What if the Dems wanted this torture bill to go to the Courts?

[LynneSin]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2536291&mesg_id=2536291

I know this is crazy and I'm expecting at least 2-3 of you to flame me for this crazy idea but hear me out.

All last night I kept trying to figure out why Sherod Brown and Robert Menendez supported this bill. Research these guys voting records and you'll find they are some of the most progressive democrats in DC

Case in Point:
2002 Iraq War Resolution Vote: http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2002/roll455.xml
Both Menendez and Brown voted against it

First Patriot Act Vote:
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2001/roll398.xml
Brown didn't support it but Menendez did however

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll627.xml
Both opposed to the 2nd one. I'll give Menendez a slide on the first because his district was in North Jersey and there were probably people from his district in those towers.

But overall if you search the record of both of these guys - you'll see that they pretty much sum up what we would want in a progressive democrat. I've had people tell me about how Sherod Brown does not allow Corporations to push him around and that he is a strong union man (Menendez also strong with the Unions).

So why in Gods name would they vote for this bill? This so go against the grain of just who Sherod Brown and Robert Menendez are. The only thing I can think of is that say what you will, but the average 'Joe Voter' still buys into that 'Democrats are weak on Terrorism' and both of these guys are in extremely tight senate races (I'm thinking that's why Lautenberg, another liberal from New Jersey also voted for it - to suport Menendez). I mean say what you will about polls and the fact that this campaign strategy of Repukes pushing the 'Democrats are Weak on Terrorism' but every 2 years they trot this out and every 2 years we lose.

But then I read about this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2536291 which has this:
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/001637.php

It says that within a few days there will be a court challenge to the torture bill.

Now let's face it, does it matter what happened in DC with the vote? We know this administration has been using torture and regardless of the vote they will still continue to use torture. But what if this bill got into the courts and probably up to the Supreme Court and they determine it's illegal. It could happen - we have four justices who follow the constitution (Breyer, SOuter, Ginsberg and Stevens) and four who do not (Alito, Roberts, Thomas and Scalia). And then we have the wild card - Justice Kennedy. That guy is all over the board but has, from time to time shown that he does follow the constitution.

What would happen if we got this bill declared illegal in the highest court in the land and find out that the Bush Regime is still using torture? Wouldn't that then be an undeniable impeachable offense?

It's a crazy idea, but some of those votes from democrats just did NOT make sense

[cally]

1. A couple of us have posted this in other threads

I think they purposely made it unconstitutional in the hopes it would be overthrown in the courts. Once they realized they couldn't block it, they helped to pass it in a way that the courts would have difficulty accepting. I don't like it, the bill's despicable, and I don't trust the courts but I think that is what their strategy was.

[LynneSin]

2. I don't trust the courts either but we might be sucessful in SCOTUS

I just can't imagine why Brown and Menendez would support this unless this was the plan all along but they didn't want the 'Democrat X is soft of Terrorists' campaign to affect their election chances. Menendez is in an extremely tight race (and I'm guessing that's why Lautenberg supported him and voted yes too) and so is Brown.

Torture has been happening by this government and will continue to happen regardless of that bill. Let's hope our Judges will see the light!

[madokie]

3. Beings there weren't enough Dem votes to strike it down

then the strategy might be to let them pass it so it can go to the courts, where we do have a chance. Maybe the Democrats in the Senate and House are more than stuffed suits. maybe

[LynneSin]

5. maybe

I hope


:scared:

[Hubert Flottz]

4. I have thought the same thing.

They are not as silly as people think. The Circus is just getting started IMHO.

[LynneSin]

6. You know politics better than me

Seriously, when you think Sherod Brown or Robert Menendez, you're talking about some of the best progressives in DC. There has to be another explanation as to why they would support that bill (and Frank Lautenberg too).

I understand why my senator, Democrat Tom Carper supported it - he's Vice-Chair of the DLC and is still supporting Lieberman even after the primary. But Lautenberg, Brown and Menendez makes no sense.

And yet there are now people here on DU claiming they won't vote for Brown or Menendez. THey'd rather have DeWine or Kean Jr. as their senator :cry:

[Hubert Flottz]

8. I think the GOP trolls are out to split our votes any way they can as...

always.

I think this thing might explode in federal courts and international courts. Regardless of what Bush wants we don't live in the middle ages anymore. The GOPers are acting like judge Roy Bean runs the country, but I think they are in for some big slap-downs. Can the US afford to become a rogue nation and totally ignore international law and the UN? I don't think the PNAC can pull it off.

Edit...You know politics as well as anyone here and I value your voice and good political sense very much.

[cool user name]

7. I thought about that ...

now, saying that, I will actually read your post.

I'm embarrassed by posting before reading. :(