Still believe "magic" bullet is a conspiracy ?

[Justice Is Comin]

There were three shots.

ONE bullet. Oswald was the only shooter. Specter did not do anything but draw the conclusion he should have.

If you didn't see the Discovery TV two hour special last night, you need to. After seeing it, if you're still convinced one bullet didn't cause 7 wounds, you just don't have desire for the truth.

They examined the conspiracy as throughly as if you took each grain of sand on a beach and scrutinized it for irregularities. Their intent was to do everything they could to validate that one bullet could not have done what the Warren Commission concluded.

They in fact duplicated the exact shot that caused the wounds precisely. They documented that the bullet would have been pristine. They also documented that any other shooter that would have been on the grassy knoll would have had to be 2.8 feet tall or 40 feet behind the retaining wall and standing on a 16 foot ladder.

I'm tired of hearing that Specter is part of a conspiracy covering Kennedy's death. And I think he has found some conscience to bring Bush to account. We will know that in a few weeks. But see the Discovery Special before you tell me anything more about the magic bullet conspiracy .

[ronnykmarshall]

1. Oswald was not the only assassin.

I'll never believe that. Ruby shot Oswald to shut him up.

[regnaD kciN]

25. More to the point...

...it has already been scientifically established that there were at least two shooters. (Whether Oswald was one of them is yet unanswered.) This was also the official conclusion of the 1979 House Committee investigation into the assassination.

Acoustic analysis of a police dictabelt recording, taken from an open mic in Dealy Plaza, and confirmed by a second lab study, has shown that there is a greater than 99.9% chance that there were four shots, not three -- and that two of them were far too close together to have come from the same weapon.

Whether or not the "magic bullet" theory can be proven makes no difference, since it's irrelevant to the number of shots fired.

[Justice Is Comin]

35. The House Committe was wrong.

They addressed that too and disproved it. There were three shots. You can only understand what I'm talking about if you see the program.

[regnaD kciN]

40. They TRIED to disprove it...

...and, shortly after the committee's report, got one lab to question the results.

A number of years later, the test was run again, by a separate lab, using much-improved computer technology. Not only did they confirm that there were four shots fired, they increased the likelihood from the original lab's guess of around 90% to well over 99%.

[maveric]

172. I watched it and there is still NO WAY 1 bullet can cause 7 wounds.

No Fucking Way!
Do more research and dont be fooled by what they want you to beleive.

[nolabels]

189. Many facts are placed on what people BELIEVE very ignorantly

Science is also a anti-religion religion. Belief sometimes has worked to get things done in centuries past but mostly it is antiquated to another place in todays world. Today every thing has to exact as possible because there is no room for error, exaggerations or almost. The scientific dissection of other historic events are also now happening now simultaneously. The fraud that was 9/11, the chimp who is appointed and the fake economic boom by over-leveraged borrowing is also going to get the light of day sooner or later

[UpInArms]

230. 2.8 feet tall - hmmmm..... approximately the height of a kneeling man .eom

[Stand and Fight]

253. I have seen the program, and I disagree with you completely. n/t

[FreedomAngel82]

87. I believe that too

I remember seeing an interview with one of Ruby's family members and I don't buy their story. According to the one interviewed (maybe a brother or cousin, something like that) Ruby wanted to kill Oswald for killing Kennedy and he just had rage. This person said Ruby loved Kennedy (not that type of love but admiration) and didn't want people to think that their faith of people didn't hate Kennedy. I can't remember if they were Jews or Catholics or what they were. This was a while back when I saw the interview.

[EVDebs]

260. Website and new book with more on the JFK murder

The Zapruder Film or the autopsy photos or both have been altered:

JFK assassination film hoax
The wound mistake

http://www.assassinationscience.com/johncostella/jfk/intro/wound.html

Also, read Joan Mellen's important new book A Farewell to Justice
www.joanmellen.net/

The CIA pulled this one off, but they can't escape the truth.

[villager]

2. so the Jack Ruby stripper who knew about the killing in advance...

...was just a coincidence?

[ret5hd]

3. wow...i'm mighty proud of 'em...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[slackmaster]

4. It was a good show, very credible IMO

Bullets can do some bizarre things under the right conditions.

Once I was at sea on a Navy dependent cruise, 12 days from Pearl Harbor to San Diego. After an afternoon machine gun shoot in the middle of the ocean, a sailor found the jacket of a spent 5.56 mm tracer bullet on one of the upper decks of the ship. All of the day's shooting was done in a manner that should not have resulted in anything coming back at our ship, but somehow that one ended up where it "could not possibly" have been.

[rinsd]

21. I thought it was very interesting and it doesn't disprove JFK consipracies

All that show proved is that the bullet trajectory was possible and blows some holes in Garrison's famous speech.

[Justice Is Comin]

39. It does however

because there were only three shots. And those are all accounted for by Oswald.

[rinsd]

47. Ahhhh but even a lone gunman could be part of a larger conspiracy (nt)

[Zynx]

61. Exactly. There is nothing in terms of physical evidence that disproves

that theory. Oswald could have easily been set up and then sold out.

[FreedomAngel82]

91. I highly believe that is the case

Oswald was the scapegoat. He claimed over and over that he didn't do it. Don't psycho killers like that usually take the blame and gleet over it?

[Justice Is Comin]

70. I don't

disagree with you there. If we only knew what we don't know about everything.

[rinsd]

85. "If we only knew what we don't know about everything."

LOL.

What an outstanding pharse, says everything and nothing.

[rman]

171. "As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know...

...We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones that we don’t know we don’t know."
- Donald Rumsfeld

[Ian David]

5. Maybe there wasn't a conspiracy, but a coincidence

Maybe two assassins showed-up on the same day purely by chance.

[villager]

6. the parade route being changed at the last minute...

...was another happy coincidence, along with the two assassins, as well...

[Ian David]

26. Maybe the second assassin was trying to cover-up the lunar landing hoax

He would have had access to high-tech NASA equipment.

Perhaps even alien technology from Roswell.

He could have financed the whole operation by selling Nieman Marcus cookie recipies.

[villager]

29. sorry, one of his kidneys was stolen in Vegas, he couldn't...

...though still, in real actual life, there are anomalies: Take the last two stolen Presidential elections, just for starters...

[Ian David]

34. Exactly. That's why I hate the stupid conspiracy theories

When people see nonsense posted here, they tend to discount us as a bunch of kooks and don't pay attention to the real conspiracies.

Stolen elections- Real
Secret explosive charges in The World Trade Center- Fake

[villager]

53. conspiracy around the 60's assassinations: real

Too many "coincidences" for there not to be. "Lone nuts" only targeting liberal/left leaders, etc.

[Ian David]

149. I'll give you "plausible" but "probably not provable"

[villager]

150. I'll give you "not brought to trial" yet, but in my book,

it's "most likely scenario..."

[Cetacea]

162. You can't prove a succesful conspiriacy. eom

[FreedomAngel82]

95. Correction

In the 9/11 attacks there were bombs. There are fire fighters proclaiming it.

[Ian David]

148. And witnesses are never wrong.

Someone must have missed the army of invisible elves that spent weeks carefully planting hundreds of charges in just the right places.

Because hitting a building with a 747 doesn't pack enough "oomph."

Thank you for making my point about looking silly.

[TrogL]

232. The map is not the territory

"sounds like a bomb" is not a bomb.
"falls like a demolished building" is not demolition.

[Cetacea]

166. but a minority of people believe that Oswald acted alone

So it is not nonsense to them. Not to mention the House Report, which concluded that it was more likely than not that there were at least two shooters. Kooks, all of them...
A believe that the election was stolen, but more people think that stolen elections are much kookier than the near-certain fact that there were many people involved in the JFK assasination.

[FreedomAngel82]

94. And also look at the route video

The Secret Service men didn't protect him at all! They allowed him to be unprotected by them while they were all at Johnson's car. Why weren't any around them?

[RagAss]

7. I never understood why one needed to equate multiple gunmen

with conspiracy....the more I pursued the truth about Lee Oswald the more convinced I became of conspiracy in the case of JFK's murder. In my opinion, the use of more than one shooter would have been a tactical blunder in a planned assasination.....

[villager]

9. just the one faked Oswald, then?

He must've been a helluva marksman, however...

[Zynx]

221. Fired three times inside a hundred yards, missed completely twice.

Not actually very good shooting considering he was aiming at the head in the first place, so the body shot was a miss, and a pretty wide one at that.

[TX-RAT]

231. He was hit twice

once through the torso, once through the head.

[Zynx]

237. I said the body shot was a miss considering where he was aiming.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

8. How did they explain . . .

. . . the fact that the back of JFK's head was a massive exit wound?

Or that everyone on the street that day heard shots from near the underpass?

And smelled cordite (that wouldn't have been smelled if the shots were from near the top of a building?)

Sorry but the list against the pristine magic bullet just goes on and on . . .

[villager]

10. and never mind the "coincidental" "suicides" and "accidents"

...of many of those witnesses within three years of the assassination...

My Goodness, some methods of the BFEE are tried and true...

[CrazyOrangeCat]

12. Yes, and one of their most potent weapons . . .

. . . is total intimidation/manipulation of the media.

There was a coup that day.

From which this country (and the world) still reels.

Lone madman, my ass.

[villager]

15. complete agreement

we live the shadow, the fallout, of those 60's elite/government-planned assassinations. Still.

[JuniperLea]

20. And I guess they are still fooling people

I wish I'd seen that documentary!

I don't believe all of what any network tries to tell me. Discovery Channel, History Channel... they try to seem so perfect, so dead on correct about everything. We as a race of people living in this 21st century don't know jack shite. A drop of water is all we know in comparison to the vast oceans.

I'm an open minded skeptic, if you get my drift.

[FreedomAngel82]

102. It'll come on again

I've seen it on at least two/three times so you'll catch it. It might even come on later tonight around mignight or so. Just keep an eye open. I've been a researcher of the assisination for years and enjoyed this program. They did a very good and crediable job of this. It wasn't just a bunch of "consperiacy theorists" either sitting and chatting with each other.

[i miss america]

127. Abso-fukkin-lutely!!!

[RagAss]

19. Lone Agent...not lone madman.....nothing but vague tales

have been told about the life of Oswald....Mailer came the closest in his book Oswald's Tale to uncovering the man's life...but even he couldn't break through the bullshit and silence of the people who knew him both here and in the USSR...the first media lie about him was that he was a loner....what a fucking joke....

[Bjornsdotter]

59. Coup, coup

....my small homage to Bill Hicks.

Cheers!

[Hailtothechimp]

269. I wish Bill Hicks was still alive.

Of course, he'd be locked up in Guantanamo by now. But he would get people's attention.

[Zynx]

77. You don't need to believe total garbage to believe a conspiracy.

It's very possible that Oswald was sold out by whoever formed the conspiracy.

[villager]

84. one of the Oswalds, anyway...

n/t

[Justice Is Comin]

16. Until you see the program

we're coming from unequal perspectives. Once you can duplicate the shot, the wounds, debunk the fact that there were four shots, even account for the three degree raise in the pavement where the limo was, you are grasping at paper tigers to continue to believe.

My suggestion is to watch the program. They were just as surprised. They wanted to validate the impossibility. They did just the opposite. The bullet didn't stop, didn't turn in mid air, none of the assumptions. It is all explained.

[bullimiami]

22. i saw the show several weeks back and it didnt convince me that we know

the truth about what happened.

there are so many other oddities that just debunking the magic bullet or grassy knoll doesnt resolve everything.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

23. Unequal perspectives, yes.

I'll try to watch this thing, okay?

Maybe you'll read . . . oh, for starters, "A farewell to justice" by Joan Mellon. An in-depth, week-long read that penetrates the shreaded documents, "suicides", and intimidated witnesses that the CIA operatives found necessary to cover the biggest lie of the century.

I've got to try to concentrate on SOTU protests right now. Carry on.

[regnaD kciN]

31. Simply not true...

Once you can duplicate the shot, the wounds, debunk the fact that there were four shots, even account for the three degree raise in the pavement where the limo was, you are grasping at paper tigers to continue to believe.

As I stated earlier, even if the path of that one supposed bullet could be proven, it wouldn't change the fact that acoustic evidence proves (with the same margin of certainty as DNA evidence, BTW) that there were four shots from two different weapons.

[Justice Is Comin]

"Accoustic" evidence

is sound evidence I assume you're referring to. They duplicated with great attention to be as exact as possible the crowd noise that would have been there.

The accoustic evidence is always linked by ANYBODY'S account as being originated from the motorcycle cop behind the limo. The Discovery team of experts in the special proved that the cop could not have been in the location he would have had to be, to record the four shot scenario, with his open radio.

He would have been in a different place than required for him to record what the four shot theory absolutely requires. Nothing else has ever been put forth by anybody that recorded anything except that cops "open" radio. What has been deduced by those who say there were four shots could not have been possible.

[misternormal]

109. I am sure...

... That with the proper equipment, a sound engineer could have you convinced that JFK was shot with an uzi...

The recreation was the subjective brainchild of their own suppositions and creativity. Hat's off though, they convinced at least one person.

[Individualist]

137. Hear, hear!

I watched the first part of that BS, and it was obvious that circumstances were being manipulated by propaganda teevee. You're exactly right with your statement that the recreation was the subjective brainchild of their own suppositions and creativity. Incidentally, one of those "intelligent" sound engineers spelled Lincoln as "Lincon".

[BuyingThyme]

75. Not true. They proved that the bullet would have stopped

before entering the Governor's thigh. (They disproved the single bullet theory, then lied about it.)

[Zynx]

78. That didn't really disprove it.

The rest of it worked perfectly. Slight variences could easily account for what they showed.

[BuyingThyme]

81. You just debunked the show.

Even with a boneless wrist, the bullet would have stopped dead.

They chose to ignore their own results because they didn't get the results they planned on getting.

[Zynx]

That wasn't a boneless wrist.

Were you even watching the show?

[BuyingThyme]

97. What was in the wrist gel?

And why do you need to ignore the results?

[Justice Is Comin]

107. Nothing like getting the facts right, right?

Buying Thyme, it was ribs. The bullet they shot broke two ribs. The Oswald bullet only broke one rib. Theirs breaking two ribs, slowed the bullet enough that it did not have the velocity to penetrate the thigh "material."

Otherwise it would have done exactly what the "magic" bullet did.

[BuyingThyme]

116. Okay, Mr. Facts. Are you saying that there was no wrist

material used? What are you saying? Did you see the show?

How do you know how things "would" have happened? Are you just making things up as you go along?

[Justice Is Comin]

147. In fact,

they put FOUR bones in the wrist to make sure that the bullet would hit one because Connally's hand was hid in the Zapruder film. And they knew that the bullet had hit a wrist bone. They needed to account for that and did it by simulating more bones.

So maybe that will be enough facts for you. Probably not.

[BuyingThyme]

153. But Fact Person, you just said it was the ribs.

You went through all that crap about he ribs, and now you're telling me you went through all the crap about the ribs because of something about the wrist? Why did you bring up the ribs again?

How 'bout we just cut to the chase and you let me know what you're up to here.

ON EDIT: Please do the people reading this a favor. Admit that this stupid show is the first time you've been exposed to this stuff. And, while I saw this program long ago, I don't recall anything about the test bullet hitting any bone-type material in the test wrist; so if you actually have information about this, please let us know. Otherwise, please make a correction.

[JuniperLea]

103. Have you ever considered

That perhaps you watched a clever bit of propaganda? I've seen very convincing documentaries that prove without question that there could not have been one bullet. Extremely convincing. Just as convincing as was the documentary you watched.

All I can say is I am suspicious. You cannot fire a bullet from a rifle without causing some change. No bullet once fired is pristine. Ever.

Can you give the title of said documentary? I want to see it.

[FreedomAngel82]

108. Oh yes

I expect Kennedy to have a wound in his neck and then that same bullet blow his brains and hit the governor. Uh huh. Right. And George Bush didn't steal the election. :eyes:

[Justice Is Comin]

125. I think it was called

"Beyond the magic bullet."

You have to judge for yourself the credibility of their intent. If you believe that the investigation to prove or disprove a fallacy is another conspiracy in itself, well...you can go on forever that way.

[Zynx]

41. Because the back of his head is not an exit wound.

If you've ever shot an animal with a hunting rifle you would know. If it was an exit wound, the explosion of brain matter would have been out the back and not the front. Any ballistics expert worth his salt would tell you that.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

43. The explosion of brain matter WAS out the back!

It landed all over the trunk of the Lincoln and Elm Street behind the car. The man was shot from the FRONT! That is EXACTLY what we're saying here.

And yeah, I've killed animals with guns. Big deal.

Watch the film of the assassination, okay? You'll find that we are in agreement.

[Zynx]

50. I've seen the film of the assassination more times than I would

care to admit and I have never seen how anyone could conclude that the bullet went from his forehead to the back of his skull. The direction of the brain matter coming out of the right-front quadrant of his skull in the Zapruder Film shows a direction that is up from and in front of his skull.



I'm looking for a frame by frame version that I have found before, but even so I see no evidence to conclude this outrageous notion that the entry wound came from the front. It simply is not in accordance with basic physics of gun shots.

[rinsd]

54. Ugh..

...though sometimes graphic presentation is necessary.

I too always thought the front/side of his head explodes and that people would argue about the shifitng of his head as if hit from the front.

[Zynx]

58. A gunshot is a very traumatic event for the body, particularly close

to the center of your nervous system. In a frame by frame, his head actually first moves forward and then back as his nervous system goes into complete shock. When I've shot animals, their bodies do strange things.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

63. There's gray matter all over the trunk.

In later frames.

But maybe you're right. I can hardly get adamant about something when I was only four years old at the time. Maybe some older people who were in the Plaza that day will weigh in.

Cheers.

[Zynx]

67. Yes, there is brain matter on the trunk because some brain matter blew

straight into the air from the wound as can be seen on a frame by frame basis. As this portion of the matter fell, it fell onto a vehicle that was moving underneath, thus hitting the trunk. This isn't that unbelievable. It's just physics.

[MadHound]

173. Then explain the physics of the blood soaked motorcycle cop

The motor cycle cop, who was to the back and left of the Kennedy limo was covered, not sprayed, but covered with blood and brain matter. His statement is that he was picking not bits and pieces of Kennedy's brain off of him, but larger pieces. The wound in the back of Kennedy's head is an EXIT wound, the blood and brain matter went out BEHIND Kennedy(as did a large enough portion of Kennedy's brain/skull that Jackie was scrambling on the trunk to recover it) That Zapruder film clearly shows, on a frame by frame analysis that Kennedy's head went back, and to the left.

No shot from behind could have possibly done that to Kennedy, none.

[aikoaiko]

182. an example

[MadHound]

183. Cute, but misleading

First off, there is a hell of a lot of difference between a bullet going through an apple and one going through a skull. Second of all, this picture was taken a micro-second after it struck the apple, thus we aren't seeing the splatter pattern spread out yet, or even emerge fully. Note how the entry "wound" seems much less dense, more spread out? Now look at the exit "wound". Note that there is a large amount of material coming out of the apple, how dense that material is? That means that the spatter is going to be a hell of a lot bigger than than what came out the front.

You can fool a lot of people with still pictures taken a microsecond after the fact, but you can't fool everybody. Again, I call this bogus and BS. Go out and get a cow's head, and set up the same experiment. Then give us frame by frame of the next five seconds. Then you'll see the real deal.

[Spider Jerusalem]

184. .....

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/exploded.htm

[MadHound]

199. And convieniently, they, and you, forget to mention that there was

At least two other shots that would spread blood and viscera all over the front, shots that came from behing and naturally would carry material forward, to the front seat and dash.

Time and again people try to defy physics in order to prove that Oswald was the lone nut gunman. The trouble is that physics cannot be defied. Tell you what, go out to your local slaughterhouse and pick up a hog's head. Take it home and fire a high velocity(or even low velocity) round at it. Do it again and again, however long it takes to convince yourself. You will find that time and again, the entrance wound is small and round, while the exit wound will blow the back of the skull off, carrying the vast majority of viscera to the back. Also, time and again, you will see the kinetic energy of the bullet drive the head towards the direction opposite of where your shot comes from, much like Kennedy's head going back, and to the left in the Zapruder film.

This is plain and simple physics friend, and trying to prove otherwise only means one thing, you want to suspend reality in order to fit your theory. The same mistake that the Warren Commission made.

[Spider Jerusalem]

201. I'm not the one ignoring physics. Or simple evidence, for that matter.

A massive quantity of the man's brain exited his skull to the right front. Causing him to move back and to the left. VERY simple physics. (I trust you've heard of Newton's Third Law?)


Individual frames from Z-film: JFK before the fatal headshot.



The headshot itself: (note direction of travel of visible fragments)



The aftermath: (note that the rear of the head is evidently still intact; it is the right front quarter of the skull that was blown out. There's an obvious fragment of skull attached to a scalp flap, and a massive concavity. Given JFK's position at the instant of the shot--slumped forward, head down--this is consistent with a shot from the REAR. No shot from in front could have done this.)

[MadHound]

204. Sorry pal, but you're full of it,

And all of the pseudo-scientific crap that you spew won't make your case for you. You are ignoring the X-rays showing the BACK of Kennedy's head blown out, you are ignoring the testimony of the doctors that attended Kennedy in Dallas, who said that the back of Kennedy's head was blown out, and your attempt to make still pictures tell a different story than the movie that they came from is simply pathetic. You are stating that brain matter, exiting from the front, somehow overcame the huge amount of energy imparted by the bullet and forced Kennedy's head to the back? What, the brain matter was jet propelled? First off, that would require a vast amount of brain matter, and as seen in the Z film, and as testified to by witnesses, the vast majority of brain matter went to the rear, consistent with a shot to the head.

I'm sorry friend, while you may be willing to suspend your disbelief, the vast majority of us prefer to live in the reality based world, where the laws of physics work, and where a shot from the front propels Kennedy's head to the back and left, not jet propelled brain matter.

[Spider Jerusalem]

210. The x-rays show no such thing;

just because cursory examination of same by amateurs appears to show something doesn't mean it's so.

The eyewitness testimony of the emergency room physicians and attendants at Parkland Hospital is contradictory on several points from one observer to the other, and as such is not reliable; given the confusion and urgency of the moment, when they thought there might still be the slimmest of chances to save Kennedy's life, this is understandable. However, given that fact, I have to say that I trust the observations of the pathologists at the autopsy, who were in no such state of haste and confusion and were able to make detailed observations at length. (and there's the obvious location of the wound in the frames of the Z-film I posted, which you ignore for some reason, and which is inconsistent with the claimed wound to the back of the head.)

You also apparently have an exceptionally limited understanding of what a bullet striking a human body actually does; the kinetic energy imparted by even a high-velocity .50 calibre rifle round (which the 6.5mm Carcano decidedly isn't) is insufficient to cause the reaction observed in Kennedy's "back and to the left" movement. Also, if one looks at individual frames of the Z-film, and compares frame 312 (the instant before the headshot) and frame 313 (the instant the headshot struck) it is QUITE obvious that Kennedy's head has moved FORWARD several inches, NOT back (in a span of a fraction of a second, consistent, again, with a shot from behind).

And your comments about "trying to make still frames tell a different story" is utterly laughable; there are things one can see in a single frame, or series of frames, of a film that occur too quickly for the human eye to perceive. (The forward motion of skull fragments at the moment of impact, for instance.)

And you seem incapable of debating the evidence without engaging in personal attack--your instantaneous resort to ad hominem makes it rather obvious that any attempt to engage you in rational and reasoned discussion of the issue is futile. One would suggest that you learn some manners.

[MadHound]

213. My goodness, where do you come across this BS

Please, stop it, you're embarrassing yourself friend. You are trying to tell me that the X-rays DON'T show the back of Kennedy's head blown out, even though it is obvious to us "amateurs", and the various radiologists who examnined X-ray in question, both at the time and in the years subsequent, that indeed it does show that the back of Kennedy's head IS blown out.

And you are flat out making shit up out of thin air when you state that the physicians and attendants were contradictory and at odds on this matter. They weren't friend, as both their testimony and written notes state, the back of Kennedy's head WAS gone.

Instead, you prefer the view of the people who did the autopsy at Walter Reed. Doctors who had never done an autopsy, who in fact had very limited knowledge of forensic procedures, and who were being constantly hounded, countermanded and stifled by admirals, generals and others who were in the room with them, essentially telling them what they could and could not put down in their report. Wow, OK, whatever.

Yes, I have a very limited knowledge of what a bullet does to a human body, since I've never shot a human. But having hunted many times, I do have a good working knowledge of what a bullet does to any body. And I have yet to see any animal fall towards the direction from which the bullet came, the energy of the bullet always forces the animal back, away from the direction which the bullet came from. And one does not need a 50 cal bullet to do this. Go out hunting rabbits with a twenty two, and you will see the same thing. Any attempt to deny this basic law of physics is asking people to disbelieve reality, something that I'm not in the practice of doing.

And please, in this day and age of the internet and mass communication, stop using the copy of the Z film that Time doctored up, OK. If you get an undoctored copy, and there are plenty of them out there, you will clearly see Kennedy's head moved back, and to the left at the time of the lethal shot. And the reason I'm criticizing your still frames is because they only tell part of the story. You're pointing out the spatter coming from the front, while not showing all of the much larger spatter coming out of the back of Kennedy's head a split second later, including the back of Kennedy's skull which Jackie picked up off the TRUNK of the limo, not the front or seat.

And I'm not attacking you personally, despite what you say. However I do become incensed whenever people continue to flog the "official" story, despite the fact that the Warren Commission and the magic bullet theory have long been discredited. Or have you not heard, the US government itself declared the Kennedy assasination the work of a conspiracy over a quarter century ago. I always have to question the motives and agenda of people who persist in believing the "official" story, despite the mountain of evidence that contradicts it. So, what is your motives and agenda friend? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Spider Jerusalem]

215. I have no "agenda".

Unless application of logic, and exercise of critical thinking, suddenly constitute an "agenda".

What you're saying is utterly illogical; you say the Zapruder film was "doctored"; you also say it's evidence of conspiracy. Considering that the film was sold to the Time-Life Company by Abraham Zapruder and the lone print was in their possession for some time, if THEIR copy (which is to say, the original) was "doctored", then ALL OF THEM are.

The X-rays show a massive wound to the top right and front of the skull. NOT to the back; anyone who claims otherwise is at best misinterpreting evidence. See http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/xray/ , and also http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/head.htm .

As to the supposed testimony of the eyewitnesses at Parkland Hospital, it WAS contradictory, and most of them later admitted themselves that they were mistaken. See http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100parkland.html .

Then you have the testimony of eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza, the majority of whom described the wound as being in the top or right side of the skull and not the back. See http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpwound.htm . (Including the motorcycle cop whose gore-spattering is presented as supposed "evidence" of a shot from in front; see http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hargis.htm .)



Given your wilful ignorance of so much evidence that clearly contradicts what you WANT to believe, one can only wonder what YOUR agenda is.

[MadHound]

224. Check these out and get back to me

It is well known that both the Nix and Zapruder film were tampered with at the time.<http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/07/Daeron/.03-2faq.html> Fortunately the original print survived intact, and we can now see the original itself. The Zapruder family purchased it back from time, and recently re-released a very clean copy of the original. You can buy it on DVD, I suggest you do so and stop dealing with these poor quality, doctored copies.

As for the X-rays you reference, well here are a couple of photos to refute your point.
<img src="" alt="Image hosting by Photobucket">
Where is this massive head wound you claim to be in the front right? This is a pretty clear picture, and I don't see any such wound as you claim.

<img src="" alt="Image hosting by Photobucket">
Oops, there it is, in the BACK of Kennedy's skull. Hmmm, how did that get there?

And while I could go on and on about how your primary source, John McAdams, is full of it, I'll just reference this page <http://ourworld-top.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id151.htm> and you can see for yourself the sloppy, unscientific way he approaches this whole matter. In essence, he starts out with the conclusion he wants to get, and works back from there. Very very poor methodology, and it is foolish to take anything this man says with anything other than a HUUUUGE grain of salt.

And while the magic bullet theorists continue to dominate the airwaves, pumping out the propaganda from so long ago, those who wonder otherwise have precisely, doggedly and scientifically built up an entirely different version of events that completely contradicts the Warren Commission findings. For there is massive evidence of a conspiracy, extending to events outside of Dealy Plaza. How did papers in New Zealand, a good eighteen hours ahead of the US time zone, manage to come up with not only who the assasian was, but a nice looking picture and detailed biography of Oswald, before he was even charged with killing Kennedy? Who are these multiple other Oswalds that appeared around and about in the months leading up to the assasination? Photographs show that they bear little resemblence to the Oswald that was killed, but were using his ID anyway. And if Oswald was the killer, how in the hell did he arrange for a last minute change of the motorcade route in order to have it roll right past his place of employment? I'm sorry friend, but these are matters that Oswald couldn't control by himself, he had to have had help, and such help means a conspiracy.

Even the decidely unfriendly, non-conspiratorial minded House Sub Committee on Assasination(who was tasked to put to bed all those pesky conspiracy theories) was finally so overwhelmed by valid, scientific evidence that they were forced to declare that indeed the Kennedy assasination was a conspiracy.

But hey, if it brings you comfort and closure to believe a biased nutcase like John McAdams and others like him, fine. But I prefer to dwell in the reality based world, where things aren't neat and tidy, and scientific evidence is respected, not thrown out because it doesn't fit a pre-concieved conclusion. And interestingly enough, given the polls shown the vast majority of Americans do believe that the Kennedy assasination was a conspiracy, it seems that most Americans also tend to live in the reality based world. Perhaps you should consider joining them.

[doublethink]

225. Hey MadHound ......

They always stop talking to you when they CAN'T explain something don't they? :rofl: I'm having the same problem with the original poster of this thread. Anyway show Spider Jerusalem the Autopsy photos linked in my post #180. Especially the second picture in the link. It clearly shows the back of the head blown out. And if you can Rec this thread, it only needs one more vote to get on the 'G' page. I want to give the OP a bit more time to answer me if they care to before this thread drops into oblivion. Peace. :)

[Spider Jerusalem]

233. I haven't "stopped talking".

Sorry. Insults, personal attacks, distortions of evidence and wild speculation aren't enough to get rid of me; you'll have to try harder.

And I've SEEN the autopsy photos. They don't show what you think they do.

Also, if you have something to say ABOUT me, then say it TO me. Not to someone else. It's INCREDIBLY fucking rude to make snide comments about someone in asides to other people in a public forum; didn't your mother teach you any manners?

[doublethink]

251. Sorry if you took that personally.

I didn't mean to be rude to you, and I apologize. I respect all opinions on this discussion board. But resorting to unwarranted cussing is uncalled for. And on that note your own mother should have washed your mouth out with soap. :rofl: Hey lighten up! We're both on DU to promote the truth, but not everyone here has to agree on ever subject though. This discussion was between you and MadHound, and it has been my experience not to get too involved in someone else's debate. Sorry you took my tactics wrong. Peace on that. :hi: As to why you can't see the back of the Presidents skull blown out in picture #2 on the link on thread #180 here is beyond me though. All the best and Peace to you. :)

[Spider Jerusalem]

229. Point by point:

Your assertions that the film was in some way altered are so ridiculous as to not merit mention; if it HAD been altered, why is it consistent with eyewitness testimony, the autopsy findings, the skull x-rays, and so on?

The autopsy photos don't show a wound to the back of the head. What they show is that the flap of scalp clearly visible in the Zapruder film has been closed over the wound.

Here's a picture from the autopsy of the back of the head (which, oddly enough, is STILL THERE, as you can see; the evident damage in this photograph is entirely consistent with what can be seen in the Zapruder film, which you continue to claim was altered because what it shows doesn't fit with what you want to believe):



There's no evidence that there were "multiple other Oswalds"; what the evidence shows is that several people claimed to have seen someone they SAID was Oswald, who turned out NOT to have been. Which is hardly the same thing, and is just another illustration of the unreliability of eyewitness testimony.

The idea that Oswald carefully PLANNED, long in advance, to kill Kennedy, is on the face of it absurd; the evidence suggests he saw the motorcade route in the newspaper (three days before the assassination) and decided to kill JFK. Just for the hell of it. This is NOT a hyper-rational, calm, collected man we're talking about; Oswald was an emotionally unstable lunatic, prone to violent outbursts, a wife-beater and rapist, and a man who had already attempted to kill someone (General Edwin Walker) mere months before...almost everything that's known of his character indicates that he was capable of the act with little premeditation. You may find it incredible that the most powerful man in the world was killed by a psychotic loser with a cheap rifle for no real reason; that doesn't mean it couldn't have or didn't happen. Apparently your worldview doesn't admit for coincidence (which sounds pretty damned unrealistic to me; in real life, coincidences happen ALL THE TIME).

It seems that it's the conspiracists who start with a conclusion and search for evidence to support it; I used to believe in a conspiracy, myself, but the weight of evidence on the other side is too great for me to sustain that belief.

And I DO live in the "reality-based world", despite your continued insulting assertions to the contrary; I'm not the one "throwing out" scientific evidence (multiple analyses of recovered bullet fragments and the so-called "magic" bullet that match them to Oswald's gun, the photographic evidence of the Zapruder film, et cetera) to support a conclusion; YOU are. What was that about the "reality-based world" again? You seem to have (unsurprisingly) a rather limited grasp of the difference between belief and truth; the majority of Americans believe there's a god, and that Iraq had something to do with 9/11. Doesn't mean they're right.

[MadHound]

257. *Sigh*

So I suppose we come down to this. You are going to continue to believe, in spite of the reams of scientific evidence, in spite of all of the photographic evidence, in spite of the fact that the Magic Bullet violates several laws of physics, despite that the US government admitted long ago that the Kennedy assasination was indeed a conspiracy, in spite of the fact that several matters that Oswald could not control indeed happened(New Zealand papers, change of parade route, etc. etc.), in spite of this mountain of evidence to the contrary, you are going to continue to believe the "official" story. Fine, it is your right to do so.

However I ask you to continue to research this, to follow up those little niggling questions that gnaw at the back of your brain. Do not just automatically close down such curiosity, for without that, you will never, ever discover the truth.

Peace.

[Dan]

271. sorry, wrong head

[DemonFighterLives]

264. I agree with you completely and have been over this before

with the same gang. I think there is an agenda and I think dubco pays them for everytime they stand up for the official version.
Every make believe story that has come out since has only been to reinforce the official version and we are losing ground as more and more people take the company line as truth.
:thumbsup:

[TX-RAT]

236. Your wasting your time Spider

Some people choose to believe what they want, in spite of the obvious evidence. Step over them or around them, but keep going forward.

[Spider Jerusalem]

241. Yeah...

you'd think I'd have learned that by now. Oh, well.

[doublethink]

222. Please see Autopsy Photo's from link in post #180.

The front of Kennedy's Skull, is intact, His Face is still there. It is the back of the skull which is blown out. Follow that thread from there. All the best, Peace. :)

[Spider Jerusalem]

239. ...

Forensic artist's rendering of the bullet trajectory and wound:



Which is consistent with what is visible in this photo from the autopsy:



And these frames from the Zapruder film:





Not the back, not the front, but the top right of the skull. Z-film and the autopsy photo from the rear clearly show the back of the head is INTACT.

[Liberal OIF Vet]

242. That photo is fake....

It totally does not jibe with the other autopsy phots I have seen. Also, care to know where JFK's brain is? It seems to be missing. What could the brain tell us about the trajectories? Lots. I wonder how that would go missing.

[Spider Jerusalem]

244. Is the film fake, too?

What you think you see in the other photos is an illusion. There's a large flap of scalp that's partly closed over the wound; the autopsy pictures taken with JFK's corpse lying on its back, it hangs down under its own weight, giving the APPEARANCE of a wound in the back of the skull that actually isn't there.

[Liberal OIF Vet]

245. Not buying it....

So the doctors in Dallas that swore that the throat wound was an entry wound and the massive exit wound in the back of the head are wrong?

[JuniperLea]

80. Lurching back... if shot from the back, he would have been blown forward

And if you know anything at all about the way bullets behave when they hit bone, you can see clearly how a bullet can move about inside a skull.

[rinsd]

89. Okay....

So the bullet entered the front of his skull bounced off the back of his skull and blew the front out?

[Zynx]

101. And apparently I supposedly believe in the "magic bullet theory".

Somehow the bullet they speak of came in the front and caused an explosion of brain matter pointed towards the front and exited the rear of his skull consistent with an entry wound.

The evidence that I have seen shows the following:
-The "magic bullet" followed a perfectly legitimate path from Kennedy's neck to the governor's chest and from there on since the alignment of the seats was not what is commonly presented.
-The head shot was completely consistent with a bullet coming from the rear as evidenced by the explosion of brain matter from the right-front quadrant of his skull. A bullet from the front causing the same effect is not possible.

[JuniperLea]

110. That spray you see, regardless where it is

is an exit wound. Spray = exit wound.

[Zynx]

114. Exactly and it is in the right-front quadrant of the skull.

There we have it.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

130. You would think that the docs at Parkland would have seen

& described such a horrible wound coming out of the right-front
quadrant of the skull. Instead at the news conf right
after the assassination, they described two wounds--what appeared
to be a small entrance in the throat, and a massive wound in the
right-REAR of the head, which one doc described as "tangential." No
mention of the hideous right-front quadrant exit wound we see
in Zapruder. Odd.

[doublethink]

180. Please Show These Autopsy Photos to Zynx ....

If you guys have the stomach for it and continue your discussion ...Graphic Link here ..... http://www.celebritymorgue.com/jfk/jfk-autopsy.html

Ask Zynx why the President's front right part of his skull is still intact? And the Back is blown out? Curious? :shrug: By the Zepruder film presented it would seem the front right part of his skull shouldn't be there in the autopsy photos? And that seems to be the case Zynx is presenting here? Motion pictures can present strange effects on the human eye, blur, shadows, the the fact that it's 16 mm, grainy etc... etc... it's called optical illusion. Peace, and I will understand if you two don't want to click on the autopsy photos. Peace.

note: google (images) 'Kenedy Autopsy Photos' and draw your own conclusions from other sources.

[JuniperLea]

194. Gee... two entrance wounds with one bullet

One in the front (throat) and one in the back.

Yep, that single bullet is magic.


Edited to say no wonder there is so much confusion in this discussion. The autopsy photos show something completely different than the Warren Report. I have a copy of that report and even with my skepticism, for some reason, I was shocked (again) at seeing the photos. The report drawings and the photos have nothing in common. Yet I remembered the drawings. More magic:) This would show why there was a lurching both forward and back, conclusively in my mind, without any assumption that there was some bodily reaction... which is the only thing they have to go on. An assumption. Gee.

[doublethink]

216. Going deeper ....

here's a simple explanation of 'the confusion'. The Dallas Doctors originally examined an entrance head wound just above the upper right temple ... and Kennedy's corpse was whisked away without an autopsy being performed in Dallas, which under Texas law at the time was supposed to be done in Dallas. Conflicting documentation followed, and so the cover up was well underway, and the rest is history. :( ... You can kinda see the the entrance wound of the head in the second photography of the link I provided in post #180. The Triangular shape at the beginning of the hairline. Overall the original initial examination of the Dallas Doctors is more consistent with what a bullet would do. And the pictures show this, a small entrance wound in front and the blowout of the back of the skull when the bullet left. Here's three explanations given, in order of time line ... by the time the 'official' explanation was given well, you know. The other wounds too .... officially placed .... to fit the policy, kinda DSM'ish..... ????????????????? Peace. :)

[JuniperLea]

220. Three views... typical

From the photos you can clearly see brain matter coming from the exit wound which is behind the right temple. And you can see the throat entry wound as a round wound as expected, with the cuts on either side for the trach. And you can clearly see the second entry wound on the upper back. Clear as day.

[doublethink]

223. Hey Juniperx ...

K and Recommend this thread, it only needs one more Rec. I'm still trying to get an answer from the Original Poster on a couple questions in this thread. Doesn't wanna talk to me for some reason? :shrug: ...... :) Hey I'm being nice to em too! Thanks! All the best and Peace. :)

[JuniperLea]

106. It's as likely as your theory that it

shattered bone yet remained pristine. Trajectory can change dependent on matter.

[Zynx]

93. First, in the first frame of impact his head moves slightly forward.

Secondly, the brain matter blows in an almost exclusively forward direction. If the bullet exited from the rear we would have seen a much different result.

[cureautismnow]

161. "Slightly Forward," perhaps, because...

...he was sitting in the car writhing in @#$%^&* pain! Excuse my fricking manners, but I'll be damned if I'm going to maintain a perfect posture, while seconds before, someone has shot a bullet through my back or throat or wherever!

Could you bullet-laden remain in a relatively perfectly-still-state as the other "bullet-free occupants?!" Connally's posture changed a bit later, too, don't you think?

[JuniperLea]

195. There were two entrance wounds

One in the throat, one in the back.

[TX-RAT]

234. The round came from behind.

[Liberal OIF Vet]

240. Oh yeah?

Prove it. I have seen people shot in the head before and your head does not move in the direction of the shot.

[TX-RAT]

250. Heres the best way i can explain it.

You take a 5 gallon can, and fill it to the brim with water, replace the cap. Stand back 50 to 75 yards and shoot it with a high velocity round, 6.5, 308,7 mm and watch what happens. Even though the round comes from the front, poking a small entrance hole, the bullet (because of the uncompress-ability of water, create an explosive reaction, blowing out the back of the can sending it back in the direction of the shooter. It's a matter of fluid picking the path of least resistance.

This is very easy to duplicate, i suggest you try it. I've done it many times (just to show the explosive results of high-powered rounds), each time the can comes back toward the shooter.

[Liberal OIF Vet]

255. That works when you are dealing with metal and water....

But what about bone and brain?

[TX-RAT]

258. Its a matter of pressure following the path of least resistance.

Skull is a thin and fragile pressure vessel, Brains mostly water.

[JuniperLea]

64. You can clearly see skull fragments, hair and brain matter

in the Zapruder film. You can see the explosion off the back of his head, consistent with an exit wound. If his throat had been the exit wound, you would have seen a lot of blood in front. Any forensics person worth their salt could tell you that.

[Zynx]

71. The evidence doesn't show that at all.

Look at a frame by frame and you see the direction of the matter is to the front and up from the right-front quadrant. You are seeing pure fantasy. I don't even know what to say to people who see things that aren't there.

You can even see it in this video:

[Justice Is Comin]

82. Exactly Zynx.

I'm the world's expert in skepticism. I didn't want to believe there weren't others either. But when todays modern technology strips away all the "alleged" facts and debunks them one by one conclusively, it's time that you have to accept what really happened.

[Cetacea]

152. explain that to the police officer

The one who was behind Kennedy at the time (the one on the motorcycle) who was spattered with blood and brain matter. If I am not mistaken , he is the same officer who stated that the shot came from grassy knoll; he is the one shown (along with many other witnesses) running to wards the knoll, on lt to be turned away by "Secret Service" agents. Keep moving folks, nothing to hear.
If memory serves me correctly, he is the police officer who was later shot to death in his back yard by someone who thought he was a deer.
Did the Discovery channel special show the interviews with all of the medical people who worked on JFK's body right after the shootings? They all described a massive rear exit wound .
Kool aid TV

[rinsd]

72. Well I don't see the back exploding. I see the front/side

Has anyone done a 3-d mapping of it?

[Zynx]

74. It has been done and it shows the same thing.

People often refer to the fact that the back of his head has significant damage according to photographic evidence, but actually having read a book that showed autopsy photos it is just because the skull bone was crushed in the rear by the bullet coming in.

[FreedomAngel82]

98. Yes

And in the video when you see the people running a group of people are running to the fence in the grassy knoll because they're trying to catch the person who shot him. Quite frankly if you believe it was Lee Oswald you'd believe the earth was flat.

[Justice Is Comin]

158. You SAW the special.

If there was a shooter on the grassy knoll he would have had to be less than 3 feet tall. The comparative object analysis makes that ridiculous.

Either it was a midget or he had to be standing on a 16 foot ladder to have the line of sight for the shot.

[doublethink]

181. Please see post #135 .....

look at the first picture there, and tell me honestly, from your own observation since that 'wall' is 5ft tall ..... why on earth a shooter behind it would have to be less that 3 feet tall to get a shot off at the President? And please don't say "because the program on the Discovery Channel told you so". I would really like to know if you truly understood their explanation on this? Also, there is a fence line to the left of this wall also ..... I'm just saying? :shrug: The program last night was odd. All the best. Peace. :)

[doublethink]

217. Okay since you won't answer my question .....

it's obvious you 'don't know' and are just taking this Discovery channel explanation for it's word. That's too bad. One last thing, the Zepruder film was taken at the same 'level' up on the Grassy Knoll where any possible assassin might have been behind that wall. Shit Abraham Zepruder had a clear shot at the President if you watch the film! And he wasn't 3 feet tall! :rofl: But if you want to stick to this 3ft midget 'theory' okay go down to the fence line, crouch down so not to be seen, stick your barrel through the fence and blast away. Whatever dude, just believe what your told on the T vvvvvvvveeeee , and don't question anything. Peace. :)

[madeline_con]

111. AND, didn't LBJ say....

if he ever got killed, it would be "the way Jack did"... by the AR-15 of one of the trigger happy Secret Service guys?

[JuniperLea]

11. How did they explain away Kennedy's entrance and exit wounds?

An entry wound is small, clean and bullet sized. An exit wound is large and jagged, depending on what it's going through.

We all saw the back of Kennedy's skull blow off. How do they explain that being an entrance wound?

[sendero]

14. Not only was it blown off..

... it was blown off by a "pristine" bullet.

Yeah, right.

It really doesn't matter to me whether Oswald was the lone shooter or not, the idea that he was the only one involved is beyond ludicrous.

[rinsd]

24. I would watch the show...

...where they detail what they went through.

All they proved was that the magic bullet theory didn't need magic. That it was possible for a bullet fired from the same type of gun at the same height and distance using ballistic gel moldings of pople (with bones) in the same positions for the bullet to ricochet and fragment causing the wounds.

It says nothing about conspiracies etc.

[Justice Is Comin]

28. There were three shots.

The pristine bullet that fuels the conspiracy is not the head shot. The bullet that conspiracy theorists believe couldn't cause all 7 wounds to Kennedy and Connally entered Kennedy's back 5 inches below the neck and just to the right.

It went through his shoulder, ribs, lungs, and continued on to hit Connally causing his wounds.

[RagAss]

32. so what....one gunman = no conspiracy ???

forty men could have planned this coup and one man could have pulled the trigger....agree?

[Justice Is Comin]

96. That would be another subject altogether

that could have possibility. That may only come to valid justification for further investigation when the evidence is unsealed and declassified.

[regnaD kciN]

37. You can repeat that as often as you want; it still doesn't make it true...

There were four shots.

This has been firmly established by acoustic evidence. This evidence was enough to cause the 1979 House Committee to reverse-face and declare that JFK "was probably assassinated as part of a conspiracy."

Since then, there have been efforts to debunk said evidence by Warren Commission apologists. On the contrary, a more recent examination, made with vastly-improved technology, only added further support to the original lab's conclusion.

There were four shots.

Not three.

Four -- two of them too close together to have come from the same rifle.

Case closed.

[FreedomAngel82]

113. I have a video that has

James Earl Jones doing a special on the Kennedy assisination. He has witnesses talk about it and they all say they heard three/four shots. Then you see them running towards the grassy knoll. Not the room where Oswald supposivley was. Someone high up wanted him gone and did it. Look at all the strange things that happened that day that wasn't supposed to (such as the Secret Service men not protecting him which is against the rules).

[misternormal]

119. You're all wet...

The bullet was supposed to have entered JFK in the back... then out the front of his neck, as shown in the film, and then into Conally... get it right.

[stlsaxman]

13. When Gerald Ford passes away the Warren Commission becomes un-classified,

I believe. Sure Specter was an assistant working on the commission but he's wasn't on the board. Gerald Ford is the last living member of the Commission.

[hang a left]

17. That is if ** doesn't reclassify it.

[alittlelark]

18. bu*h will be there to re-classify it.

[FreedomAngel82]

122. I thought not because of Jackie?

In a thread I thought someone said that it wouldn't because of Jackie and she didn't want to know? Or is that not a part of the deal anymore since she too is gone?

[Broke In Jersey]

208. I thought it was classifed for 75 years by Teddy

Heard this a while back. Sorry I don't remember where. This was to keep private family wounds & sorrows.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

259. The period of time

Was fifty years.
That will be in 2013.

I am still curious as to why the second broadcast of the same report from Dallas was not the same as the first.

Is it correct that 3 tv news camera crews were following the motorcade?

Have we ever seen those reels of film?

Read the Warren Commision Report the day it issued, could not put it down.

And boy oh boy what a crock that book was...

[justabob]

27. How many of y'all have been to Dealey Plaza?

I only ask because everyone I have ever taken there can't believe that the Oswald/magic bullet story could possibly be true. I stopped worrying about it a long time ago, so I am certainly not trying to argue the OP, especially because I have not seen the Discovery program. I am just curious about what some of your impressions were.

[villager]

30. was there, and agree... you have essentially a point blank shot

from the Grassy Knoll. It's ridiculous. The vendors around the plaza even explain to visitors where the various "shooters" were...

[jimshoes]

42. Been there several times

While there may be an infinitesimal chance that the magic bullet theory is true. I personally think it's a ludicrous proposition. It's been a while but I was somewhat involved with some studies of my own (although not on that aspect of the assassination) and in collaberation with some other researchers mostly concerning the film evidence. None of whom put any credence in Specter's Magic Bullet Theory.

[MrSlayer]

45. I was there and immediately you can see the official story is ridiculous.

You simply have to go there to get perspective on it.

And there were more than three shots fired, you can hear that on the tape.

[justabob]

100. For you guys who have been there....another question

I was not yet born at the time of JFK's assassination and I still have this feeling.... When I go down there, I feel like the emotion of that day still hangs in the air... similar to what people say about old battlefields. Was it like that for y'all?

[jimshoes]

132. Having looked at many photos

of the plaza from all kinds of angles before ever going there, it was just as I had immagined it only I got there after dark and had never seen it at night. Kind of surreal but familiar just the same. The next day was sunny and bright and the Plaza while not gloomy by any stretch kind had a certain reverence about it. Later in the day when the peddlers come out it takes on a more tacky feel. Historic nonetheless.

[MrSlayer]

156. Yes, I was very sad when I was there.

Because the full realization of what these creeps got away with just hits you. It's just a feeling of tragedy and sadness that permeates the entire area. I wasn't born yet either but I was crushed and I can't explain why. Even my father, who did not like Kennedy at the time and always believed the single bullet theory took one look around and just said "No way".

What I did find amusing was the graffiti on the fence behind the grassy knoll. Lots of anti-Bush stuff, a lot of blaming poppy Bush for the assassination, lots of "The official story is bullshit" type stuff and of course a whole lot of well wishes and R.I.P.'s for President Kennedy.

[FreedomAngel82]

123. You mean there at the place or the event?

[justabob]

138. sorry misread post - delete

on THIRD edit.....egads... I think I need to stop for the night. I am not keeping up very well :)

[MrSlayer]

157. I mean that when you get to Dealey Plaza and the knoll area.

You just know the Oswald single shooter, magic bullet theory is preposterous. You have to go see it to know what I mean.

[zauberflote]

205. I've been there

I had the exact opposite reaction you did. The site is ideal for one gunman who wouldn't even have to move his rifle while firing off several shots. That's because the road slopes gently down directly down from the line of fire from the book depository window.
The angle of the slope, combined with the other forensic evidence, leads me to believe the single bullet theory is pretty accurate.

[LittleClarkie]

33. Moving straight to "bringing Bush to account" how do you explain

his recent quote saying that he doesn't think Bush is up for impeachment as it was an honest error. Conscience my ass.

[Justice Is Comin]

155. He's NOT up for impeachment.

Specter said on "This Week" that if he broke the law, the remedy is impeachment.

What you have to give him credit for is that he could have just blown off ideas of hearings as absurd. Just like that asshole in the House. He didn't do that.

And he's given democrats the opportunity to hammer witnesses with questions. Tell me how many other republicans would have done that.

If he does turn this into a dog and pony show, I'm going to be pissed. I just don't get that feeling. It may not end up in a referral to the House, but I think it's going to do a hell of a lot damage. We can take if from there.

[LittleClarkie]

163. I didn't see it, so I will bow to your sense

but I too will be pissed if he turns it into a dog and pony show.

[stopbush]

36. A good special that makes one think twice.

I've seen it before. HOWEVER:

"They also documented that any other shooter that would have been on the grassy knoll would have had to be 2.8 feet tall or 40 feet behind the retaining wall and standing on a 16 foot ladder."

Of course, they didn't pose an *obvious* third possibility: the second shooter was kneeling down behind the wall when he shot. That would have made him, er, about 3 feet high!

[Ian David]

38. Michael Shermer on Art Bell’s Coast to Coast AM radio show TONIGHT!

This Evening!
Michael Shermer on Art Bell’s
Coast to Coast AM radio show

Monday, January 23rd
11pm—2am, Pacific Standard Time

Tonight, Michael Shermer will appear on Art Bell‘s Coast to Coast AM national radio show. George Noory presents the “Skeptics Cage: Two go in, one comes out.” Michael Shermer will be debating one scientist each hour on various aspects of new scientific thought. The line-up: Dr. Gary Schwartz, Russell Targ, and Dean Radin. You can tune in live on AM radio stations across the US (free), XM radio channel 165, or you can pay for a subscription to the podcast from the Coast to Coast AM website.


http://www.coasttocoastam.com/info/wheretolisten.html

[WI_DEM]

44. Your brave to post this

and I actually do believe that the one-bullet could cause that much damage, but I still believe that Oswld didn't act alone--there were other higher-ups either the Cubans or the mob or a combination who put out a contract on JFK.

[FreedomAngel82]

129. Bingo

Start with Operation Northwoods. See this page http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com Also, try to find the film "JFK II- The Bush Connection."

[rpgamerd00d]

46. History Channel special proved Oswald was only shooter.

Everyone assumed that JFK was sitting directly behind and parallel to John Connally, at the same height.

Like this:

X    X

However, it was proven that JFK was further inside the car, and sitting physically higher (rear seat of the car was raised)

Like this:

X
     X

When you then trace the "magic bullet", it goes IN A DIRECT STRAIGHT LINE THRU JFK AND INTO CONNALLY.

Hardly "magic". More like SCIENCE.

[JuniperLea]

76. How do they explain that a bullet can shatter bone and

remain pristine? That just cannot happen! You can scratch bullet lead and make a good dent with a fingernail!

I have melted lead, poured it into bullet molds, greased them, put powder in a primed shell and inserted the projectile thousands of times. I know lead. I know lead bullets. Lead is very soft. There is no way in hell that it could shatter bone and come out pristine. No way at all. At the very, very least, there would be some flattening of the tip. And there would be rifling from the act of shooting it from a gun. Where is the rifling?

[FreedomAngel82]

131. Didn't they switch the bullet too?

[Justice Is Comin]

165. The showed that the bullet

was not absolutely pristine. There was a slight flattening of the front of the bullet when it's closely examined and a little leakage out the back.

Their bullet after penetrating the simulated exact replica of human bone material looked almost identical after their shot. Neither bullet looked like it was brand new out of the box. Just unusually undamaged but, even though a phenomenon, the extent of the minimal damage was duplicated.

[TX-RAT]

243. first understand the bullet

It was a full metal jacketed bullet, with no exposed lead. They were designed not to deform or expand. They can be fired into blocks of wood, and show little or no damage.

[Liberal OIF Vet]

247. So you are saying that a bullet......

..that caused 7 separate wounds, going through dense bone, skin and more importantly, A RIFLED BORE OF A GUN, would come to rest in perfect condition without even rifling marks? No way.

[TX-RAT]

252. Have you even seen the pics?

The bullet has rifling marks, it also has a slight bend, plus a small amount of lead extrusion out the back.

[Liberal OIF Vet]

254. I have seen them

The bullet was described to have been in pristine condition with hardly any weigh lost. Even a full-metal jaketed round is going to have some weight gone if shot through a human. Now imagine that same bullet going through the bodies of two men 7 times. You think that bullet would look like it did? I am hear to tell you that it would not. No way in hell. The bullet would look like it did if it were fired in cotton or a ballistic water tank. And I bet that is exactly where that bullet came from. That bullet no more went through JFK's body than it did mine.

[TX-RAT]

256. Then we will just disagree.

(Even a full-metal jacketed round is going to have some weight gone)
Yes it will, but not much. Might be why they said hardly any weight loss.

I've seen FMJ bullets fired full length through 300+lb hogs, side to side, front to rear, some showed no more damage than the rifling from the barrel. There have been Elephants, buffalo, rhino, and various other large animals shot with full metal rounds, one in particular was shot by Peter Capstick. It was a full on charge from a wounded Cape Buffalo. The round hit him 1 inch below the right eye, traveled through the skull, through the spine, traveling through the body cavity, exiting in the lower left abdomen. then striking the left hind leg, shattering the bone above the knee and coming to rest, just under the skin on the back side of the leg. Peters remarks after-wards were, had it not been for the damage done by the rifling, he felt it could have been reloaded in to another case and used again. He even showed a series of photos showing the damage, and the bullet.

[johnnie]

261. The other one fragmented

This is some good reading. It explains the FMJ and it concerning the Kennedy assasination. Basically it goes to say that the bullets were not FMJ.

"The Warren Commission claimed President Kennedy was struck in the head by a 6.5 mm full-metal-jacketed (FMJ) bullet fired from a low-to-medium-velocity Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, and that no other missile hit his skull. The Clark Panel and the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) claimed that a sizable fragment was sheared off from this alleged missile as it entered the president's skull, that the fragment imbedded itself on the outer table of the skull, and that the remainder of the bullet went on to leave dozens of tiny fragments inside the skull. There is evidence that these claims are incorrect, and that President Kennedy was struck in the head by high-velocity, frangible ammunition."


http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/forensic.htm

[BuyingThyme]

48. That show was the worst effort I ever saw.

The first thing they concluded was that the Governor's shattered rib and wrist bones were made of some kind of wax or gel. That's the only way they were able to explain the bullet.

Absolute morons.

[rinsd]

51. What?

They used balistic gel which reacts much like human flesh molded over a human bones.

I'm pretty sure you already knew that.

Again, all they proved was the magic bullet did not need magic.

They did not disprove a conspiracy to kill JFK.

[BuyingThyme]

60. Nonsense. The only time they were able to get a "pristine" bullet

was when it didn't hit any bone. They proved that the President and the Governor were made of gel. Morons.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

49. Sorry, I don't know a whole lot about guns

But from what I understand, someone would have to have been, not only an outstanding marksman, but cool as a cucumber to pull that one off. I find it implausable that you could take down the president of the United States, and be as cool as a cucumber. Think about it! Put yourself in that position! How cool would you be? Even if the target was the idiot we have in power currently, the consequenses are enormous. Five shots, from one gun, at extream distance, all hitting the target, while the target was moving? Come on! I've been to the range. Not a Fuckin chance! Most shooters can't hit the center of the target from 10 yards!, Much less a head shot from 100 yards. 5 head shts from 100 yards on a moving target? I think not.

[BuyingThyme]

55. And when they decided which gun they wanted to pin on Oswald,

they one they chose was impossible to aim.

[Zynx]

56. I've hit within an inch of where I've aimed from more than 150 yards.

First off, there were three shots. One missed altogether, one went through his neck(which was probably fatal by itself given time), and one through his head. The human head is a large target. Even an amateur could hit it at the given range.

[TomInTib]

69. In that time window?

I am the best shot I know.

I have won every running deer (moving target) contest I have ever participated in.

And I have never been close to getting three shots off in 1.3(?) seconds with a bolt action and neither has anyone else, ever. Much less come anywhere close to the target.

[Zynx]

73. It was about six seconds and three shots.

I don't know where you got the 1.3 seconds from.

[TomInTib]

151. Me either. It was 4.8. But still, no one has ever replicated that feat.

Take the person you know with the best hand-eye coordination.

Take even a small caliber (.223, maybe)with a light load. Pick a really smooth bolt action (Weatherby, Browning). Use a great scope. Rest should be at 46 degrees on a parallel plane to the stock o the rifle. 90 degress is cheating.

Place a 5 gallon pail 70 yards away.

3 shots- 4.8 seconds.

And that is shooting at a big stationary target.

Then try it with a 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano (circa 1940)piece of garbage.

I am from a very conservative environment. I am talking about people who scare me to this day.

Not one avid hunter or marksman I know believe Oswald did it alone. But they are glad as hell it happened.

Don't get me wrong. I am an older guy and the death of JFK was one of the lowest points of my life.
I just do not trust the Warren Commission findings.

[Justice Is Comin]

170. Hate to tell you,

but I saw all the shots duplicated on a JFK assassination special hosted by Peter Jennings of ABC. All three shots were fired within the shot time window with a duplicate rifle. Identical.

If you haven't seen these things, I know it's hard to believe.

[benEzra]

262. That gives you 2.4 seconds between shots...

plenty of time if the action is well-lubricated, considering that the target was at point-blank range and moving directly away.


Yes, 2.4 seconds. The clock starts counting the instant the first shot is fired.


BANG ... 2.4 seconds ... BANG ... 2.4 seconds ... BANG


That's not all that fast, at all.



Just out of curiosity, I decided to do a little experiment. Here's a rifle like Oswald used, a Mannlicher-Carcano M38:



I just went to the gun safe and got out a rather similar 1940's design military bolt-action rifle, a Mosin-Nagant M44 made in Poland. The Mosin-Nagant is notorious for being one of the klunkiest bolt-action rifles to operate, and is probably clunkier than the Carcano that Oswald used. Here's the Mosin:



Triple-checked to make sure it was empty, rested the rifle on a chair back as if shooting from a windowsill, used the fireplace as a safe backstop, and had my wife time me.


CLICK (cycle the bolt) (aim) CLICK (cycle the bolt) (aim) CLICK


4.58 seconds. Not hard at all, and I'm even a physics-geek-desk-jockey, not an ex-Marine sharpshooter like Oswald. Oswald would've had to deal with recoil, BUT he was also a lot more experienced shooting clunky 1940's bolt-actions than I am.


In my opinion, 3 shots in 4.8 seconds is entirely believable.

[Liberal OIF Vet]

263. Unfortunately...

LHO was not a sharpshooter in the least. He was a radar operator in the Marine Corps who was a very poor shot. Google the word "Maggie's Drawers". This is what a few of his Devil Dog pals described LHO shooting. And I am qualified to talk on this because I am an active duty Marine Who is a double expert with both a rifle and pistol (I have fired expert with the rifle 6 times and the pistol 4 times). I am a damn good shot and even I would have difficulty shooting someone in the head, moving with a piece of shit rifle.

[benEzra]

266. With a scope, slowly moving away from you, at 60-80 yd, from a rest?

LHO was not a sharpshooter in the least. He was a radar operator in the Marine Corps who was a very poor shot. Google the word "Maggie's Drawers". This is what a few of his Devil Dog pals described LHO shooting. And I am qualified to talk on this because I am an active duty Marine Who is a double expert with both a rifle and pistol (I have fired expert with the rifle 6 times and the pistol 4 times). I am a damn good shot and even I would have difficulty shooting someone in the head, moving with a piece of shit rifle.

A crossing shot from the grassy knoll--yes, that one would be tough. I don't see the TSBD shots as being all that difficult with a scope, though, at that angle. Shooting something slowly moving away from you isn't significantly harder than shooting something stationary.

My use of the term "sharpshooter" was unjustified, apparently--you have me there--but he *did* become a Marine, and a lousy shot by Marine standards might still be a decent shot. One could also note that Oswald hit only 1 or 2 of 3, at only 100 yards, with a scoped rifle, from a rest.

Carcanos aren't THAT inaccurate, and the action is reportedly very fast (like an Enfield); it's a derivative of the Mauser action, after all. If *I* can make the time with an even clunkier Mosin-Nagant, then even a so-so shooter could probably do it with a Carcano.

There was a thread on this over at the High Road a while back, on whether or not the Oswald-TSBD theory was feasible. Some of the comments were interesting:

The one real virtue of the M-91 is that it was a fast to operate. Perhaps this was partly because the action was not real tight, and partly due to the Mannlicher design. But for whatever reason, the bolt slid very easily and very fast in its recess. A buddy of mine owned an M-91 Carbine, and I remember it as being the fastest bolt action military rifle I ever cycled. Practically anyone, with a minimum of practice, could shoot a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle quickly.

Myself and five other rifle shooters from my gun club went to the Depository Building when we were in Dallas for the Shot Show one year. When we got upstairs we all agreed that it would be a very easy shot for any moderately talented rifle shooter shooting about any rifle.

Yes it has, and some have demonstrated that it is possible to make the shot. At least one of the persons who was able to make the shots, completely ignored the scope and used the iron sights. The scope mount design Oswald used allows that.

I agree with the folks who've been to Dealey. It's very small. Looking out the window next to the one Oswald used, my first thought was that it would be a surprisingly easy shot. Or, at least, MUCH easier than I had been led to believe by all the things I had read/heard about the shooting.

[Liberal OIF Vet]

267. The FBI investigators....

using the same rifle that LHO supposedly used had to actually fix/alter the bolt to test fire it. That is how crappy the action supposedly was. Also, the sites were horribly misaligned according to material I have researched. Also, there were tree branches obstructing the TSBD sixth floor window that the shots were fired from. These branches were supposed cut down under mysterious circumstances not long before the Warren Commission started investigating. There was other evidence that was tampered with also:

-The Limo's windshield was replaced and the vehicle was cleaned prior to it being investigated
-JFK's suit was supposedly cleaned
-JFK's brain is still missing

Like I said, the bullet alone is not what makes this thing stink to high heaven. Its everything else.

[FreedomAngel82]

133. Right

Even if you were an expert shot you just had to be really nervous because of getting caught and things like that. If you were nervous and flintched wouldn't you shoot in another direction from your target? This person had to be a professional.

[benEzra]

188. 100 yards is point-blank range for a scoped rifle...

a decent marksman could keep 100% of his shots on a playing card at that distance, and a skilled shooter with a very good rifle could hit a stationary quarter, every time.

The car was moving, but slowly, and directly away from Oswald. He had a scoped rifle, was a military-trained shooter, was shooting from a rest (the windowsill), at a target at point-blank range. I don't have any difficulty at all believing that Oswald could make that shot repeatedly and quickly.

The shot from the rear with a rifle would be considerably easier than a hypothetical shot from the grassy knoll, since a target moving directly away from the shooter is easier to track and lead than a target moving across the shooter's field of view.

[BuyingThyme]

190. It was literally impossible to shoot accurately with the rifle they

pinned on Oswald.

Just to do the tests on the rifle, they had to make drastic adjustments to the scope -- adjustments that were beyond the scope's actual range of adjustment.

[benEzra]

197. If that is indeed the case,

it would appear that the rifle was dropped at some point, bending either the scope itself or the mount. When a scope is mounted on a rifle, it will be boresighted to get the point of impact within the scope's adjustment range. Since even the most diehard grassy-knoll theorists do believe that SOME of the bullets came from the building Oswald was in, it is likely that Oswald's rifle was indeed properly sighted at that time. Maybe he dropped it after, or maybe it got tossed into the trunk of a police car (scopes can be delicate things).

Oswald was an idiot in many ways, but he wasn't an idiot as pertained to shooting; he was in the Marines, after all, and IIRC excelled at marksmanship while in the military. When he was kicked out of the Marines, it wasn't because he didn't know his way around a rifle, but because of his emotional problems, as I recall. I expect that a former Marine sharpshooter wouldn't be be caught dead with a rifle that hadn't been sighted in, unless you're saying that Oswald was completely innocent and had nothing to do with that rifle (but weren't his prints on it?)

FWIW, I think Oswald may or may not have been the only shooter, but I don't think he was the brains behind the plot. The fact that Oswald was almost immediately assassinated by someone (Jack Ruby) with ties to the mob suggests that there is more to the story than the "lone nut" hypothesis, IMHO.

[Peace Patriot]

52. Just too darn convenient for the war profiteers...

JFK: Refuses to invade Cuba; diffuses nuclear war with the Russians; issues executive orders withdrawing US "advisers' from Vietnam.

1963: Bang, bang, shoot shoot.

1963-1968: Half way through the slaughter of upwards of TWO MILLION PEOPLE in Vietnam and Southest Asia; boffo war profits.

MLK: Comes out in public against the Vietnam War, against all advice.

1968/March: Bang, bang, shoot, shoot.

RFK: Running a highly successful presidential campaign, anti-Vietnam War.

1968/June: Bang, bang, shoot, shoot.

Two much coincidence for me. Three great peace-minded leaders eliminated in the space of five years. And following this, the rest of the two million Southeast Asians were slaughtered, and the rest of the 55,000-plus US soldiers were killed, to the enormous additional profit of the warmongers.

My generation has never recovered from these assassinations and this war. And I will never believe that these assassinations were unrelated to it.

[Fox Mulder]

57. The assassination of JFK and the cover-up is one of the biggest...

conspiracies out there. I don't care what anyone says.

There's no way one bullet could've done what the Warren Commission said it did. Impossible. I will never believe it and I think it's appalling that someone is out to try to prove one bullet did it. They're part of the cover-up too, as far as I'm concerned. They aren't out for the truth.

[Zynx]

65. It's actually not that difficult once you realize the seat alignment is

not what has been presented by the conspiracy theorists. Mythbusters did a show on this where they show the seat positioning and then it actually isn't that difficult for a bullet to do what that particular round did.

[cureautismnow]

104. The Seat Alignment Changed...

...after Kennedy was hit first, slumped over, and openly exposed Connally to a different shot.

[FreedomAngel82]

136. And also

while Kennedy was being buried Johnson was shaking hands to stay in Vietnam. Was he even at the funeral?

[rinsd]

66. LOL

Trying to prove whether something is possible is covering up the truth?

It's always better to stick to our own beliefs, I suppose. Even in the face of contradictory evidence.

This was like a mythbusters show.

All they proved is that a bullet didn't need to be magic to do what happened.

[BuyingThyme]

62. On top of everything else, the morons proved that the bullet

(a single bullet) never could have made its way into the Governor's thigh.

[BlueIris]

68. YIKES. What year is it again? I thought it was 2006.

And I thought most people who post here had more than a tangential relationship with reality. Whoops. Silly Iris. Apparently, it's 1968 and some delusional folks would like the rest of us to share their fantasies.

Fellas? Even I think your boys are done. I'm sorry that this scares you so much, and that you don't know how to read, critically evaluate information, or resist propaganda. Go home, learn to do all that, and stop embarrassing yourselves. You'll feel much better in the long run, trust me.

[DrDebug]

79. The BFEE still doesn't want you to know the truth

Keep on repeating the same lies over and over again for 40 years. Nobody proved the single bullet theory. It's complete and total nonsense.

[BlueIris]

117. I know, but you'd think they'd get that a) that DU isn't the audience

for their insanity, and b) promoting the same propaganda over and over and over again actually makes them look MORE guilty. Yes, I've read Macbeth. It happens to be my favorite stage play. I just didn't expect to ever see its themes become part of my daily reality. IN THE 21ST CENTURY.

[DrDebug]

126. This isn't the audience, but they'll continue their propaganda

As far as JFK goes, there is no way that one bullet did all of that. There is clear evidence that shots have been fired from the front/side.

It makes Discovery Channel guilty of covering up the crime. Like posted below. Harrelson has admitted to being one of the gunmen, but he withdrew because he was going down for two life sentences anyhow. E. Howard Hunt was found guilty of the JFK assassination when he tried to stop a publication. And Tosh Plumlee has admitted that he was part of the abort team which means that he didn't shoot, but if it failed then he was supposed to give it another try with Sergio Arcacha Smith.

And if you don't believe it, you can ask Tosh Plumlee, because he is posting on the Spartacus messageboard under his own name ( http://educationforum.ipbhost.com )

[BlueIris]

143. Oh, I believe it. I'm on the youngish side, but I'm still conversant

with almost all of the relevant literature JFK researches use to explain the mechanisms through which the murder plan was hatched, carried out and covered up. It's great that you're posting links for the less informed, but I swear, I'm not one of the horde, even though I'm considered part of the political lost generation.

[FreedomAngel82]

83. I saw it and it's pretty good

Oh yes. One bullet went through his neck, hurt the driver and blew his brains out. Yeah, that's believable. :sarcasm:

[JuniperLea]

112. Don't forget how pristine it was

[cureautismnow]

86. Connally Did Not Believe He Was Shot With...

...the same bullet that hit Jack. Mrs. Connally thought it was a different bullet, too. How does Discovery explain away this and which of the "THREE" hit Tague?

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol4/page132.php

Mr. Specter: As the automobile turned left onto Elm from Houston, what did occur there, Governor?
Governor CONNALLY: We had--we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe 200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the freeway, the Stemmons Freeway, to go out to the hall where we were going to have lunch and, as I say, the crowds had begun to thin, and we could--I was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in approximately 5 minutes from the time we turned on Elm Street. We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt. So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back.

Later...

Mr. Specter: Governor, you have described hearing a first shot and a third shot. Did you hear a second shot?
Governor CONNALLY: No; I did not.

Later...

Mr. Specter: In your view, which bullet caused the injury to your chest, Governor Connally?
Governor CONNALLY: The second one.

Later again...

Mr. Specter: Do you have any idea as to why you did not hear the second shot?
Governor CONNALLY: Well, first, again I assume the bullet was traveling faster than the sound. I was hit by the bullet prior to the time the sound reached me, and I was in either a state of shock or the impact was such that the sound didn't even register on me, but I was never conscious of hearing the second shot at all. Obviously, at least the major wound that I took in the shoulder through the chest couldn't have been anything but the second shot. Obviously, it couldn't have been the third, because when the third shot was fired I was in a reclining position, and heard it, saw it and the effects of it, rather--I didn't see it, I saw the effects of it--so it obviously could not have been the third, and couldn't have been the first, in my judgment.

And Mrs. Connally AGREES:

Mr. Specter: That is the street on which you were proceeding through the town, yes.
Mrs. Connally: In fact the receptions had been. so good every place that I had showed much restraint by not mentioning something about it before. I could resist no longer. When we got past this area I did turn to the President and said, "Mr. President, you can't say Dallas doesn't love you." Then I don't know how soon, it seems to me it was very soon, that I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right. I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.
Mr. Specter: And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over gripping your own neck?
Mrs. Connally: Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down. Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." I never again----

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol4/page132.php

[T Town Jake]

88. I saw that documentary last night - it was excellent.

...pretty much laid the matter to rest in my mind.

Doubt it'll do much to quiet all the conspiracy hokum, though - facts rarely do.

[misternormal]

90. The Fact Still Remains that...

... Oswald was not a trained marksman. nor a trained assassin with the ice water in his veins necessary to pull off three shots of that magnitude.

The fact still remains that Oswald was a marginal rifleman. "Maggie's Drawers" for all of those out there old enough to know what that means.

I saw that documentary... The entire show was "re-creations"... The audio portion was a flippin' hoot.

He did not act alone... If He pulled the trigger at all.

I will die convinced that JFK was the victim of a far reaching conspiracy.

[dflprincess]

92. Did it explain how one bullet remained in near perfect condition

after passing through two bodies and breaking bones? And, did they address that the wounds described by the doctors at the Dallas hospital were not the same wounds described in the autopsy?

[BuyingThyme]

121. No, they proved the bullet would have been damaged; then they

lied about it when it came time for their "findings."

As for the wounds, they just went with the ones which were most convenient for them.

[FreedomAngel82]

140. They switched the bullets

[SPKrazy]

Wasn't Woody Harrelson's Dad Involved? (From a book)

I think I heard that or read that.

One of the 3 well dressed "hobos" that were detained by the police on site and transported to the station but never booked and no record of them. Except photographic evidence showing them being marched single file with police officers. One of them allegedly looks like Woody Harrelson's Dad, who was said by the same person who wrote the book (almost certain it was a book) to be a Mob assassin.

Anyone else read this book or heard this information.

[DrDebug]

105. Yep. He even admitted it

But he later withdrew his confession.

Jack Anderson, is one of those reporters who believe Harrelson was involved in the assassination of John F. Kennedy. In their book The Man on the Grassy Knoll, John R. Craig and Philip A. Rogers claimed that Harrelson and Charles Rogers were the two gunman behind the picket fence on the Grassy Knoll. It was also claimed that Harrelson, Rogers and Chauncey Holt were the three tramps arrested in Dealey Plaza on 22nd November, 1963. It was not until 1992 that the Dallas Police Department revealed that the three tramps were Gus Abrams, John F. Gedney and Harold Doyle. (I presume this to be disinformation from the Dallas Police)

(...)

It is believed that in 1979 Harrelson was paid $250,000 by drug dealers to assassinate the John H. Wood. On 29th May, 1979, Wood was shot dead left his Alamo Heights townhouse. Wood, known as "Maximum John" for his tough sentences of drug traffickers, was the first federal judge to be murdered in the 20th century.

When he was arrested he confessed to being one of the gunman who killed President John F. Kennedy. He later withdrew this confession but he was eventually convicted of the murder of Wood and sentenced to two life sentences.

(...)

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKharrelson.htm

[H2O Man]

134. I do not know anyone

who has used a rifle to shoot a large mammal that believes the baloney about the "magic bullet," much less the final shot. But, because not everyone is experienced in this area, and people with a certain agenda will pretend these things can be attributed to Oswald, I think it is worth noting one simple thing that exposes the nature of the lie.

In his book "Man of the House," Tip O'Neill says he believed the Warren Comission until one day in 1968 -- and I think that 1968 is a subtle clue from Tip -- when he was discussing Dallas with Kenny O'Donnell and Dave Powers. They were there, and they knew some shots came from the Grassy Knoll. When they told the FBI this, they were told to lie to the Warren Commission.

This changed Tip's mind.(page 211) If the Warren Commission were correct, would it have needed two of JFK's closest friends to lie?

[DrDebug]

142. The Grassy Knoll was one of the places

It could well be possible that shots were fired from the Texas School Depository, but E. Howard Hunt, Charles Harrelson and Tosh Plumlee and a couple others were at the Grassy Knoll and those three names have either admitted it at one time or - in case of Hunt - was guilty of it. And all of those three people were at the Grassy Knoll and a couple of others as well and it's the same team of Operation 40 ( Cuban Task Force of the CIA ) - and later the Plumbers of Nixon - with a couple of additional mafia guys like Harrelson. That makes it a conspiracy period

[H2O Man]

146. Yep.

I think it is also important for people to remember that the Warren Commission had decided on a different sequence of shots-injuries before they were forced to deal with a shot they had to admit missed. This is documented in Jim Marrs' "Crossfire" section on James Thomas Tague (pages 60-64). I am confident that you are familiar with this.

[H2O Man]

99. Ha!!!! n/t

[leftofthedial]

115. extraordinary propaganda piece

[i miss america]

120. ITA. Everything that airs on the Discovery Channel regarding JFK

is total BS and part of a disinformation campaign that is still in full swing.

Believe what you want, but if you are interested in the truth, the Discovery Channel is not the place to find it.

[Imagevision]

118. JFK brought to you by the same people who gave you RFK - MLK - Iraq war

[FreedomAngel82]

141. We have a winner

[warrior1]

124. Yes

[KakistocracyHater]

128. don't forget these people create their own realities

then while we all argue over what they've created, they move on & make something else up-remember?

[doublethink]

135. I saw the program up until the part where as you stated ....

"They also documented that any other shooter that would have been on the grassy knoll would have had to be 2.8 feet tall or 40 feet behind the retaining wall and standing on a 16 foot ladder." I had to laugh at that conclusion. It was really pulled out of left field. :rofl: Maybe you 'got it' but it seems to me the Discovery channel has really gone downhill in it's investigative credibility after this one.

That in itself made no sense whatsoever as the retaining wall is 5ft tall and any possible shooter behind it had a perfect shot at the Presidents head. :wtf: this Discovery program was getting at I had no idea? Their 'explanation' would be harder to prove in a court of law than any of the evidence of either 'Badge Man' or the other guy 'Black Dog Man' possibly being behind the wall? Who knows?



Lastly, earlier in the program the two 'photographers' they were using in this program for their recreated photographic evidence ..... well yea real professional analysis there is all I gotta say. :rofl: And did the program cover the street drainage perch at street level a possible shooter could have used? Not that I saw. This program didn't solve anything. But was worth the 45 minutes or so for the laughs. Look I draw no conclusion what took place on the day Kennedy was assassinated, and I still don't. All the best, Peace. :)

[bpilgrim]

139. lol - i discovered it on the teeVee, bwahahahaha!

though i can't remember even one single point to back up THEIR argument, yet, i'm convinced.

so, there are 0 conspiracies... it's all in our heads, eh?

yeah, whatever

peace

[Octafish]

168. 'If it's not on the TV, it can't be real.'

LMFAO.

A description attributed to Bush himself in 1989 seems apt. The Houston Chronicle reported Bush telling a friend: "You know, I could run for governor, but I'm basically a media creation. I've never done anything. I've worked for my dad. I worked in the oil business ..."

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-02.htm

[cureautismnow]

144. Views from the Picket Fence

There are some interesting views of a "possible shot" from the picket fence here:

http://www.visi.com/~tomcat/travelogue/sadpoc/sadpoc0004.shtml

I have personally observed the infamous "X" on Elm from the picket fence on three occasions. IMHO, it seems a hell of a lot easier to strike the X (with a frangible bullet) from there than from the "Snipers Nest."

[Warren DeMontague]

145. Oh, okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

Not.

[BlueIris]

154. Here's your winner.

Nice icon, by the by.

[Cetacea]

159. hehe..Kool Aid TV

I didn't see the show but it seems like they ignored a lot of other assasination related facts while putting forth their BS theory.

[Balbus]

160. It was a very interesting show,

but I never believed the whole JFK conspiracy bullshit anyway. Made Ollie Stone some money, though.

[Octafish]

164. Ask George Herbert Walker Bush. FBI knows.

Poppy wanted to give J Edgar his whereabouts about an hour after JFK was dead.

Oh yeah. Bush also warned the FBI about a possible threat to the president he heard a while back.




Too bad he didn't step forward sooner.

Live and learn.

http://www.internetpirate.com/bush.htm

[Individualist]

167. If you see it on the teevee,

you know it must be true. :eyes:

[rman]

169. Conspiracy? No. The "magic bullet theory" is a cover up.

One bullet? Doing loops and pausing in mid air. Causing 7 wounds, a hole in the windscreen, a hole in the tarmac, in the grass - and ending up in pristine condition on a stretcher next to the one JFK was on.

Security personnel ordered to stand down, the public removed from the area before hand. I could go on and end up having written a book about it.

Better see the video for yourself:

JFK II: The Bush Connection
http://madcowpolitics.com/jfk2bb.wmv

[Blue_Tires]

174. if Oswald was the only shooter (which i can believe)

then we have been seriously lied to about WHO he truly was, along with his background

[Justice Is Comin]

175. Uhmm

If they can make the bullet do what the bullet did, then you can't continue to claim the bullet didn't do what the bullet did.

I hope that's clear. :rofl:


Vincent Bugliosi is apparently coming out with a several year research of the event for a new book. And whatever he tells me, I'm going to believe.

I think he's a lawyer of repute beyond description. I wish to hell he would have been the one prosecuting Simpson.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

176. "And whatever he tells me, I'm going to believe."

What an independent thinker, going to believe
whatever is in a book before you've read it--before it's
even published.

[Justice Is Comin]

177. Yup when I can't believe him,

I'll have to turn republican. I don't think he's ever lost a case, and he isn't quick to be quiet about stuff. So, what he says will be good enough for me.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

178. "...I'll have to turn republican."

Odd thing to say.

[Justice Is Comin]

179. That's why I said it.

The chances of that are as good as restaurants on Pluto. So, I'm equally as confident Bugliosi's book is going to tell it like it is.

[Spider Jerusalem]

185. No, I don't...

and haven't since I took the time to carefully examine the available evidence, which indicates that: a shot from behind killed Kennedy; that the most likely trajectory for that shot came from Oswald's supposed position; that the bullets that killed Kennedy, and wounded Connally, were fired by Oswald's rifle (based on neutron activation analysis of recovered fragments from both Kennedy's head wound and Connally's wrist wound); and that the trajectory of the so-called "magic" bullet, far from being "impossible", is, based on timing of the hits (as seen from film evidence), Kennedy and Connally's relative positions (Connally WASN'T seated directly in front of JFK, but below and slightly to the left), the known behaviour of metal-jacketed military rifle rounds, and the aforementioned neutron-activation analysis, is as certain as anything CAN be.

And the idea of conspiracy isn't supported by the train of coincidence, either: Oswald got his job at the book depository before Kennedy's trip to Dallas was planned; the decision to have a motorcade through Dallas was Kennedy's (he HAD been supposed to be awarded an honorary degree by Texas Christian University in Fort Worth, but the event was cancelled and created a hole in his schedule); the reason the motorcade took the route it did through Dealey Plaza was Connally's insistence that he and Kennedy have a luncheon event at the Dallas Trade Mart rather than Kennedy's preferred location; and the final route of the motorcade was only decided upon mere days before the assassination. There's no room in any of this chain of coincidence for careful planning, or for the sort of elaborate setup of Oswald that conspiracists posit; it just doesn't hold up.

In the face of the above evidence, continued belief in conspiracy is a triumph of unreason over logic.

[Justice Is Comin]

187. It's like everything else.

Some will never believe even in the face of explained phenomena. There are so many rumors flying around, they get a life of their own and then they start being repeated. Like crop circles.

However even in light of all I've seen and what you adeptly explained, shenanigans could have been at work that make the assassination a little more complex, failed planning or otherwise. Bugliosi's book I believe is going to be an eye opener.

[ProfessorGAC]

186. Gerald Posner Was In That Documentary. CASE CLOSED!

That guy has the reasoning powers of asparagus. So, if he is absolutely certain that Oswald was the lone shooter, i'm absolutely certain there had to be at least one more.

It's very simple: If Posner says it, i'm sure it's wrong.
The Professor

[Justice Is Comin]

192. Opinions are like clouds.

Some days you don't have many, some days you have a sky full.

But I think a jury of twelve reasonable minds presented with this evidence would find the magic bullet guilty. Beyond that I sayeth not and note the absence of a quorum.

[ProfessorGAC]

193. I Watched The Special

I saw a great deal of jumping through hoops and huge leaps in logic to cover their initial premise. This "investigation" would not have passed a peer review no matter the topic.
The Professor

[Junkdrawer]

191. Wonder why the big $$$ to "debunk" questions about JFK's murder...

NOW, 40+ years later? :shrug:

[CottonBear]

226. Because Gerald Ford is really old and could die soon. n/t

[ComerPerro]

196. One thing about that special that made me skeptical

was that the guy who was doing the computer rendering who recreated the shot seemed to be moving the positions of each person into place so that they would fit the required trajectory.

Who knows if his data is accurate. It could be, I don't really know the facts of the case (nor do I really care).

I just know that, using computer rendering, I could draw the trajectory first and then the positioning of the two men will just fall into place as needed.

[deutsey]

198. Testimony of people who were actually there convinced me to doubt

the official version.

[Liberal OIF Vet]

200. Point blank.....

You don't get shot in the back of the head and have the head travel in the direction the shot came from. Not possible. You don't have a bullet go through 2 bodies and come out in near pristine condition. Not possible. I am in the military and have dealt with and seen the affects of humans shot by rifles. Have you ever seen the Badge Man photos? How about Umbrella Man? How about the pic of the guy talking on a walkie-Talkie that was NOT a Secret Service agent? How about the brains on the BACK of the trunk? How about the blood-soaked cop riding a motorcycle to the back left of JFK? How about ER doctors with vast experience in dealing with gunshot trauma swearing about the entrance wound to the throat and a huge exit wound to the BCK of JFK's head? Need I go further?

There are too many unexplained things with this crime for anyone to sanely believe all of the Warren Commissions conclusions. Was LHO involved? Possibly. Was he the only shooter? Hell no.

[reprehensor]

202. I don't buy it.

THE "LONE-NUTTER" REFUTATION

[Tripmann]

203. Anybody else see JFK - image of an assasination

where they take the zarpuro (spelling?) tape and digitally enhance it frame-by-frame. Anybody convinced of the single bullet theory should watch it and have a rethink.

[wixomblues]

206. I like the Castro theory.

Regardless of who pulled the trigger, I think the fact that castro was behind it would explain a lot of our odd but consistent foreign policy with that little island.

[ProfessorGAC]

212. I"m On Board With That

It doesn't make sense that presidents who were NOT strident anti-communists (Ford, Carter, 41, Clinton, and even 43 since communism isn't a threat anymore), have never normalized with a country only 90 miles away.

That's seems like a logical course to pursue.
The Professor

[RandomKoolzip]

207. SO what about the fake "Oswald" showing up to the embassy

in MExico City?

WHat about the findings of the Church Committe?

What about Antonio Vecianas?

Sorry, still too much weirdness and too many anomalies for me to ever settle on the "official" version. The entire incident can't be solved by just wishfully reducing the amount of shots fired at Kennedy to one.

[TheWatcher]

209. The only thing more amusing than that particular show is

Your absolute desperation to believe it, and your pathetic arrogant condescending attitude towards those who don't swallow it as easily as you did.

How dare you come here and make a statement like that, that if we don't believe the show we have "no desire for the truth."

I'm tired of people like you telling me what I have to believe, and telling me that if I don't, I have no desire for the truth. That's a crock of Bullshit.

Believe what you want. I have no problem with that. Considering the fact it is doubtful we will ever get to the real truth of what happened that day, I could care less what your smug thoughts are, because they don't get us any closer to it.

But don't get in our faces and tell us we have no desire for the truth because we don't buy what you buy.

It's not your opinions I have a problem with, it's your approach

Maybe you SHOULD turn Republican. You do a pretty good job of reasoning like one, and debating like one.

[gilpo]

211. Discovery Leans Right Anyway

Remember Ann Coulter, Greatest President Ever, Ronald Reagan? Any network that puts her on to announce that Ronald Reagan beats out Abraham Lincoln as the greatest president HAS to be RW.

[DiverDave]

214. Geez, this AGAIN?

If you believe that Oswald was alone, that 1 bullet STOPPED in midair, then went off on another trajectory, with NO diminishing of its force.
Then I've got a bridge I want to sell ya.
I think that Garrison was on the right track.
THEY killed him, and set Oswald up.

[Odin2005]

218. Not this bullshit again.

People seem to have a need to beleive that JFK was killed for some higher reason than being in the line of fire by a crazy nuthead simply because he was such an important person "there MUST be something behind it"! No. Beleiveing this JFK conspiracy crap is psycology, nothing more; people wanting to see patterns where there is none. The people trying to link the assasinations of JFK, RFK, and MLK are even more nuts.

[RobertSeattle]

227. Too bad one of those psychics that talk to the dead couldn't clear it up

:evilgrin:

[DemonFighterLives]

268. Just keep reading

You may change your mind someday!
:patriot:

[Wise Doubter]

219. If a "short guy" were to kneel down wouldn`t he be able to get to

2 feet 8". I`m sure one of our military sharpshooters could pull it off.


Point being - we will never know the WHOLE TRUTH, just like so many things in our country`s history.

[SittingBull]

228. Bwahaahaa

And even in 2050, after all Kennedy files open, on your way to psychatry,
you will scream: The magic bullet was a tin foil head conspiray theory.

[kmla]

235. It may explain that one bullet may have cause 7 injuries....

... but simple physics doesn't jibe with the rear entry fatal shot. It just doesn't.

To say nothing about all of the other crap that went on about "this conspiracy that really wasn't".

Like:

-The disappearance of the brain shortly after being entered into the National Archives. Modern day forensics would go alot further than that of 1963 in determining bullet trajectories. But, alas, the evidence has conveniently disappeared.

-The phantom Secret Service agents along the grassy knoll.

-The last minute change of the parade route.

-The absence of prints on the Manlicher-Carcano that was supposedly used. That is, until the agents made a visit to the morgue at a later time.

-The convenient picture of Oswald, holding all of "that commie propaganda." That photo has too many problems to be real, IMHO.

-The convenient and easy re-entry of Oswald back into America with his Russian bride, even after he had earlier renounced America and all that it stood for (allegedly). Even though we were still very much in the middle of The Red Scare, where "the only good commie is a dead commie."

-The fake Oswald at the foreign embassy in Mexico City.

Too much ancillary crap like this exists...

If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and farts like a duck - it's a duck.

What we have here is a conspiracy.

[Liberal OIF Vet]

238. Nice.....

Very good analysis. Without all of this other garbage, maybe the whole single bullet thing would be plausible. But with all of the peripheral stuff, the coverup and my lying eyes, I just will not take what the gov't has said about this at face value. When I first saw the Zapruder film my lying eyes told me even then that the official account was bullshit. All my subsequent research has done nothing the quell the bullshit smell in regards to the official account.

[kmla]

246. Thanks, dude.

And welcome to DU!

:hi:

[smartvoter]

248. I thought about posting something similar. You are right, it is not

just about one part. It's the whole, and it overwhelmingly points to conspiracy.

[Jara sang]

249. First of all, "the magic bullet" is an anti-conspiracy theory.

Second, Specter is a whore. Back then he was trying to ride JFK's corpse into infamy. As it stands he merely an asterisk.

[RBHam]

265. You go right ahead and believe disinformation...

If it helps you sleep at night...

[mikelewis]

270. The NIST has a completely logical though astronomically implausible...

explaination for the collapse of World Trade Center 7. You should read that report. If you like fiction, you might actually this one too.

[dailykoff]

272. Specter has packed two nut jobs onto the Supreme Court,

Thomas and Alito, assuming Alito gets confirmed. No, I don't believe a word he's ever said or written.