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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 03:13 PM
Original message
Isn't there any OTHER company that provides the same services
that Halliburton does?
Their relationship with our government is incestuous.
If they are able to secure every no-bid contract, then my guess is the only way they secure the bid contracts is by being told what the bids are.
There is NO other possibility.
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bechtel and Fluor (to a degree) come to mind. They also got no-bids.
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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. and they are just as bad
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Nice.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0419-04.htm
>>>>snip
Bechtel has made $1.3m in political donations over the past four years, 60 per cent of it to Republicans, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, a Washington campaign watchdog. Its board of directors includes George Shultz, who was secretary of state during the Reagan administration. Its chairman and chief executive, Riley Bechtel, was recently appointed to George Bush's export council.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/091405Q.shtml
>>>>snip
Already Halliburton is on hand with a no-bid contract for reconstruction. Fluor, Bechtel, the Shaw Group - Republican-linked firms - are lining up for contracts. Lobbyists like Joe Allbaugh, close friend of George Bush, and James Lee Witt, close friend of Bill Clinton - both former heads of the Federal Emergency Management Agency - are advising their corporate clients to get teams on the scene. Normal rules of contracting and competition are being waived in the emergency. Big bucks are on the table. It is a time to be wired politically.


Geez, whatever happened to conflict of interest?
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Bechtel is Halliburton nt
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. They may work alike, but Bechtel is PRIVATELY OWNED.
Think about that crap.

I live very close to one of the Bechtels.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. Once upon a time,
the military did all this stuff.

Why, they even prepared their own food. Watch old episodes of "M*A*S*H*" if you don't believe me.

Who the fuck ever heard of a war with Hardee's and Mcdonald's outside the mess tent (if they still have mess tents)?
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shoelace414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. that is always my question
why can't the military supply gasoline and food to the troops, that's what it's supposed to be able to do. the Military should be able to be self-sufficent.
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Because privatization is "more cost-efficient."
Which is a load of crap.

I also remember stories in the first year of the invasion that mail, food and water wasn't being supplied to the troops because a lot of contractors thought things were too dangerous.

Gee, war-profiteering in a warzone...dangerous?...Who knew?
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Eyeopeners
I recently - after a twenty-year lapse - subscribed to Rolling Stone again. I did this because I kept reading excerpts from political articles that were published there.

I'm telling you - it's maybe the best and most accurate political writing available at the newsstand today.

I'm two issues behind on my reading, and there's an article about profiteering, no-bid contracts, cronyism, and the like - and it's all about FEMA and the DHS.

If you can, subscribe. It's just a brilliant beacon of truth in this winter of our despair and hope.
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Angry Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Excellenmt point!
Wow! That one totally slipped by me. How surreptitiously these corporations weave their net. We're so screwed.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. It costs a FORTUNE for the military to do it themselves
The move towards reducing the tooth (those who fight) to tail (those who do all the nice-to-have crap, but don't do any fighting) has been going on for decades. Everything that doesn't put ordnance on target, and can be done by less fit, often older, non-warfighting types is outsourced. The government just couldn't sustain the infrastructure, but most importantly, they couldn't afford the PERSONNEL COSTS. Those downstream expenditures for non-warfighters were killing the budget.

You have a guy who spends his career handing out basketballs and running the golf range, and he gets the same retirement as that poor bastard who does hard deployments. It was totally unsustainable.

The advantage to these contracts is that there are no huge line item costs like family support and housing, retirement or medical to consider when dealing with the workers (many of whom are hired from third world hellholes at slave wages). Go to Gitmo, for example, and meet Jamaicans working for far less than US minimum wages in the mess hall! Go to Eye-Rack, and see Koreans and Filipinos making yer sandwiches, running the laundry and sweeping up! For the cost of one soldier (and not counting the thousands of dollars spent on that soldier's initial entry training and outfitting) you can get ten or twenty of these cheap laborers--and there's the incentive. When you don't need them any more, there's no issue--ya toss 'em like Kleenex. And even better, from a military perspective, there isn't even any personnel management to deal with--the guy who handles that is hired as well.

The contracts themselves, from a big picture perspective, are not so much the problem as is the complete and total, and dammit, seemingly DELIBERATE lack of friken oversight. Along with, of course, the total lack of COMPETITION in the bid process.

These bums in gubmint hire the doggone fox to watch the henhouse, and then wonder why they can't have an egg for breakfast!
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. It costs THREE FORTUNES to 'privatize' what the military did.
Edited on Tue Jan-24-06 06:24 PM by TahitiNut
From motor pools to mercenaries, the DOD is "outsourcing" (to privateers) and spending far more while achieving far less. I spent my time on KP and doing maintenance ... at $95/month. There was nothing to stop me from being worked 10-12 hours (or more) each day and 6-7 days per week. Soldiers don't get overtime pay and NOBODY takes a profit slice from what they cost to what they get paid. When that "contractor" gets paid $125K/year, you can bet the costs are more like $200K/year. On top of that, the contracting company (the privateers) has a vested interest in shorting on the service or product - since 'overcapacity' and 'overproduction' are the 'big evil' of business.

That's the most important difference - overcapacity. For governments and the military, overcapacity is a "good thing" - primarily because they're supposed to deal with the unforeseen and emergency event. There ain't nobody sitting back and offering insurance to them - no backstopping. For business, however, excess capacity is an evil since every dollar spent on overcapacity is a dollar not more than offest by revenues and producing profit. Profit is God. Nothing gets in the way of the God of Profits. We saw the impact of "business thinking" in dealing with Katrina. The necessary capacity just didn't exist!

It also impacts recruiting. No longer can someone enlist and expect to spend some significant amount of time doing REMF stuff as they rotate through the war zone. Thos jobs are gone - "outsourced." The "volunteer" military (a myth from the outset) is even more difficult to sell when an enlistee can count on over 50% of his/her time getting shot at. And where's the job-training carrot? Gone. How many civilian jobs value marksmanship? Only the jobs that increase a police state - prison guards, 'security' personnel, and cops.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-25-06 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. In the short term, you are right, but in the LONG term, it is still more
economical to outsource. That $95 buck a month E-1 eventually turns into an E-6, 7, 9 or 9, does twenty or thirty years, and collects a check on the first of the month until death do they part. World War II vets who 'stayed the course' are making far, far more in retirement (and health care benefits via Tricare For Life) than they EVER did while they were on active duty. For example, a USN E-1 made less than $2K a year during WW2. The kid who stayed in, did a full career, retired as an E-9 after 30 years is getting about a grand more than his WW2 annual pay each and every MONTH. And if he dies, and has elected SGLI, his widow gets a pension until her death. Privatizing allows for surge capacity, and when the 'event' mandating the surge goes away, the costs also go away, and don't come back to haunt one downstream, month after month, year after year. Personnel costs are the biggest chunk of the defense budget. It's why in the Reagan era, they tried to skint on those costs with that crappy REDUX program to reduce retirement costs--it went over like a lead balloon, and they got rid of it eventually.

There is one way to do it without privatization, but it is a political hot potato--the draft. No one is willing to touch that third rail, at least not yet. You draft 'em in, and boot 'em out when you are done with them.

With proper management (emphasis on the word PROPER) it is far cheaper over the long haul to outsource. Your upfront costs are greater, but you aren't having to pay, and pay, and pay over the course of a full career plus a long retirement, with annual COLA increases every year.

The other issues you raise, with regard to the portability of job training for infantry personnel are social issues--I grant you, they are not insignificant ones. However, I was speaking to the economics of the matter, and a military full of potato peelers and rock painters is just not economically viable. This force restructuring has been going on for some time, also--it is not the Monkey's idea. We did it in Bosnia, big time. Also, there are some jobs that do still transport well to the civilian sector--aviators do well, as do military medical personnel and those who work aircraft and other equipment maintenance, as well as anyone working computer systems, drone technology, logistics, communications and so forth.

And there is also a little unfortunate, not often discussed truth with the folks who are toting that weapon and shooting folk in time of conflict--the Services in actual fact don't want most of them to do a full 20 or 30 year career. What they want is a small percentage of them---the best and brightest--to stay on, and lead and train the younger ones--and these young ones are the ones that they want to cycle through for one or two enlistments, and then out and off to school with their GI Bill (assuming they make it out alive). They also intended to use the Guard and Reserves as 'surge' forces, but things have gotten so bad that no one is willing to be conned into that "two weekends a month/two weeks a year BS, because they turn on their TVs and see what the truth of it all is. "Surge" has turned into a full-time job, with no end in sight.

Because infantry type work is a young person's game, the attrition is built into the job, anticipated, even, because the work is so damn onerous, and if we ever get a peace dividend, they use what are termed "force shaping tools" to cull these kids, who are finally catching a break, out. These force shapers can be anything from harder advancement tests (up or out/high year tenure), strict enforcement of physical readiness standards, and Congressionally mandated end-strength reductions, elimination of specialties, requiring kids to transition to another MOS/NEC (and get crappy evals and get marginalized because they don't know the job--they did this with radiomen years back, got rid of a ton of them that way) along with BRAC and installation consolidation as well as intermediate commands being regionalized to reduce the number of paper pushers and administrators.

All that said, I am certainly not blind to the fact that recruiting is flagging, the only way the groundpounding Services are making goal is to first, reduce the goal, and second, reduce the quality of the intakes. But the reason for that has everything to do with the prosecution of this so-called 'war'--it was a bad idea, and it is not going well thanks to an insurgency that they should have anticipated had they half a brain between the lot of them. And even the Cat IV recruits can see that, and that is causing a lot of kids to forgo an 'opportunity to excel' (which is what we always called an incredibly shitty task). Had our forces been used appopriately (to provide for the DEFENSE of the nation, not engage in wars for oil and get revenge for 'tryin' to kill mah deddy') the outsourcing of support functions can, if carefully monitored and competitively bid, save the taxpayers a small fortune. If the cause is just, and makes sense, you don't have trouble getting patriots to step up to the plate to do that tough work, either.

It's not the fault of the tooth-to-tail reduction concept that the Monkey and his crew are a bunch of thieves with their paws up to their elbows in the public treasury. It isn't working because they are deliberately, cheerfully, and aggressively ripping off the taxpayers and failing to provide any oversight or accountability. The fox is watching the henhouse. If we had a few farmers with guns watching the henhouse instead, we wouldn't have this problem. But that's one-party rule for ya--they are going to keep stealing us blind for as long as they can get away with it.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. Halliburton = Cheney = no-bid contracts ...
= incredible coincidence. Don't you believe in INCREDIBLE COINCIDENCES?
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
9. Do you expect the Mafia to contract with non-Mafia businesses?
Get real! They're only dealing with Family businesses, since that's how The Family has always made it's money!



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FloridaPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. Yes, there are tons of them. A CEO of one such company was on TV
after the Iraq invasion. He has a company in Texas and before the invasion had sought information on how to get on the list for oil well construction in case we invade Iraq. He was told there was no list at the time. After the invasion he again looked into it and was told all the slots were filled.

Same with the Katrina mess. Several business owners were on TV complaining that they could do the clean up cheaper than Halliburton and the money would stay local.

Then there is the feeding and watering of our troops. Halliburton was given the contract soon after * got into office. The military people were really pissed because the military had supplied the food and water for centuries and were upset it went to a private company. Now we know why.
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