Is what Foley did a crime?

[Toots]

Or is it just a political blunder? Can he go to jail?

[warrior1]

1. On the internet

Yes. The young man was a minor. I read somewhere he could go to prison. But seeing as he is a repuke....

[Warpy]

2. A rich and powerful pubbie

I'm sure our (in)justice stystem will say "Oh, the poor man, he's lost his exalted position, he's suffered enough," and let him clean out his office and go back to his mansion and cool his heels until some K Street firm snaps him up.

Meanwhile, he'll probably go on cruising kiddie sites looking for sweet young things "who want to be taught about life" by an older man.

Yeesh.

[Toots]

3. You mean with no actual contact it is still a crime?

Talking dirty to a minor is a crime now?? Where does the line get drawn. If I say Fuck you to a sixteen year old do I go to jail as well?

[Prophet 451]

7. No

There's a difference between propositioning someone and just swearing at them. You would have to be trying to sexually entice the kid for the law to come into effect.

Here, it would be perfectly legal (I'm a Brit, the age of consent is sixteen here for both gay and straight) although frowned upon.

[Totally Committed]

10. The other day, a teacher in Texas lost her job

when she took her class to an art museum, and one of the kids went home and told her parents she saw a nude statue. IN AN ART MUSEUM. This teacher had taken this same field trip every year with her students since she became a teacher, yet the parents of this girl complained and she was let go by the school system.

I'm not saying this is right, but I'm telling you that what Foley did was a hell of a lot worse.

TC

[cboy4]

12. Are you being serious? You don't think knowingly engaging

in an X-rated conversation with a child should be a crime?

[Toots]

17. Where is the line drawn and where I come from sixteen is the legal age of

consent. If I say to a fourteen year old how hot some chick looks is that a crime? No I don't think talk alone should be a crime. I think it should take action for a crime to be committed. What if I said I think I may rob a bank? Is that a crime as well? If all it takes is talk any more than we truly are a totalitarian state..

[cboy4]

21. Well, if age of consent is 16 where you live, then I presume it's fine

for an adult to talk dirty to a 16 year old and engage in sexual relations with him/her.

[Prophet 451]

37. Not the same thing

Almost all sex crimes are crimes of specific intent, a comment about how hot some girl is, in the context of an otherwise normal conversation, won't do it. To satisfy the mens rea of the crime, there needs to be an actual intent to drive the conversation into a sexual interaction. A couple of flirty comments won't do it, it has to be concerted and establish a specific pattern of innappropriate behaviour.

With a couple of exceptions, all crimes fall into general intent or specific intent. It's easiest to explain by example: Most violent crimes are general intent crimes. If you have a general intent to go and shoot someone, it doesn't matter whether you were targetting the actual person who was shot, you are still liable (although, depending on circumstances, it might make a difference to your defence). Sex crimes are almost all crimes which require specific intent, you must be targetting this person to establish specific intent.

And courts have always been able to convict on simple words. "Go out and kill all the black people" are just words but if I'm someone people are likely to listen to, I'd be charged with incitement (and rightfully so). Additionally, planning a crime is just words but you're still going to be charged with conspiracy if your words have passed beyond mere speculation into actual planning. The de minimis principle (from a Latin phrase meaning "the law pays no account of trifles") means that idle speculation or "thinking aloud" is not normally an offence. If I were to say "we should hang all the lawyers", that's idle speech and under the minimis principle, can be safely disregarded. If I then gather a group of like-minded friends and we start talking about how we'd go about it, then I'm probably liable for conspiracy to commit murder but it's still just words, the difference is intent.

[Jack Rabbit]

23. Not only can he go to prison

. . . but there was another thread soemwhere that pointed out the ultimate irony: he may be prosecuted under one of his own pieces of legislation.

[blondeatlast]

26. Makes the head spin, don't it? Yeesh. nt

[Prophet 451]

4. Depends

I haven't read the transcript but was he aware of the kid's age? That could make quite a difference.

[Heidi]

14. Certainly, he knows the ages of Congressional pages. Here's a transcript

of the instant messages exchanged between Foley and the minor.

http://abcnews.go.com/images/WNT/02-02-03b.pdf

[Prophet 451]

20. Yeah, um... WOW

Jesus, that's incriminating. OK, he knew the kids age so presuming 16 is under-age in whatever state would have jurisdiction, he's got to be liable for criminal charges and based on that, I honestly don't see how he can have a defence.

Two things occur to me now. Firstly, how long will it take before the right-wingers start blaming liberals and/or the "liberal media" for this? Perhaps a "culture of sex" deal, maybe just blaming liberals for going after him. They'd find some way of blaming liberals if we were struck by a comet so y'know it's coming.

Secondly, am I the only one who would find it freaking hilarious if the defence of Foley was that he was a victim of homophobia?

[Heidi]

22. He can hardly blame liberals for this situation.

As I understand it, the minor was "freaked out" by Foley's lewd messages and request for a photo, and the boy emailed a colleague in the office of Rep. Rodney Alexander, R-La., who has sponsored the young man as a page representing his Congressional district.

It has been reported (by Alexander) that the boy's parents didn't want anything done about the situation; however, the kid's parents being reluctant to have anything done about it doesn't excuse Foley's behavior. Whether this situation rises to the level of "criminal," I have no idea, but I do know that Foley was chairman of the House Caucus on Missing and Exploited Children and author of key sexual predator provisions of the Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act of 2006. He knew better than to be sending lewd messages to a minor.

Since Alexander apparently knew about the inappropriate messages, it's perfectly valid to ask who else knew, and _when_ they knew about the messages and the young man's complaint.

Edited to add some links:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/29/AR2006092901574.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/29/AR2006092901227.html
http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/news_theswamp/2006/09/why_did_foley_k.html
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060930/1004320.asp

[BanzaiBonnie]

32. It's Clinton's fault

The spin is that Clinton did the same thing with Monica.

[Heidi]

35. That would be easily debunked.

Monica Lewinsky was an adult woman. There's an enormous gulf of difference between a 16-year-old Congressional page who complained to his boss' colleagues about inappropriate lewd messages from a (then) 51-year-old Congressman, and a 22-year-old White House intern entering into a consensual sexual liaison with a 49-year-old president.

They can attempt to spin this however they want, but it won't hold water. It would be apples and oranges.

[Prophet 451]

36. Hardly

Monica was 22, an adult by any definition who, as I understand it, welcomed Bill's advances. The kid here isn't an adult by law and is apparently, kinda freaked by this.

I'm not going to call Foley a paedophile since firstly, that would be innaccurate (paedophiles have an attraction to pre-pubescent children, which this kid isn't) and secondly, 16 is the age of consent here (England) so Foley's behaviour, while creepy and innappropriate, wouldn't be criminal but his behaviour was illegal and I'm pretty sure he's liable on criminal charges.

[Totally Committed]

5. I believe it is a crime, and

if it isn't, it should be.

Foley is an adult and an authority figure. The young man is a minor. A person "under the age of consent" is not equipped emotionally (no matter how intelligent) to deal with an adult in a situation like this. Therefore, NOTHING that happens between them is consentual. Nothing.

And, THAT is a crime, or SHOULD BE.

TC

[bowens43]

6. Yes it's a crime under legislation he helped write.

Yes, he can go to jail.

[flobee1]

9. If Clinton can go to trial

over an affair


yes
you reap what you sow

[leeroysphitz]

8. Age of consent in D.C. is sixteen, I think so it may boil down

to the old saying "A dead girl or a live boy..."

His political career is officially OVER but as for criminal repercutions I bet he'll skate.

[NV Whino]

15. Are you certain the age of consent is 16

in DC? Also, was the kid in DC? He was in school at the time. Where was the school... and the age of consent in that location if different from DC?

Can of legal worms, here.

[Lurking Dem]

16. Age of consent

in a lot of states is 16 but only with a partner who is under a certain age - 24 in most cases.

A 16 year old cannot legally consent to someone Foley's age.

[Sgent]

24. Three state laws involved

Age of consent in DC & LA (kid's home) is 16 -- regardless of the age of the other partner.

Age of consent in FL is 18 if partner is over 24. This would only come into play if Foley contacted the boy from Foley's home in FL.

Federal age of consent is 16 if on Federal land/property (at least in National Parks, Battlefields, and Forrests).

There maybe some federal law violated regarding propsitioning a minor over state lines, etc. I have no idea what "minor" is in that context.

[NV Whino]

11. What makes it a crime is

the kid was under age. And I believe Foley knew he was under age. (Wasn't the kid an intern?)

[Midlodemocrat]

13. Well, he definitely knew the boy was still in high school.

AP classes aren't part of any job I know of, unless you're teaching them.

[Sgent]

27. Sex with a 16 usually legal

Sex between a 16 year old and a 50 year old is legal in most of the US.

In this question, 4 jurisdictions come into play (possibly) -- FL, LA, DC, Federal. Of those, sex with a 16 yo and 50yo is only illegal in FL.

Gay sex often may have different laws, or be illegal entirely, although that would open to challenge.

There maybe some federal laws regarding propositioning a minor across state lines -- but I don't know those laws off the top of my head.

[rock]

18. Well if it is the repukes

will pass a law making it okay - retroactively!

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. He resigned!

I was willing to ignore what looked like a stupid mistake in emails. They alone prove nothing. But now that he has resigned, he looks guilty as sin.

[blondeatlast]

30. Great minds, you beat me to it. nt

[helderheid]

25. Soliciting a minor - right? That's a crime is it not?

[noahmijo]

28. absolutely even county law enforcement agencies set up traps for pervs

like Foley.

Republican perverts don't go to jail though that's what sucks. It has to do with soliciting a minor. I do not know though if soliciting a minor is as bad as actually "molesting" a minor but it is still a crime all the same.

[blondeatlast]

29. He resigned in a political heartbeat. What do YOU think?

Hell, he didn't even take the time to consult with Rove or his cronies.

[lumberjack_jeff]

31. Yes, and if convicted of "communicating with a minor for immoral purposes"

He'll be required to register as a sex offender. :think:

Some days it just doesn't seem worth chewing through the straps. But other days it does.

[pdxmom]

33. Here's a story from this area that might give us a clue:

http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_092906_news_net_arrest.2bdaa37c.html

Site is subscription only, so here is the text:

LONGVIEW, Wash. – Detectives in Longview arrested a man for trying to chat with an underage girl after an Internet sting.

Washington State Police SWAT officers and detectives arrested 25-year-old Jason Londo at work on Monday, according to Sgt. Scott Jarmon.

WSP detectives from the Missing and Exploited Children’s Task Force said Londo tried to have a sexual chat with what he thought was a 13-year-old girl, but was actually an undercover detective.

Londo is charged with communicating with a minor for immoral purposes and booked into jail on $50,000 bail.

Investigators are now looking at evidence from Londo’s home, police said.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. There was a guy here in my area too

Who was busted for chatting with someone he thought was a 13 year old girl but was actually a cop. He appealed but lost.