your way over the top response had nothing to do with what the person

posted. You attacked them and basically called them a pedophile, all because you can't read.

[ShortnFiery]

98. I LABELED no one, I should have distanced my use with "they"

but I already stated my regrets about this.

What's your role here? Just to be nasty? What are you truly contributing to this discussion?

[WhollyHeretic]

102. Your responses also had nothing to do with what people were saying

you just went frothing at the mouth when people did not parrot your words. So you're trying to say you were responding to people and using "you" but you weren't referring to those people? hmmmm...

[ShortnFiery]

113. Yes, and you are the typical - JUDGE - who is going to make everything

right. Face it, your presence is just as asinine as what you claim my BIAS is stated.

At least I admit that I'm biased in favor of teen victims.

That is, I don't jump into the middle of threads and launch personal attacks.

We are equally "foaming at the mouth." But you won't admit any faults, will you? ;)

[BrightBlueDot]

48. Your American arrogance is astounding.

You have just called every culture in the world, except ours, "f**cking sick."

[ShortnFiery]

77. Yeah, that's why I have an advanced degree in Physiological Psychology n/t

[madmusic]

112. Bush has a degree from Harvard.

'Nuff said.

[ShortnFiery]

117. I earned mine from a State University

Using my Veterans' Benefits (VEAP) to pay for tuition. :P

[Odin2005]

144. In otherwords, you are indoctrinated with western-centric biases.

[madmusic]

Hypocrites

Funny how so many ignored this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2193184&mesg_id=2193184

Maybe some of the abuse there is some they have done? Raging homophobia is often tendencies and temptation expressed with anger. Projection, it's called.

[ShortnFiery]

79. I'm no hypocrite, merely the mother of young children ...

When they get to be young teens, no, I don't think I'm wrong to NOT want adults seducing them. :shrug:

[madmusic]

95. Are you as passionate about the other abuse?

That can be just as harmful?

[ShortnFiery]

96. Of course I am. But I lose patience with people who think it's cool

to bed Minors. I know that no one here would consider it, but there are people who obsess on it. And yes, consistently bedding Minors is a perversion. :(

[madmusic]

116. Discussions about other abuse...

Laws about other abuse, well, they just ain't as popular. You know, it's like those kids ain't as popular. Or they don't matter. Or the harm done to them isn't as severe. A mature teen engaging in consensual sex can be FAR less harmful.

That's hypocritical, and I think sometimes those who are most passionate about sex abuse sometimes either project or have committed some of the other kinds of abuse, physical abuse, neglect, emotional abuse.

[ShortnFiery]

119. Not true, I volunteered and have worked with women

who have been abused by their husbands, the chronically mentally ill who live in the community, and have visited the elderly of my Parish.

It's fine if you think I'm wrong and dislike my persona, but I am NOT a Hypocrite.

[madmusic]

123. Society, as you mentioned in another post.

It is the hypocrite. And we are talking child abuse, not abused women.

Why doesn't the mother or father who breaks a child's arm or blacken her eye get 25-to-life? Why are those children worth less?

Children are FAR more likely to be murdered by a parent, especially the mother, than anyone else, until they become teens, and then gangs are the most dangerous.

For every dollar we put into the criminal prosecution of statutory rape, that is a dollar lost to another abused child who needs it far more. That is not to say we should not prosecute statutory rape, but only to say we should get our priorities straight and focus on what is most harmful in ALL kinds of abuse. That's where the money should go.

Anything else is hypocritical.

[ShortnFiery]

124. Yes, you have made, IMO some valuable points ...

There are degrees of trauma and yes, some abuse is much more profound and long term as others.

I understand your frustration. There's not ever enough within the community for counseling and mental health (life skills) promotion programs. If we didn't need to trash 4 billion dollars a month to the War Machine, perhaps the full array of Child and Teen Abuse problems could be addressed and properly treated on both a Mental Health as well as a Law Enforcement levels.

Perhaps, we differ on our focus of compassion based on our past experiences.

No, I can not judge your efforts as any less valid as mine.

Peace. :hi:

[Red Right and BLUE]

21. I get your point, and you're correct.

My first 'real' relationship started when I was fifteen. My boyfriend was 20 at that time. I looked like a woman and he was attracted to me. My family knew him well and trusted him so we were allowed to date. I don't think of a person like him as 'pervert' or a pedophile, because he isn't one.

[ariellyn]

23. Nice distraction thread. n/t

[BrightBlueDot]

29. Um....okay.

Ever since NBC started this crap, I've resented the term "pedophile" being used. A pedophile victimized me when I was seven. These guys who think they're chatting with 14 and 15 year olds are assholes, not pedophiles.

Discussing it without checking in with you first makes this a distraction thread, I guess? OK. :shrug:

[blonndee]

49. Nice contribution.

Seriously, though, I think this is an interesting discussion and the OP is pretty brave to bring it up. I can't even begin to imagine the reasoning behind your characterization of this thread as a "distraction." Distraction from what? Are we a one-topic-only message board all of a sudden? I must have missed that memo.

[fishwax]

27. for the sake of clarity, is there any particular reason you limit it to

heterosexual behavior?

[BrightBlueDot]

31. Yes.

I am heterosexual, and a male pedophile vicimized me when I was seven. I have no experience with homosexual behavior and my knowledge is limited to what I've learned from observing some gay couples I am friends with. I did not consider that knowledge sufficient to try to include homosexual behavior in this discussion.

I should have clarified this; I appreciate your asking. Thank you.

[OwnedByFerrets]

46. Thank you for bring up a very

interesting topic. Its amazing how some subjects are so polarizing, even within "our" little community.
Again, thanks.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[riderinthestorm]

42. Maturation rates vary from person to person

BUT, science has proven that it typically takes more than 18 months from a girls' first period until she is fully, physically, maturated. That means a girl who doesn't get her period until 16 years or so, her brain isn't fully developed until she is close to 18. And look, I'm not even touching her emotional and mental state....

Boys will usually maturate later (common knowledge, just reiterating).

I think US society (and most western societies) are simply trying to "cover all the bases" by setting the age of consent at 18 years old.

Beyond that, science has proven that most teens don't experience a full comprehension of real "adult" maturation in regards to ideas like mortality, sexuality, addiction and more until they are over 18 years old.

I'm pretty comfortable with the idea of teens being considered 'adults' at 18 years old. Yes, it's an arbitrary age, but on the whole it's a standard that protects more than enables, and when it comes to children and exploitation (sexually but even in bigger ways like a draft etc.), I am okay with this.

[BrightBlueDot]

51. Quick question.

Do you know any girls who didn't get their periods until they were 16? Between myself, my mother, my sister, and my four best girlfriends, the oldest age was 13. Everything I've read says the age has been dropping dramatically and the average is now 11, which would put full physical maturity, by what you have said, at around 12 and a half.

Again, before someone jumps down my throat, I am NOT saying that men should be free to bed 12 year olds. I'm saying that if girls reach physical maturity at 12, the idea that they will (or should) go until 18 without any male attention -- and that, if they get male attention, the males in questions are sick pedophiles who deserve to be on the sex offender registry -- is preposterous.

[TimeChaser]

55. I got mine at 12

Fully 'developed' around 15 or so :shrug:

[riderinthestorm]

65. I do. My daughter's best friend. She is very tall, willowy

almost an archetypical model type. She got her first period when she was 17 years old!!!!

She was really freaked out about it, but her mother didn't get her first period until she was almost 18 years old.

The tall, thin girls maturate very, very late. FYI from my own very amateurish research.

[pitohui]

66. how is this fair? that's completely illogical

i got my first period at age 11, i was supposed to wait 7 years to avoid putting my boyfriend in legal jeopardy?

i'm sorry, that dog don't hunt

the law -- and your post -- takes the view that a teen girl's needs are not important and it's perfectly fine if her needs are denied "to cover all the bases"

i think that's shitty, believe it or not, when i was a teen, i was a real person too, flesh and blood, as good as you or anybody else on this board

you wonder why more kids today aren't suicidal, when they have to live in fear that if daddy finds out about their boyfriend, he'll put him in jail!

[riderinthestorm]

83. Don't shoot the messenger!

(says the woman who got her own period at age 11, and had her first sexual experience at 15 years old with her 16 year old boyfriend).

Look, it's a general standard. I'm not defending it, but there is some basis in scientific fact for why 18 years old is the law. I actually know one of those girls who really wasn't mature even at 17 years old, not physically, not emotionally or mentally. They are out there. And they deserve protecting.

I'm not sure how to resolve this. I don't even begin to go there. I'm just putting out a fact I know for sure.

Peace!

[RC]

78. The real reason 18 is considered an adult is because,

That is the age most people graduate from High School, get jobs and start living on their own - Period. Nothing more.
It is an arbitrary number. If our public schooling lasted till 20, that would be the age we would be auguring about here. If it were 16, that would be the age considered to be adulthood and the arguments here would adjust accordingly.

[pitohui]

44. not in the last 150 years, in the last 30 years

i've watched this witch hunt develop in my lifetime, when i was a teen girl, yes, it was rumored that someone's dad could have someone's boyfriend put in prison, but no dad was really hateful enough to do it, it was pretty much understood that a teen girl wants an older boy, not a fumbling child -- teen boys simply do not mature as fast as girls, no way, no how

[BrightBlueDot]

56. Thank you.

I can find vestiges of this idea of "adolesence," wherein one is physically an adult but assumed incapable of behaving as one -- in some reading from the 1920's and 30's. Not much of it, but enough that I took my number back a bit. You're correct, however, that it's in the last 30 years that it's gotten ridiculous.

[ShortnFiery]

63. You want to bet?

Really, A TEEN SEXUAL PREDATOR will pay a high price - parents will act!

And be very afraid of potential other connections the parents of RAPED young teens have - to ensure their their point across to the RAPIST. There's little tolerance of RAPISTS either in prison OR society.

It's not worth the crime.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ShortnFiery]

93. The true indication of winning an argument = personal attacks by opponent

No, I don't have reading comprehension problems, it's just that you don't dig what it is that I have to say. :-)

BTW busybodies are their parents. Ask any parent of a young teen if they would approve of them being seduced by an adult?

I rest my case. :hi:

[BrightBlueDot]

61. Another thought, before I crash.

It's almost funny. We live on a planet where the vast majority of cultures and societies recognize physical maturity as the beginning of adulthood. We Amurrikans think we know better than everyone else and nature, so we have laws set in place that allow corporate America to film adult men having sexualized conversations with what they believe to be teenage girls -- creatures that our very selfsame culture sexualizes in the extreme -- so that the sheep at home will watch the commercials and make more money for corporate America before the guys are sent to the for-profit prison industry to make even more money for corporate America.

And the viewers at home consider themselves enlightened and righteous.

If I couldn't laugh, I'd have to cry.

Crashing soon. Had to be at work quite early this morning. Thanks all for some interesting discussion on a topic that had been on my mind for awhile.

[ShortnFiery]

64. What you so sadly miss is that it's not "physical" but "emotional"

maturity that sets these limits, these laws.

If we TRULY respect the teen, the teen's parent, and society, we will always RESIST the temptation to seduce minors.

It's a law that reflects scientific data on emotional security ... it's a law that is considerate of the MINOR. It's a law that should be upheld. :hi:

[newsguyatl]

67. totally agree with you

[LordLovesAWorkingMan]

69. Can "nature" be called upon to testify in a court of law?

If not, I'm fine with the "arbitrary" rules we've set up. The "but she had wide hips" defense feels sort of flimsy and ripe for abuse, if you ask me.

[pitohui]

72. why can't the girl be called to testify

if the girl says she gave consent, that should be the end of the matter

the presumption that a girl of 15 is an idiot who doesn't know her own mind is ridiculous

[LordLovesAWorkingMan]

80. A 15 year old is not emotionally or intellectually responsible for herself

Spare me the one-in-a-thousand counterexamples, please. The law is written for the general, not the specific, and 15 year old girls are not ready to make those decisions.

Before anyone beats me over the head with the fact that 15 used to be marrying age, recall that in those days they typically married into extended families, and didn't leave their own very far behind.

[kiahzero]

87. That's right... I'd forgotten that rights don't matter if you're under 18.

:eyes:

If we, as a society, really cared about the personal autonomy of people under the age of 18, the law could be written in such a way as to examine if the particular individual was capable of giving informed consent in the situation at hand, rather than a hard and fast rule. The fact that the law is not written in such a way is just another example of the "children-as-chattel" mindset that perseveres in our society.

[LordLovesAWorkingMan]

90. Nice straw man

Could keep a whole family warm all night when lit on fire.

[kiahzero]

100. How, precisely, is that a strawman?

You argued by assertion that the law has to be written generally, without any sort of examination of individual circumstances. I argued that's not true, and that a significant reason why it isn't is because of the popular belief that those under the age of 18 have no right to personal autonomy.

A strawman would be arguing against a weaker form of the argument one's opponent is making. Given that my argument directly addressed yours, it's impossible for it to be a strawman.

[philosophie_en_rose]

133. No. Their right matters more. The right against exploitation by perverts.

There is something highly suspicious about adults that cannot refrain from sex with adolescents.

[Warpy]

81. Being attacted and acting on that attraction are two different things

Jumping little girls as soon as they hit puberty is WRONG. The little girls aren't nearly old enough to know what they're getting into and if they get pregnant, their health is in serious jeopardy. Boys who are seduced by teachers and the like often have emotional problems arising from it.

We do need some common sense, however, when it's an 18 year old and his 17 year old girlfriend...or if they're both 16...or any other case where there is age parity and not a disparity in power.

That's the problem, rally. The only people who should be bedding young teenagers are other young teenagers. Adults need to back the hell off.

[ShortnFiery]

91. You put it so well - that's what I was trying to type but failed

I have been too close to some victims of sexual predators, therefore, I have an obvious bias. :blush:

Thanks for making that clear for others. :-)

[brentspeak]

89. I'm disturbed by the existence of this ridiculous thread

I can't recall any nationwide controversy regarding the issue you state: "I am disturbed by the way many people throw the word (pedophile) around to mean "attraction to people under 18."

And the reason I can't recall a controversy is because there is no controversy. News articles almost uniformly and exclusively use the word "pedophile" when reporting on incidents of adults having sex with those under 14 or so. News articles reporting incidents of adults having sex with 15, 16, 17-year-olds rarely include the word "pedophile", and just focus on the issue and the words, "statutory rape".

So your imaginary "many people" who are "throwing around" the word "pedophile" in the way you describe don't even exist.

[spacelady]

94. Please make adjustments for Dumbya era vs. Carter era. Back in the

day, this just wasn't even on the radar like now. Back in the day when AIDS was just emerging as a Gay Man Disease. Back when the campuses were not closed. You get my drift, free love was the thing and many other topics were being examined & discussed. The Reagan era just fucked it all up & sent us 70's people into an abyss of "What?? WHY?! So here I am, saying above all: Make the act of love count for something & do not risk or ruin your future for momentary pleasure.

[MiniMandaRuth]

97. I know exactly what you mean.

Right now I could pass for an adult. Men over twenty look at me in *that* way sometimes. Thankfully, I do not know them, and none of them have ever tried to make a pass at me.

But when we speak of an 18 year old or older getting involved with a 17 year old to 14 years old, I see that all the time at my highschool, and I wouldn't call it pedophilia.

And it pisses me off when people think that kids are stupid, just because we haven't experienced everything yet. If a 17 year old has a crush on me, and he has his birthday, is that pedophillia?

[TimeChaser]

99. You're just so sexy! Cannot... resist...

:P

:hi:

[MiniMandaRuth]

101. Must... negate... feelings....

Must... try....

SUCCESS!!!!

:P

But yeah. I have an 18-year-old friend in band and she says that she felt no change what so ever... other than the fact that she can legally buy tobacco.

[TimeChaser]

103. See, I didn't care about the tobacco part

I just became designated yaoi buyer.

[MiniMandaRuth]

105. I'm just a writer and editor.

Still waiting to legally view... not that I do... umm.... look the other way.... ummm... yes... ah... yeah.

[TimeChaser]

107. Uh huh...

Just like I did :rofl:

[MiniMandaRuth]

111. Ai no Kusabi, what would I do without thee?

Oh wait... umm... I wasn't supposed to say that! :rofl:

[spacelady]

104. I just watched Fast Times at Ridgemont High last weekend.

Have you seen that poor old antique movie? That was based on my life & I suspect many others'.

Edit: Fast times at typing stuff.

[MiniMandaRuth]

110. No, I have never seen that movie before.

[spacelady]

118. Well it IS rated R, but it was on Comedy Central last weekend

with the naughty bits somewhat obscured. Good movie for teenage angst without trying to peddle a heavyhanded "message".

[ComerPerro]

120. Children worked in coal mines and women had no rights back then, too

should we go back to that?

[philosophie_en_rose]

132. Of course. Factories can't help it. They just love the children.

:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

How dare we even dream about protections for minors. Work hour limits? Time for education? Safety standards? Oh hell no! How degrading to their automony as pre-adults! How can we question the undying love of factories for people without the maturity to question violations of labor law!

:eyes:

Even if the NAMBLA members in the posts above really love adolescents, it's really sick that they don't respect their so-called 'equal' partners' enough to wait until they're adults. Real love could wait.

But the ultimate defense of exploitation is to blame the victim.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

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[OzarkDem]

129. Law considers it otherwise

Physical maturity is not an indicator of mental, emotional or sexual maturity.

As someone who "matured" at an early age (also around age 11) I wasn't ready for sex and didn't care about it, but I sure had to fight off many men. It was unpleasant and confusing and I don't wish it on any other girl.

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[philosophie_en_rose]

134. A post about boobies will be locked, but sex with minors?

:shrug:

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[unhappycamper]

145. Locking.

This flame fest is now closed.