The torture issue is "The Chance of a Lifetime" for Dems.

[scarletwoman]

I got this from Digby's blog, in the comments to this post, it's absolutely AWESOME! It's long, but please do read it through:

The Daily Brew
September 25, 2006
Chance of a Lifetime

I realize that the entire leftwing blogosphere is apoplectic because Democrats failed to even participate in the deal cut last Thursday allowing Bush to torture people. I don’t see why. I am probably too optimistic, but I think Rove has finally outsmarted himself.

For years Democrats (including myself) have bitched and moaned that GOP talking points fit neatly onto bumper stickers, while it takes a thirty page white paper with 200 footnotes to explain the Democratic alternative. For once, the shoe is on the other foot. The GOP has given us the opportunity to make the Republicans the Torture Party. We ought to run with it.

Every time Bush has squarely addressed the issue, he has denied that “we” torture people. That tells me two things. First, it tells me that Bush is lying. I saw the pictures from Abu Gharib. Bush is definitely in the torture business. Second, and almost as important, it tells me that the word “torture” doesn’t poll well for Rove. So if you keep calling Bush a torturer, he will have to keep denying it. So lets do it.

For Anne Coulter and Michelle Malkin, the fact that Bush is morphing into Josef Mengele is a plus, but we are not getting the pro-torture votes anyway. For all the normal folks whose sense of morality forces Bush to deny he tortures people, this debate is a gift from God.

Is there a better sound bite than “I oppose torture”? Is there an easier thing to say than “I am not going to vote for this bill. Torture is immoral. Torturing people who haven’t even been charged with a crime endangers both our troops and the American public. If we make it US policy to torture people who have done nothing wrong, based on the mere suspicion that they might know something useful, is there any doubt that foreign governments will likewise subject our troops and US citizens traveling abroad to the same treatment”?

Sure, we all know that once we start, the right wing noise machine will spring into action. But for once, we’ve got them where we want them. Out talking points are simple. Theirs are not. Just by having the debate, we win it.

The actual bill is a complicated mess. Unless you are an endowed chair at the Yale law school, good luck figuring out what it means. So when we say “Torture is wrong,” they have to say “The bill does not authorize torture. Under paragraph 3(g)(4) subsection iii, the proposed legislation clearly provides that….” Yada, yada, yada. Get the idea?

Little Suzy Swingvoter and her husband Joe the Undecided Working Guy aren’t going to listen to the whole debate, and they damn sure aren’t going to read the bill. Their impressions are going to be formed on the basis of sound bites, and in this debate, we have the better sound bites. We can make the GOP the Torture Party. All we have to do is make sure we don’t give them any bi-partisan cover, and repeatedly force them to deny that they are torturing people. We will come out miles ahead.

If the Rove tries to debate this bill by saying that Democrats are soft on terrorism, then the GOP implicitly concedes that the bill authorizes torture, and we win; the GOP is the Torture Party. The tougher they act, the more they cement the idea that they are torturing people. On the other hand, if they try to make convoluted arguments about how much you have to harm people before it is actually considered torture, then they are dancing on the head of a pin with the devil, and the GOP is the Party of Torture with Law Degrees. The more they deny the bill authorizes torture, the more they undercut their own message that Democrats are soft on terrorism. We win both ways.

All Democrats have to do is keep making simple statements over and over. “Torture is wrong.” “Torture is Un-American.” What is the GOP going to do? Say torture is a family value? All Democrats need to do is trust that the American people will reject torture.

Maybe Digby is right. Maybe the Democrats have been “punked.” Maybe a mere six weeks from the fall election, Democrats will again take the seemingly safe route, meekly sit back, say nothing, and allow the compromise to become law. McCain will get to play the Republican rebel maverick, who did the moral thing and looked out for the troops. Bush will get to play the Republican statesman and leader, who showed that he is committed to protecting Americans but that he is willing to listen and compromise, and Democrats will look like ciphers who don’t have the stones to even say a word when the most important moral issue confronting the government is being debated.

On the other hand, maybe pigs will fly, and the Democrats will finally get smart. Maybe Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi will realize that when it comes to torture, good policy, good morals, and good politics all converge. Maybe Democrats will stand up for the idea that torture is wrong, and hang this atrocity around the necks of the entire Republican party like a burning tire.

Of course, if they don’t, then I don’t really care what happens. For me, we reach the Rubicon this week. Any political party that won’t stand up and be counted against torture is not a party that I want to be associated with, regardless of how evil the alternative. I think opposing torture is a political winner. But even if I am wrong, and standing up against torture will cost the Democrats the majority, then SO BE IT, they should do it anyway.

Anyone in Congress who isn’t willing to risk their seat to oppose torture I don’t want in power regardless of what party they are in. If a Democrat doesn’t have the courage to do the right thing on an issue this basic and fundamental, then they are a coward who is unworthy of their seat. We should make any Democrat who gives the GOP bipartisan cover for this abomination the “Joe Lieberman” of every future election they enter. If they aren’t smart enough to see that doing the right thing here is a long term political winner for the party, even if they are worried it might cost them their job in the short run, then they are more committed to their own power than our principles, and to hell with them.
__________________________________________________ ____________
The Daily Brew is an editorial/opinion column delivered exclusively via email.

Please forward it to your friends, relatives, congressional representatives, favorite bloggers, and other media outlets.

Anyone who wants to be added to this list can sign up here:
http://brew.notifylist.com/thedailybrew.html
anon | 09.23.06 - 10:23 pm |

And by the way, go read some of the other posts over there by digby & tristero, they've been writing some truly insightful pieces all week about the torture issue.

sw

[Solly Mack]

1. Recommended

[scarletwoman]

2. Thanks! Appreciate it!

I've got to sign off for the night now, and I'm really hoping this doesn't sink too quickly.

sw

[Solly Mack]

4. I'll help keep it kicked until I have to go

Good night!!

[Jackpine Radical]

5. Ditto on the recommend.

Wow, that piece set off a lot of cascading thoughts, largely revolving around this idea:

"Any political party that won’t stand up and be counted against torture is not a party that I want to be associated with, regardless of how evil the alternative."

--Yes! Right on!!

--No, wait, the Dems are the only opposition in town. Do we dare to Naderize them?...

--What if SOME Dems take the high road but some don't?

--You just know they won't do anything. What do we do with this cowardly leadership?

Etc.

[Solly Mack]

7. The whole issue really does get the mind to working in overdrive

I am who I am because of what I believe and I believe torture is wrong...regardless of the excuses given. It's a simple issue for me. There is no "compromise" - there can be no "compromise"

There's no going back from legislating torture. Even if later repealed - it was still on the books. America still voted to torture.

My biggest fear? My most certain fear? One and the same.

That this bill will pass

I can't rationalize a vote for torture away. I'm not built that way.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

8. If the Democratic Party doesn't make a strong, unified statement on this,

including the leadership, I'm through. Through with this board, the party, American politics. Because the country will be dead.

There is no political calculation that can possibly justify such cowardice in my mind. Nope.

[Solly Mack]

10. I keep asking

How can a Congress that votes to allow torture ever hold Bush accountable for his crimes?

They can't

Once you vote to allow torture you are complicit to Bush's war crimes. Will your accomplices incriminate themselves to get you - at that level of government? I think not.

I'm disgusted.Beyond disgusted.

Smoke and mirrors and whitewash.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

3. Why do we have to wait, for prominent Dems to speak up about this?

I agree completely with the sentiments in the blog post. But where is the evidence that the party will take advantage of the "opportunity of a lifetime"?

On the other hand, maybe pigs will fly, and the Democrats will finally get smart. Maybe Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi will realize that when it comes to torture, good policy, good morals, and good politics all converge. Maybe Democrats will stand up for the idea that torture is wrong, and hang this atrocity around the necks of the entire Republican party like a burning tire.

Of course, if they don’t, then I don’t really care what happens. For me, we reach the Rubicon this week. Any political party that won’t stand up and be counted against torture is not a party that I want to be associated with, regardless of how evil the alternative. I think opposing torture is a political winner. But even if I am wrong, and standing up against torture will cost the Democrats the majority, then SO BE IT, they should do it anyway.

Anyone in Congress who isn’t willing to risk their seat to oppose torture I don’t want in power regardless of what party they are in. If a Democrat doesn’t have the courage to do the right thing on an issue this basic and fundamental, then they are a coward who is unworthy of their seat. We should make any Democrat who gives the GOP bipartisan cover for this abomination the “Joe Lieberman” of every future election they enter. If they aren’t smart enough to see that doing the right thing here is a long term political winner for the party, even if they are worried it might cost them their job in the short run, then they are more committed to their own power than our principles, and to hell with them.

I agree with every word of the above excerpt.

[life_long_dem]

6. K&R

[upi402]

9. "I don’t want in power regardless of what party they are in"

"Anyone in Congress who isn’t willing to risk their seat to oppose torture I don’t want in power regardless of what party they are in"

My personal favorite sentence from the Daily Brew.

[BurtWorm]

11. Bumper Stickers for the Campaign: Torture Endangers American Troops

Don't Make Our Troops Torturers

Another Democrat Against Torture

Terrorists Win When We Torture

and so on and so forth...

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

12. What good does it do for "rank and file" to make these signs if the people

they are supposed to help elect don't endorse the sentiments?

[BurtWorm]

14. I hear you.

:evilfrown:

[magellan]

13. Absolutely spot on

And yet some would admonish us for expecting more than nothing from the Dem leadership on this. The Dems could easily rally the American public if they would only stand together and speak out. It doesn't matter that they don't have the power to change this legislation. They do have the power to start a tsunami of public backlash that would throw these Repug villains out in November, and thus save this country's soul, if only they would finally provide the leadership.

Silence in the face of tyranny makes one an accomplice to tyranny.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

16. Up until this moment, the torture legislation, I had some hope. Hope for

the Democratic Party, hope for this election, hope for the nation.

Now I am without hope. It is really a dark time for me. I don't really know what to think or where to turn.

I suppose it is still possible that there will be some kind of decent response to this, but the signs are not promising, and, honestly, I don't expect it now. It will still be welcome if it comes.

But as it has not come already, I'm not expecting it.

[magellan]

18. Mayberry, I'm with you

I actually got to that dark place following Katrina, when no one was yelling except a couple of corporate media heads. That was such a bad time I quit coming here and would not watch the news, any of it, for six months. It seemed meaningless to feel anything because it only caused more pain.

Well, I've reconciled that within myself now. We are meaningless in the great scheme of things. But what we do and how we live our lives is not.

The Dems have proved that. If they were suddenly to come out with a strong statement against torture and appear on every channel with it tomorrow, I'd see it as nothing more than cynical political maneuvering; too little too late. The time for a response was before they interrupted their busy schedules to cast petty aspersions on Chavez.

I think eventually we are going to be the change we seek.

I know where you are. Ride it out. Stay strong.

[Singular73]

15. Been telling my wife this...

Since when does it become a political liability to denounce torture?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

17. It's NOT. So it's not only moral cowardice, but political STUPIDITY.

[scarletwoman]

19. Morning kick... (nt)

[deacon]

20. k + r

[Vinca]

21. I'm hoping we've heard little from the Democrats because

they've got a surprise revolt planned during the debate over the legislation. Sadly, this shouldn't be an "us" or "them" debate. It should be about what's "right" and what's "wrong." If our country morphs into something Idi Amin would be proud to lead, all is lost.

[Solly Mack]

22. Oh wow. I said the same thing about Amin to my husband

the other day

Idi Amin "Dada" gave me nightmares

[mmonk]

23. Fact is, we don't need to read stuff like this.

Members of Congress do. Hopefully, some of them have a conscience they have thus far been unable to show.

[specimenfred1984]

24. I love this quote in the article: "Little Suzy Swingvoter and her husband

"Little Suzy Swingvoter and her husband Joe the Undecided Working Guy aren’t going to listen to the whole debate, and they damn sure aren’t going to read the bill. Their impressions are going to be formed on the basis of sound bites..."


That encapsulates 100 years worth of propaganda in the U.S.. We've bred brainwashed consumer zombies who will torture people rather than have to think.

[Solly Mack]

90. That's it in a nutshell

indoctrinated to believe whatever the government says because they are indoctrinated to believe America is the good guy, would never do anything bad, America is moral, better, stronger, greater...

so when someone in the government says..."we don't torture"

that's all they hear...and they believe

[leftchick]

25. this is excellent but

sadly It ain't going to happen. Levin and Reid have already praised the "brave, courageous" revolting repukes. I am so done with our so called leadership. :puke:

[spanone]

26. I agree with you LC

They will now vote for the TORTURE compromise and when the dems vote against it they will paint them as not giving the White House the tools to protect the American people and the dems will stammer and cough and be caught with their heads up their asses again. I hate to type this, but I fear it may be the truth.

[scarletwoman]

42. I am in despair, too. But I'll still make one more effort to push them

into taking the moral stand. I'll call and write my senators and congressperson, and BEG them not to support this travesty.

If nothing comes of it, I'm done. I'll have nothing to do with enabling the sham of such a corrupt political system to continue. Let the Repugs totally run this country into the ground. I'll tend to my garden, make sure my kids have up-to-date passports, and quietly live out what years remain to me under the radar (hopefully) of the Fourth Reich -- much like the ordinary people under totalitarian governments throughout history have done.

I'm too old and too tired to foment for revolution. I have my hard-won survival skills and my 10 acres out in the country to get by on. And if any urban refugees need someplace to escape to, I will happily offer them sanctuary. But I'll never vote again -- it's a rigged game, a kubuki theater for the gullible.

sw

[buddhamama]

27. i agree

it is a 'winning' issue but only so far as they Democratic Party is Willing to put their Political ambitions aside and stand up for what is Right. I stated yesterday in a thread that I would vote Democratic this election, regardless. I recant my statement and the promise. I cannot in good conscience vote for someone who would support torture.

thanks for posting this, scarletwoman. K&R.

[elehhhhna]

28. They all practice Politics at the expense of Governance.

Torture SHOULD NEVER have become a 'political football', however, the bright line has been drawn--You are either FOR torture or against it.

Reeps were FOR torture before they were against it.

They now want to codify and excuse it, while continuing to practice it, and this is proven by the text of the bill--which contains a clear admission that it has been in practice for at least 5 years.

If Dems don't shut the Government DOWN over this, we must form a 3rd party, who's platform is The US Constitution.

[Tin Man]

29. K&R 4 wedge issue: Do Mr&Mrs BibleBelt think Jesus would condone torture?

Seriously, I think the DailyBrew is onto something here... if simply for the fact that most people have an inherent understanding that torture is morally wrong.

But furthermore, I see the 'torture question' as a potential 'wedge issue' to target RedState BibleThumpers... might make them second-guess their unquestioning belief that GWB and the Republicans are 'endorsed by God'... i.e. Would Jesus condone torture???

[scarletwoman]

37. That's excellent! "Who would JESUS Torture?"

I just can't believe that the country I thought I grew up in, the Shining Beacon of Freedom, Home of the Brave, Land of the Free; has come to such a sorry state.

I was born in 1949, and the Cold War formed the backdrop of my entire childhood and youth. What I remember most vividly was how the sense of our moral superiority -- compared to Soviet Russia -- was constantly drummed into our heads. I so pitied the citizens of the USSR, forced to live in fear in a totalitarian state, subjected to the evil whims of the KGB, never knowing the kind of freedom that we noble Americans took as our birthright.

Embedded in the zeigeist of the times I grew up in was always the profound and absolute sense that the U.S. represented the very epitome of the highest ideals of humanity. We were so much BETTER than the Nazis (my father was a WWII veteran), and we were so much BETTER than the USSR.

(I must note, that having since grown up and studied our TRUE history, I am now painfully aware of all the horrific acts that our government committed around the world throughout that time -- but back then, I fully believed. As did most ordinary Americans.)

I simply can't imagine that back in the days of my childhood, that even the slightest hint of our government condoning torture and secret prisons and such would have been met with ANYTHING but the most overwhelming revulsion and disgust on the part of the common citizens.

My poor parents -- both now in their 80s, children of the Great Depression, WWII and the New Deal -- are absolutely heartbroken that this country has become so degraded and depraved that torture is even a subject of debate. How bitter it is for them to look back at the signal struggle that defined their young adulthood, the battle against fascism, and see that it was apparently all for naught; that the very evils they stood against and genuinely sacrificed to defeat have taken root in our own government and society.

And I, as a child raised and nurtured amidst of the sensibilities and assumptions of my parents' generation, am sick at heart beyond description.

sw

[Tin Man]

39. Very compelling reply - you've made a great observation

...you could craft a great DU journal entry around those thoughts. :)

[scarletwoman]

40. Thank you so much for your kind words! I'm glad you like what I wrote.

I'm a DU oldtimer (joined in 2001), but I don't post much anymore. The thought of setting up a DU journal has occured to me, but I'm just not sure if I'd have something to say often enough to get any readers.

In any case, I truly appreciate your supportive response to my post.

Thank you,
sw

[Lydia Leftcoast]

75. My 85-year-old mother feels the same way

She is depressed about a number of circumstances in her life, but the current political situation is a REAL downer for her, and she keeps asking where the Democrats are and why they don't stand up and do something.

She's in an assisted living facility, and the people she eats meals with feel the same way and don't understand why anyone supports the Republicans.

[scarletwoman]

84. It's so incredibly sad. Our elders lived through so much, and learned so

much from what they lived through. I can't understand how little of this knowledge has apparently been passed down. I did the best I could to pass down the best of my parent's ethics and values to my own children. (and it *took*, thank goodness!)

I just had a fscinating discussion with my father this evening. He told me something he's never mentioned before. He said that he once did a little mental exercise about the neighborhood we lived in (a brand new blue-collar subdivision that we moved into when I was 10 -- the first time my parents could afford to buy their own home).

Anyway, he told me that he used to think about who in that neighborhood were the kind of people who would turn in their neighbors for being "subversives", and figured there were about 6 or 7 households that fit that type. The kind of people who would betray you to the Nazis or the KGB.

I don't know what to say about it other than it was a pretty amazing conversation. My dad was a hardcore union activist all his working life, and he's still firing off LTTEs to the Pioneer Press. He feels so betrayed by the current state of our country, and by the Democratic Party in particular -- even though, like me, he'll still go vote straight DFL in every election.

sw

[Mind Snapper]

89. Go to any right-leaning website

they are so scarred out of their fucking minds that an A-Rab is going to kill them, they would hook the electodes up to his genitals themselves

[Tin Man]

93. I don't expect this approach would 'flip' every right winger, but...

but it might flip some of them - especially those that are more deeply understanding of Christian teachings.

And while the percentages might be small, any portion of the Repub base that can be splintered-off during a close election cycle - is a good thing.

[Tin Man]

94. Oh yeah, and welcome to DU, MindSnapper !

:toast:

[gully]

30. They won't call it "torture" but I agree we need to define torture as

TORTURE.

Thanks, recommended.

[yebrent]

31. I have been saying this

ever since the compromise was announced. Including on DU

The Dems should vote against the bill, but not filibuster. Let the Rethugs tie their own long-term noose by passing the bill. Filibustering it would hurt the Dems in the upcoming election. But once it passes, it will eventually sink in with the general public that we are a Country that tortures (it can take a year for these ideas to cement firmly in the public's mind). The Dems will have political cover for voting against it, unlike the authorization to invade Iraq. The Dems can then firmly cement the idea that the Republican party is the Torture Party. We could label them the Party of Torturers for at least a generation. However, it is key that they have no bipartisan cover. THIS CANNOT BE ANOTHER IRAQ AUTHORIZATION. All the Dems need to vote against it, except Lieberman of course. Lieberman can vote for it if he wants. That will just further support the meme that he was no longer a Democrat, and it was good for the Democrats to purge him.

[leveymg]

32. A vote for the GOP torture bill is an act of complicity to war crimes

I may be overestimating the intelligence of some of out Representatives, but it should be obvious to them that any Bill that seeks to immunize torture will be an admission of complicity. I truly can't see the Dems going along with this - a party-line vote would be best.

[progressoid]

33. "torture is a family value"

That's a keeper!

[eviltwin2525]

34. Here's the phrase: TORTURE KILLS AMERICA

Spread it.

[tomreedtoon]

35. "Who Would Jesus Torture?" is already on a sticker.

Don't know who has it, but it's out.

If the Democratic Party really wants to establish that they have morals and beliefs, this is the issue they should push from now until 2008. But, of course, I don't think they have the courage. Look at what the Party Leaders say:


"The only torture we know is ankle strain from dancing
for Daddy Dubya! And it's a torture we gladly accept!"

[sweetheart]

36. A real pearl there...

Oh, the myth of the vapourous center...

namaste, sw.. (good one!! :hi: )

[scarletwoman]

38. Namaste, sweetheart, and thank you.

What saddens me and freaks me out the most, is that the ordinary people of the America I grew up in would have NEVER, even for a moment, reacted with anything other than overwhelming revulsion to the idea of sanctioning our own government to torture people.

I am just dumbfounded and absolutely heartsick. If this bill passes -- and no doubt it will, with the willing complicity of our totally morally and ethically bankrupt Democratic party -- it will signal the true end of the Great Experiment of America. The course of descent into complete barbarism will have been set, with no possible redemption in sight. Perhaps in a few generations, a revolution will arise on the wings of a new Enlightenment, but I do not expect to live long enough to see it.

It really just breaks my heart...

sw

[BelgianMadCow]

41. There have been several possibilities to draw a line in the sand

but this is indeed, a no brainer.

This retroactive legalisation of inhumane treatment advocated by those who claim to be christians, and are supposed to have captured the value voters, and who wanted to be winning hearts and minds,

just BEGS for an unrivalled broadside, if "opposition party" means anything at all.

[scarletwoman]

43. Well, this is where the rubber really meets the road, isn't it.

If the Dems can't pull together a clear and forceful oppostion to THIS, then there is simply no reason to place our desperate hopes in them ever again.

sw

[BelgianMadCow]

44. based on the timing, I'd say it is

I do understand the danger of speaking out in the RW echo chamber, so I cannot judge too harsh when Dems do not raise their voice, maybe they aren't even heard by the media.

John Conyers held hearings in a Hill Basement exposing Bush*co for the fraud they are. I suspect few people know this, and he doesn't exactly have much CNN-Fox time or so.
So people could say "Conyers? WHo??" but that'd be their mistake.

This just to say that as wound-up as I can get as foreigner, loosing all faith in all dems over any one stand to make is not for me to decide.

I truly do not understand why the Dems do not present a united opposition front more often, and agree with you ("desperate hopes") that the time is drawing near when there will be no more sand to draw lines in.

Based on the Dean-Clinton 1-2 punch, I think dems WILL make a stand on this.

I for sure can tell you that the whole rendition/secret prison/torture game is one of the MAIN reasons why the US standing is so damaged in Europe.

If transatlantic relations are to normalise ever again, I'd say adhereing to Geneva, signing Kyoto and submitting yourselves to the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court are conditio sine qua non.

[scarletwoman]

47. Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

(btw, your username brings to mind the name of one of my favorite cheeses in my younger days: "La Vache Qui Rie". I hope you take no offense.)

I feel humbled that others in the world make such close observance of our U.S. politics, when we in the U.S. are some of the most insular and ignorant people on the earth. I cannot adequately describe how ashamed I am of my country. I have travelled (in my younger days) in Europe, India, Nepal, and South America, and so have exposed myself to other cultures and peoples more than a great majority of my fellow citizens.

My greatest desire is to see our present leadership brought to trial for war crimes in the Hague, but I know that realistically that will never happen. My greatest HOPE is that the rest of the civilized world will do everything possible to thwart U.S. imperialism -- yet even you in Europe are subject to the dictat of multi-national corporatism and their enablers among your ruling elite.

I have no answers, and little hope.

sw

[BelgianMadCow]

49. I hear you - we are in the same boat

People over here strongly disagreed with the Iraq War. But over here as well, people are dumbed down by teevee, drive ever more SUVs that never go off the highway and are pans in the claws of big money. We have had a couple tough economic years, layoffs all the time, but banks reap huge earnings all along.
The news on the US is clearly taken from wire services, and things like Plame or PNAC get no coverage either. The torture bill (the current revisiting of it, that is) is not in the news.

US imperialism will come to a stop some time - as with each empire, when it overreaches. The US has been doing that for a couple of years now.

I do think that Europeans are coming out of all this more unified than before. And we would come and reciprocate what you did for us in WOII if need be.

We are all in the same boat.

:hug:

[scarletwoman]

50. "We are all in the same boat." -- yes.

When I am feeling most depressed about the state of the world, I remind myself of what Arundhati Roy says: "The PEOPLE are the other superpower."

I actually have faith that eventually the PEOPLE of the world will depose the rule of the corrupt elites that do nothing but despoil the earth and sow oppression and despair. I just don't think I'll live long enough to see it happen.

And if it doesn't happen, I think the whole planet will be essentially destroyed -- at least as far as humans go. Trees and plants will survive, and some fauna, but the survival of our own species is rather in doubt...

sw

[sweetheart]

51. It demands a total ideological retrenchment, however

It is an anti-war position, as it has been waged for several years now, and the pukes
know it, calling it a veiled antiwar position. No torture means no war, it means
leave (iraq/afg/etc) now, it means ending the battle of the bulge (current) in central asia, before
it breaks out hot(er). It is a resounding civilian command to its representative, to stand
down, and the dems are not united antiwar, they cowardly... grrrr, won't unite on
this point of slavery, and enslavement of humans to ungly death at the project of liars... oooahaha they
peiiss me off sometimzzzzzzzs... but not advised, but by "wicked kings and witches",
a verbatim quote from the tibetan translation of what happens when a culture abuses
the dhamma.

It is unfortunate indeed, that any civil person amongst us, stands with the war criminals,
and signet to how much we are owned by the plantation, as much as appearances of democratic belief,
tragically a coup by those assholes from high school, and they didn't go away, dispassionately.

:-)

[scarletwoman]

55. And what are we left with, if not the Dharma?

What does one do, when one has taken the Boddhisattva vow? Is one allowed to be wrathful? Or is that reserved for the deities?

There will be no change in consciousness until there is a change in consciousness. Where does it start? How is it seeded? I know nothing...

sw

[sweetheart]

57. I postulate an enlightenment

Next door, lives an enlightened person. This person does
not know want, and has transcended the memes of traditional
cultural consciousness to reside in awakeness at the roots of
all creation, of all existance, of a fabric of esoteric light
that links us all, that crying youth in Bagdhad, and the AIDS
orphan in south africa.

This enlightenment is in every sacred existance before we stamp it
with our entitlement, our identification that 'it' is 'mine'.
That enlightened person is unknown, an enigma, a prophetic complexity,
profound, not to be fiddled with lightly, no... the real deal... and next door!!

Saying nothing. Then is it real? Fucking enlightenment get off
your ass and make something of all this or the tragedy will be yours,
artfully, dearest beloved.

Hare Rama

[scarletwoman]

62. The tragedy IS mine.

I'm nothing but a foolish groundling.

sw

[sweetheart]

64. my dinner with andre

dhamma dinners speake rein macbeth... effite elites,
adeau entreat, nomme de plumme 'sweetheart' non

[scarletwoman]

68. Never enter a battle of wits with a Sicilian.

;-)

[sweetheart]

70. ...being otherwise executed

My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father prepare to die. :-)

18 24 61 B 17 17 4

[Ksec]

45. The US doesnt torture people.....

I just heard some winger say this on Fox and he held a straight face. How does one side fight when the other side simply lies about it?
All they do is lie and half the country plays along?

[Tin Man]

46. Dems just gotta 'call em out' on their lies and misrepresentations

US "secret renditions" of prisoners to other nations, with the full knowledge that they will be tortured and information returned to the US, is morally indistinguishable from Bush actually torturing detainees on the lawn of the Whitehouse.

Dems gotta grow some balls and call-out these liars... all while making it clear that this policy actually diminishes our position of global leadership, as well as damages our successful prosecution of the greater WOT.

[scarletwoman]

48. The question is, WILL they? (nt)

[BeHereNow]

52. WHY do you hate 'murikkka, Scarlet Woman?

Why are you supporting the terra-ists?
The good Democrats vote to keep 'murikkkans "safe."
You got a problem with that?
Torture is family values matter!
Who would Jeebus water board?
Sarcasm off...
BHN

[scarletwoman]

63. Dear BHN -- perhaps I love America too much.

That's why it's so unbearable to me to witness what is happening to her.

Forgive me for replying in seriousness to your lighthearted satiricism, I'm just too saddened and upset by this downward spiral into total barbarism.

Be well, dear heart,
:hug:
sw

[BeHereNow]

69. I understand- my sarcasm is my defense mechanism...

I have no words at this point.
I too, love what I have always BELIEVED this country to be.
Obviously, my beliefs about America have been shattered
beyond repair at this point. Thus, my sarcasm, my coping mechanism.

Just HOW does one reconcile the reality that one's
country, congress, and the rest now resembles the
worst of the worst upon the world stage?
Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini look like innocents compared to
the current gang of thugs.
Hugs to you as well dear SW.
BHN

[sendero]

53. Can someone point me to..

... any polling that has been done vis a vis torture? Because I wouldn't be the least tiny bit surprised if most Americans "support" it. Of course, it will be framed as "terror suspect knows of imminent plot to bomb thousands", a scenario about as likely to actually occur as spontaneous hair growth on my head, but nonetheless - you're back to the 200 word problem.

I think Dems are sitting this one out because politically there's no there there.

[scarletwoman]

54. I'm sorry I don't have the link at hand, but there was a recent poll

that showed about 63% OPPOSED to torture. Caveat -- I may be misremembering the number -- but it was well over 50%.

The point is, if you frame the question of torture as a moral choice, how many "good, decent" Americans will REALLY acknowledge that they think it's okay?

And I don't give a damn about the "political" calculations of whether this is a *winning issue* or not. There is a basic human morality that ought to trump all politics. If our leaders don't have the courage to take a stand on such an absolutely MORAL question, then damn them all.

sw

[sendero]

56. The whole point of the article..

... cited is politics. Of course torture is evil, that wasn't my question.

[scarletwoman]

59. Sorry. You asked in your post if any polling had been done on the question

I answered in the affirmative -- unfortunately without a link handy (which I haven't yet had time to find) -- and stated that to the best of my recollection this recent poll showed that a majority of Americans did NOT support torture.

Yes, the article I cited in my OP is about politics, but it is also a call for transcending political calculation in a matter that so urgently cries for taking an unequivocal MORAL stand.

If I am missing the point of your question, my sincere apologies. The best I can probably do at this point is to offer my personal stand, which is (as you said yourself): torture is evil. Any Democrat that enables this bill to pass by not likewise taking the firm stance that torture is evil is a spineless enabler of this evil.

sw

[Spike from MN]

103. There's already an exception for the scenario that

you brought up. From KO's interview with Bill Clinton on Friday:

Like you take this interrogation deal, we might all say the same thing, if, let‘s say, Osama bin Laden‘s No. 3 guy were captured and we knew a big bomb was going off in America in three days. Turns out, right now, there‘s an exception for those kinds of circumstances in an immediate emergency that‘s proven in the military ranks. But that‘s not the same thing as saying, we want to abolish the Geneva Conventions and practice torture as a matter of course. All it does is make soldiers vulnerable to torture and make us more likely to get bad not good information.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14999415/

If you ever come across a torture proponent that claims we "need" to be able to torture people in "emergency situations" and the like, you can tell them that we already have that covered. Just thought I'd pass that info along as I wasn't aware that there was an exception on the books until Clinton mentioned it. I suspect a lot of others weren't aware of it either and I highly doubt anybody will ever hear about it in the M$M. I'm sure the WH Propaganda Machine doesn't want people to know about it this it would take away from some of their arguments for the torture bill.

Sorry I can't answer your original question about polls.

[bear425]

58. I made a homemade bumpersticker that says:

Torture is
UnAmerican

simple soundbite that says it all.

[scarletwoman]

60. Thank you. I don't know how to make my own bumper sticker, can you help?

Sometime back I contacted a local leftist political company that prints buttons and bumper stickers and such with a request for a particular slogan but my idea was turned down. I don't know how to go about making one myself, so your help would be appreciated.

sw

[bear425]

65. I just go to office depot and get either bumpersticker stock or

I sometimes get magnetic sticker stock ( for ones that I want to place and remove when parked ;) ) and set them up in a graphics program. I guess you can use Word if that's what you have. Recently, I bought window decal stock, the kind that sticks to glass and can be removed, but I haven't tried it yet. At any rate, just set up what you want to print and then print it on your ink jet. Go for it!

[scarletwoman]

67. Thank you.

I'll have to plan a special trip, since I live in the boonies and the nearest Office Depot is about 80 miles away. But with gas prices down, the trip is doable and definitely worth it.

Thanks again!

sw

[bear425]

71. Oh, don't drive that far!

Here's a site that will make it for you, I think. Never used 'em, but sure will save some gas.

http://www.makestickers.com/

Good luck and hope it comes out good!

[scarletwoman]

73. You're so sweet! Thank you again!

I went to that link and I'm working on a design right now! I'm going with the idea I had earlier: "Who would Jesus torture?" -- 'cuz I really want to stick it to the so-called "Christians" who think bush* is divinely appointed.

:evilgrin:
sw

[madmusic]

61. K&R

[sweetheart]

66. Burn Baby BURN

Do they really get what kinda coals they's handling?

[glitch]

72. Thanks for this! I haven't seen the Daily Brew since the early days

of the 2000 election theft. Most excellent, he's an insightful person with excellent writing skills. K & R.

[scarletwoman]

74. Thanks for your k&r -- I hadn't checked out the "Daily Brew" for a long

time, myself. This particular piece really nailed how I feel about all this, and I wanted to spread it around.

sw

[glitch]

102. Seems so long ago now, like from another time or dimension.

Back when we were outraged over the treason of the Bush v. Gore decision. They actually lived far below our expectations didn't they?
No depth that they didn't or wouldn't sink to.

[EnfantTerrible]

76. K & R

All I can say is the last senate vote to continue funding the illegal war was 98-0 in favor. Not a single opposition vote. Will it be any different on this issue? Where is the Left? Marginalized. Clinton took the left to the middle and all they do now is try to convince us all that they are still the real deal. The fact that there is this worry over what "position" the Dems will take shows just how dire the times are in which we live. Fuck the spineless Dems.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

77. When right-wingers say, "Yeah, but they're terrorists," I tell them

"First of all, they're only suspected terrorists. Secondly, Ted Bundy and Jeffery Dahmer were KNOWN serial killers, who viciously murdered dozens of people each, and we didn't torture them."

That tends to give them pause.

[savemefromdumbya]

78. WHICH DEMOCRATS ARE FOR TORTURE?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

79. I don't know, but I would be totally unsurprised if some of the

"moderates" voted with the Republicans "in the spirit of bi-partisanship" and "to support the president's 'war on terror'."

[savemefromdumbya]

81. if Democrats support Bush on this one then they should flung out

[Lydia Leftcoast]

82. Agreed

I don't think any of our local Minnesota Dems would support it but if they did... :grr:

[savemefromdumbya]

96. FILIBUSTER NEEDED!

[EnfantTerrible]

80. Which Democrats support an illegal, immoral war?

98-0.

[mmonk]

83. Any who are silent on the issue. Any that vote for any compromise.

Any who will not filibuster any of this. Besides probably Conyers and Kucinich, probably Price (NC), can you tell me which ones are against torture with any certainty? I know for one thing, if any democrat thinks at this time and place and at this critical juncture in the history of the US, that the strategy to use this November is to just concentrate on the economy is probably not worthy to fight this menace we and our children and grandchildren face.

[scarletwoman]

85. I'm hoping folks will start calling and writing their Dem senators & reps

tomorow and demanding that they NOT support this betrayal of our country's longstanding principles.

sw

[scarletwoman]

86. Bedtime kick...

[EnfantTerrible]

87. A kick before zzzzz's

n/t

[scarletwoman]

88. morning kick... (nt)

[Mind Snapper]

91. Best thread on DU I've seen in a while

even if there are alot of demoralized people posting in it

[scarletwoman]

100. Thanks. It's been very gratifying to see the interest this has generated.

I know what you mean about "demoralized people" -- on the other hand, I don't see how anyone with a conscience can be anything BUT demoralized when witnessing the fact that torture is even a subject of debate in the "Land of the Free and Home of the Brave".

How far we have fallen from the cherished ideals of the Great Experiment that we used to hold in common with our fellow citizens...

Thank you again for your support.

sw

[Individualist]

92. Thanks for posting this, scarletwoman

[scarletwoman]

101. You are so very welcome! I am outraged beyond endurance these days.

As I said in one of my posts above, as a child of the Cold War, growing up with absolute confidence in the moral superiority of the U.S.A., this debate over torture makes me more deeply heartsick and despairing than all the atrocities of the past 6 years altogether.

If there is truly no significant opposition to this bill, then I give up on our system completely. It is the final line in the sand, passing this "compromise" bill (what a fucking laugh!) will be the final unequivocal sign that the soul of our country has been irretrievably lost.

sw

[oc2002]

95. If the Dem Party was true ly an opposition party they would be all over it

but the more I see it, the less it looks like the Democratic Party is a true opposition party, or the common mans party, its a party of hacks, lobbies, wealthy people just giving us a minor choice to keep the illusion of choice for the masses.

[EnfantTerrible]

97. The sole purpose

of the Democratic Party is to marginalize, contain, and control any true opposition to the rampant Capatalistic Fascism that is passing for DeMOCKeracy in ths country. The Dems suckle at the tit of the same corporate beast as the right. If the Clinton years didn't make this clear enough, the recent record of the Dems should make it blindingly crystaline.

[never cry wolf]

98. Too late for an Rbut I can K, please send to your reps

and other dem leaders!

[EnfantTerrible]

99. Kick n/t