From Daily Kos - 'Foley is not a pedophile, period' -

[bunny planet]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/10/1/23045/4791
a sexual predator, yes, and a cover-up was engaged in by the highest echelons of the Republican House, that should be more than enough to hang them with.
I am increasingly trepidatious about the framing of this story by the Republicans. We all can imagine KKKarl is going to try to twist this into an 'all gays are pedophiles' lie. This could be the fuel he needs to reignite the 'Dems want the queers to get married' controversy. I'm just saying I agree, the distinction must be made by us, clearly. Foley is a sick individual who used his position of power to sexually harrass and solicit young men under the age of consent. The age difference is just creepy and disgusting, everyone should agree. He also hypocritically passed legislation to help 'protect' children from being sexually harrassed, solicited, and preyed upon on the internet, all the while he was doing it himself. The Republican leadership knew about his actions for at least a year and not only did nothing about it, actively covered it up and is lying about it now. They chose their party and politics over the safety and well being of young people entrusted to their guidance and care. It is inexcusable behavior, period.

[Buzz Clik]

1. Good article.

One must frame the argument properly. "Pedophile" doesn't apply.

[file83]

39. What about the "cover-up"? Foley is already finished, what we need to

focus on is:

What did the Republican Leadership know?

When did they know it?

The rest (semantics) is moot.

[No Exit]

77. Dennis Hastert = Cardinal Law

[Imagevision]

134. Foley is already finished? - MSM refuses to report on new 5 pages story

I believe the Foley story is only the beginning, Five pages step forward and the MSM goes selective in reporting again only proves this story is deeper then what is being reported.

Haster & Boner say NO to investigations, they're complicit, that's no wonder!
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/nation/epaper/2006/10/01/m1a_FOLEY_1001.html

[Buzz Clik]

145. agreed, sort of.

We cannot let the debate shift to a semantic discussion of pedophelia versus recruiting minors for sex.

[EFerrari]

71. If I were the mother of that 16 year old, I'd heartily disagree.

[flyarm]

105. me too!..and someone would have to pry my fingers from his throat! n/t

[EFerrari]

126. How many children have been thrown at this guy

in the position he was in?

:mad:

[flyarm]

103. and kos won't let anyone discuss the stolen elections or the lies 0f

9/11 either...kos is a joke!

they are cover up artists!

if it was my 15 year old..that pedophile would be in prison..

he would not pass go or collect $200.00..he would be in prison..i would not stop until he was!

he is a pedophile..and he has 5 pages on his sick pedophilia on record!

thank you du'er mhatrw for posting this..


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2273200&mesg_id=2273200

FIVE PAGES have come forward about Foley! "We Knew About Him For Years!"

Sun Oct-01-06 05:45 AM by mhatrw
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/nation/epaper...

His sudden resignation as a Congressman, a position he loved, came only hours after he was confronted with e-mails and AOL instant messages he had exchanged with a pair of teenage boys. ABC News since has reported that as many as five boys — all congressional pages — have come forward.

http://www.tcpalm.com/tcp/florida_news/article/0,2820,T...

Former page: We knew about Foley 'for years'

WASHINGTON — Sexually explicit messages from former Rep. Mark Foley to one former congressional page might be just the tip of the iceberg, the leader of an alumni association for former congressional pages told Scripps Howard News Service on Saturday.

While Foley resigned this week after published reports of "friendly" e-mails to one 16-year-old male page and the pending broadcast of more sexually explicit instant messages, similar graphic messages from him were received by at least three other teenage boys who once worked in the page program, said Matthew Loraditch, a Maryland college senior who runs the U.S. House Page Alumni Association's Internet message board. "I've known about them (messages) for several years now," he said Saturday.

...

"It was definitely crossing-the-line stuff. The instant message stuff, and stuff I've seen and heard about, definitely couldn't be misconstrued" as merely "friendly" or innocent, Loraditch said.

After Loraditch returned to Maryland and began attending college at Towson University, several male former pages told him they had received Internet messages that were similar to the graphic messages first reported by ABC News last week.

more ...



fly

[Olney Blue]

2. bunny, has it been confirmed that Foley is gay?

[file83]

42. Was he divorced? Has he never married? Does he have kids?

[bahrbearian]

3. He is not a pedophile, that we know about ,Yet.

[tridim]

8. Yep, I wonder how long Hastert gave him to erase his hard drives?

[bunny planet]

9. True dat.

I hadn't thought about that. Let's cross that bridge..........etc.

[Buzz Clik]

11. Ah, the freeper argument: gays are pedophiles.

shit.

[Generic Other]

15. Have you read the instant messages???

If he's not a pedophile grooming teens for sex what is he?????

Pervert warning (very gross):
http://abcnews.go.com/images/WNT/02-02-03b.pdf

[bunny planet]

33. The author of the post I linked to, who is a gay young man

who is understandably nervous that the story will be twisted to cast aspersions on gay people in general, implying that all gay people are perverts and pedophiles. Let's face it, they are not above doing this. The author also points out the legal definition of pedophilia. Read it, I think it brings up very rational arguements for caution in how we frame this and how we allow them to get away with framing it.

[alarimer]

110. This is what I have been worried about

It should be framed as (yet another) Republican cover-up. Sexually healthy people (gay or otherwise) do not engage in this sort of thing. They know that certain people are always off limits: especially those that are very young or those over which they have some authority. In both cases, Foley fails this test. I hesitate to lable it pedophilia as well but I do not know where that line is actually drawn (from a clinical standpoint I guess).

[William Bloode]

54. Pedophiles have no interest in teens.

for the most part. Pedophilia is defined as sexual attraction to pre pubecent children. A 16 yr old is a bit to old for a true pedophile. Infact in a large number of states 16yr's old is the age of consent, which means old enough to have sex with whom they please. Around 35 states have the age of consent as 16(though a few with parental consent). In Canada the age of consent is only 14, but 18 for homosexuals. :wtf:

http://teenadvice.about.com/library/weekly/qanda/blageofconsentchart.htm

[Generic Other]

83. He'd still be considered a pedophile if the victims were girls

I guess I don't see the distinction here. Young girls have often been the victims of the unwanted attentions of men like Foley. When we criticize the behavior, it isn't a comment on heterosexuality in general. It is a comment on the inappropriateness of the situation. IMO, no one has a right to object to a sexual relationship between consenting adults, hetero or homosexual.

But what Foley has done crosses the line. Not as a gay perveert, but as an adult who harasses individuals he has a position of power over. They had the right not to be harassed by this man. They had the right to be able to trust the adults around them.

I don't think it's a gay issue. I think he's as bad as the female teachers seducing students, the priests seducing altarboys, and any other adults acting out their sexual fantasies with underage victims whether they welcome their attentions or not.

I also think adults who engage in this kind of risky behavior have bigger problems than what I am calling them.

[William Bloode]

93. How can he be considered a pedophile?

Pedophilia is a sexual attraction to prepuibecent, and peripubecent individuals. True pedophiles want no or little outward sings of sexuality. Such as pubic hair, breasts, etc.

I should know i have a very firm grasp of what a pedophile is, as i was the victim of one. By your reasoning my 1st wife would have been a pedophile. I can tell you theres a huge difference.

Part of my frear is that with all this hyperbolish name calling we stand to deminish true pedophilia which is much, much sicker.

The big sticker in this is that a 16yr may think it's ok in their mind, may infact pursue it(not saying the ones in question did). But a 5yr old, or 8yr old what have you would not think of pursuing such because they are totally non sexual at those ages, and even more powerless.

[Generic Other]

121. So what word should we be using?

I am totally open to suggestion here. What is the legal language for adults consorting with underage teens? Don't they call it statutory rape if you take a minor across state lines for immoral purposes? Is Foley a cyber-statutory rapist?

[William Bloode]

131. Predator, hypocrite, abuse of power, or morally bankrupt.

Any and all of the above. I have no problem of people hitting him and hitting him hard. My problem is by using the word pedophile as much as folks do to describe any sexual type relation with those of younger ages may diminish and weaken what a pedophile truly is.

The distinction is clear 1-10yr olds are NON SEXUAL beings, teenagers are not. Teenagers may even flirt or pursue sexual relationships with older people. Young children do not, or if they do it is with much less understanding than a teen. A child must truly be tricked into it or forced because they have no real sexual desires to fulfill.

What Foley did was bad enough, and there are plenty of ways to frame the issue.

Thank you for you time. :pals:

[Yupster]

141. Seems like sexual harrasser

fits best.

He certainly used his position at work for his sexual interests.

[Zhade]

164. An imminently reasonable stance to take.

NT!

[helderheid]

4. Well, he abused his power with minors in a sexual manner - do we

know of any legally consenting homosexual relationships he's had? It appears to be a power thing and nothing to do with homosexuality and even if he does have adult consenting homosexual relationships (which I've yet to hear), to call all homosexuals pedophiles is absolutely absurd.

[bunny planet]

16. and of course we all know they've never gotten away with any statements

before that are patently, absolutely absurd. Right? Right.

[helderheid]

29. right. *sigh*

[Subdivisions]

5. Yet yesterday the very same Daily Kos said that Foley is indeed

a pedophile.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/9/30/21525/0383

Which way do they want it?

[Buzz Clik]

12. Different opinion writer. "They" shared opposing views.

[bunny planet]

14. two different posters there. The other one is Jeffrey Feldman from

Frameshop, who I very much respect. I didn't wade through all the posts in response to his diary.
I just think it would be a shame not to be aware that the slimey Republicans could attempt to spin it that way. Whether or not it would work at this point is questionable. I think they really have bottomed out in the eyes of the majority of Americans.

[Subdivisions]

46. I realize they were two different writers, I was thinking more

along the lines that, since the article I cited was editorially chosen as a front page item, perhaps that was the over-arching position of Daily Kos. But, I digress. :)

[bunny planet]

61. Actually Jeffrey Feldman of Frameshop suggests the

meme 'Hastert protected a Predator'

[valerief]

67. "Like the ones they catch on Dateline." People respond emotionally

to those shows.

[seabeyond]

6. i agree with this post. was a concern i had too

something the right will eventually jump on gay = pedophile

also i want to leave the word pedophile strong and offensive, children. 16, 17 is not child. i do not want to dilute the word. it doesnt mean what foley did was not wrong. it was. it was wrong to cover up. it was wrong the democratic pages were not informed ot watch out. foley and hastert and others get in trouble for ALL of that

[ebayfool]

172. Some at Freeperland were already equating gay w/pedophile from day one.

I don't think avoiding the term (pedophile) that jumps to the average person's mind when hearing about Foley trying to electronically fondle these kids will stop them from trying to tie them together.

I've been using this as an opportunity to educate a few people that I have talked to @ the difference ... ie - a pedophile can & will prey on both genders, as long as they are young enough to get them worked up. AND that gay parents will be right there to kick their asses along w/the rest of us! Most reasonable people know the difference - those that refuse to know will never believe otherwise.

If they sense a weakness, a fear, of the word - I think they'll jump on it even more. It's a word that resonates intensely w/Joe & Jane Citizen, I think it should be tied to them so tightly they'll never get it off! The legal system can determine what they deem the correct usage w/their investigation. We aren't the legal system, we are parents & family members of kids like the rest of the general public - we should use the words that they would, & will feel the deepest. Let the GOP try to dig themselves out of the hole they let Foley put them in - I wanna keep shoveling it back on their heads just as fast as they try to shovel it out!

BTW - I saw some arguments on Free Republic last night @ the definitions of pedophile, age of consent, gay v. straight, Monica v. the pages, etc. I must say I was very surprised & pleased to see that a good portion of the freep population got pissed off at the hair splitting the loyalists were doing! They reacted like most people that I know would - w/anger & shock ... & they hated to see the contortions that some were doing to try to make this seem like it was anyone's fault but Foleys' & the House leaders that turned their faces away from it. I think the phrase I saw was 'calling a spade ... a spade'.

Not the Dems.
Not the pages.
Not the gays.
Not even the Clenis!

Some are willing to 'own' it, just long enough to toss it out like the trash it is. And they were talking @ Hastert & friends - not just Foley!

(At least I hope they were truly GOPers showing some righteousness, & not some of our guys over there stirring the pot!)

[valerief]

7. He isn't a pedophile?

<<Foley is a sick individual who used his position of power to sexually harrass and solicit young men under the age of consent. >>

Does he have to be caught in the act of *doing it* with a minor to be called a pedophile?

[Danieljay]

10. Age of consent is 16 in DC,. 18, in Florida, 14 for girls in 8 states...

He's a predator and a hypocrit, but legally he's not a pedophile.

[valerief]

19. But the boy was 15 when the incriminating msgs took place. n/t

[Zynx]

25. 15-year olds are not adults. Lusting for 15 year olds by a 52 year old

is pedophilia. I'm sorry, anyother conclusion is just disgusting.

[bunny planet]

43. By your definition, that would make an 18 year old person who has sex with

a 17 year old person a pedophile. Is that really where you want to go. Nobody is disputing that what Foley did was beyond the pale, flat out disgusting, the poster is just pointing out the potential traps in classifying it as pedophilia when the law does not consider it pedophilia. Abuse of power, criminal hypocrisy (is there such a thing, there ought to be), and sexual predator yes. Pedophilia is sexually molesting pre-pubescent children, that is apparently the legal definition.

[valerief]

52. The law decides who is a child and who isn't. We don't.

A person with a sexual interest in a child is a pedophile.

[moc]

84. Are you a mental health professional? Have you ever worked in

child protective services?

Please note that there is a difference between what mental health professionals consider to be a sexual deviation and how they define/label it and what law enforcement would prosecute an individual for.

My husband is a mental health professional with 15 years experience, specializing in the treatment of children/adolescents with the vast majority of his patients abused/neglected children in therapeutice foster care settings. According to him, in terms of the clinical definitions of sexual deviance, there is a difference between the technical term for pediphilia referring to sexual attraction to prepubescent children and the term for sexual attraction to adolescents, which even he can't remember unless he goes and looks it up. However, the common usage even among mental health professionals would be to refer to Foley as a pedophile.

Then there's the legal side. According to my husband, this situation would result in a mandated report to child protective services, an investigation and likely criminal charges. What someone like Foley is charged is depends on the specific actions that can be confirmed, but there's no question what he did is illegal. The critical features of the case are the fact that the boy in question was a minor and the age difference between him and the perpetrator. The "age of consent" laws do NOT make it legal for a 52yo man to make sexual advances toward a minor 38 years his junior.

Claiming that an 18yo attracted to a 17yo is pedophilia is ridiculous because there's only a 1 year age difference.

Hope this clears things up.

[bunny planet]

128. you have misread what I wrote.

I do not think an eighteen year old who has sexual relations with a seventeen year old is a pedophile and I can count and am well aware of the one year difference in age. I do know of instances however, where the law has arrested 18 year olds for having sex with an 'underage' 16 year old. The law very clearly makes the distinction of what is considered a pedophile and what isn't. I brought up the 18 yr. old being with a 17 yr. old as an example of how absurd the laws definition can be. The court of public opinion is different, and while I am not a health professional, I am very close friends with someone who is, and she knows there is a distinction by law that is different from a diagnosis she might make. Foley should be investigated and tried in a court of law, and in such court he would not be accused of pedophilia. I actually think the term 'sexual predator' is an even more recognizable and strong terminology for what Foley is or has been proven to be thus far. And if or when it is proved that he actually solicited or god forbid sexually molested a child, not a sixteen year old, then he should be arrested and tried for being a pedophile.

And I merely posted someone elses diary over at Kos. I didn't write it, I just posted it with a query wondering whether or not the pukes would use this term to turn the arguement around on us and attack gay people, unfairly, unjustly, but that is what they do.

The term 'sexual predator' is just as powerful a term to label Foley and is in keeping with the legal definition of what it has been proven he did so far. I have several times stated that I would consider him a pedophile for certain if he'd done the same to my teenage son. My feelings about that however, do not apply to the law.

[Zynx]

20. He would be a statutory rapist.

[valerief]

27. So what are the pedophile ages in DC? Not 15? n/t

[Zynx]

32. Statutory rape is a fancy legal term for pedophile.

[valerief]

49. If a 15-year-old is child and pedophilia is a sexual interest in children,

Then Foley is a pedophile.

From Wikipedia:

The term paedophilia erotica was coined in 1886 by the Vienna psychiatrist Richard von Krafft-Ebing in his writing Psychopathia Sexualis.<3> He gave the following characteristics:* the sexual interest is toward children, either prepubescent or at the beginning of puberty * the sexual interest is the primary one, that is, exclusively or mainly toward children * the sexual interest remains over time

Strictly speaking, this definition would include many adolescents and prepubescents, for whom such an interest might be normal; thus, some experts add the criterion that the interest be toward children at least five years younger than the subject. However, according to some experts, a diagnosis of pedophilia can also be appropriate for a post-pubescent adolescent.<4> See entry for sexologist Dr. John Money.

Krafft-Ebing also categorized child molesters into three types: a.) pedophile, b.) surrogate (that is, the child is regarded as a surrogate object for a preferred, non-available adult object) c.) sadistic.

[jmowreader]

132. Not unless he actually had sex with these kids

Rape is a pretty narrow legal construct requiring actual sexual congress--this is good for a number of reasons.

Cyberstalking, sexual predation, sexual harassment, maybe pedophilia...there's a bunch of stuff they can pin on Mark Foley that will send him to jail for many years without trying to stretch rape or statutory rape around him.

[Yupster]

142. Doesn't there have to be some sort of physical contact

for rape to occur?

[zeemike]

37. That could be arguable

Did he commit an act of pedophilia? we do not know but is he a pedophile? Well if he fantasies about it and engages in it only in cyber space doesn't he have the sociological profile of one?
It is like a alcoholic that has been sober for years is still an alcoholic.

[valerief]

41. So legally in DC he has to be caught in sexual act with a minor

before the label of pedophile can apply?

[zeemike]

66. I am saying that the psychological label could apply

He shows all the signs of it by his action...the desire to be with young boys...How young would he go if he had the chance?

[valerief]

38. Is this info wrong?

2003 — Rep. Mark Foley (R-FL) has sexually explicit IM exchanges with an underage boy who worked as a Congressional page.

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/09/30/foley-coverup-timeline/

[TorchTheWitch]

149. Only if the boy was IN DC when the conversations took place

Was he? These conversations were by computer, and both Foley and the boy could have physically been anywhere. The boy lived in Louisiana where age of consent is 17... therefore, if the boy was IN Louisiana when the conversations took place he was UNDER the age of consent.

[CBGLuthier]

18. from the linked article itself

But no, he's not a pedophile. A pedophile is a someone who is "sexually attracted to pre-pubescent or peripubescent" people. Sixteen and seventeen year-olds (which are the only ages we have seen involved so far) are NOT in these categories. This is the accepted mental health definition, and I urge people to stick with it.




That is why he is not a pedophile.

I tried to make this point last night and got my ass handed to me on a plate so this will be my only comment on this thread.

Have fun with it all. i am going to go bang my head on the floor until it stops hurting.

[valerief]

24. But the boy was 15 then. He's 16 now. n/t

[JohnnyLib2]

28. amen, but please

don't back off.

[Zynx]

35. 15-16 years old is a point where it depends on the person.

Some develop more rapidly than others, but it is on the cusp. Anyone trying to be sexually active with someone more than 30 years out of their age group is at the very least a totally sexually depraved pervert.

[flyarm]

58. but the boy was 15 yrs old when Foley began emailing him sexually

explicit emails..that makes Foley a pedophile!

fly

[zeemike]

59. Here let me give you an aspirin maybe rub your shoulders.

But I think we know you are right about the teck definition of pedophile.
but what we need (and please don't hold this against me ) is good propaganda not any highly intellectual discussion of this topic.
Foley/Rethugs = morally corrupt/pedophile That is the simple message that can be used for propaganda against the rethugs. I know it seems wrong and even offensive to the people, like you I am sure,with a strong sense of morality and fairness but that is just what it might take to win.
So it is ok if you don't accept it but just don;t louse faith in the overall good.

[bunny planet]

21. Legally, yes. Also the author of the diary gives the legal

definition of pedophilia.

[William Bloode]

60. Not a pedophile.

A pedophile is defined as someone who is attracted to pre pubecent childeren. The age of 16 is a bit old for a true pedoophile.

[No Exit]

87. Foley is a CHICKENHAWK

That is what the information (so far) tends to show: Foley is apparently an older man who is attracted to people who are very young.

Heh heh. The newer meaning of "chickenhawk"--a person who supports war but declines to put his own ass on the line--is also applicable to those who follow the Chimperor. Foley must be an ULTRA-republican: both the definitions apply to him!

[LoZoccolo]

13. .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuhOj2dQTrk

[achtung_circus]

17. Ignore the genders, concentrate on the legality

Pedophilia is an inappropriate word choice. A 15 or 16 year old page is not pre-pubescent. Focus on the use of Foley's position loco parentis, his hypocrisy and the strict legal interpretation of trolling for boys on the web.

Ephebophilia, as most strictly defined, refers only to an attraction, not to actual love relations or sexual activity (although these can be involved). It is used in contrast with pedophilia, which is an attraction to pre-pubescent or pubescent individuals. In more casual usage, however, pedophilia is often used more broadly to describe an attraction to any person younger than the legal age of consent. For example, the term "pedophile priests" is frequently used instead of "ephebophile priests" or "pederastic priests", in the context of the Roman Catholic sex abuse cases, although much of the sexual behavior involved was with adolescent (i.e. post-pubescent) teens.

An alternate term, older but less widely used, is hebephilia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophile

[Zynx]

30. 15-16 is not fully developed.

Some people in my high school still had their baby fat for God's sake at that age. If a 52 year old is lusting for a 15 or 16 year old, that is pedophilia. I'm sorry.

[file83]

36. Semantics - The man was having cyber-sex with boys.

The psychological impact that activity had on those boys is substantial, otherwise the boy wouldn't have come forward to expose Foley.

Foley is a disfunctional man conducting maladaptive behavior - his career is over because of it - that is NOT healthy.

So the word we choose to describe this behavior, pedophilia, hebephilia, ephebophilia, pederastic, isn't as important as the cover up the Republicans participated in.

[achtung_circus]

47. Which is mostly what I said,

but the use of the word pedophile is hyperbole and inaccurate.

[file83]

62. Technically, but it gets the point across - one says "pedophile" and most

people are going to understand that he was doing something wrong.

You say any of those other words you mentioned, and most people will stare at you with a ??? look on their face and say, "Huh?"

Furthermore, to say that the man is simply "gay" participating in activities between two consenting adults is patently false. Not that you were trying to suggest that, but that is how the right is trying to portray this situation!

So, now they are saying, "Pedophile is wrong (legally speaking)!"

But, 99% of the population understands that. It's just a term used to get the message across about what Foley was doing.

[MoonRiver]

48. Ask any parent of an underage child

whether it is a crime for some pervert to stalk that child for sex, and I doubt that the parent will care what the dictionary or Wickipedia definitions say about the age of the stalked kid. The parent will say LOCK THE BASTARD UP AND THROW AWAY THE KEY.

[kurth]

22. I just call him an asshole

technically speaking, a low-life depraved pervert scum.

[JohnnyLib2]

23. Let's hit the key issue, not the damned twistable words:

there is still a huge pool of folks who are viscerally disturbed by the MISUSE OF KIDS BY ADULTS IN AUTHORITY. Yes, Rove manipulated this pool thoroughly vis a vis Clinton. Now it's our time to mobilize on this issue without the righteous b.s.

[bunny planet]

26. of course I'm aware of the irony that if a Dem had been caught doing this

they'd be screaming PEDOPHILE at the top of their lungs everywhere. Such is the reality of their bottomless hypocrisy.

[valerief]

64. I think some did with Monica and Bill, even though she was a

consenting adult.

[blogslut]

31. So, here's what I'll tell them

You are correct. Foley's no pedophile but here sure likes boys. :eyes:

[valerief]

73. Hmmm, I wonder how NAMBLA defines a pedophile. n/t

[achtung_circus]

122. They don't, because they can't

and still maintain whatever the hell it is they maintain.

[HooptieWagon]

34. IMO, pedophile...

... describes a person sexually attracted to children, ie: non-sexually mature humans. So, while Foley is creepy, abused his position of authority, and possibly committed crimes against a minor (depending on age of consent in various states) - technically he probably isn't a pedophile.
But, that doesn't mean we shouldn't use the term. Gay or straight, a pedophile is the strongest verbal imagery. It forces repukes into argueing that Foley is not a pedophile, which then sounds like they are defending Foley's actions. A fair fight? No. Giving the pukes a taste of their own medicine? Absolutely.

[flyarm]

65. nonsense!! i raised a 15 yr old..and if anyone had sexually contacted my

son in the manner Foley contacted this child of age 15 ..i would call the perp what he is ..a damn pedophile!

this is one mother that is not buying the bullshit!

i was also on a jury in Kansas of a 21 yr old who enticed and had sex with a girl of age 16 and the guy was convicted of statutory rape..

this boy was 15 years old when Foley began emailing him sexually explicit emails..that is pedophelia...

people wanting to call it anything else are being disingenuous!

and this mom is not buying it!

and i assure you, had it been my son..that mother fucker would have been in court with his dick tied long ago!

fly

[NNN0LHI]

94. I ain't buying it either

I have two grown daughters and if any 53 year old man had been communicating with either of them at 16 years old in the same manner Foley was doing with this 16 year old kid I would have ripped his heart out.

Don

[flyarm]

116. this child was 15 yrs old when Foley began his sexual pedophilia

via the internet and emails with him..15 is a child in florida courts!

fly

[burythehatchet]

107. flyarm, is there anything

we disagree on. :shrug:

[flyarm]

115. i can't find anything yet!! lol...

:patriot: :applause: :hug: :shrug: :hi: :thumbsup: :wow:

fly

[spoony]

160. Thank you!

I've been very confused about the way the semantics have turned here in the last couple of days. I consider the man a pedophile, to me it seems pretty clear. All the hair-splitting about 15 vs. 16 and gender and blah blah, but the fact is that he was a sick predator going after a child.

[fujiyama]

153. It is DEFINETELY a fair fight

Fuck them. They covered this shit up. They are no better than pedophile preists. Hastert is Cardinal Law, or better yet is the Pope himself. This is simply sick, fucked up behavior that only truly depraved people will defend. I say let them defend their pedophile bretheren.

Dems have to tear them apart over this. I swear if Americans still vote repuke after this, nothing will get them to vote otherwise.

And if Hastert's district votes for that fuckin pile of shit they deserve the award of the "most fucked up district". Anyone that could in good conscience defend these kind of actions deserves to be locked up or worse.

[moc]

40. My husband is a mental health professional and calls Foley a pedophile.

He specializes in child/adolescent, by the way. He acknowledges that while there is technically a different term for sexual attraction to adolescents vs. pre-pubescent children, the common usage of the term even among mental health professionals would be to refer to Foley as a pedophile.

As I have posted elsewhere, this "age of consent" is crap that can't be used to justify/legalize/rationalize the sexual advances of a man toward a minor 38 years his junior.

I find these "is it or isn't pedophilia" and "is it excusable because of age of consent laws" debates ridiculous.

[JohnnyLib2]

55. right on

--as I just posted, let's stay away from the "twistable" words.

[William Bloode]

68. Ah but it's not ridiculous.

For the simple fact he will be punished by these laws that make the determination. The laws you have are what makes the definition, you opinion is just that an opinion. Not being snarky just pointing out the plain facts.

[moc]

88. That's fine, but I think given the fact

my husband has 15 years of experience in treating abuse/neglected children, he's got a pretty good idea of what would be considered illegal and what wouldn't, don't you?

[William Bloode]

96. Not really.

In 35 states like it or not 16 or less is the age of consent. Theres a HUGE difference in someone attracted to mostly sexually mature young adults, than 1-10 yr old kids. A 16 yr old may in fact pursue such things, even rationalize it. A 5 yr old or 8 yr old could not do the same as they are non sexual at those ages, and much more easily manipulated.

I have a very fine grasp of what a pedophile is. I was the victim of one at the age of 5, and for a few years. By your definition my 1st wife was a pedophile.

Arguments like yours i find harmful because the diminish the true meaning of pedophilia.

* edit to add---->

These distinctions are important. I was a gay basher and hater for years, because my attacker was a male. I blamed homosexuals, when in fact i was guilty of the same thing you are. I labeled someone, or something wrongly. He was a pedophile, not a homosexual, and i am a better man today for knowing the difference.

[moc]

98. My husband has work experience in multiple states where

the "age of consent" is 16.

If you don't think he knows how the laws are applied, fine.

With regards to your first wife, was she a minor and were you 38 years her senior?

[William Bloode]

101. Not 38 but 15.

I was 15 she was 30. I loved her, i wanted her, i pursued her. In retrospect yeah it may be a bit creepy but i did not look at as such then.

Also if you husband works in states where the age of consent is just 16 then he knows this is not pedophilia. It's just his opinion.

[moc]

117. You're right, it's creepy.

Sorry, just had to be honest.

I think what people are missing in this whole debate is that it's not black and white. It's not like there's a specific age cut-off or an age difference in which one can distinguish between situations that are definitely in the "Yes" camp (it's pedophilia, it's illegal, whatever), and those that aren't.

The truth is that human behavior is complicated and messy, and it often fails to fall into neat little cubby holes. What has to be considered is the context of the situation. What actions were taken by which individuals? Who pursued whom? Is there a pattern of behavior on the part of the adult? In the case of Foley, it appears he has a long history of pursuing sex with minors. It was him making the advances, he did it repeatedly, and there was a 3+ decade age difference between him and the object(s) of his desire. It's the totality of these facts that make him a pedophile (allowing for the fact that the common usage of the term vs. the more technical term for prepubescents vs. adolescents).

[William Bloode]

133. It may seem creepy to some sure.

Truth is though i pursued her to no end. She told me a million times i was too young for her, but i wore her down. Beside i never, ever saw myself as harmed. In fact that relationship was actually mostly good for me. And that probably does sound creepy.

My point is yes Foley screwed up big time. What he did was immoral, and wrong, a huge abuse of power. We can frame it that way easily enough. We don't have to go the hyperbolic route of calling him a pedophile. My concern is that if this path is continued, (and it's a larger problem than just this single incident)you risk the chance of watering down the true meaning of pedophilia, which is a much sicker bag.

Also you are right on how and what to classify. Some 14yr old may have not developed enough, and that could be construed by some as pedophilia. Due to lack of sexual development. Maybe we need a more case by case assessment.

Nice talking to you but i gotta run and finish my crumb cake. Have a nice day, and take care. :hi:

[flyarm]

120. this child was 15 yrs old when this began..not 16 !! n/t

[William Bloode]

135. Again still not a pedophile.

Pedophiles like children with little or no sexual development, such as pubic hair, breasts, etc. Now you may have some case if he was one of those young gentlemen who are very late bloomers.

Also again, by equating these and other such actions to true pedophilia you run the risk of diminishing the power of the word. Kinda like how anyone can be a hero these days. Over use of the word hero has diminished it's power to virtually nothing.

Gotta run and fix my cake now. Have a good day and take care.:hi:

[flyarm]

74. absolutely..just ask any mom of a boy that age!!..

any mom i know would want that pedophile locked up and the key thrown away, of a sick son of a bitch like Foley!

he is just damn lucky it wasn't my son..no one would have been able to cover it up..i would have served him his dick on a platter!

big time!

he would have long ago been sitting in a prison cell!

fly

[KittyWampus]

44. So the Iraqi GIRL who was raped was actually a WOMAN?

[valerief]

56. Oh, I think to the GOP, she was a mature, beyond-her-prime woman. nt

[bunny planet]

70. please don't even suggest that this is what I'm saying.

its really insulting.

[flyarm]

81. well she was if you listened to our media and how they

twisted it!

fuck our media..we are adults and we know damn well what was done to that child and this child ..Foley is a pedophile..

say it and mean it..because that is what he is ..he is a perv pedophile!

and this republican congress covered up his crimes!

fly

[Lars39]

45. If most of the general public only understands the word 'pedophile',

I say stick with it.
I'm tired of giving the GOP any 'word hooks' that allows them to reframe their asses out of trouble.

[treestar]

76. Exactly, and do we think for a millisecond that kkkarl wouldn't be

using that term and sticking with it in spite of the legal definition if it were a Democrat?

[Beelzebud]

50. In the minds of many, yes he is.

People don't give a shit about legal definitions of words.

In most people's eyes when a 50+ year old hits on a 16 year old, that is in pedophile territory.

[bunny planet]

51. perhaps the words 'potential pedophile' would be appropriate.

Nobody knows exactly what this shit has done or is capable of. I admit that if it was my son who had been solicited, and he is 14 going on 15, I'd be kicking Foley's ass for being a pedophile for sure.

[reality based]

53. To paraphrase LBJ--

Call him a pedophile and make him and his enablers defend it. This semantic exercise is counterproductive in my opinion. If it's my high school son he's hitting on, the SOB is a perverted, predatory pedophile. Read the entire Wikipedia entry on pedophilia cited above. Check out the age of consent in the child's home state, where he apparently received some of the email. Now, get back on message.

[treestar]

72. Thing is, the repukes would never do this

They would keep using the term. What will the dems be left with to call him? Nothing as hard-hitting.

Most of the sheeple would go along with the pedophile label, so why not use it? kkkkarl would.

The niceties of the legal distinctions escape the sheeple. They don't care about the torture bill or the evisceration of human rights, but they sure will find this interesting. And emotionally, they will see it as pedophilia. That matters more than legal distinctions when it comes to the sheeple.

[reality based]

91. Count me as one of the sheeple on this. The Republicans have enabled a

pedophile to operate within the halls of Congess and a male prostitute to cavort about the White House and the torturer "President" to prance about in a flight suit on the deck of an aircraft carrier. I think the sheeple are beginning to get the picture. Wonder what they're saying at Sunday School this morning?

[treestar]

95. Not to mention the damage to national security that it does to

risk having the pedophile operating in the halls of Congress with the full consent of the other repukes therein. :propaganda:

[reality based]

99. It certainly does help our enemies to portray Abu Ghraib, Gitmo and

other abuses as part of the prevailing culture. The only way we are going to restore our respectability in the world is to hold people at high levels responsible for what is transpiring.

[donco6]

57. Is he a Bible thumper?

Because the Bible would say that if you have commited the act in your heart, you have commited the act. I have not doubt whatsoever that - given the chance - Foley would have taken physical advantage of this kid. So why not throw this back in their face? They do it to us all the time.


And I'm a gay man so I'm not casting aspersions to gay people. I'm talking about this particular case.

[valerief]

63. Good call, but shouldn't religion be kept out of government? There

should be enough moral highground and legal tools to use without resorting a personal belief system that doesn't belong in government.

[zeemike]

79. How about a compromise...

Keep religion out of it unless they raise the subject and then through it in there face
But it may not work too well anyway because it was Jesus that said that about what is in the heart and the fundies don't care much for what Jesus said anyway.

[donco6]

80. So we go to the gunfight with butter knives again, eh?

I'm not talking about government, I'm talking about politics. I wouldn't call for enacting laws that punish people based on what we think was in their heart, I'm talking about holding Bible thumpers accountable to their own religious teachings, with which they freely beat us about the head and shoulders any chance they get. I believe that is perfectly fair - in fact, I think it's imperative. These people have been able to get away with cherry-picking verses at will, with no regard for the entire message of the Bible. And we sit there with our hands in our lap because "we don't want to offend anyone's religion." I don't think it's offensive to Christianity to point out the hypocrisy of its followers - after all Jesus was quite a master at that, as I recall.

[zeemike]

86. You get it n/t

[valerief]

100. If the religion card is to be used, it should be used in a religious

arena like a church. You know, where the GOP message is spread. Innocent non-religious people shouldn't be assaulted with religion as an offensive tactic. People get enough of that from the faith-based GOP.

[EFerrari]

69. This KOS poster needs ot get out of the way. n/t

[flyarm]

85. i can't stand Kos..they cover everything up!..9/11 , election fraud..

fuck half the time i think they are republican infiltraitors!

you can't mention election fraud over there..or the lies of 9/11

they are frauds themselves!

now they don't want anyone to call a pedophile ..a pedophile..bullshit!

fly

[EFerrari]

90. I never go there. I can't stand them either.

[Swamp Rat]

139. ditto!!!

[EFerrari]

146. DU is 'way more progressive than KOS.

Hey, there, Swampy!

:hi:

[misternormal]

75. What better way to rob a candy store...

... than to work in one?

[Zodiak]

78. If you are uncocmfortable with using "pedophile"...

then call it "sexual predator". That word has been just as ingrained in people as "pedophile priest".

I also saw another frame here on DU today that Hastert is the Cardinal Law of this incident. I like that frame, as well, because everyone knows who Law was and what he did. It is perfect.

So pedophile, sexual predator...either one fits neatly on a bumper sticker and will resonate.

Now I feel dirty for even suggest a "frame". Damn the GOP has made our poltics so coarse.

[brook]

82. "Sexual predator"

works for me. It's an image anyone can understand. Hyperbole isn't necessary. The truth is he tried to use his power to prey on young boys. The other truth is that it was covered up by Leadership. It's also important not to allow this to be a gay issue. Foley's facination with teenagers isn't because he's gay. In this, he's no different than men who fancy much younger women/girls...which he might very well have had his sexual orientation been hetero.

[flyarm]

89. oh so lets just clean up their dirty deeds..just like kos cleaned up 9/11

and stealing elections!!

bullshit..call it what it is..this boy..child was 15 years old when this bagan by Foley..

child..get that ..he was a child!

pedophile..say it and mean it!

fly

[flyarm]

92. FIVE PAGES have come forward about Foley! "We Knew About Him For Years!"[/

Foley is a pedophile..Foley is a pedophile,Foley is a pedophile..say it and mean it!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2273200&mesg_id=2273200
thank you du'er mhatrw for posting this..


FIVE PAGES have come forward about Foley! "We Knew About Him For Years!"

Sun Oct-01-06 05:45 AM by mhatrw
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/nation/epaper...

His sudden resignation as a Congressman, a position he loved, came only hours after he was confronted with e-mails and AOL instant messages he had exchanged with a pair of teenage boys. ABC News since has reported that as many as five boys — all congressional pages — have come forward.

http://www.tcpalm.com/tcp/florida_news/article/0,2820,T...

Former page: We knew about Foley 'for years'

WASHINGTON — Sexually explicit messages from former Rep. Mark Foley to one former congressional page might be just the tip of the iceberg, the leader of an alumni association for former congressional pages told Scripps Howard News Service on Saturday.

While Foley resigned this week after published reports of "friendly" e-mails to one 16-year-old male page and the pending broadcast of more sexually explicit instant messages, similar graphic messages from him were received by at least three other teenage boys who once worked in the page program, said Matthew Loraditch, a Maryland college senior who runs the U.S. House Page Alumni Association's Internet message board. "I've known about them (messages) for several years now," he said Saturday.

...

"It was definitely crossing-the-line stuff. The instant message stuff, and stuff I've seen and heard about, definitely couldn't be misconstrued" as merely "friendly" or innocent, Loraditch said.

After Loraditch returned to Maryland and began attending college at Towson University, several male former pages told him they had received Internet messages that were similar to the graphic messages first reported by ABC News last week.

more ...


tell kos to stick it..with their cover up shit..

this is pedophlia..plain and simple..and we had a pedophile in our congress and the Republican Party covered it up for at least..a year..who was abusing children on their computers with sexually explicit emails

fly

[valerief]

106. You got that right! nt

[brook]

123. I didn't say anything

about cleaning up their dirty deeds. I expressed my opinion that hyperbole was unecessary. The simple truth is more than enough to make the point and leaves one less vunerable to blowback. If my failure to engage in hysterics offends you -so be it.

In the meantime, I'll be sure to let my son know I'm not worthy to be called "Mother".

[flyarm]

138. I WAS NOT RESPONDING TO YOUR OPINION..ONLY KOS

I DO NOT AGREE WITH KOS

and i did not question you or your parenting..i would never presume to do that..and i did not...

sorry you thought that..

not my intention..i just 100% disagree with daily kos..

i have seen them play this game too many times...

on 9/11 and elections being stolen and now this..they attempt to muddy the water...

and i have just been reading legal cases in Fla ..to get the Fla state meaning of sexual predator and pedophilia..

most florida cases that reference Sexual predator use it with reference to violence or violent...

i am still reading several cases..where a discription is being used..i will report back when i finish reading the cases.

fly

[valerief]

102. *Sexual predator of a minor* would be more accurate. nt

[fujiyama]

152. You keep going on about "hyperbole"

Politics is ALWAYS about hyperbole. It's always about tearing the other side apart with what you've got. This is ammo and if we waste it on bickering about the definition of pedophilia, we will lose and deserve to. And that too, the Gang of Pedophiles deserves this. They covered this up. They are the party of torturers and pedophiles.

There are legal definitions and public definitions. Technically he may or may not be a pedophile, but the first thing that comes to mind when a fifty something year old man is hitting on 15 year olds is, "that is a fuckin pedophile" - and that's what a majority of people would think too.

[Bill McBlueState]

97. this is really frustrating

Pedophilia is a psychological disorder with a precise definition settled on by experts in psychology. That precise definition excludes older teenagers.

Those of us who pine for the days when words had meanings will resist calling Foley a pedophile.

But, the opposition doesn't let things like expert opinion or universally agreed-upon definitions get in their way. Sometimes we need to suck it up, play by their rules, and call a club a spade.

[valerief]

104. 15 years old isn't an older teenager. nt

[flyarm]

112. i really wonder if people calling this anything other than pedophilia

ever raised a son..

i have and i can say ..my son was not mature at age 15, in fact he was between 14-15 going through puberty..

so this is bullshit to say this was anything but pedophilia

no one will ever, ever, ever, convince me to make excuses for this pedophilia , or call it anything other than what it is and was!

fly

[CBGLuthier]

129. yes, I did

still raising actually. He is 16.

Also got two girls, one 19 and one almost 15.

And I know the proper definition of pedophilia.

And you are wrong.

But I can not care about this any more. I must accept that the consensus on DU is to use the wrong word.

It cheapens us and makes us look foolish, but go ahead.

And before I once again get accused of defending this asshole I will say again what he did was wrong and illegal. He should go to jail and so should those who hid the facts.

And that is good enough for me.

[fujiyama]

154. Cheapens us?

What is this bullshit? Makes us look foolish that a sick fuck repuke harassed and lusted after a 15 year old boy? Let the repukes defend this kind of behavior. I will guarantee that to 99% of the US public, the word "pedophile" comes to mind when they hear of such actions.

We've all been dragged in the mud a looooooong time ago. I don't think anyone even living in this country could be "cheapened" anymore. Dignity in politics is a thing of the past.

[CBGLuthier]

157. This bullshit

as you call it is an insistance upon accuracy.

But fuck it. i really don't care.

DU can wallow in its ignorance for all i care.

And if you think that the fact that the "other side" have been unfair excuses this nonsense then you live in a different world than I do.

[achtung_circus]

125. Those of us who pine for the days when words had meanings

Amen.

Plastic words generate plastic thoughts.

One of the beauties of English is the wide array of very similar words, each having its own nuance, and its own specificity.

[Nikia]

108. I would call this situation pedophilia

In some cases, a young adult pursuing or having sex with a 15-16 year old is not pedophilia because they see such a person as their peer. In states that do have strict statutory rape laws without provisions for small differences in age, teens should be counseled by their parents and perhaps it should be talked about as part of health class.
In most cases, an adult who is old enough to be the teens parents or older going after a teen is a pedophile, even if there is a more appropriate name for attraction to teens. This is definitely the case when they go after them because they are underage. The fact that he claims not be gay further supports this.

[Warren DeMontague]

109. Pffft. What the republicans WANT is for us to get bogged down with

the definition of "pedophile".

Let THEM do that. This is not an attack on gays. The problem with Foley wasn't the gender he went after, it was the age. Duh.

And this sticks a skewer right through the heart of the GOP's "family values" bullshit platitudes. I think this KOS poster either can't see the forest for the trees...

..or he's a plant, himself.

[Jade Fox]

113. Thank you!!!!

We are always so concerned about having it right, doing the right thing, and the Neoclowns use that against us. Or we use it against ourselves.

Foley is part of the group of people in this country who claim to hate what he is, no matter what you call it. Members of that group knew about him and did nothing. That is inexcusable hypocrisy. We need go no further.

[Warren DeMontague]

114. Not only is it hypocrisy, the GOP leadership may have broken the law

as I understand it. If they believed kids were being molested and crimes were being committed by this guy, didn't they have a legal responsibility to contact law enforcement?

[valerief]

118. That's WAY more important than their hypocrisy and moral

posturing. n/t

[flyarm]

124. not only may they have broken the law..they knew...

not only did the republicans cover this up..they knew Foley was Co-Chairman of the Missing and Exploited Childrens Caucus


ANOTHER REPUBLICAN FOX GUARDING THE HEN HOUSE..ONLY THE HEN HOUSE IS OUR CHILDREN!!

He is also Co-Chairman of the Missing and Exploited Childrens Caucus and Co-Chairman of the Travel and Tourism Caucus.



http://www.house.gov/foley/about/bio.htm

U.S. Representative from Florida's sixteenth congressional district.


Southern Florida's sixteenth congressional district includes residents of Charlotte, Glades, Hendry, Highlands, Martin, Okeechobee, Palm Beach and St. Lucie Counties.

SNIP:
At the beginning of the 106th Congress, Congressman Foley was appointed to the powerful House Ways and Means Committee He plays an important role in reforming the tax code, providing tax relief, expanding trade, seeking solutions to save social security, shoring up Medicare, reforming welfare, and addressing child safety issues.

In addition to his committee assignment, Congressman Foley serves as a member of the House leadership as a Deputy Majority Whip. He is also Co-Chairman of the Missing and Exploited Childrens Caucus and Co-Chairman of the Travel and Tourism Caucus.

Congressman Foley has been instrumental in passing important legislation. He secured $200 million in federal funding towards the preservation of the Florida's Everglades; the first ever financial contribution towards this cause. Furthermore, he supported legislation expediting the deportation of non-violent criminal aliens serving their sentences in federal prisons.

A testimony to his commitment to youth, he also passed a law allowing volunteer youth-serving organizations to have access to F.B.I. fingerprint background checks when denied that access by state law. To ensure student safety, he eliminated federal prohibitions on notifying a campus community when a student commits a violent crime.


see this editorial from Buzzflash today..

http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/contributors/441

Brent Budowsky -- Independent Investigation Needed: Did Congressional Republicans Cover Up Page Abuse Scandal?
Submitted by BuzzFlash on Sat, 09/30/2006 - 8:12pm. Guest Contribution
A BUZZFLASH GUEST CONTRIBUTION
by Brent Budowsky

snip:

Was there at least a serious investigation about whether any other pages were approached by Congressman Foley, eleven months ago?

Was there a serious investigation about whether new protections are needed for all pages, from potentially dangerous abuse, eleven months ago?

What is urgently needed is some form of investigation, special counsel, outside advisor or some appropriate way to investigate what actually happened, and immediately and without any delay report back to the public and the full Congress about measures that should have been taken, and will be taken now, to protect the pages.

We do not need another case where we find out long after the fact that our entire intelligence community believes the Iraq war creates more terrorists.

We do not need another case where a Senate Intelligence Committee report is covered up until after the election, about false statements made by high level officials, misleading the public and Congress about Iraq intelligence.

We do not need a sham investigation by a political committee in a one party Congress desperately trying to maintain control and therefore highly unlikely to seek and report the truth.

The safety and security of the Congressional pages is paramount to all other considerations.

The protection of the Congressional pages from abuse by Congressmen must be first, second, and third order of importance and the partisan and political convenience of politicians seeking to protect their power must not endanger even one of these good young men and women who serve as pages.




fly

[laundry_queen]

151. EXACTLY!! n/t

[sweetheart]

111. Just as police officers and officers of the court..

are held to a higher moral standard, the man behind federal children legislation being a sick pervert,
and allowed to remain in office for years is a heinous coverup by republican leaders. A ring of sexual abusers is
using the congress to groom and prey on young, impressionable children who come to the capital to learn
about how democracy works. Its really ironic to the extreme.

Republicans are fucking our children.
Its true in every metaphorical context, from the most abstract to the most concrete, financially, strategically,
militarily, economically, environmentally. If it's young and virgin, the republicans have fucked it, or plan to,
covertly, in the people's congress... what are these villains who shroud themselves in flags?

[bunny planet]

119. 'sexual predator' works for me.

just as effective a term IMHO and covers all the bases. It would be just as reprehensible if Foley had sexually stalked a 16 year old girl.
Nobody wants the Dems to 'go to war with butter knives' again, as someone suggested below.

[flyarm]

127. academics may call a snake a reptile..but for me..i will call a snake

a snake..no one misunderstands what a snake is!!


i will call Foley what the residents of Florida call someone who emails children at the age of 15 with sexual deviancy..a pedophile!

fly

[bunny planet]

130. Actually I live in Florida

and the flyer my local police put in my mailbox listing sexual predators in my area calls them just that sexual predators, or pedophiles, depending on what they've been accused of or have served time for. Its very specific in what it outlines for each particular offender. Sexual predator is a very strong term, just as strong as pedophile in my opinion. I'll call a snake a snake of course, if its a snake.

[Giant Robot]

136. Pedophile may work for the party faithful

But when talking to Republicans or others who are not Democrats, I think it would be more effective to say sexual predator. Saying pedophile is too easy to argue, and in arguing, the real point is lost. Sexual predator has been ingrained into our cultural consciousness, a la MSNBC, and has almost as instinctual of a negative reaction as pedophile. That will work for our purposes for now. We need to fight the fights we want; not what they want.

[tabasco]

137. The dictionary definition is different than the one Kos uses.

Kos adds some terms to the definition. According to the dictionary definition, Foley is a pedophile.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pedophile

[Swamp Rat]

140. Daily Kos who?

:eyes:

[flyarm]

143. USA PATRIOT ACT 2005 / PEDOPHILES

USA PATRIOT ACT 2005

actually the use of computers for pedophiles was used in a hearing concerning library records of computers in the
2005
REAUTHORIZATION OF THE USA PATRIOT ACT
under questioning by congress..to James B. Comey, Deputy Attorney General, U.S. Department of Justice

it was brought up by both congressmen/women and in testimony by James B. Comey, Deputy Attorney General, U.S. Department of Justice
that computers and the internet were being used by pedopiles on library computers..

so Pedopiles was being defined by congress and being defined by Deputy Attorney General, U.S. Department of Justice as someone using LIBRARY computers
to engage in pedophilic activity.




2005
REAUTHORIZATION OF THE USA PATRIOT ACT

HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

JUNE 8, 2005



C O N T E N T S

JUNE 8, 2005

The Honorable James B. Comey, Deputy Attorney General, U.S. Department of Justice
Oral Testimony


Mr. COMEY. Oh, gosh. I think an effect that nobody really wants. We don't want to create sanctuaries any place—no less libraries—for bad guys, especially terrorists. But we have a big problem with pedophiles going to libraries, fraudsters going to libraries. We've had spies in libraries. And we know terrorists go there, because it's Internet access and they think it makes it harder for us to follow them and to know what they're doing.


snip:

Chairman SENSENBRENNER. Without objection, so ordered. And the gentlewoman from Florida is recognized.

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you, Ranking Member Conyers.

General Comey, you made a reference earlier—and I also want to ask a question about section 215—to pedophilic activity, and that you would hate to see pedophilic activity be able to continue, or to continue unchecked, if a change was made in 215. But I mean, my familiarity with library activity is such that pedophilic activity has been going on before 9/11 and since 9/11, and there aren't many foreign terrorists who are engaging—using libraries to engage in pedophilic activity.

In fact, you have been able to utilize grand jury subpoenas and your authority that existed before 9/11 to go after that kind of activity. So in fact, Ted Koczynski was apprehended as a result of your ability to examine library records and subpoena them before 9/11.

So why did you need the provisions in 215 to go as far as they did, and what are you not able—what will you not be able to do if they are changed? Thank you.

Mr. COMEY. Thank you for the question. You're absolutely right. I made reference to pedophilia simply, I think, to try to buttress the broader point: that we don't want any particular place to be a sanctuary for criminal behavior. But you're absolutely right; 215 is about foreign intelligence crimes.

Page 61 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC

We could always use, as you said, the grand jury process to go after regular crooks, big-time crooks, pedophiles, if they were using libraries; and we have. Section 215, what it does is it gives that grand jury criminal power to intelligence investigators. But makes it harder for them, because unlike a criminal investigator who wants to use a grand jury subpoena, who could come to an Assistant U.S. Attorney and get the grand jury subpoena, by the PATRIOT Act Congress made the intelligence investigators who want the same records have to go do it in writing, and do it to a Federal judge, and get a written order. And that makes it harder for them. And that's a judgment of Congress, and that's fine. But I think a lot of times when people focus on 215, they don't realize how we do it in the criminal context, as you said.

[Sleepless In NY]

144. Isn't Kos doing himself more harm than good?

If he wants to stop the Repubican spin that all gays are pedophiles, he need only cite the case of another Republican, Phil Giordano, former mayor of Ct, presently serving 37 years for engaging in sex with a 9 year old and a 10 year old, both..GIRLS, not boys...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Giordano

Giordano was certainly not a homosexual and most definitely a heterosexual. Pedophiles can by either. Want to stop republicans dead in their tracks? Use one of their own to prove a point. But trying to deny or bringing up gay marriage or guilt by association, is only adding fuel to the republican fire...don't let them get away with that....someone has to start talking about Phil Giordano and real soon.

Like everyone here I've also been looking up the definition of what a pedophile is : "the term pedophile is also used colloquially to denote significantly older adults who are sexually attracted to adolescents below the local age of consent" I think that's the key here...age of consent, and it differs from state to state, with it being 18 years of age in Florida. By that definition & the age of the boy involved it certainly seems that would make a Foley a pedophile, by definition of the law.

[SoCalDem]

147. Pages need PARENTAL CONSENT to become pages..

A high school senior still needs a signed parental consent form to go on a field trip..There may be a gray area where consensual sex is concerned, but it's never "in doubt" when the "other" partner is clearly an adult...and oone who is somehow "in charge" of the kid..

There's a world of difference when a 16 year old takes up with a neighborhood 23 yr old...and when a 16 yr old is involved with a 23 yr old teacher...or boss..or mentor..

Legal? Illegal?...won't even matter if no one investigates..

What should have happened?

The parents should have called the DC police and had him picked up for questioning..and had his computer (s) confiscated..

[flyarm]

156. you are 100% correct..i would have camped out at the police station!

until he was brought in..booked and arrested ...

and then charged ..and prosecuted..

fly

[Vinca]

148. Excuse me, but we don't know with any certainty that Foley is not

a pedophile. It wouldn't surprise me a whole heck of alot to find kiddy porn in his computer. Maybe 16 year old boys are the only ones he has easy access to.

[flyarm]

155. we won't know congress gave Foley 11 mos

to scrub his computers!!

or they did it for him..perhaps???????????

hmmm..

[deadparrot]

150. The Random House Dictionary definition:

pe‧do‧phile  /ˈpidəˌfaɪl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun Psychiatry.
an adult who is sexually attracted to young children.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=pedophile

Sorry, but in my book, he's definitely a pedophile.

[CBGLuthier]

158. Are yo fucking serious

If a 16 year oild is a young child then what is an old child to you?

God damn there are really some stupid fucking people here.

Please admins, ban me now so I do not have to associate with such out and out stupidity any more.

I am 100% serious. This place makes me fucking sick.

[dollydew]

162. Age is not just a number

Our society as a whole has decided that a legal adult is 18 years of age. Now those who cite age of consent are being coy. The age of consent (I looked it up) in Florida is 16 for marriage. Any younger and parental consent is required. Unless Foley intended to marry this young man he is at least guilty of sexual harassment (which IS against the law). Of course, if older men coming on to young men who are not emotionally mature doesn't bother you, then don't complain. Apparently this young man was not comfortable with this situation. According to news reports he DID protest. Also, according to news reports, five other pages have come forward. I don't care which party this sick fool comes from. If this doesn't bother you than you're no better than any other predator. If you remember being 16 you're neither mature enough nor experienced enough to say no to an older more powerful figure. Of course this is a society that often blames its victims and says torture is OK.

[CBGLuthier]

165. numbers have nothing to do with it

age of consent has nothing to do with it.

Pedophilia is an attraction towards people who have not entered puberty. As in no pubic hair, no breasts, no nothing that indicates sexual maturity.

But people here want to define this word to fit their pathetic bullshit purposes.

These are the same peope who blasted ABC to hell and back for innacuracies.

This is the saddest fucking day in DU history and I can not stand it any more.

Either get a brain or an education or leave me the hell along as I can not stand you people and your stupidity any more.

[dollydew]

166. Get over yourself

Get over yourself. Age doesn't mater. What is it about that that you don't get? A parent is a parent. We parents love our children. This is why america will not succeed. You're more worried about textbook definitions than you are about the health and welfare of someone's child. Where is your heart? You're the sick one here. Your argument isn't based on the pain caused by Foley. It's based on whether or not someone has the exact definition of pedophilia down pat. Grow a soul.

[CBGLuthier]

167. I am a god damned parent

you simple minded fuck

and I still have a fucking brain to think with unlike you and I know the truth but fuck you and fuck the entire god damn community as I can not stand your fucking willful minded stupidity any more.

Farewell and burn in hell asswipes.

[dollydew]

169. Ah, there's the rub

I'll go toe to toe with you. What parent would approve of (or excuse) this behavior? Your children have my sympathy. You wanna rock and roll? P.S. My husband is right here. You have something to say to him, asshole? Birds of a feather flock together.

[flyarm]

171. self delete...but please go read some legal cases.. n/t..

[flyarm]

170. this boy /child was 15 when this occured..he is 16 now..

15 is a child!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fly

[MissMarple]

159. It depends on what your definition of "is" is.

He was also an adult in a position of trust. IMHO

[Little Star]

161. Page School = High School

What would the law charge a teacher or principle with?

[stepnw1f]

163. Bull... He's a Pedophile

On average.... those who get caught in the act have already had on average , over 40 victims. I know somebody in DSS here in MA. This guy is a serial pedophile... bank on it!

[Imagevision]

168. In any event, let's expose those who covered-up for Folie