It's not about abortion. It's about Union Busting, and shredding the

[maxrandb]

social safety net.

I'm not a legal scholar, but I think I have some common sense. The abortion issue, with it's emotional aspect, simply clouds the issue, and the real purpose of a nomination like Alito.

We should never forget that the Republican Party is the party of "big money", "big oil", and "big corporations". Do you really think that overturning Roe v Wade will stop abortion? It may prevent the middle class and the poor from being able to gain access to safe and reliable medical services, but the wealthy and the connected will ALWAYS BE ABLE TO GET AN ABORTION.

Do you really think that if Tom Delay's mistress wants or needs an abortion, she won't get one?

The abortion issue is about throwing some "red-meat" to the fundies, while they strip away every single social safety net that has been established in this country.

It's all about increased power in the hands of the few at the expense of the many. If Alito is confirmed, the Supreme Court may, and I repeat, MAY overturn Roe v Wade. We'll never know for sure until it comes up. But we do know for sure if he's confirmed that:

- worker's rights to organize will be gutted
- workplace safety regulation will be gutted
- government will gain increased power to invade the lives of Americans
- minimum wage law will be overturned
- campaign finance (such as it now exists) will be dead, and once again, the government will be bought and paid for
- discrimination based on race, gender, age, sexual orientation, etc will be allowed
- environmental laws will be gutted

I really think that a majority of the neo-cons could give a rats-ass about abortion. It's why the pResident "calls-in" in support of the right to lifer's instead of actually grabbing a bull-horn and joining them in person.

Some people have very emotional and spiritual reasons to oppose abortion, and to those people, I say; "I too wish that we did not have one single abortion in this country, now let's do something to prevent them, but an outright ban is not the way to do that". If you really want to prevent abortion then support Democratic candidates that will;

- demand a living wage, because when people are financially secure, they are better equipped to raise a healthy child
- demand comprehensive health and pre/post-natal care.
- demand education to prevent unwanted pregnancies
- demand that we not abandon the precious child after they are born
- demand access to birth control and preventive care
- demand better health care for woman, so that if pregnant, they have a better chance of not producing a deformed, or non-viable baby
- demand an end to the War on Drugs, and stop locking up a disproportionate number of young males, so that they can become fathers to their children.

These people are "gutting" our Constitution, while we stare at the "gut" of our woman. Wake up America. This is not about abortion. It's about the corporate takeover of our country. Alito is one of the last pieces in their puzzle.

:rant off:

[CornField]

1. Abortion has become an issue because Dems don't have a spine

All we need is ONE Democratic candidate to stand up and tell the truth: The Republicans have been appealing to your emotions for years now and never had intention of carrying through. (Which has been made crystal clear now that they have both Congress and the White House.) While you good people have been so focused on this one large tree in the front yard, republicans have been busy ripping up every flower bed in the neighborhood.

Today, I'm here to tell you the truth: NO ONE LIKES ABORTION! The differences do not lie in our thoughts about abortion, but in our ways to deal with abortion. Republicans want to strip rights -- they want to ban medical procedures and put personal privacy at risk. The republicans want to destroy every facet of our society which aids and helps young mothers and young families. In short, the republicans want to see every pregnancy carried to term and then want to forget there is a child which needs the support of its family and its country.

Research has shown that women who feel secure -- who don't believe their children will become fodder for an unnecessary war, who believe they will be able to feed and clothe their child, who know their career and personal goals can still be met -- are much less likely to choose an abortion. Infantcide and abortion happen when women feel hopeless or frustrated by their situation. Slave women practiced each because they would rather their children die than be born into slavery. Colonial women practiced both because they knew repeated pregnancy could lead to their own early death. It is a fact that women throughout history have practiced both, with or without the consent of the government, whenever they felt they could not ensure a future for the child they were carrying.

Members of the Democratic Party do not believe in limiting personal privacy, we believe in creating a nation where abortion is no longer viewed as a necessity by women. There are many in this nation who wear the pro-life label with pride. Perhaps it is time that label was expanded past the republican definition. People who are truly pro-life don't want to see families suffer. People who are truly pro-life cannot fathom supporting an administration which would send our young men and women off to die on foreign soil for a pack of lies.

[fasttense]

2. I don't buy it.

You wrote "NO ONE LIKES ABORTION!"

The repukes like it. They have no problem with abortion, otherwise the women of Saipan (similar to a commonwealth of the US. If you make something in Saipan you can call it "made in America".) who are forced to have abortions would be an issue for the repukes. But they are not. I wonder if the new anti-abortion laws will include a clause so that Saipan can continue forcing women to have them. Or maybe a clause that says if your employer doesn't want you pregnant he can make you get an abortion. You know all those lazy mothers who use pregnancy as an excuse to get out of work.

But the rest of your post I agree with. The women in Saipan are forced to have abortions because their pregnancies and eventual motherhood will interfere with their jobs. Pregnant slave do less work and pregnant prostitutes are really repulsive.

[bumblebee1]

8. The problem the pro-birth side doesn't see....

is if your country can prevent you from having an abortion, they can also force you to have an abortion. Have they ever heard of places like Saipan and China? The one child per family policy in China has consequences. The young men in China now have to look elsewhere for brides.

[pberq]

3. Kick! - Recommended

[bettyellen]

4. thanks for selling us women out on an issue that most people support us

on! sorry, you get no pass on this.
i am so fed up with this crap, it's the reason things have gotten progressively worse for women in this country.

[maxrandb]

7. I don't need a pass from you

I'm not sure what the point of your post is??? I am in support of a woman's right to choose. And the last I heard, the majority of Americans feel that abortion should be "legal, safe, and rare".

If you're saying that I have to support abortion as a means of "birth control", I have a serious problem with that. There are several safer, saner, and better forms of birth control available than abortion. Am I to be shit upon by you because I don't support every abortion, at every point of pregnancy, for whatever reason????

If that truly is your belief, then you must accept the fact that there are literally dozens of people across America that agree with you.

I'm not the enemy here. Reasonable people can come to reasonable compromise.

[bettyellen]

10. wow, you put a whole lot of words in my mouth and they betray your

negative RW talking point laced view of reproductive rights. You seem ignorant to the fact that access to safe and reliable medical services is already severely limited in many parts of the country. But I guess that's not your concern, because, as you say:

"Do you really think that overturning Roe v Wade will stop abortion? It may prevent the middle class and the poor from being able to gain access to safe and reliable medical services, but the wealthy and the connected will ALWAYS BE ABLE TO GET AN ABORTION."
so, that should make us happy? do tell, what was the point of that?

and your assumption that i like abortion as birth control or support late term abortion in any all cases is based on nothing more your presumptions and predudice against women who are concerned about losing their reproductive rights.
it's one thing to not make it an issue in the alito fight, it's quite another to bring it up JUST to dismiss it out of hand- and presume the worst of your fellow democrats like me and smear them- just because you don't think it's a palatable issue.
your last post was even more fantasy based than the original. it's sad.

[maxrandb]

13. The Point

is that all the "pro-life", "What Would Jesus Do", "we have to stop the murder of babies" talk from the right is simply that. It's "talk" and it's "red-meat" that the Repuke's use to line their pockets, and to get otherwise reasonable people to vote against their own interests.

I'm convinced, and my point is, that someone like Tom Delay could "give a flying f*ck" about the "unborn", or the "sanctity of life"...but he sure as hell cares that he can extract campaign donations from the folks eating his rhetoric up. He doesn't care, because, unlike the unwashed masses that don't have the means to fly our girlfriends to Switzerland for an abortion, he, and the other corporate ass-kissers not only can...they will. They can also get someone like Jack Abrahamhoff to provide First Class Accommodations, whore, champaign and canapes for the trip.

You assume that somehow I'm not concerned about reproductive rights. I am, but the only way to ensure those rights is to get out, vote and remove the people that want to take those rights away. We can't do anything until we start winning elections, and we can win elections if the Dem's would forcefully come out and say what I said in my post. The Repukes could care less about the "unborn". It's all about power, and making abortion a Repuke v Dem argument helps keep them in power. They can't state facts, because the facts don't support them. Abortion, for every year Clinton was in the White House declined. Abortion began spiking up again under pResident Bush. Why do you think that is?

I'll tell you what I think. I think that when you have sane financial policies, strong social safety nets, reduced crime, comprehensive sex education, and MOST IMPORTANTLY....HOPE!!!, the abortion rate goes down and continues to decline.

I also think it is pretty safe for me to say the "nobody is pro-abortion". It is one of the most gut wrenching, emotional, hardest thing to do. Just because it is hard, does not mean it should be illegal.

and I am not just dismissing it out of hand, and presuming the worst of fellow dems like you. You were the one who accused me of "selling out woman" and making crazy assumptions of your own. Perhaps you are the one that is "smearing others".

[bettyellen]

19. you ignore that they have been putting up roadblocks and continue

to do so. this seems to be no concern of yours.
you also have no explaination for the utter alarmist crap that you supposed about me in your post.
this is just more of that "don't worry about it, little lady" BS i've heard for years, in the meantime things get worse, and you choose to ignore it.
the right to privacy is at the heart of roe, and privacy is a big issue at the moment, if you hadn't noticed.
too bad we have to deal with folks like you that treat this as if it's something to be embarrassed about.
screw that attitude.

[B Calm]

21. ?????

[Armstead]

5. Yep -- It's about Every aspect of daily life and democracy

It should be possible to walk and chew gum at trhe same time.

Abortion is an important issue, and should not be abandoned. But it is about so much more.

It is about abortion but it is also about workers rights and citizens right and the ability to redress grievencs in the courts and protection against abuses by police and otehr authority and protectibng minority rights....etc.

[Armstead]

6. dupe

x

[RB TexLa]

9. Roe v. Henry Wade covers much more than abortion

It's our right to control and regulate our bodies, male and female.

The slippery slope if it is removed is very scary, could my fiancee claim a right to have my children and I be forced to provide her the means? If I am in a coma could she claim this right and medically remove the "means" from me without any consent? Could she claim a right to know any and all medical conditions I have? Would a judge force me or force my health care provider to tell her? If I am planning to have a surgery with out Roe v. Henry Wade would the hospital or doctor simply notify her without my consent or without my knowledge?

One very simple thing when I pay cash for a doctor's service and they give me that big form to fill out, I simply write my name, my blood type, and that I have no known drug allergies. Those are the only things they need or have a right to know. Without Roe v. Henry Wade would they then be able to refuse to treat me unless I give them my entire medical history and or anything else they feel they want to know?

[bettyellen]

11. the OP doesn't care because "the connected will always be able to get an

abortion"


it's kind of sad, he thinks this is new or useful information to most american women.
i assure you, it is neither.

[maxrandb]

15. Again, your assumptions are showing

You seem to be really good at taking one sentence out of a rather long post and leaping to the conclusion that "the OP doesn't care". I would ask you to re-read my post, in it's entirety, and maybe you could see that I did not say it was "I that did not care", it's the Repukes using abortion to divide us that "could not care".

Did I miss something, or are the "filthy rich and the well-connected" now a Democratic constiuency??

Please stop putting words in my mouth. I can understand you being passionate about your beliefs, but how you could read what I posted, and interpret that I don't care is beyond me. Please take a breath, read the OP again, and understand that we are on the same side in this fight.

[leftstreet]

12. If we outlaw abortion, will your gas bill go down?

That's all a bright Democrat needs to stand up and ask Americans. Right on the old tv. Show people how they've been brain-washed.

[maxrandb]

16. Our Better Yet

I wish a Democrat would get on the TV and say; "If white Republican men were the ones that get pregnant, not only would abortion be legal...it would be tax-deductable".

[B Calm]

14. Great Post maxrandb!!

[tkmorris]

17. Exactly!

I don't want to see Roe overturned myself, but it is not by far the most important issue to be concerned about when evaluating a Supreme Court nominee. Abortion is a "button" issue, one that gets people fired up and to the polls, but the real agenda being played out has nothing whatever to do with it.

The real battle has corporations facing off versus citizens. Secondarily there is a fight between those in the government who would like to eliminate civil rights entirely versus those same citizens who value them.

Alito comes down on the wrong side of both of these battles, and does so much more emphatically than whatever opinions he holds on abortion. I support every single item you listed as things Dems should fight for, and know that Alito would legislate each of them out of existence whenever possible from the Supreme bench. I wish people would stop getting bogged down by Roe v Wade, there are far worse horrors to fear than this.

[maxrandb]

18. Same, Same

I think we run the risk of missing the forest because of the trees. If you think overturning Roe v Wade is bad, just wait til you have to raise children in the country these bastards are trying to create.

I'm also concerned that a government that feels it can ban reproductive choice, will also feel they can "require" reproductive choice. The same folks that want to "protect the sanctity of life" are the same ones that would require a woman on welfare to have birth control implanted in her arm.

This is about so much more than abortion. It's about the country you are going to have to raise your children in.

[B Calm]

20. kick