Thank you Thom Hartmann for broadcasting that Foley is a distraction

[omega minimo]

from:

a) Condi knew 9-11 was coming
b) Woodward book
c) Terror Bill - end of Habeas Corpus
d) something else the Repugs don't want us thinking/talking/writing about........
e) all of the above?



http://www.ThomHartmann.com

[eleny]

1. It may be a distraction but it could be a straw that breaks the elephant's

... back.

And from there, we can begin to take our country back.

[MrCoffee]

105. Absolutely. This is OUR kind of distraction!

If we don't use this to our advantage, we're hopeless.

[LostinVA]

123. Bingo -- sexually stalking minors will get people

Where the other stuff is...

Why? Sometimes people don';t care, or are ignorant,.... but also, many people were molested as children, or know someone who does, and this hits home with them more than torturing "bad guys" does.

[Iwasthere]

2. The British memos

So many. Yes, they will bleed the distraction for all its worth!

[Bill McBlueState]

3. what kind of distraction?

It's one thing to suggest that we should really be paying attention to the things you list -- that the Foley matter is distracting us from other issues. It's something else entirely to suggest that the Republicans intentionally sacrificed Foley in order to distract everyone from those issues.

Which did Hartmann mean?

[omega minimo]

8. Arguing about what kind of distraction is another distraction

:hi:

[Bill McBlueState]

23. ah, I see now.

Sorry 'bout that. :yoiks:

[Moochy]

60. What's going on again?

I was distracted for a moment there... :P

[Nimrod2005]

4. Right on, I agree

[ClassWarrior]

5. It's all a part of the Rape-Publican Culture of Corruption.

To consider it a distraction is to throw away a tactical advantage to make connections in people's minds.

NGU.

[omega minimo]

6. ... and leave behind the connections to violations of the Constitution

...................................

[ClassWarrior]

18. Huh?

:crazy:

NGU.

[Mythsaje]

7. I generally agree with Thom

but this time I think he's wrong. It's a distraction for THEM, not us. It's a story that the average person can understand and I think the outrage is going to knock them on their collective asses for a while.

They're going to spend at least the next week scrambling to protect themselves, and it might just prove to be the end of several Republicans.

It's one issue they CAN'T possibly tie to 9/11.

[omega minimo]

12. "the average person can understand" larger issues if they're explained

"It's a story that the average person can understand and I think the outrage is going to knock them on their collective asses for a while."


If we are incapable of being outraged by the more important events of the week, all is truly lost.

[Mythsaje]

86. In case you haven't noticed

most people don't seem to grasp how the Constitutional issues affect them. A predator in a position of authority, on the other hand, is something they CAN understand as potentially affecting them. Like that West fellow in Spokane. My ex, who lives there, was incensed, and she doesn't really pay any attention to politics, other than to spew vitriol at any politician that crosses her path. Figuratively or literally.

[Poiuyt]

9. It may be a distraction, but it is an issue that will resonate with middle

America. Let's face it, most people don't know what Habeas Corpus means. But they do know when a powerful Congressman is sexually abusing a teenager who has been placed in his trust.

Whatever it takes to reclaim Congress.

[snowbear]

10. I love Hartmann.. but SCREW him if he said that !!!!!

He must not be a parent.

That's the first LAME comment I've ever heard Thom say ----- EVER!

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

13. Agreed. Totally lame.

Whatever it takes to make people realize that the Republicans "keep-you-safer" and the party of "morals" is complete and total horseshit is THE story.

[Imagevision]

62. NOT a distraction, merely more shit on the shovel...

[Iwasthere]

32. Rove will fiigure out a wy to adjust and glean some...

something out of this. Distraction is all hes got

[Mythsaje]

87. Rove may be clever

but he's not a Sith Lord. He can't manipulate every little twist and turn at this point. He's going to run out of wiggle room sooner or later. Everyone of his ilk does. Mark my words.

[SammyWinstonJack]

113. Yeah and it won't be at all obvious when he does try, just like it's not

obvious that the repugs are trying to say the Democrats playing politics with foleygate. :eyes: I think it's the wrong time for rove and his corrupt party to try this tactic.

[bobbolink]

11. OK, so it's more fun than it should be, or sumfin... but we really

are capable of multitasking our rage.

Really.

:nuke: :mad: :nuke: :mad: :nuke: :mad:

See?

:hi:

[omega minimo]

17. Doesn't seem to be.....

:hi:

[Pale Blue Dot]

14. Those claiming Foley "distraction" are overestimating average Americans

Average Americans are not getting all worked up about the torture bill because they honestly believe that it has nothing to do with them. You and I know that that is not the case, but Mr. & Mrs. Joe Sixpack are not us.

However, the Sixpacks have kids. And they love a good sex scandal. Watching the drama unfold is how they unwind at the end of the night, and it's what they talk about at work the next day.

The Torture Bill is our worst nightmare. The Foley scandal is the Republican's worst nightmare. I can't imagine anything worse for them right now.

[omega minimo]

19. Well put. All true except for one important point:

"but Mr. & Mrs. Joe Sixpack are not us"

[Pale Blue Dot]

31. As I've said (what seems like) a hundred times in the past few days

I've been making phone calls for the past month trying to persuade CT Dems & Independents to vote for Lamont. I've probably talked to 200 people. It is not conjecture, but a fact that most people do not pay as much attention to the facts as we do. This is not me being an elitist, but a realist.

This sex scandal is going to bring down the Republican party. I wish it was going down because of torture, Iraq, civil liberties, etc. But I'm just as happy that something is going to do it. Even if it's a sex scandal.

[Bluzmann57]

35. Good point

I am Joesixpack and proud of it. But I do not and never will vote republican. Tired of being considered something less than elite or whatever by some folks.

[Journeyman]

15. To get a mule's attention, you need to whack him with a 2x4. . .

It's not a distraction if the other issues weren't going to engage attention anyway. At this point, I'll take anything that makes people pause. First, we have to gain control of something before we can begin. If Ms Rice's complicity in the deception or the illegal terror bill or anything else is put on hold while we wrest control of enough power to actually do something about the problems, then so be it. At least this way we have a glimmer of hope. Bitching incessantly to the choir about facts we already know may make us feel virtuous and give an air of import to our lives, but down in the dirt scandal may be the ticket to power and I'm not about to give that up in favor of a repeat of impotent rage.

Just sayin'. . .

[gatorboy]

16. Who is it distracting? The American people?

They ignored:

No WMD's
Downing Street Memo
Abu Ghraib
Phone Tapping Americans
Fake Terror Alerts.

Hell, I could go on...They could care less about that stuff.

Average American: "Well that's just GREAT! Real Issues are delaying "Deal or No Deal" again!

The thing is a sex scandal? Now THAT'S something that perks America's interest.

[omega minimo]

22. You're right but how elitist does that sound?

MAKE THEM CARE BY BROADCASTING GOOD INFORMATION

[Renew Deal]

68. But Americans obsessed over OJ, MJ, Scott Peterson, and the rest

:shrug:

[Subdivisions]

20. I did get distracted because it was just so juicy! ...You know...a

SEX SCANDAL!!! WHO CAN RESIST?!?

:sarcasm:

But I haven't forgotten the rest.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

21. No, I disagree

This shows how they lie as a pack. The cover-up will be the death of more than just Foley's political career, or so I believe.

Exposing how they lie opens minds that were otherwise closed to hearing how Condi knew 9/11 was going to happen. They may even be more inclined to listen to us as we explain about the loss of habeas corpus due to the unconstitutional terror bill.

There was very little media coverage on the other issues really, but this is resonating with the masses. And it's 5 weeks until they go cast votes. If this means that we have a better chance of getting back the House and perhaps even the Senate, I don't see it as a distraction. How the hell could it be?

[ClassWarrior]

27. How true. Here's another thread entitled "Congressional Pages and..."

"...the Politics of Fear," which does a good job of connecting this to the crimes and abuses of this fascist Rape-Publican government:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2287264

NGU.

[mondo joe]

24. How patronizing.

Adults can be concerned with more than one issue at a time.

[omega minimo]

28. It's patronizing to think the masses too dumb for other than sex scandal

[mondo joe]

33. Sex always sells. That's not patronizing. But telling your peers

they are too dumb to know what to talk about is patronizing, and profoundly undemocratic.

[omega minimo]

40. It's a distraction than some folks feel is useful

I called no one dumb. You are patronizing.

[MoonRiver]

92. WHO CARES IF IT GETS THE MF'S OUT OF POWER!

Sorry for shouting, but this is ridiculous. Pukes created this "sex scandal" though their perversion and cover-up behaviors. If we can capitalize on it and get the criminals out of power, that's a good thing. :eyes:

[omega minimo]

93. Who can be sure that it WILL get the MF's out of power?

:hi:

[MoonRiver]

96. Foley down, fat Denny may go. People see these clowns for the perverts

they are. Looking good. :)

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[omega minimo]

42. See #35

[kerry-is-my-prez]

25. This isn't just a sex scandal - it's showing us how people in power

will continue to do ANYTHING to keep themselves there.

[omega minimo]

29. You mean like vote a bill to absolve Bushco crimes and give more power

to a Unitary Executive?

[Trajan]

26. There you go again ....

Insisting that everyone focus on your focus .... demanding that one issue blots out all others .... again using 'ONLY this or the other' assertions ....

Too bad you dont get paid for fallacious assertions: you would be a millionaire ....

Chicken Little ? .... the sky is not falling, and life again take's it's natural course ....

And guess what ? ... Thom is occasionally wrong, too .....

[omega minimo]

30. Is there a balance of thread titles on GD for the various issues?

Didn't think so.

[mondo joe]

34. The balance reflects the interests of posters. That's democracy.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

49. !

:applause:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

48. Part I Don't Get Is That This Is Probably The Best Political Ammo To Occur

for the Dems in quite some time. Why on earth some people want to make it go away is quite perplexing in my opinion.

[leftchick]

36. Jack A Memo citing the looming Iraq War!

in 2002!!!!!

[endarkenment]

38. Uh, no.

Thom is wrong. They really do not want the headlines blaring Republican Leaders cover up Republican Child Molestation Scandal.

The other stuff was being managed. This is out of control.

[bobbie]

39. Am I the only one who mistrusts Thom Hartman 'cause of his JFK coverup?

On edit:

Please see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2287891

[earth mom]

41. What's happening with Social Security? Anyone know?

Foley is a sick bastard that we all want to see in jail, but don't forget this is a perfect opportunity for them to try and pull a fast one with Social Security or something else like it while everyone's attention is elsewhere! :grr:

[onenote]

104. Congress is on recess until after the election

I wouldn't worry about a "fast one" on Social Security....

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

43. Methinks You Should Learn To Be More Thankful When Gifts Fall In Your Lap.

Why you keep treating this issue as if it bears no importance or validity to the upcoming elections and is a negative to us instead of a positive, is the enigma of the year in my opinion.

Firstly, stop acting as if DU'ers have not taken any action or forged discussion on the other topics you've listed. There are discussions and actions going on for all of those things.

Secondly, there have been a ton of crimes this administration has pulled off in the past years. How many of them made their way to mainstream culture and sparked outrage? Are you so naive as to think that if the Foley incident hadn't occurred we would've been able to break through to the masses with the others?

Sure, we absolutely should still discuss those other issues and make sure as many people are informed to them as possible, and we are doing so. But please also recognize the huge gift that just fell in your lap: This foley thing is a HUGE momentum builder for the Dems going into the elections. How could you possibly dismiss that? How could you possibly be bitter over that? How could you not recognize how politically damaging of an issue this is to the repubs?

We have more than enough capability and talent on DU to handle multiple topics at a time. But don't be bitter at other DU'ers for recognizing that this Foley incident is a gold mine of political opportunity.

Whatever it takes to get voters to vote for Dems, and repub loyalists to not show up to the polls in November. This foley incident can be a huge catalyst towards that end. Try and appreciate it for what it is.

[omega minimo]

44. Go away

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

45. Please Respond To Context As Opposed To Issuing Personal Attack Please.

I explained quite thoroughly my reasoning. What points did you find yourself not agreeing with? Why didn't you agree with them? Can you offer something of substance to bolster your position?

Those are the ways in which to have a discussion or debate, as opposed to getting personal and inflammatory. If you wish to respond further I'll ask you do so while responding to the context of the post rather than attacking the poster.

Thanks. :hi:

[omega minimo]

46. You know I have nothing to say to you

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

47. Yet You Keep Talking. I'll Take That As Acknowledgment That You

have nothing to disagree with in respect to my post, since it was in fact quite accurate.

Still wish you would've addressed some of the legitimate questions in there, however. But hopefully you will think about some of the valid points raised and have a more enlightened view on the importance of this Foley scandal, since it is definitely a big deal.

[omega minimo]

50. Yet You Keep Talking

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

52. Polly Want A Cracker?

[omega minimo]

51. Thank you everyone-- esp. "Joe Sixpack"

:loveya:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2287462&mesg_id=2287462

[omega minimo]

53. While You Were Sleeping

While You Were Sleeping
Posted by Jcrowley
Among other things, the Act will:
* Strip the US courts of jurisdiction to hear or consider habeas corpus appeals challenging the lawfulness or conditions of detention of anyone held in US custody as an “enemy combatant”. Judicial review of cases would be severely limited. The law would apply retroactively, and thus could result in more than 200 pending appeals filed on behalf of Guantánamo detainees being thrown out of court.
* Permit the executive to convene military commissions to try “alien unlawful enemy combatants”, as determined by the executive under a dangerously broad definition, in trials that would provide foreign nationals so labeled with a lower standard of justice than US citizens accused of the same crimes. This would violate the prohibition on the discriminatory application of fair trial rights.
* Permit the use in military commission trials of evidence extracted under cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
* Give the military commissions the power to hand down death sentences after trials that did not meet international standards.
* Permit the executive to determine who is an “enemy combatant” under any “competent tribunal” established by the executive, and endorse the Combatant Status Review Tribunal (CSRT), the wholly inadequate administrative procedure that has been employed in Guantánamo to review individual detentions.
* Prohibit any person from invoking the Geneva Conventions or their protocols as a source of rights in any action in any US court.
* Narrow the scope of the War Crimes Act by not expressly criminalizing acts that constitute "outrages upon personal dignity, particularly humiliating and degrading treatment" banned under international law. Amnesty International believes that the USA has routinely failed to respect the human dignity of detainees in the "war on terror".
* Endorse the administration’s "war paradigm" – under which the USA has selectively applied the laws of war and rejected international human rights law. The legislation would backdate the "war on terror" to before the 11 September 2001 in order to be able to try individuals in front of military commissions for "war crimes" committed before that date. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2280366&mesg_id=2280366

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

54. If You Like The Thread So Much, And The Other One You Linked,

why don't you pay them respect and actually friggin post in one of them? If you value those threads so much, why don't you kick THOSE threads?

You wouldn't just be using those threads as cover for shameless kicks of this thread, even though those threads actually said something worthwhile, now would you? :rofl:

[omega minimo]

55. That's really not up to you

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

56. You Must've Misunderstood, Since I Never Said It Was. I Had A Pretty Valid

point though, don't ya think? I notice once again though you failed to address legitimate points when they are raised. I'd love to hear the reasoning behind using those well written threads as catalysts to kick a weaker one under the guise of paying them respect, while not respecting them enough to kick them in their own thread or post in them at all.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

57. why do you not address any of the merits of questions youre being asked?

you're awfully unfocused for someone so concerned about misguided attention.

[omega minimo]

64. See #46

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

65. Of Course You Don't.

To have something to say to him, you would actually have to come up with an argument, substance or some thoughtful way to refute valid points.

Instead, your replies seem to either attack people or dismiss them rather than responding to context or offering intelligent rebuttal.

If you're going to post self-righteous or this is how things should be type threads, the least you could do is be prepared to support your argument when questioned by others as to their validity and intent.

[omega minimo]

70. nothing to say to YOU

nice try:rofl:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

72. You've Had Nothing To Say To Anybody.

You seem to take offense with people challenging your opinion. Instead of addressing their concerns and valid points, your replies instead dismiss them completely or attack them. There have been many valid points raised in this thread and your other one, yet you have failed to refute any of them. When a thread is written in a manner that can't be defended when challenged, it generally means the arguments presented in the OP were meritless or indefensible to begin with.

You can mock, attack and ignore all you want, Omega. But I think it is still glaringly apparent that the premise of the OP has been completely and thoroughly challenged legitimately while having nothing presented in return to bolster the original arguments. Instead, the thread is now full of nonsensical statements and self serving kicks as opposed to any real stimulating conversation or debate.

Fact is, this Foley scandal is a huge benefit to the Democratic party and our chances in November. I'm not sure why you take such issue with it or why it is so difficult for you to acknowledge this fact, even when it's been presented to you in so many ways by so many different posters. Maybe, just maybe, we'd have a little more insight into your reasoning if you even began to offer anything additional in your rebuttal to the challenges.

Laugh all you want. Until you address or refute the points raised in your threads of this subject, your premise is left defeated.

[omega minimo]

84. You said, Why bother? STOP bothering!

[omega minimo]

89. WH Records - CONFIRM - Rice DID Recieve al Qaeda Warning Before 9/11

NYT: WH Records - CONFIRM - Rice DID Recieve al Qaeda Warning Before 9/11
Posted by kpete http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2288796&mesg_id=2288796
Rice Received Qaeda Warning Before 9/11
By PHILIP SHENON
Published: October 2, 2006
JIDDA, Saudi Arabia, Oct. 2 — A review of White House records has determined that George J. Tenet, then the director of central intelligence, did indeed brief Condoleezza Rice and other top officials on July 10, 2001 about looming threat from Al Qaeda, a State Department spokesman said on Monday evening.
The account by the spokesman, Sean McCormack, came hours after Ms. Rice, the secretary of state, told reporters aboard her airplane that she did not recall such a meeting and said it was “incomprehensible” she ignored dire terrorist threats two months before the Sept. 11 attacks. Mr. McCormack also said the Bush administration had determined that the Sept. 11 commission had been briefed about the meeting, even though no mention of it appears in the commission’s report.
The question of whether such a meeting took place and what may have occurred has emerged as central since an account of it appeared in “State of Denial,” the new book by Bob Woodward of The Washington Post. The book said that Mr. Tenet and his top counterterrorism deputy, J. Cofer Black, believed that Ms. Rice had not taken their warnings seriously.
Ms. Rice told reporters aboard her plane on Sunday evening, as she began a trip to the Middle East, that she regarded that account as “simply ludicrous.” Mr. McCormack, in confirming later that the meeting had taken place, said that the White House review had found that Ms. Rice had asked Mr. Tenet to provide the same briefing to Donald H. Rumsfeld, the defense secretary, and John Ashcroft, the attorney general. Among those who attended the meting, Mr. McCormack said, was Stephen Hadley, then the deputy national security adviser. —
more at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/02/washington/03ricecnd....

[Irreverend IX]

58. Distraction?

It's like a burglar creating a "distraction" by shooting himself in the foot. Habeas Corpus is too many syllables for US prime time audiences, but GAY SEX SCANDAL is just the thing to get the wheels turning in their Coca-Cola-lubricated brains. This story has greater potential than any of that other stuff to permanently sour Joe America's attitude toward the Republicans. Once that's done, the 9/11, Constitution-shredding stories will break one after another and cement the people's revulsion toward the repubs.

[kentuck]

59. Bingo !

Hartman is right!

[Marr]

61. What nonsense.

I love Thom Hartmann, but if he actually believes the average American would care more about Condoleeza Rice's lies to the 9-11 Commission than a salacious Republican pedophile coverup, he's out of touch. And habeas corpus? Are you kidding me? I've spent the last week bringing the subject up at every opportunity, and so far only one person I spoke with even knew what habeas corpus *is*.

Anyone who cares about the issues you mentioned is already well aware of them, and if they aren't now, they never would be. This Foley story makes the entire GOP leadership look like utter slime, and there is no way in hell it would be used by the GOP as a "distraction" during a congressional election season. It's simply nonsensical.

[mac56]

63. Right on. Great summary.

"Anyone who cares about issues you mentioned is already well aware of them, and if they aren't now, they never would be."

Not everyone understands habeus corpus. Everyone understands peckers.

[omega minimo]

66. Theres no denying it's a distraction

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

69. 90% Of DU Denies It. Are You Really That Blind To Your Own Thread?

How can you just say a simple minded statement such as "There's no denying it's a distraction" without offering ANY GODDAMN ADDITIONAL INSIGHT INTO THAT POINT WHATSOEVER?

I mean, do you not read all of the points raised at all? Do you refuse to open your mind even the slightest bit to see other people's points of view on this matter? Are you incapable of providing further substance to bolster your claims? Can you even begin to refute the valid points raised by many in response to this topic?

I'm so tickled by this response: "there's no denying it's a distraction". I mean holy cow! What a defense.

[omega minimo]

71. keyboard bully

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

74. Yet Another Substanceless Reply.

It is evident you are not capable of responding to context nor offering rebuttal to the plethora of valid questions and challenges presented by several posters in this thread. You are obviously committed to only offering attack rather than thoughtful conversation, while heading down a path of sub-thread deleted.

It is a futile attempt for me to think we're going to get answers from you. Why bother.

Goodnight.

[kentuck]

75. The only way to know for sure is to know who ratted on Foley??

and why? I tend to agree with Hartman, contrary to what "90%" of DU might think. The story that Tenet and the CIA were "alarmed" by the "looming" terrorist threat and "demanded" a meeting with Condi and the NSC staff is a far bigger story than Mark Foley sexcapades, albeit not half as interesting to most folks. And the person that leaked it probably realized that point full well?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

76. "albeit not half as interesting to most folks"

That's the whole point. Those other stories are far more important to us, but we already know the truth. When it comes down to the mass reach of voters we are concerned about, this issue trumps the others 10 fold in regards to impact and chattability. We would want any single one of those other issues to enjoy widespread media attention and common person chatting like we've seen with this. But if we are going to think for a second that could've occurred if only this Foley scandal didn't hit, we'd be fooling ourselves. I think we've educated ourselves enough and seen enough go down already to realize and understand that even in the absence of the Foley scandal the other issues would not have gained the mass traction we would've demanded they had. That's unfortunate, but that's also reality.

The blessing of this scandal is that it is not only a serious issue, but one that resonates across a far spectrum of voters and most definitely takes away repub momentum going into November. And for that, I am thankful.

After all, never look a gift horse in the mouth right?

[kentuck]

77. We've been waiting for this story for five years...

We may have "known" it but we never had it validated until now. That is a big difference. It's all important but in the grand scheme of things, the Foley story is very small potatoes, in my opinion.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

80. Personally, I Think They're All Small Potatoes To A Degree.

I think they all serve one important purpose, and that's to stop any real repub momentum heading into November. I do consider that to be very important, as nothing could sink our chances quicker then if they got some steam behind their agenda and started closing the gap. These multiple stories as of late, and this one imparticular, definitely helps to shield us from that momentum: Especially this close to the election.

But like I said, in the overall end of things, with winning back control of congress being the end game, I consider all these things to be small potatoes. I've been convinced for some time that when it comes right down to it, the most vital aspect of this upcoming election is us: The voters. We must organize, we must register, we must be tirelessly vigilant towards successfully implementing a midterm election GOTV effort like we've never seen before. If we do that, combined with the repub stalled momentum and demoralization, we will win back both houses.

[omega minimo]

91. Well put. ...............Given the timing, yes

"And the person that leaked it probably realized that point full well?"

Immediately after the Terror Bill vote? :eyes:




"....albeit not half as interesting to most folks....."

Wonder if it's possible to MAKE it interesting............

[merh]

111. It is NOT a distraction

it is the glue that will bind the other pieces of the repub scandal, abuse of our nation, together.

Damned shame your mind is so closed you can't see that, but keep mumbling to yourself "its a distraction" if it makes you feel better.

[omega minimo]

114. Why insult merh? What a buncha bullshit.

:evilfrown:

It IS a distraction that some people hope will be "the glue that will bind the other pieces of the repub scandal, abuse of our nation, together."


Maybe they're right, maybe not. I wouldn't count on it.

"Damned shame your mind is so closed you can't see that, but keep mumbling to yourself "its a distraction" if it makes you feel better."

That's a really fucked thing to say. :thumbsdown:

[merh]

120. It's not a fucked thing to say - your perception is what is off.

My post is what is and you don't like it so you find it bothersome. You can't get it through your head that NOT everyone is a political junkie that knows what it is Condi does, let alone, what her lies mean; that understand the writ of habeaus corpus, let alone how the legislation last week has weakened it; who could ever conceive that our leaders would do anything to harm this nation, let alone sell their souls and our future and safety for greed and power.

Once you get your head out of the political elitist clouds, and come back to earth you might recognize that Joe & Suzie Sixpack care about their kids and don't understand about chat rooms and instant messaging, but they sure know what it means when a man in his 50's tells a boy of 15 about his hard on and asks the boy to talk about his hard on.

[omega minimo]

(((((((((((bullshit))))))))))

"My post is what is and you don't like it so you find it bothersome."

What I don't like is that you chose to use personal insults and play this topdog game. I thought you weren't that sort.

There are differing POVs on this. I said "maybe." Who knows how this will play out. I say don't count on Foley being the magic pill.

And your miscomprehension of what I have said is what is OFF......... (Maybe you didn't read the thread) ........including who are the real "elitists" here thinking everyone ELSE is an idiot too dumb to handle actual information n' stuff.

Your assumptions obstruct YOUR perception. But I don't deny your right to have it or insult you for it.

[merh]

133. You do when you take exception to my opinions and belittle them

as insults. You think you are the only one that knows what it going on and you belittle everyone for opining that Foley and the coverup are important.

We have been battling the other major issues for months, no for years and you get all wound up and tell us to stop focusing on "distractions" -- it is you that has insulted the posters that consider the Foley matter important.

But I guess you can't see that - you are too busy badgering folks to see things your way and alleging insults.

How friggin sad.

[omega minimo]

135. Have you complained to Thom Hartmann for "belittling" & "badgering" you?

:evilgrin:


You responded to a post to someone else:

66. "Theres no denying it's a distraction" (that was the whole post)

with:

111. "Damned shame your mind is so closed you can't see that, but keep mumbling to yourself "its a

distraction" if it makes you feel better."

And you accuse ME of something unfounded when I haven't said a word to you:

"you take exception to my opinions and belittle them."

:wow:

Some of the folks getting huffy about this say that DU can "do two things at once." Yet the top of the

board is still glutted with Foley Foley Foley.


I can acknowledge that folks want to talk about it and consider the impacts on Repugs and the election.

I can also acknowledge that it is a distraction from major events and big news of last week.


Folks may be excited about the potential of Foley on the election. It may be "the glue that will bind

the other pieces of the repub scandal, abuse of our nation, together." It may be a mistake to focus on

that and ignore other important aspects or COUNT ON IT to be the "meltdown" of the Republicans.

Folks may not be excited enough about the continuing consolidation and abuse of power (including

retroactively rewriting the laws that were broken) by this administration and the MAJOR event last week

that was eclipsed by the Foley story.


The accusation of "elitism" is COMPLETELY out of line. I have pointed out that it is elitist to treat

the public as too stupid to unnerstan anything but sex scandal, while acting as if SOMEONE ELSE (not

us!!) is the stupid idiotic public. IMHO THAT is "elitist."


Re: Foley, to you I said "Maybe they're right, maybe not. I wouldn't count on it."

"Damned shame your mind is so closed you can't see that, but keep mumbling to yourself "its a distraction" if it makes you feel better."
"your perception is what is off."
"You can't get it through your head"
"Once you get your head out of the political elitist clouds, and come back to earth"

Your insults are not only unfounded, they are vicious.

133. "You do when you take exception to my opinions and belittle them as insults."

THOSE ARE INSULTS!

"You think you are the only one that knows what it going on..."

I QUOTED A WELL INFORMED, BRILLIANT AAR NATIONAL BROADCASTER MAKING THE POINT!!!

"and you belittle everyone for opining that Foley and the coverup are important."

Nonsense.

"We have been battling the other major issues for months, no for years and you get all wound up and tell us to stop focusing on "distractions" "

Battling the major issues of LAST WEEK "for months, no for years"? :silly:
I didn't tell anyone to do anything. That's just a lie.

"...it is you that has insulted the posters that consider the Foley matter important."

More nonsense. I believe people CAN do more than one thing at a time, including consider the impacts of the Foley story and acknowledge it is a distraction from other major issues.

Unfortunately, this sort of huffy and hostile reaction suggests that people actually feel THREATENED by the suggestion of a distraction (maybe not understanding the word and thinking it means cancelling out the story itself) and OFFENDED and mistakenly, angrily assuming that they are being TOLD WHAT TO DO. Now THAT'S "friggin sad."

[merh]

136. Does Thom Hartman post here?

If so, I'll be glad to share my opinion with him.

Your taking exception to those that point out to you that your preconceived notions may be wrong prove nothing more than you hate it when folks disagree with you and your hero, Thom. Dissent is not bad and you need to take your tinfoilhat off and realize there are other views out there.

Simple question for you and your hero - how do we make them answer for their crimes, shy of a revolution, if we do not take back Congress? Foleygate and the cover up may well be our way to take back Congress. Why do you have a problem with that?

No one has TOLD YOU WHAT TO DO, they have just presented differing opinions. It is you that continue to issue ultimatiums and accuse others of attacks and insults.

Deep breath and realize that you and Thom aren't the only ones that know what is going on or with opinions that matter.

[omega minimo]

139. Nevermind

You are not reading what is written.

You are reacting with your own "preconceived notions."

"No one has TOLD YOU WHAT TO DO, they have just presented differing opinions. It is you that continue to issue ultimatiums and accuse others of attacks and insults."

More LIES! That doesn't even make sense, as a reply to my response to your accusation that I was "telling people what to do."


"Deep breath and realize that you and Thom aren't the only ones that know what is going on or with opinions that matter."

Further proof that you haven't read or understood anything I wrote.

Let it go.

[merh]

140. If you want to let it go, stop responding to me

and it would be nice if you apologized for saying I attacked you.

I differed with your position, offered a different perspective, but that is not attacking YOU - calm down and think about it. If you want attacks, I can give you a couple of sites you can post to and you will be attacked. If you want a "hive think" forum, it's not at DU, so don't even think it is and don't expect it to be.

[omega minimo]

141. If you read more carefully, you will see that you are wrong.

[merh]

142. No, I have a different opinion than you have

that does not make me wrong! :hi:

[omega minimo]

144. Your confused replies and accusations are wrong

as I have clearly shown.

[merh]

145. You have proven nothing except that you are not true to your word

what happend to "drop it"?

You have a different opinion than mine, that is all there is to it.

Let's see, we know this administration lied about WMDs and Saddam's connection to 9/11, yet nothing has come of those lies.

We know that the August 2001 PDB did everything but give them a date of the attack, yet that has been ignored and the creeps still control all 3 branches.

We know that the likelihood is that election fraud occurred in Ohio, yet, because we have no power in Congress and despite Conyer's efforts, they still have power and control all 3 branches.

We know that this administration has advocated and authorized torture and that torture has resulted in false terra alerts and bad intelligence (including the intelligence they "relied upon" to say that Iraq had connections to 9/11), yet they are still in power.

So maybe the sex scandal that involves Foley and the repub leadership role in a cover up (not to mention RNC's acceptance of $100,000.00 from Foley just after the leadership was warned of the emails and inappropriate behavior) will be the scandal that will cause voters to either not go to the poles (repubs) and/or to actually come out and vote (dems) against the repubs and maybe we will gain power for the first time in 12 years in Congress.

Again, this is not those other forums where hive think is approved and applauded (or beat into you), if you don't like different opinions, don't bother posting your ultimatiums and/or declarations! :hi:

[omega minimo]

146. I have not made any "ultimatiums" but merely suggested

you need to work on reading comprehension skills.

thank you.

[merh]

148. you need to work on letting things go!

and my reading is fine, maybe your writing needs help :hi:

[omega minimo]

149. I said "Let It Go"

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

150. Oooooooooooh Demanding Much?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

"I said Let It Go"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Holy control issues batman.

[omega minimo]

152. Merely a fact

[merh]

151. Then let it go

:hi:

[omega minimo]

128. .

[Renew Deal]

67. Americans love a good DC sex scandal

So even if we all care about the other stuff, most people will eat the Foley crap up.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

73. He's entitled to his opinion, but

it's not a distraction if it draws more people's attention to the message that it's time for a change.

[omega minimo]

81. Let's hope

it draws more people's attention to the message that it's time for a change. :thumbsup:

[bridgit]

78. Foley is a focal point, another log on the fire...

[blitzen]

79. since Amurikans are "distracted" by habit and inclination...

a distraction is precisely the best way to beat the Repukes

[Nabia2004]

82. It is a distraction - The "rethugs" own the vote...

They are going to milk the Foley issue for all it is worth. They will continue to use the media to pull the wool over the sheeples eyes, no matter how embarrassing the spectacle. Why, because they have no fear of loosing in November.

Conditions for election fraud are worse now than they were in 2000, 2002, and 2004.

[bridgit]

83. meh, don't kid yerself, they're shitting down both pant legs...

[omega minimo]

85. Worse?

Conditions for election fraud are worse now than they were in 2000, 2002, and 2004.
:wow:

[Hippo_Tron]

88. Problem is that the public won't pay attention to those things

At least the Foley story is bad for the Republicans and is also effective for mass consumption. If a sex scandal is going to win the Democrats back the House and Senate, then I'm all for a distraction.

[omega minimo]

90. It would be wise to be wary, given the Up Is Down Repug spin machine

to not put all the election eggs in the Foley basket and think that is the magic that will win this election.

Right?

[Hippo_Tron]

122. I don't think that we've done so by any means

Democrats were in the best position to take back congress that they've been in for years before the Foley scandal. It just so happens that this time, the October Surprise turns out great for us. I don't really see a problem with that.

[GeorgeGist]

94. The Republican party...

is a distraction.

[Beelzebud]

95. I love Hartmann, but on this issue, he's just WRONG.

[omega minimo]

97. Perhaps he doesn't underestimate the American people

[Beelzebud]

98. Perhaps he should.

[omega minimo]

99. Remember Watergate?

[omega minimo]

101. somebody does

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2290779

[Tyo]

100. Agree n/t

[Gold Metal Flake]

102. What specifically did he say that you object to?

Please quote.

[Beelzebud]

103. That this sex scandal is a distraction from real issues.

It's not.

It is a real issue, and one that is resonating with MANY regular non-political junkies.

[Gold Metal Flake]

107. Did he say that?

Or did he really say that the sex scandal is being USED as a diversion by the Republicans and their media helpmates as a diversion so that they did not have to address the fact that finally real, actual evedence of LIHOP has surfaced. Sworn testimony and WH records that Condi, Ashcroft and Rumsfeld were briefed by Tenent about the grave and immediate risk of attack and they did nothing. Evedence that testimony to these breifings was given to the 9/11 commision and that the evedence was left out of the report and it's existence covered up. We saw Condi lie about the breifing. We saw Ben-Veniste lie about the existence of the testimony. At long last we saw LIHOP confirmed yesterday, and that is a huge story. The WH has had copies of Woodwards book for a while now. They could have thrown Foley under the bus to deflect attention away from the bigest story in this country since the British invasion and the burning of the White House.

The Foley scandal is not insignificant. Thom made no such claim. The Foley scandal is not unimportant. Thom made no such claim. Thom is blasting the Republican complicity and coverup. But the Foley scandal is dominating the airwaves and the discussions, and the proof of LIHOP, that the "Pearl Harbour Event" as the President's brother referred to it, was allowed to come about, is being pushed under.

That is what Thom said.

I know because I am listinging to a podcast of yesterday's show right now.

Did you listen to yesterday's show?

[Beelzebud]

108. Yes I listen to Hartmann everyday.

He did say it was a distraction, and thats what I'm disagreeing with.

I love Hartmann. He's my favorite guy on the radio. I'm listening to his show right now, as a matter of fact. :)

I just thought yesterday he was pushing the distraction line a bit too far. I know what his point was, but I think he's overlooking the fact that this opens the door to bring up all those other issues with people.

The myth that Republicans are trustworthy is now shattered to the average American. Now is the time to bring up everything else to them.

[Gold Metal Flake]

109. OK.

I listen to Hartmann everyday as well, but delayed since I can no longer stream at work.

I believe Thom's emphasis on the July presentation by Tenant is to be expected. That is the real scandal. Those in government who are sworn to protect us chose willfully to ignore a real threat. They went on an absurdly long vacation and allowed our nation to be attacked and our fellow citizens and many visitors to be killed. They did it on purpose. It Officially LIHOP. There is no bigger story. Foley is very important, but Officially LIHOP is much more "importanter".

As for myself, I agree with Thom as to which is the more important story. However, Foley will get us wins in the House. If we take the house, I wonder what the great John Conyers will do with the fact that it is now Officially LIHOP? :evilgrin:

It's OK that we disagree. Actually, I am pleased that we are discussing this from the standpoint of both having heard yesterdays show, while many others in this thread who are bashing Thom have not. :toast:

[Beelzebud]

112. No worries. :)

I didn't expect this to get too heated. We're Hartmann listeners, afterall, we like rational discussion. :)

I agree with his point, and yours, I just think this sex scandal actually helps us get the real scandals out to these people, who are now willing to listen.

[onenote]

106. Thom is missing the mark - this helps us with those issues

In case no one noticed, the terror bill passed and I don't recall it resulting in bi-partisan demands for the resignation of top repubs or otherwise threatening the repub power structure. A distraction would be Natalie Holloway's body being found or a little girl falling down a well.

This is a serious issue that resonates with the public. While you and Thom may rank it below other issues, its clear that the public doesn't. However, by undermining public trust in the repub leadership it probably makes the public more amenable to accepting our arguments on these other issues.

Credibility, people. Its everything. Here we have a scandal with a smoking gun. It undermines the trust that the public might otherwise put in Hastert and his ilk. And as a result it actually helps, not hurts, us with the public on other issues.

[omega minimo]

115. "The public" just sees ALL politicos as corrupt sleazebags & quits voting

[onenote]

117. if you say so

:shrug:

[omega minimo]

118. Have you asked any Repugs what they think?

[onenote]

121. actually I have -- they think its a fuckin' disaster

I work with a former senior repub Hill staffer...very close to leadership. The repub plan was to go out and campaign on exactly the things we think that they fucked up on....the port security bill, what they would call the "terror compromise" (pointing to Warner, McCain, Graham's endorsement to gain indie support, since those guys are viewed less suspiciously by indies than the repub leadership).

Now they are completely off message. Its back to repub scandals. For every two stories about Foley, at least one also mentions Duke Cunningham, and Ney, and Abramoff. They are shitting bricks, if you want to know the truth.

[omega minimo]

130. Good

:bounce:

[Gold Metal Flake]

110. E) All of the above.

See my posts 109 and 107 for my reasoning. :hi:

[omega minimo]

116. Thanks for clarifying

:toast:


"The REAL story is the July 10th meeting" (Tenet, Rice, 2001, re: attack)

[Gold Metal Flake]

119. 7/10... 7/10... 7/10... 7/10... 7/10....7/10.... 7/10.... 7/10.... 7/10...

There it is. LIHOP.

Work the Foley for all we can. But don't be surprised if we find out that the Republicans held onto this guy to flip him later. Don't be surprised if Hastert keeps his seat (if not his leadership) and is re-elected. We have heard today that the RNC will abandon some shakey seats and campaign hard for thise House seats that have a chance to win, so as to keep the majority. Add electrion fraud to the mix.

If they lose the majority, Republicans will go to jail. There is no doubt. The stakes for the Republicans are higher than they ever have been. Question everything. Question every scandal. Question every news story. Take nothing at face value. The greatest liars, theives and killers of our time face their greatest threat to their dominance. Their massive intelligence, media and war machines will be employed to the fullest. Disinformation is pouring out of the massive BFEE.

Let's be careful out there.

Or, if you prefer, let's do it to them before they do it to us.

[Strelnikov_]

124. Very Possible. 7/10 Directly Attacks Their 'Strength'

If the other shoe drops soon (a Dem chasing female Pages, for example) I think we will have our answer.

[Strelnikov_]

125. And Here Comes That Other Shoe. Operation Distraction, Phase II

"Rumor that National Journal will drop bombshell on another Congressman"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2542999

[onenote]

138. whatever happened to this "rumor"

[Warren DeMontague]

126. Sorry, OM. It's a distraction that puts a torpedo hole in their one last

strong suit- namely, the glassy-eyed religious right gang that thinks the GOP is the party of "traditional values".

No one was paying a whole lot of attention to those very important things before Foley, either. We've had Abu Ghraib, the DSM, oodles of 9-11 revelations and books out the god-damn yin yang over this administration. The people who get it, get it. The rest don't give a shit- but give them a good old fashioned sex scandal, that wakes them from their stupor.

It's sad but it's true, and to be perfectly honest, at least something is finally getting those folks' attention about the rampant hypocrisy & corruption in the GOP: it's about time.

[omega minimo]

129. From your lips to God's ears

:evilgrin:

[Warren DeMontague]

131. God & me? We're just friends I swear

golf buddies.

[omega minimo]

132. :snicker:

:pals:

[David Ippolito]

127. IT IS A DISTRACTION! And, that's why...

And, that's why I wrote the parody! "Mamas Don't Let your Babies Grow Up to Be Pages".

I accept where middle-America's focus lies. Parody about this scandal might shake 'em up just a little. I want to bring people to my website, where I'm keeping track of the "George W. Bush Tragic Number".



That's the number of American fatalities in wholly unAmerican and immoral war until George W. Bush and the people who continure to supprt him are directly responsible for the EQUAL number of people killed by Osama Bin Laden in the World Trade Center in MY hometown.

It's hard to keep up with! 11 more americans have been killed since Sunday while everyone's watching FOLEY!

Andthe "Tragic Number" stands at 22.

http://www.thatguitarman.com

Peace

~ David

[Jcrowley]

134. The number is much higher than that

Hunger, no health care, poverty and so on... well you get the picture.

And the nations eyes are turned towards the media hologram.

Headin' towards Iran at this moment:

[David Ippolito]

137. Oh, believe me, I know.

I haven't even included the 600+ civilian contractors who've been killed in that nightmare. I'm just trying to make a powerful point of direct responsibility... as a New Yorker who stood in the streets that horrible morning in September.

Iraq had NOTHING to do with the deaths of my friends. This adminstrations exploitation that tragedy is morally treasonable to the American people... and, revolting and abhorent to me personally. And very very soon, (Probably before the end of this month) more Americans will be killed there than Osama Bin Laden killed downtown. I put this squarely on the hearts and consciences of ANYONE who supports this wholly unAmerican administration for whatever reason.

http://www.thatguitarman.com

I talk about it again in my update today, and often on "The Wednesday Wake-Up Call".

[Armstead]

143. Shameless Plug here for a related thread

I don't think Foley is a complete distraction. But it is distrcting from otehr important things.

I do think it brings a much deeper trend into focus, which I describe in the thread below.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2307860

(Yes this is a shameless plug, but I worked hard on that post and I think it addresses this in a substantative way.)

[Tyo]

147. Sex scandals aren't Hartmann's thing

I find Hartmann a little pretentious, kind of condescending, and generally pretty full of himself. He’s a good read, but I get annoyed listening to him and I think he’s a little out of touch sometimes with average people even though he stresses his "common" roots.

In my opinion he sees the whole Foley debacle as being a bit beneath him and a distraction from the “serious” issues he prefers to focus on. Seems to me though that this thing might just lead people into looking at those more serious issues and maybe some dots will finally start to get connected

[Hidden Stillness]

153. No

With all due respect, omega minimo, and I like you a lot so I will not criticize you, I think Rove, Hastert, Boner, Vice-President Halliburton, and all the rest of the criminal capitalists, would rather have any other issue, any other discussion--talk about the Iraq disaster, please!--rather than this. Thank God the American people are not paying attention--as usual--to the orders of the Richie Rich "revolutionary bloggers," fresh from their asshole "revolutionay bloggers conference" at the Washington D.C. Hyatt-Regency, or some such shit. (Slogan: "Where Inferior Sheeple Peons Like Johnny Beer-Gut Can't Afford to Get In.")

There was a recent thread here on DU, called "Kerry links Foley, Katrina, 9/11 response, Iraq, GOP culture of corruption," that was kind of swamped by all the other Foley threads, but that expressed what I think was the right attitude toward this scandal. Kerry did not consider the Foley abuse of pages to be "different" from the rest of the Republican abuses, but considered this to be just the latest of the current Republican abuses of power, cover-ups, possible crimes, lack of Congressional oversight, consolidation of Party power to the whole world's detriment, arrogance, and complete failure to even enforce laws anymore. It is actually the same as Iraq, Katrina, etc., etc.--and it is. Further, this abuse and the total Republican cover-up of a predator rather than ANYONE doing ANYTHING to help these victims, whom they knew about at least three years ago, is an outrage that they cannot defend, that finally, really, shows what these people (males) are and that they have no morals at all, and is a scandal that has hit home with every family that has ever sent kids away to school, anyone who cares about victims no one will listen to, anyone trying to make people understand that this group of Republicans will STOP AT NOTHING. It is not about "sex" at all, but about adult male Republicans who will not lift a finger to help kids who are threatened and harrassed right under their noses, and who will protect the criminal when it is one of their own. EVERYTHING they do is tactical and strategic.

This bastard Hastert is still attacking Democrats, as the first, last and only line of defense, covering up, lying, and refusing to answer questions. Finally, at long last, it is not going to work, and "reporters" are not going to kiss their asses as always, and let it slide. Hastert just BLAMED ABC, George Soros, and Bill Clinton...This is a God-damned nut case, a manipulative abuser, whose only tactic is "kill," and finally, at long last, it is being exposed. They have never, up to this point, been made to answer for anything they have ever done, and so the fuller, more extreme reaches of their viciousness, and a real expression of it, has never been displayed. Now, finally, their corporate media has found an issue they themselves do not want to seem to be defending or "spinning" on their Republican Party's behalf--the predatory stalking of teenage pages in their own Congress--and so, finally, their Republicans are on their own, and have to answer. This has never happened before, and like Social Security, Terri Schiavo, etc., the American people are leading the way on this and being outraged, not checking with any of the overpaid "consultant" simps first. With all due respect, after years of a depressed economy in many regions, hopeless, increasing debt, skyrocketing prices and fees, that people are being crushed by and can't afford, that no one is referring to let alone solving, to get the Rich Boy's orders--"You peons will be 1) Against the Iraq war, 2) against the Iraq war, and 3) against the Iraq war"--no matter how YOU suffer, is just to continue the horrible "top-down" approach to politics, where we will be told what the rich consultant wants us to think about, and never what relates to us. This is why this group has had no successes as yet, with convincing the American people. Gee, and they are so "superior"...

There are many levels of things going on in the world, many levels of corruption, (Bill Moyers just had a fabulous report on the Abramoff/Republican/corporate-lobbyist-writing-laws, etc., scandal last night), and only some of them really hit home. This Foley abuse, and the unconscionable Republican protection and cover-up FOR YEARS of this thing, is one of them. With all due respect, you seem like somebody who is not satisfied with a person who has quit smoking because they don't want their teeth to turn yellow, rather than the important reason that they might get cancer, and so you tell them to start smoking again, and not to quit until they have a good reason. I say--Thank God for worries about yellow teeth; they have saved us.

[Rex]

154. Distraction is a term used by people who can't multitask.

I had no idea we had lemmings in the Dem party.