I seriously believe that my fellow DUers need to consider nuclear survival

[benburch]

Friends,

I think it has become obvious to all who observe our fascist government that they intend to use nuclear weapons in any coming war with Iran.

I firmly believe that the use even of tactical nuclear weapons will escalate into a more general nuclear conflict involving multiple states.

What we all need to consider is how we plan to survive if there is a major fallout over the USA, or if we survive a more direct nuclear attack on the USA.

A number of books on this subject were written in the 60s, and I think perhaps we ought to seek them out and take heed, because the alternative is not an easy death.

-Ben

[Warpy]

1. I don't want to survive it, sorry

I'm near an airbase and a national lab and when the missiles come in, I'm planning to drag a comfy chair out to the back yard and watch the show.

One thing that is always said about a nuclear war is that the survivors will envy the dead.

[bloom]

6. That's what I'm thinking as well... n/t

[LSparkle]

12. Agreed. I keep seeing Colonel Kong on the bomb ...

Getting some last thrills before he croaked ... I can only hope I have some good wine available when the time comes.

[VOX]

23. Getting in line for the "first to go" club. In a world where nukes...

...are okay to be used **again***, well, I'll gracefully bow out.

All my radioactive belongings are to be given to the cockroaches. :)

[benburch]

17. Your problem starts when it doesn't kill you...

and you are even unprepared to suicide. You ought to consider at least that.

[Warpy]

21. I'm a nurse

so adequate means are never far away.

[benburch]

27. Then you have adequate preparation.

Most people don't know the mechanics of existence as well as do you. I once had a discussion with an ER doc about botched suicide attempts...

[kath]

57. Curious - what would you use?

[tavalon]

63. I've been thinking about just that.

It's not something I wanted to think about

[nolabels]

104. We are all going to go sometime

Tragic calamities is just another way it happens. Living in the here and now is the best way not to let it sabotage what we are given. Planning for the future is so overrated anyway :silly:

[bush_is_wacko]

30. Me neither. If this happens I want to go down with my family...

I go nuts when I can't see sunshine for a few days. Surviving nuclear winter doesn't interest me. Can you freaking imagine being stuck in a bomb shelter with a claustrophobic sun-freak undergoing radiation sickness? Believe me, you'll all be better off without me!

[Mandate My Ass]

148. I hear ya

I'm the same way only I'm puke-a-phobic too so I'd end up batshit crazy and/or fragged by my bunker mates in no time.

[SupplyConcerns]

89. Do any of you have kids?

I don't even have kids (being 21), but I still have a strong desire to keep living, in order to do my part to help our project of civilization continue, whether by raising children or contributing culturally.

[WoodrowFan]

101. same here

I'm in DC. I just hope I'm with my wife (and dog) and that we never know what hit us..

[Tesha]

102. As Dr. Stephen Falken said in "WarGames"...

"Oh, it's all right. I've planned ahead.
We're just three miles from a primary target.
A millisecond of brilliant light
and we're vaporised.
Much more fortunate than the millions who'll wander sightless
through the smouldering aftermath.
We'll be spared the horror of survival."

[jimshoes]

2. As the Boy Scouts say

"Be Prepared" I can't help but thinking the same thing. I hoped and am still hoping it would never ever come to this but there are Dr Strangelove types in control of our government.

[samhsarah]

3. Wow, Ben...

This is one of those truths that is too scary for most to think about. But you're right to bring the discussion to the table and force people to take a look. I'm very worried as well.

[patrice]

4. I think we should be thinking about this whether there is a Nuclear War

or not.

The changes we have witnessed in the last 5-10 years are only the beginning.

[samhsarah]

5. K&R

[NNN0LHI]

7. No intentions of scurrying around some wet cold fallout shelter like a rat

Appreciate your concern, but I have given this some thought a long time ago. Hope I am the first to go.

Don

[ret5hd]

8. You mean "duck and cover" won't work???

[Geo55]

35. LOL...zackly what this child of the 50's was thinkin'

I'm just 30 some miles from NYC....tell me THAT ain't on some ground zero coordinates.

[SoCalDem]

59. Try 3 minutes from March ARB and not that far from 29 Palms

I have always lived at a ground zero..

In Panama we were a target due to the canal and all the bases.. In Kansas we were surrounded by inground missiles..then we have also lived near Chicago and denver..

If somebody wants to start some shit, I guess we'll go out in a big bang.

[northzax]

85. I'm ten blocks from the White House

so I guess I'll stock up on marshmellows.

[YOY]

111. I'm ten blocks from Pentagon (more or less)

Babe, we ARE the marshmellows!

[northzax]

125. indeed, at least Hell will seem nice and cool

in comparison.

[YOY]

126. You know it won't be a bad death when the temperature is so high

that your nerves don't even have time to react.

Might as well live life...

[northzax]

127. so the big question, I guess

is should I pay my rent next month, or buy beer? I mean if the world is ending...

[YOY]

128. My Homer instincts tell me

A little from column A and a little from column B...:silly:

[EFerrari]

87. You guys underestimate that protective layer

of old gum. :)

[skylarmae]

9. aren't depleted uranium tipped missiles considered nuclear weapons?

or just a 'too low-grade to classify' as nuclear?

[Massacure]

55. Missiles aren't tipped in Depleted Uranium.

anti-tank rounds are.

DU is less radioactive that the original ore it was mined from. Unfortunately it is a heavy metal, much like lead and mercury, that tends to burn up into a fine fiery spray upon impact. If you don't burn to death, you inhale it and get heavy metal poisoning. Not fun.

[havocmom]

10. Even without the nuke threat, we best be planning an oil free future

Folks, get some potting soil and some seeds. Grab a gardening book from the library, round up the neighbor kids and get some community gardens going. It may make a big difference sooner than you think

[samhsarah]

13. I don't know if you're kidding or not,

but I have been thinking about that a lot lately. We need to become more independent. Not just oil independent, food independent as well.

[havocmom]

45. I am dead serious

Learn to garden. Learn to can. Teach it. The golden age is over

[JetCityLiberal]

66. And save your own seeds if possible

every season. I have been saving mine for over 20 years now.

[havocmom]

69. You are my kinda guy!

:thumbsup:

And I love teaching kids to garden. It teaches natural sciences, observation and adaptive problem solving, AND shows them the way things are is NOT the way they have to be. It empowers them to try and change things in their world for the better.

One of the best things I ever saw at a school in the poor part of a urban school: They ripped up a plot of grass in front of the school and made a veggie garden. Science lessons for all grade/age are easy in a garden, simple lessons for the little guys, more involved for the older kids. Air, water, soil components, weather, plant biology, safe ways to deal with pests, plants to bring good bugs and birds in, composting, discipline, team work, stress relief, feeling part of life! And at the end, sharing the bounty. The garden was next to a major traffic artery... grown ups saw it and it got many to try it at home!

The greatest lab, the best classroom, is a garden.

And it can be a political statement too ;)

[JetCityLiberal]

83. You are my kind of hero

passing life teachings to kids. Keep planting those seeds in the ground and the mind and heart, those are the best kind of seeds havocmom. The growth and life you are planting cannot be replaced.

:thumbsup: right back to you!

[mom cat]

121. Great work...and look into sprouts too. Easy, cheap and you can do it in

the city (if you can't do the back to the land thing.)

[pitohui]

146. sprouts another source of negligible calories

hey, if you're just playing, that's fine, i like to play in my garden too

but if you are talking survival, you need fat and protein

not effin sprouts

[Clara T]

82. yep

[pitohui]

145. learn what calories are

gardening does not produce measurable amounts of them

learn to raise lifestock

you won't survive teotwawki on salad greens

[Dora]

53. Your instinct is spot on.

Once it's too expensive or impossible to truck food from its source to the rest of the country, then we're all in the hunger bucket.

I think people would be well advised to plant fruit trees, now. They don't have the same maintenance as a garden, and they're an asset to any property. We have pear, pecan, and figs.

[hatrack]

60. Beekeeping also an advisable skill

Where else can you find a steady supply of sugar that doesn't require any refrigeration or special storage?

Besides, it's really cool!

[Dora]

122. funny you should say that

I've thought so too. Stevia (herb) also is a natural sweetener, and I understand it will grow in many of our continental U.S. climates. It has 100x the sweetening power of table sugar, but it doesn't provide the calories that sugar does, which can be a good or a bad thing.

[NickB79]

129. I'm set, my dad has the family farm

For the past 10 years I've been planting walnuts, butternuts, apples, pears, hybrid chestnuts, hazelnut bushes, various cherry trees and bushes, you name it I've probably planted it (if it can survive Minnesota winters).

The rhubarb, strawberry and raspberry patches have been well-tended and produce well.

My dad is an avid gardener when he's not tending the livestock or working the fields, and he learned everything he knows from my grandmother, who lived through the Great Depression by growing their own food on the family farm. I've learned most of what I know about gardening from them, from home-made pest control methods to how to graft quality-cultivar apple branches onto seed-grown rootstocks.

Wild grapes, chokecherries, elderberries and native crabapples are abundant in our woods, and make very good jelly.

The woods are also full of deer, rabbits, squirrels and woodchucks (surprisingly, woodchucks are supposed to be decent eating). The two ponds we have usually attract mallards and wood ducks in the fall migration, as well as Canadian geese from time to time. My grandfather and uncle used to hunt out there when I was younger.

The nearby streams run thick with spawning sucker fish every spring, you can practically scoop them out with a bucket if you time it right.

My dad raises chickens for the eggs, and butcher extras for the meat. He has a local slaughterhouse come out and butcher a few pigs and a steer every year for meat, but that's more for time savings. If you can gut out a deer, you can gut out a pig or cow.

Even if the doom-and-gloom Peak Oil scenario never occurs, it's still nice to have plenty of virtually free, healthy food available. My mom and dad raised my brother, sister and myself on less than $20,000 a year income, yet we didn't feel the poverty we were technically living in. Every time I go out there to visit my dad gives me bags of produce and frozen meat.

[theHandpuppet]

137. You can plant all manner of dwarf and semi-dwarf varieties of apple trees

We planted three dwarf apple trees almost three years ago and are just now starting to see results, so the time to plant is NOW. Anyone thinking about planting fruit trees should consider that a young sapling isn't going to bear fruit for a couple of years or so. But even if you have a small yard you can plant dwarf or semi-dwarf varieties of apple trees; just make sure you have a cross-pollinator for some varieties. (I have two dwarf Granny Smiths and one Yellow Delicious for pollination purposes.)

Also, grapes are fairly easy to grow even in a small yard and with a dehydrator you can make your own raisins for long-term storage. (You can also slice and dry your apples and other fruit. )

Nuts are full of nutrition and if you have the space think about reserving some for a nut tree. Walnut trees grow fast and start bearing nuts within 2-3 years. They are a large tree and somehwat messy, however, so consider that when planting. There may be other nut trees more suited to your climate so do your research.

Bottom line: whether or not we face some nuclear crisis there WILL BE a food crisis when the supply of petroleum products we depend on for fertilizers as well as transport becomes critical. Don't think that you can learn to garden overnight -- it can take several years to get the hang of it, at least to a point where you can become somewhat self-sustaining. Make plans to start your garden this spring.

I would HIGHLY recommend Mother Earth News on CD, which gives you years' worth of back articles for only $10. Invaluable.

[Dora]

141. About fruit trees, if anyone is going to plant them....

If you're going to plant fruit trees, do some research and make sure you're planting a variety that will grow well in your area. Many apple varieties won't grow well where I live because there just aren't enough freeze hours in the winter. The same is true for grapes and berries.

Many county extension offices will have info on what fruit-bearing plants are best for your region. Don't fall for a catalog sales pitch just because those blackberries in the photo look breathtaking.

[pitohui]

147. fruit and ESPECIALLY nut trees are good

the main prob. w. some fruit trees being the pesticides needed

nuts are best, less loss to birds and insects even if you can't spray, and they have valuable fats

in a survival situation, you die w.out fat

[Mutley]

98. Look up Peak Oil on google.

We're serious.

[1620rock]

15. Hmm, yes our peculiarly violent and aggressive...

...specie of hairless monkeys is bound to destroy itself sooner or later...might as well be sooner. :nuke:

[Grateful for Hope]

19. I agree with you

Was just thinking about this tonight and, the thought of no electricity (and the uselessness of our gas-guzzling vehicles), while hard to imagine, can be mitigated by taking measures as you suggest.

[annabanana]

96. and get ready to guard any trees you might have

(they are going to look like damn good burning material some winter...)

[Angry Girl]

119. Nuclear winter ==> insufficient light ==> power generator required

If large amounts of dust etc. are launched into the atmosphere, much of the radiation from the sun may be blocked. Chances are then that many plants will die from lack of sunlight.

A bicycle-powered generator (or anything off the grid) could then come in handy, since you could generate electricity to power fluorescents or some other efficient lighting for your gardens.

And then there's mushrooms, which don't require light, are relatively easy to reproduce, and provide good nutrition.

And then there's the water purification thing. Solar stills won't work under low-light conditions. High-tech water filters (camping suppliers have them) are good to have around. And iodine tablets to kill off biologicals.

And then there's the radiation posioning....
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/

[HughBeaumont]

140. Not to be Johnny Raincloud here, but

How exactly does one grow a bountiful harvest in cold-8-months-a-year Ohio? Don't suggest a greenhouse, as I don't have that kind of spare cash lying around.

I'm just asking because I don't know anything about how gardening works in freezing cold weather.

[pitohui]

149. don't worry about it

most of the things people grow in their home gardens create fewer calories than used to produce the garden, hence, why growing a garden is considered good exercise, ha ha

there's always hydroponics i suppose but what really happened in olden times is people grew crops like hell in summer and canned and dehydrated like hell in autumn and also of course lots of supplement from hunting

without sufficient fat you will starve to death, vitamins and minerals are not absorbed, esp. calcium, v. difficult to get any fat out of most gardens

[stevedeshazer]

11. Ben

You're scaring me. Stop it.

We survived the Cuban missile crisis, the Cold War, all that.

Alas, Babylon.

[babylonsister]

14. Did you say Babylon, and whadaya mean by that? nt

[stevedeshazer]

20. It's the title of a novel I read as a young man

It deals with an attack on the U.S. by the Soviet Union. It holds up well today. It was first published in 1959. Cold War children like me will remember.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060931396/104-8281219-5447155?v=glance&n=283155

[babylonsister]

22. Thanks, Steve. I was 1/2 kidding, but will read the review. nt

[stevedeshazer]

24. I hear ya

:hi:

[Tsiyu]

91. "Alas, Babylon" is a great read

The title comes from the main character's "deal" with his militarily connected brother. If all hell were to break loose, the brother would send a message, "Alas, Babylon" ( mocking a preacher they knew, IIRC).

The book is set in Florida, so the characters are able to do more than folks up north might be able to do, but it really makes you think about how you would provide for yourself if the government were to break down.

I know you know this, Steve! Just couldn't resist urging everyone to read it, and I laughed when I read your original post.

"Alas, Babylon" indeed!

[babylonsister]

142. On your recommendation, I just went out and bought

"Alas, Babylon". As if I'm not paranoid enough already about our country, this should frost it, eh? ;)

Edit to add: I had some X-mas credit w/B&N I used up.

I also got "1984" and "The Plot Against America". I think I spend too much time on DU.

Guess I should plan on a move soon, eh? :scared:

[kath]

58. And then there's the novel "On the Beach".

:scared: :scared:

[RebelOne]

97. There was also a movie made from the book.

[grrl62]

108. i read that book in 9th grade

11 years later it still haunts me.

[stevedeshazer]

131. I think I was in the 9th grade, too

But that was in 1969! :)

[grrl62]

133. '95 for me!

:hi:

[Tesha]

103. We didn't have religious fundamentalist lunatics in charge back then.

> We survived the Cuban missile crisis, the Cold War, all that.

We didn't have religious fundamentalist lunatics in charge back then.

We do now (on both sides).

Tesha

[G_j]

16. well Bush is certainly capable of it

to doubt that would be serious folly.

[madrchsod]

18. i`ll do what my history teacher suggested

get out the lawn chairs, get a cold drink, and face chicago...i`m to old to worry about surviving

[Cleita]

32. Don't forget to bend over and kiss your ass goodby.n/t

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

40. I hear ya. I live about 10 miles from downtown Chicago.

If it ever happens, I'll just enjoy the show.

[SmokingJacket]

25. I'm too claustrophobic to tolerate a little hole in the ground shelter.

I don't think there's much else to do about it.

Maybe proactively move somewhere else.

[cally]

26. I once was told that the old timers

used to take anyone exposed to too much radiation out for as much beer as they could get down. Supposedly it counters the the overexposure to radiation.

[benburch]

28. And massive doses of caffeine also protect. nt

[mcscajun]

29. I don't plan to survive. I plan to run out and die in the first blast.

The survivors will have to deal with horrors unimaginable.

I read "Hiroshima" by John Hersey (ISBN: 0679721037), way back when...it's still with me. I made my decision then. Hasn't changed in all these years.

[Cleita]

31. There is no alternative.

I was shown all the "duck and cover" civil service films in school. They were a pile of crap. No bomb shelter is going to save you either because, even if you aren't blown to smithereens, once you go through your supplies, you still have to emerge to a landscape that is going to kill you anyway.

The best information you can get on the effects of nuclear radiation, if you survive, is to study the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The stories of the Americans who were the first to enter there as well and what happened to them is also very enlightening.

We just can't let them use nukes, period.

[benburch]

34. Well, depends on where you are, and how many bombs fall.

What if a nuclear power capable of reaching the West Coast destroys Seattle and Portland... Say you are in Montana, well in the fallout pattern. How do you avoid radiation sickness from the contamination of your water supply?

[Cleita]

37. I guess there is stuff you can take. They pass it out

in my community every now and then because we have a nuclear power plant nearby. I think it's postassium nitrate, but I'm not sure.

[Tesha]

105. Potassium Iodide merely wards off thyroid cancer.

Potassium Iodide (well, any non-radioactive iodine, really) merely
wards off thyroid cancer as a long-term consequence of exposure to
fission products. But there are still *PLENTY* of other fission
products that will kill you right quick if you're exposed to them.

Tesha

[bananas]

38. FDA potassium iodide FAQ

http://www.fda.gov/cder/drugprepare/KI_Q&A.htm

A website I came across a while back
http://www.ki4u.com/

[benburch]

49. Thanks for the links. nt

[acmejack]

36. Indeed!

You are so absolutely correct. It is the unthinkable.

[driver8]

33. I don't want to survive that, either. I told my wife I would rather stand

at ground zero and get vaporized than live a life like that.

Shrubby and co. are criminally insane; they will not be happy until everything on this earth is destroyed.

[Just Me]

39. AW FUCK, BEN!!! Don't push the fear shit, PUH-LEASE!!!!

Good gawd!!! x( Like those fuckers need any more help in the "fear zone".

BAH!!!

[bpilgrim]

41. i think we need to have this conversation instead of pretending it doesn't

exist with the fucking crazies at the helm.


peace

[Just Me]

44. Having a conversation about the "fucking crazies at the helm",...

,...is a different matter.

I object to fear-mongering. I can't help myself. Isn't life challenging enough without that? :shrug:

[benburch]

46. I am not saying it to scare people, but to get at least a few to prepare.

I believe this is a real possibility.

[alittlelark]

71. Fearoin - it's soooo addictive.

[Sydnie]

42. I am not sure I would want to be a survivor

I weep for the losses we have in this country now, I can't imagine that I would be of any use to anyone if it came down to this.

I suggest that everyone rent and watch the movie "Testament". Once you watch that, if and still think you could be one of the ones to restart society, if you have the strength, then bless you. Think of me once in a while. I don't think I could do it.

[hogwyld]

43. Hell no! I won't go!

All the people who want to go out with a bang can count me out. I've got my little mountain getaway, plenty of supplies cached. As soon as the clouds clear up, I'll be the first one with an impeachment sign on the steps of the white house!

[Tesha]

106. What White House? What Washington? What Maryland?

> As soon as the clouds clear up, I'll be the first one with
> an impeachment sign on the steps of the white house!

What White House? What Washington? What Maryland?

There'll be some changes in the geography that we've all
become used to.

Tesha

[hogwyld]

114. Just a metaphor

for saying that I won't let the bastards get away with this. I will not go quietly into that good night. I will not vanish without a fight.

[Swamp Rat]

47. All the more reason for y'all to come to New Orleans this Mardi Gras and

Paarrtehh!!! :D :party:

[benburch]

48. Oh, but I wish I could.

We're poor as church-mice right now.

[Raster]

72. I LOVE your avatar!!

Laissez les bon temps rouler, mon cher.

[LoKnLoD]

50. Well I always wanted to be Mad Max

I'm going to try my hardest to survive..

[mom cat]

51. Fight Alito Now..while we can still do something.

[clitzpah queen]

99. You tell 'em sister: No Defeat.....No Surrender! n/t

[mom cat]

120. Right on. We can do this.

[dusty64]

52. I know they're crazy

and wouldn't put it past em, but ..... one thing obvious to me over these last looooooong 12 years is that they care about two things and two things ONLY, money and power and they would lose both completely. That rapture crap is only playing to their insane "religious" base, they don't believe that shit and probably suspect and fear where they are going after death (if they have any spirtual awareness whatsoever).

[KoKo]

54. Michael Ruppert was onto this

about a year ago. Have you given up on "White Rose" Resistence?

and WHY? :shrug:

[benburch]

56. Nope, not given up.

Preparing for the worst does not mean abandoning the attempt to keep it from happening.

[KoKo]

61. I can understand what you say...

I'm seeing some "bad signs" out there the last few weeks.

It could be we are at the "tipping point" for the Bushies to GO...or at the "tipping point" when for our "own safety" it's "WE" who need to go.

Yeah..I've got vibes. It's a hard call though. We are a much bigger country than Germany was in the 30's.

I've always thought those "hills and hollows" gave us some safety. I'm not so sure anymore...but there are few places one could go to get away from what we are faced with. Just as in WWII it was GLOBAL even into the smallest islands in the Pacific...

It's a hard call...

[bobbieinok]

84. have you seen the new movie about Sophie Scholl??

http://www.rte.ie/arts/2005/1201/sophiescholl.html

Sophie Scholl - The Last Days (Club)

Directed by Marc Rothemund, starring Julia Jentsch, Fabian Hinrichs, Gerald Alexander Held, Johanna Gastdorf, André Hennicke and Florian Stetter.


A national hero in Germany, Sophie Scholl was a 21-year-old student executed in 1943 for distributing anti-Hitler leaflets as part of the White Rose resistance group. The winner of numerous awards in Germany, including Best Director and Best Actress at the Berlin Film Festival, Marc Rothemund's film will humble those unfamiliar with Scholl's story and also serves as a fascinating companion piece to 'Downfall'.

Along with her brother Hans (Hinrichs), Sophie Scholl (Jentsch, last seen on Irish cinema screens in 'The Edukators') decides to distribute anti-war leaflets to students at Munich University as part of their work with the White Rose. Their mission seems to go to plan, but seeing that they have some leaflets left, the siblings decide to put them on the top floor of the university building. And it is that decision to turn back which leads to their capture. Stopped by a janitor, they are then handed over to the Gestapo, with Sophie facing questioning by criminologist Robert Mohr (Held). Mohr wants Sophie to give up her accomplices but she refuses, telling him that she would do the same again. They argue about her actions, but her fate has been already decided.

Harrowing and uplifting all at once, Rothemund's film captivates from the first moment Jentsch appears on screen and neither wastes time on superfluous scenes or rushes the story of the last six days of Sophie Scholl's life. Jentsch - who bears a striking resemblance to photos of Scholl - delivers a low-key performance which is both a superb tribute to the 21-year-old's courage and a powerful way of educating future generations about the importance of going against the grain. Scholl's quiet intensity and dignity in the face of the terror she faced is deftly translated to the screen in the scenes involving Jentsch and onscreen inquisitor Held, the film effectively turning into a play as the two face each other over a table with the battle-lines drawn between 'the law' and conscience.

While December usually yields little outside of blockbusters, this is one film that deserves your time amidst the rush.

Harry Guerin

[sweetm2475]

62. I believe you're right, Ben.

[gordianot]

64. It could happen. Been getting ready for several years.

Repuke relatives will be left out in the cold when they come knocking on the bunker door.

[Lorien]

65. How would Iran deliver nuclear missiles? n/t

[SPKrazy]

68. The Real Danger Is Other Countries Getting Involved

Like China for instance?

China has plenty of ways to deliver nookewlar weapons

I'm skeptical that we would use nukes, although it is possible that we would use low yield nuke bunker buster type tactical nukes to destroy underground installations in Iran that are believed to exist and possibly part of their nookewlar weapons proliferation strategy.

[jpak]

117. Iran has a handful of ballistic missiles capable of reaching Israel

and they have a sophisticated chemical weapons program.

If an Israeli air strike prompts a Iranian chemical attack on Israel, the response would be nuclear and overwhelming (Israel has more than a handful of nuclear armed Jericho 2 missiles).

Fallout from an Israeli nuclear strike would most certainly impact Pakistan - which most certainly has mobile nuclear-armed ballistic missiles.

What would happen after that is anyone's guess...

[benburch]

70. Iran is just the trigger.

India, Pakistan, Israel, China, and Russia are all quite capable of attacking us. And just possibly North Korea.

[Lorien]

76. Um, why WOULD they?

Those are our trading partners (with the exception of Israel, which still enjoys a "special" relationship with the US). North Korea might, but only as a very last resort (if attacked first).

Honestly, we can worry about peak oil, environmental and economic collapse, and the loss of our liberties, but this is excessive alarmism, IMO.

[benburch]

77. Because we first used nuclear weapons in their back yards. nt

[DrBlix]

90. Who would do such a thing?

Perhaps these fools in Washington think we need a "new New" Pearl Harbor.
.
It's been reported that they will attack Iran some time in March as per Pentagon CONPLAN 8022.a preemptive plan using tactical nuclear weapons..check it out.
.
In any case if the US doesn't do it Isael has said they will.
.
Perhaps they will us tactical nukes here ala 911) blame Iran whether they are responsible or not to set the stage for such a preemptive strike on Iran and perhaps Syria.
.
I've felt for some time that we are all in real danger of this happening and it is a good idea to prepare for the worst.
.
Potassium Iodide should be kept in every household. Get some information on this.

[alittlelark]

67. We have a well stocked CO house - far from ANYWHERE.

Our place has about a years worth of food for 6-8 ppl, seeds, fertilizer, coops, hutches......


But we live in CA - what are the odds we could get there?

[politicat]

73. We'll probably have a week's warning....

Not a real warning, of course, but massive increases in tension and threat awareness. It's not going to be like the treat was during the Cold war - it won't be a bolt from the blue -- if nothing else, we'll know when it's going to start because we will have started it.

I know we're 18 hours and 3 tanks of gas from the safe haven in Central Indiana... I think 120 miles is too close to NORAD to be safe, and we don't have a place in the state (CO) that's safe to go to ground, but we have food and water and wood in Indiana and a safe place to grow more as we need.

[alittlelark]

74. You are closer than I am to my 'protection'

Perhaps we should chat about this if things get creepier down the road.

[politicat]

79. Heh... I've got a Costco membership, an Amex card, and I know how

to garden, bake bread, build an adobe oven, make adobe bricks and build basic dwellings, turn an exercycle into a power generating station, dig a privy, sew, use a long bow, split wood... and we have a huge library. (It's amazing what a motivated Girl Scout leader with a yen for Laura Ingalls Wilder can teach a group of pre-teens who are also in love with Little House....)

Want a neighbor?

(Because humor is the only way we'll get through this....)

[alittlelark]

80. I might need one - even If I'm not there.

The times - they are a changin'.

[EFerrari]

88. That pig's bladder thing, though!

:eyes:

:rofl:

I'm the same way. When the bomb falls, I want to be where *I* am because the reaction is always, okay, who has a stone? :)

[Imagevision]

75. Bushco's Washington problems will effect Nov. elections - bomb Iran??

as a diversion to say Bush attempting to hear impeachment proceedings?

[TankLV]

78. What "time" is it on the "clock"? Haven't seen anything on it since

the repukes stole the elections in 2000.

They were winding it backwards every year while PRESIDENT Clinton was in office.

Anybody know?

[Clara T]

86. Yes

[DrBlix]

92. It could be

something other than bombs falling from the sky, it could be suitcase bombs in major cities throughout the country. May even be what they call dirty bombs.
.
Enough to panic people and bring on marshal law and panic the people with fear and they can then do anything they want be it Iran or syria or both.
.

[Greyhound]

94. Here ya go... as of 2002, 7minutes to go

http://www.thebulletin.org/doomsday_clock/timeline.htm#2002

[Tesha]

107. It hasn't changed much in repsonse to Bush, et al.

It hasn't changed much in repsonse to Bush, et al.

I think they're wrong, BTW.

Tesha

[Bridget Burke]

112. Still seven minutes to midnight.

www.thebulletin.org/doomsday_clock/timeline.htm

Tick, tick....

[EFerrari]

81. I put two kits together. One for sheltering in place and one

in case we have to evac.

I have a spouse and animals and kids so, whatever my preference, there are people to look after.

This is a link to a place that sells survival gear -- potassium nitrate, gas masks, all kinds of stuff. Their prices are pretty good and their customer service is excellent.

http://www.geoduck.com/epicenter/order.cgi

[readmoreoften]

93. I'm in downtown Manhattan.

My chances of survival are pretty good, I think. They'd never think to bomb here.

[Greyhound]

95. There is nothing to be gained from this line of thought. For 99.999%

of the population, in the event of global thermonuclear war, there is no chance of survival. Even the "limited exchange" the raygunites espoused would wreck the ecology, causing a massive die-off. A terrorist strike would either kill you or not, radiate you or not, but survival preparation would be useless.

[Spider Jerusalem]

100. I'm about half an hour from a major city and population centre.

There are Air Force bases within an hour's drive north AND south, along with the current headquarters of US Army Forces Command and the CDC. If a nuclear war DOES happen I'm pretty confident that at least I'll be spared the horror and aftermath.

[ProfessorGAC]

109. Same Here

Being as close to Chicago as i am, my plan it go NORTH if i know something big is happening. If the big ones do go off, i want to be under one, not 40 miles away.
The Professor

[Fovea]

110. I think that there is a good chance

that nukes will be used on Iran.

I also think that the retaliation will be gradual.

Read 'The Third World War, August 1985'; Hackett, et al.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0025471600/102-0366820-2586512?v=glance&n=283155

Their solution to the confrontation is also a possibility.

The weak link in the new-con strategy has always been execution. I believe that there is a chance that before we go to a total launch scenario, civil government will collapse. Of course, even partial nuclear war is an unprecedented disaster.


Of course, I discussed some of this yesterday--
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2060472

[Bridget Burke]

113. "Bladerunner" shows the world after a "minor" atomic war....

The movie was based on Philip K Dick's "Do Antroids Dream of Electric Sheep?" The book explains some of the background omitted from the movie. (There were also some outright changes, of course.)

The war was not Armageddon, but the results are evident. Constant rain? Genetic problems? (Like the guy with progeria who "made" friends.) Few animals left? (Fake snakes, etc.) Corporations running things? (Wait, that's already true!)

No escape Off-World, yet....

[EstimatedProphet]

115. If you're serious about this, we should talk about communal organization

A la Farnham's Freehold, Lucifer's Hammer, etc. Strength in numbers. Also, knowledge in numbers too-I can brew beer from scratch (not kits), I know how to malt grain, I know how to distill, I know how to raise fish, I know edible wild mushrooms from poisonous ones. If we all combine our talents we would do better in a scenario like this than if we all tried to do it ourselves.

Also I should add that I own guns and know how to shoot.

[samhsarah]

116. I think you're right about that

[The Stranger]

118. Most of these replies are a waste of time.

There will be no massive nuclear strike into which you can dive and immediately die. The Cold War images are inaccurate.

It is going to be a slow burn and degradation of the world environment and its fading ability to support life (even faster degradation than now) by the limited use of nuclear weapons in foreign wars in other parts of the world.

[hedgehog]

123. It was amazing how quickly the fear of the Bomb vanished

when the Soviet Union fell, even though all the missiles are still in place. No one talked about the nuclear threat except for the geeks for years. Now two threads in two days show that the the fear has been in the back of everyone's minds all along.

[phoebe]

124. not saying it won't happen at some point but..right now this Iran issue

is designed to appeal to the bases that support each regime - each one is mouthing off in the hopes that it will provide them a support system/fuel to some sort of agenda - Israel has an election approaching, as does the US and Iran had one recently.

Having said that, growing food is satisfying for the soul and is a very valuable asset to have.

[RJRoss]

130. Where I live

just a few miles from the Bangor nuclear submarine base, just a few miles from the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, I don't plan on surviving a major nuclear attack.

We did start a vegetable garden last year, and plan on becoming more self-sufficient before the oil runs out. Gonna start a little "garden" in the walk-in crawlspace for a means of income in case the economy collapses...

[byronius]

132. I'm always thinking like this, but I'm still not prepared enough.

Thanks for the nudge. I don't think it will be Iran. If they go that route, I think it will be Minneapolis, and then Iran. That's the smart move for them, if they have the guts. And I think martial law will then come to the USA -- read 'feudalism' -- and I think I'd better garner a few more skills and hidden caches, if not a good, deep hole.

I suppose this makes me a lefty survivalist. Abbie Hoffman was like that, sort of. I passed on death once, so I feel like I don't get to choose it again. I would have to struggle, with every micron, to protect my family -- but in certain situations -- my children without a future -- hmmm. Cross it when I get to it. My wife is very much a get-it-over-with. Me --

Planet of the Apes, baby. Farnham's Freehold (Robert Heinlein).

Republicans are like the Gorillas, We're like the Chimpanzees, Dianne Feinstein's an Orangutan, and Charlton Heston is still an Asshole.

This all started in 2000. I never woulda thunk it earlier. Not seriously.

But we're all damn serious now, aren't we? All Different. We all see it.

[Puglover]

134. Bah...if it happens

I'm going to make myself a VERY stiff drink and go outside, sit on the deck and watch the show.

[ScreamingMeemie]

135. I live next door to Selfridge Air National Guard base and just North of

Detroit and am surrounded by hundreds of shops that create pieces of the war machine...my husband's shop included. All I can say is Oh Well. But, I'm a Pollyanna. I don't think it will happen. It would have by now. Crazy men have been in charge before. We all value our own butts too much. :hi:

[sendero]

136. Everyone should have some sort of emergency...

... preparedness in play. Fact is, I pretty much agree with the sentiment here that if a nuke detonates 20 miles away, or there are enough nukes detonated to create a "nuclear winter", life will not be worth living because it will merely be a slow painful exit.

That said, there are a lot more contingencies that are much more likely to happen in which emergency preparedness will mean the difference between riding out the storm and not.

Food, water, basic first aid - everyone should have at least a month or two of these things available to them. Those wishing to be even more prepared should include firearms/ammo (they are good for more than self-defense), emergency power even if only a little, some gasoline (stabilized for storage), something of value for barter (silver/gold, money could become near worthless), tools, duct tape, .... I could go on and on.

Bottom line, there are plenty of societal disruptions that are becoming more and more likely, not just nukes. I'm thinking an economic calamity/oil shock is a lot more likely.

[Hubert Flottz]

138. Deleted By Hubert!

Double Posted

[Hubert Flottz]

139. We see how ill conceived their grand plan was for Iraq...

and how "flawed" their intelligence was that led us into Iraq.


We see how our troops still haven't put the lid on, either Iraq, or Afghanistan, yet, after going on four years. American soldiers are still dying every day. The forces are stretched so thin they've stripped the US of reserves that we need to protect America. We've seen the Army failing month after month to keep the enlistments up. But do we see what wading into Iran would really involve?

************

IRAN

Area: total: 1.648 million sq km
land: 1.636 million sq km
water: 12,000 sq km

Area - comparative: slightly larger than Alaska

Population: 68,017,860 (July 2005 est.)

Median age: total: 24.23 years
male: 24.03 years
female: 24.44 years (2005 est.)

Military service age and obligation: 18 years of age for compulsory military service; 16 years of age for volunteers; soldiers as young as 9 were recruited extensively during the Iran-Iraq War; conscript service obligation - 18 months (2004)

Manpower available for military service: males age 18-49: 18,319,545 (2005 est.)

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ir.html

*****************

Iraq

Area: total: 437,072 sq km
land: 432,162 sq km
water: 4,910 sq km

Area - comparative: slightly more than twice the size of Idaho

Population: 26,074,906 (July 2005 est.)

Median age: total: 19.43 years
male: 19.35 years
female: 19.51 years (2005 est.)

Manpower available for military service: males age 18-49: 5,870,640 (2005 est.)

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/iz.html

[earth mom]

143. Thanks to all for the info in this thread...

read it a couple of days ago and have since been trying to figure out what to do in case... :scared:

[pitohui]

144. there won't be any coming war w. iran

they can shout, they can scream, both sides of them, they can put up the act but i'm sorry actions speak louder and iran and bushco are the best friends each other ever had

this talk of war and rumors of war is to fool the stupid people, we needn't be fooled by it

who arranged to put reagan/bush in office in 1980, iran

who arranged to totally destroy the army of iraq, iran's greatest enemy, bush and bush

they are symbiotes, each talks tough, each knows its talk

if you want to live in fear, fine, feel free, seems rather a waste of time to me

look at history books from the 1980s before you decide too quickly that bush and iran always mean what they say and say what they mean