Broken Benchs - Ex: “Every woman needs a good pounding every now & then."

[WePurrsevere]

I've lived pretty much all of my life in NYS and thankfully (knock on wood) have not run across this personally although I do know a few people that have experienced similar injustices all over NY. It never occured to me however that these BS judges are not trained in ANY law at all however it explains so much.

It's not only in NY state that this is going on either. According to the article NY is one of 30 states that still work the same antiquated (and unconstitutional/unAmerican) way. Is your state one of them? We must fix these "broken benchs". :grr: :grr: :grr:

The article is long and has many more outragious examples... here are just a few:

In Tiny Courts of New York, Abuses of Law and Power

<snip>

Nearly three-quarters of the judges are not lawyers, and many — truck drivers, sewer workers or laborers — have scant grasp of the most basic legal principles. Some never got through high school, and at least one went no further than grade school.

But serious things happen in these little rooms all over New York State. People have been sent to jail without a guilty plea or a trial, or tossed from their homes without a proper proceeding. In violation of the law, defendants have been refused lawyers, or sentenced to weeks in jail because they cannot pay a fine. Frightened women have been denied protection from abuse.

<snip>

A woman in Malone, N.Y., was not amused. A mother of four, she went to court in that North Country village seeking an order of protection against her husband, who the police said had choked her, kicked her in the stomach and threatened to kill her. The justice, Donald R. Roberts, a former state trooper with a high school diploma, not only refused, according to state officials, but later told the court clerk, “Every woman needs a good pounding every now and then.” ( :grr:Until recently we lived in the town of Malone. :grr:)

<snip>

And several people in the small town of Dannemora were intimidated by their longtime justice, Thomas R. Buckley, a phone-company repairman who cursed at defendants and jailed them without bail or a trial, state disciplinary officials found. Feuding with a neighbor over her dog’s running loose, he threatened to jail her and ordered the dog killed.

“I just follow my own common sense,” Mr. Buckley, in an interview, said of his 13 years on the bench. “And the hell with the law.”

[mcscajun]

1. Good night, nurse! I lived in NYS (NYC, actually) for 38 years and

never knew about this.

This paragraph was incredible (but then, the whole situation is):

Several justices have threatened to arrest litigants in small-claims cases, showing they do not understand the difference between civil and criminal cases. Others have told the judicial conduct commission that they disagreed with the constitutional guarantee that a defendant is entitled to a lawyer.

More shocking:

But one of the most common prejudices on view in the commission’s files is far more basic, and it can be found as often in the big-city suburbs that have official-looking courthouses and lawyers on the bench.

In 20 years in office in Haverstraw, north of New York City in Rockland County, Justice Ralph T. Romano drew attention for his opinions on women, state files show. Arraigning a man in 1997 on charges that he had hit his wife in the face with a telephone, he laughed and asked, “What was wrong with this?” Arraigning a woman on charges that she had sexually abused a 12-year-old boy, the justice asked his courtroom, “Where were girls like this when I was 12?”

This is all quite horrifying, especially when you consider that these "justices" make up 66 percent (!) of all NYS judges, and clearly something must be done, but will it?

[WePurrsevere]

15. I want to find out which states are the 29 others like NY. Once that's

known the word needs to be gotten out to the citizens of that state, asking for examples such as are in the article and asking people to write to their local news as well as their state's reps & gov.

It's chilling what is being done in the name of "justice".

[mcscajun]

16. Ooh, I skipped over that little fact. Hope NJ isn't one of 'em, but

I'm not holding my breath. Time to do some research...

I've always maintained that the worst abuses occur at the small-town government level. Once again, it sucks to be right.

Resource: http://www.ncsconline.org/D_KIS/info_court_web_sites.html

[WePurrsevere]

26. Thank you very much for the link. It's a great starting point. This is an

important civil rights issue that I can't believe hasn't gotten more attention.

[Warren DeMontague]

2. Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick.

That's nauseating.

The entire article is pretty bad: Welcome to Bush's America- petty tyrants around every corner.

[Jim Lane]

25. I disagree with you about "Welcome to Bush's America"

Stories like this one, about the lower reaches of the judicial system in New York and other states, predate the (s)election of 2000.

On the other hand, I have to admit that "Bush's America" isn't an entirely inaccurate description -- some of the people who might have been working for improvements in these courts have had to devote their attention instead to the wholesale attacks on the Constitution.

[Warren DeMontague]

27. I was referring to a mindset.

Where these days, you can't turn a corner without coming across some a wannabe dictator, with a "fuck you, I'll do it because I can" attitude. If Bill Clinton was supposedly responsible for teens having oral sex in the late 1990s (because god knows we never did it in the decades before then) I think it's perfectly reasonable to argue that George Bush is responsible for the increasingly widespread phenomenon of Americans acting like spoiled, self-centered, petty despot shitheads.

I could tie the phenomenon of ever-larger oversized SUVs and monster trucks into the equation, but you get my drift.

[Jim Lane]

28. Yes, I agree with you about the mindset.

What struck me about the Times story, though, was that it isn't news at all. I remember reading about this sort of thing before Bush was President -- that is, before either Bush was President. In the past 20 years, only a handful of these bozo judges have been removed from office. It's depressing.

Of course, that's no reason not to remove other bozos from office, too. I agree with your user name!

[tigereye]

3. district justices here do not need to be lawyers

actually, I have no idea what their qualifications have to be.... other than being elected. Many of them seem to function as arbiters of community values/mores and not much more.


these quotes are very disturbing...

[happyslug]

35. Last itme I heard was Non-Lawyers need to take a Six Weeks Course

The proper name for Pennsylvania's Local Courts is now "Magisterial District Judge" by Act of the Legistaure (See http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/BI/BT/2003/0/SB0904P1905.HTM for copy of Staturtre making the Change). I wish the Legislaturee would get up the courage to say you must be a lawyer AND revert back to calling them "Justice of the Peace" which is what most people call them anyway.

Regulations regarding Distruct Judge's activities:
http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/246/chapter100/chap100toc.html

[madmusic]

4. “And the hell with the law.”

Hey, well, that's in. A lot of really kewl people think that all over the country.

[SoCalDem]

7. Scalia thinks the same way... Here's his infamous quote

“Mere factual innocence is no reason not to carry out a death sentence properly reached”

Antonin Scalia quotes (American Supreme court justice , b.1936)

[Bozita]

8. link to that quote (in case anyone doubts your post)

http://en.thinkexist.com/quotation/mere_factual_innocence_is_no_reason_not_to_carry/186036.html

[madmusic]

12. "harmless error"

Google that for a similar result.

[Iris]

32. I hate, hate, hate it when people use the term "common sense"

like it means something.

[Marie26]

5. There are judges

here that won't give a woman a protective order against her husband if they have children together. Family Values & all. Judges like this are more common than you'd think.

[Bozita]

6. Recommended reading from the frontpage of today's NYT

shocking stuff!

[bleedingheart]

9. District Justices in Pennsylvania have no requirements either

basically it is a popularity contest. Sometimes you luck out and get a good justice. Other times you get a moron who is elected because he has a good name and his buddies help him win...

The last race we had locally was between a guy who had no college degree and a lawyer. The guy without the degree had been on for a few terms, and his main campaign slogan was...."My opponent already has a job, why does he want mine?"...no joke.

However the guy is far more competent than the folks in the article....and he made a point to take criminal justice classes...

The lawyer lost the race against him...

[bleedingheart]

10. Were these folks appointed or elected?

cuz to me that makes all the difference.

If these whackjobs were elected...the folks who don't vote and those who do...got what they voted for...morons.
Loads of these positions are elected positions and are nothing more than popularity contests. No where in the article can I find how NY does this..


If they were appointed, then that is another issue..

[Donald Ian Rankin]

13. Judges and court officials should never be elected, I think.

Or at the very least, they should never have to stand for reelection.

A judge needs to base their decisions on "what does the law say", and forcing them to take into account "what will make me popular" as well is clearly a bad thing.

Those who make the law should be answerable to the people; those who enforce it should be only answerable to the law.

Unqualified, unmonitored judges like this are clearly a bad thing, whether they're elected or appointed.

[mcscajun]

19. Yet judges (not only justices like this) are still elected in communities

large and small all over the country.

[happyslug]

41. I like the idea of elected Judges.

It puts some sort of Popular check on Politicians picking their buddies for a job (One of the old joke of Politics, goes this way "What is a Federal Judge"? Answer: "A lawyer who new a Senator". You have to have some sort of selection, but it should be restricted to people who are QUALIFIED for the office. In Europe, they do not elect their Judges, Instead you are promoted upward by selection of Senior Judges, for Example a Justice of the peace would be promoted ot Judge of Common Pleas Court by the other Judges on the Bench whenever a vacancy opens up. Superior court could do the same from the poll of Common Pleas Court Justices and the same for the State Supreme Court. The Problem with most proposed reforms is that the Politicians want to take the power of selection from the people and give it to themselves BUT NOT TO THE JUDGES. Should the Governor have the power to select the Judges of the State Supreme Court? Why not leave the Supreme Court itself pick its own Judges? An alternative way is permit only sitting JPs in a County to run for Common Pleas Court Judge. Restrict Superior Court Justices to those already on a Common Pleas Bench.

The problem is HOW do you pick a Judge? And HOW often determines WHO is selected. Do you want the Governor or a Judge? Do you want a Committee appointed by the Governor and/or Legislature to select the Judge? Or do you think the people should have SOME SAY? While technically you can get "Qualified" Judges if selected by a Committee, but Bush did that when he picked Thomas to be on the US Supreme Court. Would the majority of Americans have voted for Thomas? I have my doubts.

My point is lets be careful on how we replace elected JPs, lets make sure the solution is not worse then the disease.

[WePurrsevere]

14. They're elected into most if not all positions. In some areas a part

of the problem may be slim pickings of people who actually know the law but there's also a lot of popularity in play I'm sure too.

I just can't imagine taking on the responsibility of being a judge and not knowing jack, or even bothering to learn, about the law. When I've voted for a judge I've always gone for the most qualified unfortunately that's not always the one who wins. The problem is that the laws for judges in NY and the other 29 states with this issue need to be changed and soon. No one should have what happened in the cases written about in the article happen to them.

[mcscajun]

18. They are elected. It's mentioned three times in the article.

The reason is plain: Many do not know or seem to care what the law is. Justices are not screened for competence, temperament or even reading ability. The only requirement is that they be elected. But voters often have little inkling of the justices’ power or their sometimes tainted records.

snip

Neither are most of his peers. And that is pretty much all the state knows about them. Office of Court Administration officials say the only way they usually find out a new justice has been elected is if local officials notify them.

snip

At training’s end, justices must score at least 70 percent on a test of 50 questions, all true or false. Those who fail can retake the course, and the test. “We don’t decide whether they’re qualified to be a judge,” Ms. Dobiel said. “The people who have elected them have already made that decision.”

[bleedingheart]

23. you know...I need better reading glasses...I read it but I was

skimming and reading the "horror" story part and missing that part...

[happyslug]

40. These are elected Positions in both NY and PA.

And that is the problem, these people run and people vote for them for they no nothing about the position or who is running.

Here is some example (From the Albany area of New York State):
http://www.timesunion.com/election/results/results_saratoga.asp?racecode=C9TJ-J
http://www.timesunion.com/election/results/results_saratoga.asp?racecode=CPTJ

[WindRavenX]

11. holy fuck

:wow:

[mcscajun]

21. Quite right.

And succinct, to boot.

[Solly Mack]

17. !

damn

[kiahzero]

20. I've got an idea

Why don't we start staffing hospitals with random community members, and they can inject their common-sense wisdom into the medical process. Then we can start staffing engineering firms with random community members, and they can inject their common-sense wisdom into the engineering process. Everybody pull your job out of the hat!

(I should note that as a lawyer-in-training, I'm somewhat biased towards these ridiculous "common sense should be common law" type of attitudes).

[cynatnite]

22. Not surprised at all by this...

Judge refused to give a restraining order from my abusive ex-husband. He said I'd be in bed with my scumbag ex that night. The asshole told me this to my face.

Ex-husband came to my parents' home, came after me and the cops had to fight with him before they dragged him away in handcuffs.

This was over 20 years ago, but it's no surprise little has changed.

[mcscajun]

24. Check for your state here

Resource: http://www.ncsconline.org/D_KIS/info_court_web_sites.html

It's not complete, but it gives you an idea which states have Limited Jurisdiction courts, called by many names.

[WePurrsevere]

33. Does "Limited jurisdiction" always mean the judges are voted in

by local citiens? All I've found so far is that they are limited to the types of cases they handle. http://dictionary.law.com/default2.Asp?selected=1165&bold=%7C%7C%7C%7C

I'm think I'll try writing the journalist who wrote the NYT's series and see if they can come up with the other 29 states that are still set up this way. This truly should not be all about how bad NYS is when there are 29 others are set up the same way and probably have comparable problems and if not I'd like to know how it's been handled to avoid it.

[happyslug]

36. No, "Limited Justis diction" means they can only hear certain cases

The those cases are determined by the State Legislature. This is opposed to Courts of General Jurisdiction (i.e Common Pleas Court in Pennsylvania, the "Supreme Courts" of New York) which can hear any case (except cases barred to that court by the legislature for example Workmen's Comp claims which are handled by Workmen's Comp Courts).

[WePurrsevere]

37. TY, I sort of thought so but I haven't been able to find the correct term

for this type of "justice" system and I'd like to do further research on this issue.

[happyslug]

38. Various names, the Common Law name was "Justice of the Peace"

And the name "Justice of the Peace" is the best name for it is what most people call them anyway (Magistrate is the Second most common name, In the 1800s Justices of the Peace tended to be in Rural Areas and Small Towns, while larger towns and Cities tended to call their "City Magistrates".

These courts are often called "Minor Courts", other names for them have been as follows:

District Justices
District Judge (Do NOT confuse with District Judges for example in Texas which are Common Pleas court types Judges, and do not confuse with Federal District Judges which are Common Pleas Court Type Judges but in the Federal System).
People's Court (yes just like the old TV program)

One of the problem is that the legislature often use names that have historical basis (For Example Common Pleas Court's name came from England and its old Common Pleas Courts, a name long gone in England's Justice). The Legislature has also tried to "Upgrade" the court system, for example In New York State the name for Common Pleas Courts is "Supreme Court" to show it is higher then the Justice of the Peace (California does the same calling their Common Pleas Court "Superior Court", the name for the appellant Court In Pennsylvania and many other states).

Basically, look at the system. The court of Common Pleas is a County level Court, below it are the Justices of the Peace, above it are the Appellant Courts. Is it a "Court of Record"? If yes, it has to be at least a County or District Court (I.e. Common Pleas Court). If no, it is a Justice of the Peace Court. What is meant by "Record" is a transcript kept of the proceeding? Justice of the Peace do NOT keep records of their proceedings, just the decisions, Common Pleas Court have a transcript of the their proceedings.

Just some pointers as to what ot look for when you are looking at the Minor Judiciary, as it is often called.

[mcscajun]

43. "Limited jurisdiction" does not always mean judges voted in,

judges of the type in the NYT series, but you're certainly not going to find (I HOPE!) untrained judges with no legal backgroud outside of "limited jurisdiction" courts, so it's a good place to start. I used "limited jurisdiction" as it seem to be a catch-all term; some states call them "Village Courts" or "Town and Village Courts", others "Justice of the Peace Courts", still others by other names, entirely.

Not a bad notion to write the NYT on this one. If they don't get specific by the end of the series, they certainly SHOULD provide the info as a response to an LTTE.

[135th]

29. WOW. I thought this thread was going to be about sexist remarks

that I more or less agree with. This is really fucked up. I've been through the upstate NY legal system a few times (tickets and such) and it can be pretty bad, but that story takes it to another level.

[eppur_se_muova]

30. So maybe some progressives could get elected to these benches?

I wonder how many Democratic/Green/progressive activists even know about this opportunity?

[WePurrsevere]

31. It may sound odd but I wonder how many of us have voted for someone w/o

questioning whether they had any knowledge of the law. Unfortunately the few people I've mentioned this article to had always just figured the candidates must have some kind of legal background and were as shocked as I was by this article.

I think something needs to be done to change the laws. To start with I'm going to write Mr. Spitzer and ask him what he plans on doing about this problem if/when he's elected Gov and I'd suggest others who live in similar states write their Governor and state legislators and find out, if it's the same way in their state, what they're going to do about this lack of justice.

Of course that's assuming that this is rightfully a state issue and not a fed one. Civil rights are being denied and I normally equate that with federal more then state.

[Strawman]

34. Unbelievable article. These are petty tyrants!

Operating right here in America!

[madmusic]

39. Only 8 recs.

Kind of a "Who cares?"

[Kagemusha]

42. More like "Who's gonna fix it?"

This has been a problem since the 1900's and before. Though to be honest, I must admit... it is my fervent and sincere hope that Spitzer gets elected and DOES do something about this. It's a big job, sorta like the Twelve Labors of Hercules big, but someone needs to divert a river and clear out those damned stables. (Instead of starving the board that investigates and removes the most rotten of the bad apples, say.) Spitzer's the best current hope. Not an NY voter so I can't vote for him myself but, I can cross my fingers and hope, at least.