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dusmcj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 02:39 PM
Original message
Feingold's right: update law to match NSA vacuuming tech
Edited on Tue Jan-24-06 02:59 PM by dusmcj
(first: a disclaimer. I have no access to classified or privileged information about either the IT industry, with which I am somewhat familiar, or the intelligence community, with which I am not. This directly implies two things: 1. my inferences and suggestions are no better, and no worse, than those of any other average lay reader, and less valid than those of valid objective domain experts in those fields, i.e. don't assume I know what I'm talking about more or less than you do, and 2. anyone so inclined should shy away from thinking or claiming that I'm revealing super-secret technology here and aiding our enemies or any other such pseudopatriotic bullshit. Since most current fundamental IT tech has been developed by graduate students from India, China, Israel, Russia and a host of other foreign countries for the last 20 years, the cat's out of the bag anyway, and what I share here is easily accessible in the public domain. You can damn well be sure that I will not aid this country's enemies; that's one reason I don't support the current administration's policies. So sniffers, you have a nice day.)

following the breaking stories about the NSA warrantless domestic surveillance and discussion of it here, there are some things which need noting. We owe another debt of thanks to Senator Feingold for doing it legislatively, when he demanded that the executive branch disclose the nature of the data mining technology the NSA was using on the domestic phone call flow.

Herewith my humble contributions. Skip to "WHAT THIS MEANS" below if you don't want the tech drivel (try it, it's good for your brain).

voice recognition does not need to be trained. That was the state of the art 20 years ago, voice reco systems had to be trained to the unique sound patterns of an individual speaker. No longer the case. In case you have doubts, you can encounter general voice reco systems in automated telephone response systems for credit card helplines, movie theater chains, and the like. They average out the uniquenesses in people's speech patterns so that whether you pronounce "Syriana" as 'se rih ahh nahh' from Windsor castle or 'see ree ann uhh' from Crawford, the system will understand 'syriana'.

this means: that the voice signal stream from a telephone call can be processed as a matter of course by voice recognition systems and turned from the same kind of (digitized) audio signal that ultimately drives the speaker in your telephone, into text data, so that your phone call with whoever could be turned into essentially the equivalent of a word processing document or a page on this website. At which point it is easily searchable for words of interest. That's what computers are for. I don't know if the state of the art in voice recognition is such that the audio stream itself can be searched for sounds of interest or whether the conversion to text has to happen first, but that's irrelevant. The core point is that computers can take a phone call between any two random people and turn it into a text stream which you can read on your screen. (I also don't know the state of the art regarding accents and foreign languages, but at worst they would require more patterns to match against to get the words. Ultimately all sounds in all languages represent a single giant search space, and are matched to all words in all languages represented in some script, assume latin. The rest is sugar.)

Also, data volumes: there are 300 million Americans, and I don't know how many phones - the CIA factbook says that in 2003 there were 181 million phone lines in use, the real number is somewhere between the two and doesn't matter - just multiply or divide by a small number to get the true total regardless of what you pick. A quick google reveals that 1 second of speech sound results in between 500 and 1300 bytes of data. Let's call it 1KB. I'll try to make this readable by all, so tech-aware please bear with (and gently correct).

So each second of one telephone call produces 1KB of speech data. OK, now assume that 100 million of those 180 million US phone lines are in use simultaneously at any one time. That would mean that the US phone system produces 100GB (gigabytes, "billion" bytes) of data every second. That's the size of a hard disk in an average PC nowadays.

OK, now assume that we want to keep the output of the US phone system for 24 hours... one day's worth of all telephone calls made in the US. To run speech recognition against it, to filter it for interesting words, and to save the interesting calls to some other system so that a human can listen to them. That's 86,400 seconds of data. 100GB of data a second from the US phone system means that a day's worth of data is 8,640 Petabytes (a million-billion bytes) of data.

That's 100,000 PC hard drives. To keep all the phone calls made in the entire US for one day. Now, that's a lot of hard drives, but more back-of-the-envelope calculation says that at $100 a pop, that would cost $10 million. A B2 is $2 billion, and an F22 is $200 million. $10 million is a drop in the bucket.

I don't claim that the numbers I'm assuming are correct. I will claim that they're in the ballpark, and not orders of magnitude off. (And please, if you know in the way of objective fact (rather than assumptions no better than mine) that they are, please correct them.)

WHAT THIS MEANS:

It is within the realm of current commercial technology to capture ALL the phone calls made in the ENTIRE U.S. in one day, and save them for searching and processing. A petabyte of data is a shitload of data to search, to put it succinctly, but if you break the task up and do it in a decentralized fashion, it's completely within the realm of possibility.

What this means is that technology has delivered a fundamental change to the surveillance landscape. No longer is listening to someone's phone a matter of attaching two leads with an earpiece to the switchboard in the basement. It's also not a matter of having the name of a person, having suspicions about that person, and going to a judge and saying that you want a warrant to listen to their phone calls. Current technology suggests that the right and the easy and the inclusive (bwahahaha) way to do it is according to the form the technology provides: data is anonymous, tagged by phone number. Listen to phone numbers you know you care about, and scan for data of interest. Better yet, listen to as many phone numbers as you can, and listen for repeating patterns of conversation including tag words of interest. Vacuum the whole thing up, and search for who's talking about Al Qaeda (as opposed to who Al Qaeda's talking to). Of course the old way is still possible, where a gumshoe develops a suspicion about someone and tells telco to record their calls. The new tech makes that easier too. But it also facilitates treasure hunts, where you know _what_ you're looking for, as opposed to _who_ you're looking at, which you now figure out when you find _what_ you're looking for.

Sen Feingold raises the suspicion that he understands this, that current technology makes it feasible to identify suspects after surveillance and not before, and that the law must change to take this into account, when he demands that the executive specifically describe its use of data mining (the name for treasure hunting). The old days where a man was identified by his name and all flowed from it have gotten company in the form of a new world where a man's leavings are what are interesting, and who he is is just an afterthought which facilitates prosecution or control.

In this new world, our inherent rights are no different than before: we have the right to have our private lives undisturbed by our fellows sanctioned by government unless those parties have probable cause to suspect us of wrongdoing. The specifics of the law must be updated to continue safeguarding that right in the face of our new practical reality.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'll consider this.
Feingold is usually right on these issues.
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liveoaktx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. Treasure Hunting/Fishing Expedition - is the point of this
that you are saying that the DEFINITION of what is happening needs to be clearly expressed so that the average citizen can understand that this is not wiretapping in the traditional sense? If so, I agree with you, Bamford and Martin said the same basic things in the Domestic Surveillance hearing the other day that the public needs to understand the sweeping nature of what is happening and not see a mental picture of man climbing a telephone pole to put taps on a wire.

I've wondered, since this vast data mining operation is in place and has been for years, and apparently, if I hear Hayden right, outside of the law except as he sees it, what steps have to be taken to stop or limit or put some kind of test of probable cause on the sweep?
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liveoaktx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. Your comments about "leavings" stick ....
In a probable cause world, after a crime is committed, the leavings are examined with a view to being able to tie them to a particular individual, at which point a warrant is issued. Or, if one has reason to suspect a certain individual, and the "leavings" point that direction, it's also probable cause that could target an individual with a warrant.

In the data-mining situation, every leaving is examined, ala "Minority Report", before a crime is committed, without any probable cause and on innocent people as well as potentially guilty, in order to see IF a crime is in the works. This makes every single person swept up, albeit semi-anonymously via a telecommunications/database "treasure hunt" guilty before being proven innocent. While this may be true in the police world, where every person has to be assumed guilty before proven innocent in a court of law, ought it be the standard for basic communications, where those who engage it assume a degree of privacy and assumption of innocence.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. To what extent has framing allowed this?
Our modern society has done a great job of teaching average Joe and/or Jane that they're guilty at *every possible turn,* until they prove otherwise. What has gone so seriously wrong with our laws in general that a presumption of innocence only applies in a courtroom when lawyers are intimately involved?
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liveoaktx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I actually don't disagree with the notion that police have to have
the opposite view of crimes, that of believing someone to be guilty before proven innocent. Not that a cop that fixates on an individual while avoiding other leads isn't wrong and may come to the wrong conclusion, but the bulldog detective that examines every detail in order to find out the truth might not check into the evidence as strongly if he or she already thought the person was innocent. This notion, at least when I went to school, is a basic premise of the criminal justice system.

But we don't live in a police state; (at least theoretically)-the police can have that view but only as a segment of the entire society with the court notion of "innocent until proven guilty" as the final arbiter. IF society is attempting to thrust the notion that everyone is guilty "at every possible turn", then it's foisting a police state on our country.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I'm not specifically referring to the police. For "one" example:
Edited on Tue Jan-24-06 05:05 PM by SimpleTrend
I write a check at a store: it is assumed I'm not who I say I am, until I prove otherwise. I use my debit card and the merchant doesn't have a pin machine so they process it through VISA/Mastercard, "Have any ID?" If I decide to carry around cash to avoid this, often the merchant takes special precautions, such as, "no bills larger than $20", or presumes I'm paying with counterfeit bills, and strikes the paper with a special pen, essentially telling me that I'm a liar and a thief passing around fake currency (which I might be, I don't test every bill I get, maybe I should).
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liveoaktx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I see what you mean. It's more the notion that you might be a criminal
first, and therefore must be checked, even in ordinary circumstances, and even in situations involving cash.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Yes, our society has indoctrinated (framed) us to believe
that these daily accusations against us are routine and normal, and the law doesn't protect us against these "framings", or "culture manipulations" to use another creative phrase, unless we end up in court. There, we may very well be assumed innocent until proven guilty. How this relates to those who've been imprisoned without court oversight seems obvious. It would also seem to apply to complete surveillance, such as NSA total conversation capture (if that's how it works) and data mining, as another expression of essentially the same phenomenon, guilty until proven innocent.
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liveoaktx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. The book "State of War" describes it as data-mining
p 48

"NSA's technical prowess, coupled with its long standing relationships with the nation's major telecommunications companies, has made it easy for the agency to eavesdrop on large number os pfople in the United States without their knowledge... US intelligence officials secretly arranged with top officials of major telecommunications companies to gain access to large telecommunications switches carrying the bulk of America's phone calls. ... With its direct access to the UN telecommunications system, there seems to be no physical or logistical obstacle to prevent the NSA from eavesdropping on anyone in the United States that it chooses.
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DELUSIONAL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
7. Mike Malloy had a caller who said essentially the same thing
The technology is in place to analysis ALL conversation -- using voice recognition (as you outlined above).

After listening to the caller who sounded very credible -- I now believe that bushie is spending a whole lot of $$$$$$$$$$$$$ on using the system that is in place to collect every bit of information.

From there it is very easy to search the databases for blackmail nuggets. Or whatever purpose these sleaze monster can think up.

One of the monsters in the bushie white house merely had to suggest the idea that everyone could be spied on and bushie said, "make it so" -- he didn't have to have any comprehension of the technology.



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liveoaktx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Especially when there is no oversight of the program aside from the NSA
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dusmcj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
12. what to do about it
liveoaktx postes the question, what do we do about this, to safeguard our rights and update to law to do so when data mining of the US call volume has (may have) replaced a pair of wires owned by the telephone company from your phone to their switchboard.

It almost seems dangerous to speak too soon, for my part because in addition to not being a domain expert on data mining or the intelligence community, I'm also not one on civil rights and constitutional law. And there really needs to be some cogent thought, by people with the qualifications to give them enough context to think eloquently about it, regarding how the old right of an individual identifiable by name and address to be safe from having his papers rifled unless a judge thought it was needed, translates to a time when he exists as the owner of several phone numbers, each of which drop a little stream into the data river every day, where the NSA's sluice gates filter all the water for mines, pollutants and predators. (I'll stop with the poetry now.) We saw what happened when Congress tried to regulate content on the internet: it was amateur hour, and disaster in the form of Jimmy Exon's ban on the Carlin words if they could reach the delicate ears or eyes of those underage was averted only by some first rate activists, employing some first rate lawyers of national stature (and being no slouches on the subject of civil rights law themselves). We have a similar challenge here: there is complex new technology present which changes the language we use to talk about a subject, in this case surveillance, and we need some first-class reasoners who also have the background to allow them to think accurately about the subject to consider the implications of something that really does deserve the name paradigm shift. Further, at least some of them need to be people for whom the subject is close to heart; they need to treat it not as an academic abstraction in the UChicago mode, but as a life matter which affects us all with immediacy. It's about the future of our nation and our culture, and those who take it upon themselves to contemplate solutions need to act like they understand that.

I'll propose a pass at an ideal solution: in an ideal democracy, the people as one of the estates of the nation understand that they are the first estate, that the nation, and its government, and its society, are manifestations of their will, and their communal desire to live in a particular way. Those of their number who hold government office understand that they have chosen to serve their fellows, and will be held to a high standard of ethical behavior, and reticence in using power their fellows have sanctioned them to hold. They will willingly live up to this standard, and their fellows in the mass public in turn assume that it is a given that government acts in the interests of the People, since it is Of, By, and For them.

Take this ideal democracy (which really just requires a culture which understands the values of the Enlightenment which deleted absolute monarchies from Europe, and which values civic life and communal application of another valued commodity, intellect shaped by good education, to the problems of the community) and place it in a context in which it is threatened by infiltration by groups made up of foreigners and disaffected citizens who intend to do it tangible harm, by destroying property, killing people, and negating the quality of life of peaceful civil society. Among other difficulties, the ideal democracy is confronted with the apparent contradiction: use technical means to acquire information about activities of the subversives from within the country's domestic space. But do not treat the innocent citizens of the nation as though they were criminals, and do not allow data acquired about them inadvertently to be misused.

The citizens of the ideal democracy will expect the latter constraints as a given; the Enlightenment recognition of basic civil rights, including to privacy, as inherent, which was codified into law, has become a basic cultural value, and the country would in fact grind to a halt if a government came to power which attempted to undo this recognition and make rights a granted privilege or some such. The members of government of ideal democracy understand this, and since they are citizens of the nation too and share its cultural values with their fellow citizens, they would not undertake to do anything which would hazard those bedrock individual rights. Being effective thinkers, they note however that they need to codify any solution they come up with, because modern societies codify the abstractions on which they base their structural members, and because even though the cultural assumption may be that certain fundamentals are implicit, smart societies don't live according to unwritten rules, and this is a smart society.

Given all this, the ideal democracy now concerns itself with the practical specifics of the domestic surveillance problem. Communcations are ubiquitous, and hard to quickly associate with an individual. The data stream associated with a telephone conversation may be moving among cell towers and crossing provider (company) boundaries, it may be packetized and pushed onto the internet, etc. Cell phones can be bought in disposable form for $10 with no reliably enforced requirement for buyer identification, i.e. no reliable way to link conversation endpoint to individual identity. Data networks allow massive data movements with great difficulty again in binding conversation content to particular individuals. Where once people had mail and telephones, and telephones were a box hanging on the kitchen wall with two uninterrupted wires running to the local switching office and a human operator who made connections on request, i.e. identity was key, the problem now is oceanic quantities of communications content, with ubiquitous and heterogenous access points, with only spotty opportunities to link it to people originating it. Yet the content is still out there, the voice streams containing "red frog is a go" and "wow man, I went to the mosque last night and the imam was really pissed off, we all signed up to go to Pakistan this summer" are lying there for the taking.

I.e. where once the human was the most easily accessible object in the criminal complex of actor, means, place, etc., now the communications among the participants in a criminal enterprise are. The evidence is there, and the legwork is in binding it to the people it refers to, rather than the people being easy to find and the legwork being finding evidence of their malfeasance.

The ideal democracy notes all this and reflects that in order to effectively control the subversives, it really needs to be able to act on that ocean of evidence - find the material that raises flags, then find out who produced it. It knows that the technology exists to gather up all communications with one or more endpoints in its physical borders, and filter it for interesting content. And it is brought full circle back to the question of safeguarding of inherent civil rights - the right to privacy, and the right as it was so eloquently put once (can't remember by whom) to be left alone. The contradiction is between vacuuming up the ocean of communications content for the sake of the nation's safety, and thereby implicitly compromising the privacy of its citizens. Further, the solution to the contradiction needs to be codified and be substantial enough to withstand judicial and legislative review, including tests of constitutionality.

Ideal democracy now ventures into a complex realm. It chooses to reason that the tangible effect of a violation of privacy is that information which a person considers confidential is used to coerce or harm them - to shame them publicly or among their acquaintances or in their interactions with government, to extort obedience or political adherence from them, to aid their economic competitors, etc. I.e. that private information is disclosed inappropriately. Ideal democracy notes that if its government chooses to avail itself of the information in the communications ocean, it must create clearly substantial, publicly visible safeguards which will accompany the vacuuming program which will be seen to ensure that government will exercise its exclusive sanction to access citizens' private data anonymously, and in a sealed space. The data will only be made available to agencies tasked with missions which justify its consumption. So that for example, a strip club owner will not be investigated for tax fraud under the auspices of the national security surveillance program, nor a peaceful dissident group for their pronouncements, both of which happened under the PATSY Act. Structures for oversight and continual review of data acquisition and use will be made public and will be made substantial enough to withstand both public and experiential scrutiny. Control of data movement is ensured by both technical (you can't move it off this server) and procedural (you have to sign for that volume) safeguards. If data is classified, provision will be made to generate unclassified summary data from it which will be publicized. Priority given to informing the public will be equal to that given to protecting security. Lastly, penalties for misuse of citizens' private data will be clear and harsh. Immediate dismissal from government employment, criminal prosecution and liability to civil suit for both the active parties, their supervisors, the executives initiating any organized programmatic misuse, along with internal and external auditing of the offending department and agency will all deter against misuse of acquired data to the maximum possible extent. The legislative branch of ideal democracy's government is given the oversight role over the program and is tasked with establishing the classified/unclassified partition to be able to succeed in its mission of delivering accountability results into the unclassified public realm.

The public of ideal democracy is not enthused about sanctioning its government to acquire their private information, but it knows that it controls the government, that its representatives to the organs of government will act according to the public's expressed interests, and that in short it has the power to hold government accountable for appropriate use of the sanction and trust it has given government. The data vacuuming operation proceeds, and while there are a few unfortunate incidents in which government employees abuse their access to classified data, they are quickly dealt with, the victims are compensated, and the events are few and far between. Aside from regular oversight reports to its representatives in government, the public is largely unaware that its personal communications are filtered for content. People have no concern that government will occupy itself with their sexual habits, political affiliations, choice of underwear or favorite toothpaste. Because it doesn't. Because it wouldn't, because government represents the best of the nation's culture, and because those in government understand that they are answerable to the people, and that the legal system makes that responsibility sharply tangible. There is an understanding that in a civil society, the people who partake of it are responsible for obeying rational laws made by their rational fellows, and that the government which safeguards its interests exists only to serve its interests.

Like I said, an ideal democracy. Not so far fetched on the other hand. What I'm basically describing are data protection laws in a rational society - rational societies meet new conditions by application of intellect rather than force, which is subservient to intellect. It would be nice if we here in the US were up to that challenge.
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liveoaktx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Your comments raise the question of whether or not vacuuming up data
is required to be a given, despite this being a technological age. It has been, only because citizens do not fully realize the extent to which NSA regularly acquires all information, and only recently has awakened a naive public.

IF we argue that we must have the ability for the NSA to monitor all communications and continue to do the data-mining that they already are, the problem really is, who, as the movie "Enemy of the State" put it, is going to monitor the monitors? I don't trust government. Bush has already indicated that for this program to become open for public inspection would, in his opinion, alert the terrorists and it isn't likely that a Republican congress would allow this. Nor should it be, on the other hand, that every citizen could examine every record. But he or she should be able to examine and see immediately what the government is collecting and saving on him or her and require that the records be expunged. It isn't enough to do a FOIA and see that one is on file. WHY should the government have citizens on file if there is not crime committed? I doubt this will happen because, on a different scale, citizens cannot even get access to TSA information to get themselves off no-fly lists or cannot take their children off JAMSR military databases, who have collected information without permission from parents for children under 18.

Another side of this is, why should any agency or private entity be able to collect ANY information without our permission for the point of collection, detection and analyzation. Just because we live with technological tools doesn't mean we have to take advantage of them outside or proper probable cause procedures.
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dusmcj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-26-06 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. not a given, just likely, cause it's easy
I suspect the principle of following the line of least resistance plays here. Consider: the modern telecommunications infrastructure is becoming easier and easier to bulk-harvest. All data is digitized up to the wires that go to your home. Digital data is what computers do best: sort, store, break up, reassemble, translate, _search_, bla bla bla. It's use is also becoming ubiquitous - the day of it being a big deal to have a phone in the house, with an operator at the other end plugging you into your call is long long gone - if they feel safe, terrorists will use all the latest gadgetry, because it makes achieving their goals easier.

We have a tangible threat present, and even if we don't misuse it to justify Romper Room autocracy the way the Bush administration tries to, I believe it is an objective truth that the security threat is real and that we need to address it. At that point, we see the tempting truth which I propose, that the information is most easily available within the telecomms colossus - it's way easier to find Ahmed Smith, American Muslim convert who is participating in jihad training every weekend with his mosque buds in the local national forest, by tuning in to his emails than by happening to notice a bunch of skinny dumb-looking white guys with weedy beards toting long bundles into the woods from a beat-up Maxima.

So that because of ease of access from a technical point of view to a potential treasure horde of information, the temptation will be there to reach for that easy solution. At that point we ask, "ok, why not". Well, because it's none of government's business to know that I like having sex while hanging upside down and am looking for like-minded individuals for a good time. Or that I question the aptness of Cheney's first name in online fora. And yet as we know, the exigency argument has already repeatedly trumped the civil rights argument, repeatedly - PATSY 1, NSA illegal domestic surveillance, etc. Such that estimating the likelihood of success it seems like we ought to conclude that there will be a stiff fight which we will lose, based on the need to preserve security (real to some extent at least). Which led me to the question, why do I actually care if someone reads my posting to alterboink.net, assuming that I am not proposing illegal activity ? Well, because while I am comfortable with my life choices, I know that they may be controversial to others of differing sociopolitical viewpoints, and I really can't be bothered having to waste time dealing with their opinions, or their actions, entering my life space in some kind. I am not obligated to explain myself to or contend with anyone regarding my legal activities, and the concern is that access to my private communications might result in information about my personal business becoming known to those within my public sphere, where they would not be able to otherwise acquire that knowledge. Let your information run free at that point - coworkers, employers, family members, local law enforcement, church members, etc. None of which really have anything to say about which way my body points during orgasm, but some of whom might be disturbed by the information were they to acquire it. And since courtesy of Poppy we live in a Connected society where too many people behave like animals according to the dictum "shit happens" (i.e. if I don't like what you do I'll make trouble for you) it is by no means paranoid to assume that such illegitimate information transmissal might take place were the initial access to be possible.

So we try to resolve the impasse between the likely inevitability and potentially even desireability in some cases of large scale communications filtering, and the historical knowledge of government's past misuse of surveillance power, and the general low quality of our fellow man. Thus I arrive at the notion of data protection law, which is extensive in more modern nations than ours, and basically prescribes what I suggest, namely strict guidelines for handling, compartmentalization and retention of private information once acquired, and clear and severe penalties for their violation.

I am not a lawyer, although I've busied myself with civil liberties issues for a number of years and live in the knowledge that the personal is indeed political, maybe more so now than in 1968. I am somewhat familiar with the IT industry, to the point where I know what computers are capable of these days in terms of complexity of processing and also volume. Additionally, I have some exposure to the culture of the more advanced nations of the world, primarily those in western Europe, and how they have resolved their concerns about protection of civil liberties in the face of modern times. Some no better than we have, but some distinctly more successfully. I claim on the one hand that my proposed scenario exists in the context of an ideal democracy, which we don't have, specifically, one where all the estates are aware of their roles in supporting such a state and culture, and fulfill them with dedication and rectitude. I do believe however that we can approach such a state incrementally, and that we have not been putting nearly enough effort into doing so of late. On the other hand, I also propose that my scenario may be the best outcome we can hope for. We need to damp the simultaneous fear and greed that the new tools evoke in those empowered to use them, while understanding that banning the tool, making it taboo, only drives its use underground. There must be a social compact about what behavior is acceptable in this day and age, with full cognizance of that context, rather than attempts to deny aspects of it, since those always fail.

In solidary and concern...
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-26-06 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
15. Absolute BS... data-mining is a fundamental violation of common-law rights
Your complaining that we should legalize it in order to regulate it, as if it were mere undesirable activity in the privacy of government offices, is the type of mentality that is enabling the creation of a fascist state.

I have nothing to fear from your paranoid imagination of American Al Qaeda converts training in the woods. I don't believe in empowering terrorists by letting them think they can get me to relinquish my rights in order to get a little bit of safety while I am still at risk from being gunned down by Ahmed (or his white-bread mother) in the family SUV for "jaywalking" like 40,000 other Americans every year, an "acceptable loss of life", or gunned down on the streets of Baghdad, another "acceptable loss of life" in defense of the "freedom" you would take further away from me (since I already lack freedom of movement -- cf. jaywalking -- and freedom from fear -- cf. perpetual warfare and perpetual criminalization of the underclass, while you are only too secure in your own faith that mutual exhibitionism and middle-class solidarity will protect you from having to worry about blackmail or going to prison for something you said on a website.
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dusmcj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-26-06 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. purpose served: I got a countering response
Edited on Thu Jan-26-06 05:52 PM by dusmcj
OK, groovy, I got a vigorous rejection. I'll hold that it's a fascist state dependent on what we do with the power we give ourselves, and that Doober is playing precisely that game, giving himself power, and then daring us to say that he can't do what he wants with it. You suggest that the power not be given in the first place. Which matches to some extent what the Bill of Rights is all about. Although it delineates the prohibitions against incroachment and also characterizes the acceptable exceptions, rather than being a blanket denial.

I gather that you conclude that a modern middle-class socialist-leaning state is always on a slippery slope to statist fascism no matter how good its intentions. I'm not ready to reach that conclusion yet, but I also can't tell you you're wrong. For my part, I certainly will work to prop up that culture that gives me that sense of entitlement and faith that mutual exhibitionism and middle-class solidarity will in fact protect me from busybodies and extremists who would seek to use information about my personal life to coerce me. Since were I to fail to do that I would be enabling the extremists from all parts of the spectrum who are hard to tell apart in their common desire to successfully vandalize all of civilization, the good parts as well as the bad.

Of course, none of this changes the underlying issue which Senator Feingold pointed out where it matters, and I reiterate here: the change in technology has changed the language with which we discuss surveillance, and the law has not yet caught up with that change. In that it doesn't consider new methodologies if only to prohibit them. Outlaw it outright, but whatever you do, the law needs updating.
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