THREE school shootings in ONE week. Isn't it GREAT that guns are so easy

[Redstone]

to get in America?

Redstone

[LeftyMom]

1. I'm going to nominate this,

because you're right.

[SmokingJacket]

3. Me too. nt

[EFerrari]

9. Me, too. n/t

[Fox Mulder]

10. Me three. n/t

[leftchick]

34. me twelve!

:)

[LeftyMom]

36. Who knew I was such a trendsetter?

:shrug:

[Redstone]

45. Why surprised? You should know by now that a lot of DUers want

to be like you...

(No sarcasm whatsoever, though I probably don't have to tell you that.)

Redstone

[SammyWinstonJack]

93. me nineteen.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

115. Me 21st!

[Midlodemocrat]

143. Me, too. I'm just sick about this.

[whistle]

Indeed and the republican response will be....guns don't kill people

...people kill people! All bullshit

[Rocknrule]

17. Guns don't kill people, Dick Cheney does

[deathdog]

43. Now, now...Dick never killed anyone

that we know of. He's no better a shot than he is anything else.

[Redstone]

47. Well-said. And may I offer you a welcome to DU?

You'll like it here. Terrific place to hang out.

Redstone

[deathdog]

92. Yes, you may--and may I say "Thanks!"? Thanks!

[Redstone]

130. You're welcome. Gotta go eat dinner now; I'll see you around the

forums (or shold that be "fora?"

Redstone

[terrya]

2. Oh, yeah...I'm SO glad guns are so darned easy to obtain.

How do those motherfuckers at the NRA sleep at night?

[Redstone]

16. Hey, they're preserving our RIGHTS, don't you know? Such as our

right to break into schools and murder little girls.

Some asshole commented to me on another thread that he could have "just as easily killed them with steak knives."

Somehow, I don't think so.

Redstone

[michreject]

131. So. If someone disagrees with you

He's an asshole?

Don't even bother replying, You're not worth it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

175. He's an asshole because of what he said

not because he disagreed.

Why post if you don't want replies?

[michreject]

230. Why reply for someone else? ....eom

[proud2BlibKansan]

257. Because he is my friend

and I am in complete agreement with him on this issue.

[Bluebear]

4. Charlton Heston will be busy visiting all these cities!

He always turns up near gun tragedies to affirm our right to arm bears.

[Poiuyt]

5. Plus one major one that was averted in Green Bay

[deathdog]

7. Oh, yeah

My folks, who live in WI told me about this. It is amazing--the number of these incidents.

[deathdog]

6. I just said the same thing to my partner this morning

For us, as Mennonites, this latest strikes especially close to home, but each shooting is so terribly sad. And so completely preventable.

[bobbolink]

8. I watched "Bowling For Columbine" for the first time last week.

hmmmm, maybe that's what sparked this..

Wondering when we, as a nation, will come to grips with our fascination with violence.

[Deep13]

19. Oh, we have come to grips and fully accept that fascination.

We are violent. The question is not eliminating that, but how to best live with it. Eliminating violence would be like eliminating sexuality or fingernail growth. It is just not going to happen. 10,000 years ago, a very short time in evolution, we were living in caves and raiding our neighbors for food and women. We can't just turn that off even if we can read and drive cars now. I find that people who refuse to accept their true nature are nuerotic at best. I also note that the least violent societies also have the highest suicide rates (with or without guns).

[bobbolink]

80. Really? Just accept it and "move on"?

That's interesting.

Other societies haven't attempted to eliminate sexuality (interesting that you combined those two things), or fingernail growth, yet don't have NEAR the level of violence.

So, how is it "not going to happen" in those societies?

Hmmmm?

[Redstone]

121. Yes, bobbolink, you are 100% correct. And I have numbers to back you up:

FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:

* 373 people in Germany
* 151 people in Canada
* 57 people in Australia
* 19 people in Japan
* 54 people in England and Wales, and
* 11,789 people in the United States

(*Please note that these 1998 numbers account only for HOMICIDES, and do not include suicides, which comprise and even greater number of gun deaths, or unintentional shootings).
- Provided by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

Redstone

[bobbolink]

127. Thanks for the numbers. I'd seen 'em recently, but didn't have

the fortitude to look 'em up.

We're really a mess, aren't we?

BTW, did the recent numbers include Cheyney?? :rofl:

Yeah, I know... but Foley has me enjoying things too much right now... :hi:

[thirdpower]

132. Oh look more partial numbers

That don't include Russia or Mexico or South Africa or any country w/ less murders and lower firearms crime.

Shock that it's from the Brady Bunch.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

269. Okay, then add them all up together...

And you have:


* 373 people in Germany
* 151 people in Canada
* 57 people in Australia
* 19 people in Japan
* 54 people in England and Wales
----------------
1,824 people

and
* 11,789 people in the United States

Make you feel better?

[druidity33]

155. well...

i'm not pro-gun, but i'm afraid the stats there may be a little skewed. There are many more people in America than in any other of those countries that you listed. A more accurate comparison might be to evaluate the data as compared to population density.


What are the numbers for China, India and Russia?

[Redstone]

158. Do the math. Per capita numbers show the same thing.

And what the fuck do China, India, and Russia have to do with anything?

Redstone

[thirdpower]

164. Nope.

Try, try again.

[thirdpower]

163. Don't know about China or India

But Russia is over 20/100K along w/ Mexico and SA. All w/ strict "gun control".
Finland, Switzerland, and Canada all have high percentages of Firearms w/ low murder rates.

There isn't a correlation.

[Deep13]

184. Which societies are those?

I say accept our nature and figure out how best to live with it. I don't mean accept violent crime. I think you know that. I don't think this society is much more violent than most others and far less so than many. I think the media exaggerates it. I realize our murder rate is high. I believe there are several specific causes for that such as an abandonment of "bad neighborhoods" by society. When people have no hope they will do anything. Anyway, changing humanity's hardwired nature will not happen.

[bobbolink]

228. Well, then... think again.

The Mexican society--definitely violent.

Others... nope, barking up the wrong tree.

But, I don't sense you're actually wanting to discuss it so much as promote your narrow view.

So, have fun with that.

:hi:

[Deep13]

255. How is it narrow?

It is easy to ridicule people for disagreeing with you as if there is one only absolute truth. I know this because there are a number of a.m. radio and cable "news" shows that do nothing but that. I think your assumption that we are somehow unusually violent as a nation is just plain wrong. We are a bit paranoid, but that is more of a media problem than anything else.

[Disturbed]

20. Is Tom Sellick the new NRA Spokesperson?

I read that that here on LBN.

[Deep13]

28. Dunno, but he has been on that bandwagon for a long time. nt

[Guaranteed]

98. What did you take away from it?

Did you think Moore was blaming violence in America on the prevalence of guns? I don't think that was the point he was trying to make....

[bobbolink]

105. I think he very clearly said he didn't have any answers.

And, I was counting on him, damn! :evilgrin:

I think it's a complicated issue, and seems to me to be worthy of more of our attention.

Wonder how many kids being shot it will take before we take our nation's violence issue seriously???

BTW, for what it's worth.... the Bailey, CO area has a LOT of guns.

I'm assuming the Amish area not so much.

I hate guns myself, but I'm not ready to say that's the whole issue. I certainly don't see the need for assault rifles in the hands of the general public, though.

AFter all that... what do YOU think was the point he was trying to make?

:hi:

[slackmaster]

112. The Amish are farmers, farmers all own guns

To protect their crops from varmints.

[bobbolink]

113. Of course. I knew that.

:blush:

[proud2BlibKansan]

180. Was the shooter Amish?

[deathdog]

187. I've been trying to find out

So have people on an Anabaptist board I'm on. Consensus seems to be that he isn't Amish now, but may have been in the past--maybe shunned. Still no definite info, though. Just lots of speculation.

[slackmaster]

206. The shooter was batshit crazy

Since he drove a milk truck for a living I think that rules out him being a practicing Amish.

[Guaranteed]

213. His argument seemed to lead one to the conclusion that

America's culture leads people to want to kill each other.

[bobbolink]

216. I can relate to that.

:evilgrin:

Some days more than others, of course... :hi:

[Deep13]

11. What are the other two?

Anyway, I've never shot anyone and neither have any of my friends. I don't think you can blame criminal acts on people not involved with crime.

[Fox Mulder]

12. There was one in Colorado and another in WI.

[Deep13]

24. Very strange.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say they were white, suburban schools. (I know the PA one was an Amish school of all things, though the assailant was not Amish.)

[Redstone]

52. Yeah, REAL fucking strange in a country where any lunatic can buy

all the guns he wants.

Doesn't add up, does it?

Redstone

[thirdpower]

57. YAY!!!

Fish for dinner tonight. Plenty of Red Herring to go around. It's got no substance though.

[Redstone]

58. Why don't you try telling the parents of one of those dead kids how cool

guns are?

Redstone

[thirdpower]

59. More Fish???

You really don't have anything better, do you? I ask again, what law would have stopped this?

[Redstone]

64. Go play with your Holy Guns for a while; you'll feel better. Unlike those

parents who lost children today.

Redstone

[thirdpower]

67. And now the insults...

Typical. Are they flavoring for the Herrings?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

122. God that's getting old quickly...

Why don't you drink a bottle of Jack and go clean your guns?

[Redstone]

128. Boy, am I glad I put that guy on Ignore. That must have been a doozy of

a post.

Redstone

[thirdpower]

133. Truly an inspiring post..

More Ad Hominems and insults w/o being able to answer a single question.

[proud2BlibKansan]

183. A law banning guns

[bobbolink]

117. Except that most likely, at least the ones in CO, own guns themselves

And, as someone wiser than me pointed out, the Amish are farmers, and most likely have guns, also.

sigh... We're just addicted to our violence, and need to come to grips with that!!

[spoony]

237. Unless you mean humans in general

I'd wonder aloud how Amish farmers are a part of any culture of violence.

[bobbolink]

283. ????

Yanno, there is so much arguing here, and so little listening, that nothing is making ANY sense at all.

Amish? Violent?

:wtf:

I'm retiring until/unless people actually want to discuss and try to reach understanding.

Fighting for the sake of fighting is ridiculous.

As a matter of fact, I'd call it part of the cycle of violence.

Good night, ok?


Oh, yeah, and you'd probably like to have the last word.

Have at it.

[spoony]

285. Very well

You said: "And, as someone wiser than me pointed out, the Amish are farmers, and most likely have guns, also.sigh... We're just addicted to our violence, and need to come to grips with that!!"

And I wondered what Amish farmers with guns have anything to do with any kind of addiction to violence, if indeed that's what you meant. Since, you know, the shooter wasn't Amish. Of course instead of clarifying or replying with anything edifying you reacted like I'd tripped your grandmother, so there isn't much point in conversing with you.

[bobbolink]

286. back atcha.........

bye, now. :hi:

[Deep13]

202. Lunatics are prohibited from buying guns as are felons.

By the way, the modern term is "incompetent." We know enough about psychiatry now to know that there is no one condition of lunacy. The shop owner does an FBI background check before the sale. I know about the gun show loophole and I already agree with you on that. I have several and yet have never been adjudged a lunatic. Neither have the numerous other gun owners I know. Now, I have been known to become pretty peeved, miffed, irked, perturbed, bothered and even annoyed. Never lunacy, though.

[deathdog]

225. They seem to keep gettin' em

Maybe it should be harder for everyone to get 'em.

[Deep13]

252. I'm sorry about this crime.

I don't think the whole country should be punished for it. There are a lot of things in this country that are a lot more dangerous than firearms. The fact that they are weapons, however, and the fact that the crimes are maliciously committed means that some people have an emotional reaction to them where they don't have that reaction to cars, cigarettes or junk food. To you the loss of gun rights is no big deal. To many, however, it is a basic part of their thinking. And those people are not the typically ones that commit mass murder. The stereotypical "gun nut" may be deluded about a lot of things, but he is usually very safe with his firearms.

How do you know this guy was a lunatic anyway? The problem with any prospective prevention is that a person is not a criminal until they commit a crime. Restricting everyone because a few are unsafe is like banning certain books or websites because children might visit them. (I know what you are going to say and no it is not harmless for a developing child to be exposed to certain media.)

[JuniperLea]

13. Too late to make them "not" easily available

The black market in guns is one of the strongest businesses in the US. I think we waste too much time in the circular argument of gun control. It's an argument that has been going on for decades and there has been no gain in ground on it. Not one inch.

It's time to make stronger laws and very long mandatory jail time for anyone using a gun in a crime. That's "USING" a gun... even threatening with a gun, real or not, should be an automatic MINIMUM of five years. No warnings, no strikes... you get out and use a gun again, it's life. No nonsense.

[slackmaster]

14. What are the requirements in your state, Redstone?

Just curious. I live in California where there are no legal unregulated sales - All transfers have to be done through a licensed dealer, the buyer gets a background check, there is a 10-day waiting period, and you are limited to one handgun per 30-day period.

Background checks and the waiting period apply to gun show transactions and private-party transfers.

Every gun sold must be accompanied by a state-approved locking device, unless the buyer can prove that he or she owns a state-approved container like a safe.

A person buying a handgun must have a state-issued Handgun Safety Certificate, and for each handgun purchased must demonstrate that he or she knows how to safely unload it.

Handguns are registered with the state Department of Justice.

We have a Child Access Prevention (CAP) law, which makes it a crime to store your gun in a negligent manner that results in a kid getting it and injuring or killing someone.

There are many, many other restrictions in my state. What laws are in place in yours, and what others do you think would help with the problem of criminal misuse of firearms?

[Redstone]

21. Balls. Anyone, anywhere, can go to Florida and buy anything at a gun show.

No questions asked.

We're talking about dead children here. I'm not fucking interested in justifications.

Dead children.

Redstone

[slackmaster]

25. That would not be legal

For a non-Florida resident to buy a gun from a private individual in Florida and transfer it to his or her home state.

[Demobrat]

30. What does legal or illegal have to do with anything?

Anybody in this country can get a gun any time they want one.

[slackmaster]

33. True enough

If someone is willing to break the law he or she can obtain or do pretty much anything.

:eyes:

[Redstone]

35. Let's nitpick some more. DEAD CHILDREN. Got that?

How much would you like your fucking precious guns if one of those children was yours?

Redstone

[slackmaster]

37. I keep my guns locked up securely

I wish more people would store theirs responsibly.

I understand you are upset about the incident, Redstone. How do you think I feel about it? I wish there was something I could have done to prevent it, or something that I could do to prevent it from happening again.

[deathdog]

101. the kid in Wisconsin pried open his dad's gun cabinet

Who's to say what's secure? If there'd been no guns in the house, there's a good chance there'd have been no shooting.

Do you keep your crowbars locked up, too?

[slackmaster]

111. In California it comes down to what a jury considers reasonable care

Something that requires drastic measures to defeat, e.g. hacksaws, crowbars, bolt cutters, would seem pretty reasonable to me.

Mine is way above that level of security.



It cost me a pretty penny, but worth it for the peace of mind that my collection won't get stolen and misused (not to mention protecting its financial value). A federal tax incentive (deduction) for buying good storage devices might get more people to use them.

Wow, did someone just post a constructive suggestion?

[Demobrat]

41. It's called collateral damage.

What's a few dead kids compared to the right of every poor, undersized, sot in the USA to bear arms?

[Irreverend IX]

75. You must really like losing elections.

Should I remind you that if it weren't for the massive blow to Democrats' popularity dealt by the "assault weapons" ban and anti-RKBA rhetoric, Bush wouldn't be in office and several thousand more Iraqi kids would be alive? There's some DEAD CHILDREN for you.

[Redstone]

123. You win the prize for stupidest post I've EVER seen on DU.

Redstone

[Midlodemocrat]

150. LOL. That's funny. The RW cares WAY more about

gay marriage than they do about guns. :thumbsup: for a remarkably short sighted post.

[proud2BlibKansan]

194. What?

Those of us who oppose guns are repsonsible for bush getting elected?

And all this time I thought it was Diebold machines and the Supreme Court.

[leftchick]

38. Gun Shows in NC are pretty fucking scary too!

you should see some of the freaks that go to them. :scared:

I agree wholeheartedly with your feelings Redstone. :cry:

[Demobrat]

26. I live in CA too.

If I wanted a gun I'd go down to the local bar, order a drink, put my order in and have it before last call. The only requirement is that a local, preferably one of the off-duty cops, vouch for me.

[slackmaster]

32. That would be illegal too

I don't see any constructive suggestions on what to do about the problem of criminal violence here.

ETA sorry to hear about your problem with corrupt police officers.

[Redstone]

53. You're big on the legal niceties, but I haven't seen a response from you

on the subject of dead children.

Redstone

[thirdpower]

55. Maybe you should respond to his questions..

Can you do that w/o screaming "OMG DEAD CHILDREN" over an over? What laws do you think would have prevented this?

[Redstone]

61. How about a law that keeps maniacs from buying guns, for one?

Pretty simple. Besides which, dead children is exactly the fucking point here. THAT's why I keep repeating it.

Redstone

[thirdpower]

62. Define "maniacs" please...

Can you do that or are you visions of dead children getting in the way?

[Redstone]

70. How about people who kill kids? Enough of a definition for you?

I'm tired of your bullshit. Reply if you want to, but it won't matter because you're going on Ignore right now.

There's your third power right there; the poser to click the "ignore" button.

Redstone

[thirdpower]

71. Already against the law..

And an exclusively emotional arugement gets thwacked down and I get put on "ignore". How persuasive. You've convinced me. :sarcasm:

[michreject]

173. And laws keeping maniacs from buying guns

Redstone - Balls. Anyone, anywhere, can go to Florida and buy anything at a gun show.

No questions asked.

We're talking about dead children here. I'm not fucking interested in justifications.

Dead children.

would stop the above from happening how? Your own words. Please explain.

[slackmaster]

63. There is no point in responding to a rant other than commenting on style

I was trying to redirect the conversation away from an appeal to emotion and make something constructive out of it. ETA it's probably pointless as this is quickly decaying into Gungeon material.

You haven't said what you would do about the problem of guns being "easy to get". For a large percentage of us the "getting" of a gun would consist of going to the closet and pulling out one we already own. In my case, add 30 seconds for dialing the combination on my safe. For those of us who don't already own one, there are certain procedures that must be followed to acquire one legally. Those procedures vary depending on where you live. Buying one (legally) in California requires documentation, a background check, and a waiting period. I don't consider that to be too easy, but in some states there are no controls whatsoever on private sales of used firearms. I think that should be changed, but I am not sure exactly how or what would be politically feasible. (Not that the lack of controls on used guns in PA had anything to do with this tragic event. We don't know.)

I have a stepson BTW (technically an ex-stepson). He's 23.

[leftofthedial]

15. if we armed all the teachers with tactical nukes

the story would have been quite different

an armed-with-tactical-nukes society is a polite society

[Redstone]

23. You betcha. Well-said.

Redstone

[Midlodemocrat]

134. Yup. They have a 'glowing' reputation.

:rofl:

I kill myself.

[nam78_two]

18. recommended/nt

[Oeditpus Rex]

22. Now, now — he was a Law-Abiding Citizen

Right up to the moment he killed someone.

[Redstone]

29. Yup. He had his RIGHTS, didn't he? And exercised them, too.

I wonder when I'll get the first reply that says "hey, cars are legal too, and he could have run over the kids with a car, so shouldn't we ban cars?"

I bet it'll be soon.

Redstone

[Oeditpus Rex]

42. It's in the Second Amendment

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, and to blow the holy shit out of other people when they get sufficiently drunk, stupid or crazy, shall not be infringed.

And the little-known Second and a Half Amendment:

Should the people run out of ammunition, the right to smash someone with their car shall not be infringed, either.

[Redstone]

54. Or kill kids. You forgot that provision.

Redstone

[deathdog]

182. What does "well-regulated" mean? Anyone know? nt

[Scout]

wait til Juniperx tells you to outlaw penises to prevent rape n/t

[leftofthedial]

95. right down to the Bush 2004 sticker on his truck

[skipos]

27. This shit could have just as easily been done with knives.

As Michael Moore noted in Bowling for Columbine, there are tons of guns in Canada, and not as many gun related deaths. Get rid of guns and it will take them out of the hands of reposible people and idiots will still be able to get them on the black market.

A war on guns would be every bit as unsuccessful as the war on drugs, imo.

[Redstone]

40. Gee, how did I know THAT could be coming? He could have hit them with

fucking bricks too, couldn't he?

Dead children. You got any kids?

Redstone

[skipos]

51. So we agree

guns or not he would have killed people.

[Redstone]

56. Give me a fucking break. That statement is just stupid. Please don't waste

my time with such simplistic idiocy.

So, you have kids or not? Why don't you call the parents of one of those dead kisd and explain to them that it's OK, because he COULD have used a knife?

Redstone

[skipos]

65. Redstone, I have a kid

will that make you relax a bit now? I didn't insult you, did I?
:pals:

[Oeditpus Rex]

66. If knives are as efficient as guns

and, given that knives are much easier to get, why is it we never hear of someone cutting up a school?

[skipos]

74. I see your point.

Make guns harder to get, I agree. Banning, no. Ask redstone if he'd like to ban guns.

[Oeditpus Rex]

82. I may not agree with Redstone

That's neither here nor there.

I posted this a few days ago: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2264752#2264815

[skipos]

86. Interesting. I agree with most DUers then. nt

[Selatius]

109. Are you kidding? Kids get carved up all the time.

When you don't have guns, you have pipes, knives, brass knuckles, chains, etc. Many students die each year as a result of violent crime in poor inner-city areas, but the only time it hits the news is when it happens in White neighborhoods.

[Xithras]

129. It just doesn't make the news.

Just happened a few days ago in Sacramento. Couple kids got into an argument with a few other kids, one pulled a knife, and by the time it was all over one of the boys was gutted and another wounded. Happened right in front of one of the area high schools.

Knife violence happens every day in the US, and is FAR, FAR more common than gun violence. If you don't believe me, just do a search for "knife attack school" on Google and view the thousands of articles that are linked. Almost none make it past the local media, but it happens almost every single day in this country. If you want to argue that they aren't on the same scale, I'd have to point out that a couple of years ago a guy walked into a chinese school and killed eight teenagers before he was finally stopped.

If guns were banned, you'd simply see these stories elevated and everyone would be screaming about knife violence instead. If you don't believe me, just look at the UK...they're actually contemplating BANNING pointy knives and scissors since guns were taken out of play and everyones attention shifted to bladed violence.

The point is that the weapon used is largely irrelevant. What we need to do is address the reasons why people are this violent in the first place, and determine what we can do to prevent it. Knife, gun, propane bomb. People who want to kill people are going to find a way to do it.

[Oeditpus Rex]

223. I'll rephrase the question

without changing its point: When was the last time you heard of someone going on a stabbing spree? You cited one example; that hardly stands up to the number of shooting sprees in this country.

I'll grant you, though, that gun violence is "sexier" than other types. Ergo, it gets more media play, as do school shootings because they're societally less acceptable than other types of killing.

But the weapon is not irrelevant, except to the dead and the grieving. Dead is dead, and the type of weapon doesn't change that. But the one functional difference between guns and other weapons is, obviously, with a gun you don't have to actually confront your victim(s). Knives, chains, metal knuckles, etc. require the assailant to get close and wreak havoc one victim at a time, whereas when armed with a firearm he or she can take out many people in a matter of seconds. This allows time for counter-action to be taken. It also allows the shooter to protect him/herself, as in the "Clock Tower Massacre" in 1966 at the University of Texas, Austin.

And I'll reiterate: Only one person in this thread has advocated banning guns. I'm on record as being opposed to that. Guns do have a place in society. I don't agree with it, but that doesn't make it wrong.

Now — if you want to "address the reasons why people are this violent in the first place" — well, you might as well address the reasons people take drugs, too. Yeah, that'll stop it.

[Oeditpus Rex]

48. You misinterpret the point

I haven't seen anyone say or imply in this thread that we need to "get rid of guns." The point is how easy they are to get.

And if you think a 10-day waiting period and a background check qualify as "difficult" — Jeebus, it's harder than that to rent a house.

[skipos]

60. "You misinterpret the point"

"The point is how easy they are to get."

I am all for making them hard to get.

[Oeditpus Rex]

68. Then why did you make Your post

about taking them away?

[skipos]

77. See post 81. nt

[Oeditpus Rex]

89. Like I said

I may not agree with him. In this case, I don't.

[stellanoir]

31. "Ray guns don't vaporize Zorbonians. . .

Zorbonians vaporize Zorbonians."

-Gary Larson

No seriously though. This is sick, twisted, and the product of a culture gone mad with sex and violence.

Some culture of life. . .torture, no rights, the indefinite suspension of habeas corpus, wherein "brought to justice"=death.

Blessings on the souls of those young innocents though.

[deathdog]

97. Vaporizers do....?

[fujiyama]

125. I don't think sex has anything to do with this

Europe can be accused of having "gone mad with sex", but they don't have this sort of violence. It's the way we look at everything including TV censorship. If a film gets censored on US TV it's likely because of sex. In Europe, it's the violence. After all, remember the Janet Jackson uproar.

[CabalPowered]

39. Here's the kicker. They're trying to kill the Safe Schools Program

right now. The WH budget has zeroed out the money for safe schools in the last three years but the senate always reinstates funding. This time they've setup a committee. I encourage all DUers to contact DoEd, your Senators and Reps, and tell them that we need MORE, not LESS money for Safe and Drug Free Schools (SDFS).

http://www.ed.gov/about/bdscomm/list/sdfscac/index.html

Email here: [e-mail]

[thirdpower]

44. Ah Yes..

Emotional rhetoric and constant insults repeated endlessly is the way to go.

[Redstone]

49. So I suppose that dead children are a BETTER way to go?

Redstone

[thirdpower]

50. Like I said...

Anything better than screaming "OMG DEAD CHILDREN!!!!" over and over again? Anymore red herrings you'ld like to throw out to stink up the place?

[pliftkl]

73. We aren't serious about dead children

If America was serious about preventing dead children, we could impose a mandatory 20 year prison sentence for drunk driving that would virtually eliminate drunk driving, and save far more children per year than by eliminating all gun murders.

If you really wanted to make sure fewer children died every year, you'd advocate banning swimming pools, which were responsible for drowning 859 children under 14 years of age in 2001. How many kids have been killed in school shootings this year? How does that compare to kids being killed in pools? But do we see even the slightest interest in banning people from building swimming pools? Good luck with rallying the anti-pool movement.

[Redstone]

79. I KNEW this crap was coming. Sorry, that bullshit won't wash. What, you

gonna tell me next that the guy could have killed those kids with a swimming pool as yet another sorry, idiotic assertion?

Redstone

[thirdpower]

83. More Fish???

You're the one claiming to care about "dead children". Or is it only when it involves people using firearms illegally that you care?

[pliftkl]

96. You're missing the point completely

I'm not suggesting that any of those kids would have been murdered by that guy in a swimming pool, and you know it.

My point is that if your objective is "Less dead children", then trying to fix this by imposing stricted handgun control is choosing to COMPLETELY IGNORE the many things that you could do to save FAR MORE lives.

Are children killed with guns? Yes. You want to ban them.
Do children drown in pools? Yes.
Do more children drown in pools than are murdered each year? Yes.

What I don't understand is why you don't advocate banning swimming pools? Why aren't you advocating 20 year sentences for drunk drivers? Either of these would save far more lives than completely eliminating every gun in civilian hands in America.

[Redstone]

124. Broken logic. I've seen it before, and it wasn't valid then, either.

Redstone

[pliftkl]

So do you or don't you support banning swimming pools?

Ok. If the logic is broken, show me. I'm using pretty simple logic, which consists of:

1. You think that dead children is a bad thing. (fact check: your post)
2. Swimming pools kill more children than guns (fact check: CDC)

Logical step:

If your objective is (1), and (2) is true, then wouldn't it make more sense to eliminate swimming pools than to eliminate guns?

If I'm missing here on the logic front, then please educate me. Remember, YOU are the one who's making an argument that seems to be based on "dead children bad".

So seriously, do you think swimming pools should be banned, to save the lives of children?

I don't think the parents of children who drown somehow suffer less than the parents of murdered children. I don't think that drowned children somehow suffer less than children killed with guns.

[Redstone]

165. Still bullshit. And you know it. So don't bother trying to feed me

that nonsense. Children who were alive this morning are dead now, and they didn't drown. Why don't you go try to peddle your swimming-pool bullshit to their parents?

Redstone

[pliftkl]

185. If it's bullshit, call me on it.

Seriously. If there's a flaw in the logic, point it out.

Why don't you find some parents who lost children to a drowning and tell them "Well, at least they didn't get shot to death".

Dead kids are dead kids. But for some reason, you only care about dead kids who are killed by other humans using guns. The logic for this completely escapes me.

[karlrschneider]

232. Welcome to DU and you need to learn something: NEVER use LOGIC

when arguing with someone on a one-track rant. It's as bad as discussing stuff with a Republican.
:D

[LanternWaste]

214. How many of those swimming pools were used in an assault?

How many of those swimming pools were used as a weapon in an assault?

[karlrschneider]

233. So drowned kids are a bit less dead than those who get shot?

Is that the new paradigm?

[pliftkl]

236. None. But dead is dead.

Is a child who drowns in a swimming pool somehow better off than one who's shot?

Do the parents of a child who drowns in a poll suffer less than the parents who lost a child in a shooting?


The problem is that the gun-control lobby uses the "it's for the children" as its trump card, when in fact it's a dishonest card to be playing. The same people who would fully support eliminating guns from our society would be horrified by the thought of sending people to jail for having an illegal swimming pool in their backyard.

[karlrschneider]

241. Bingo. And welcome to DU!

:toast:

[Redstone]

253. I was wrong before. THIS is the stupidest post I've ever seen on DU.

Redstone

[Double T]

46. Our collective society has gone completely insane.............

and WE ALL have some responsibility for allowing it to get this way. Guns are NOT the REAL PROBLEM; I don't own one, don't want to own one and probably will never own one. I do believe in the "right to bear arms" and THAT RIGHT should NOT be taken away. Blaming guns is a cop out for dealing with the real problem.

[Irreverend IX]

69. Two million defensive gun uses per year.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

I think the benefits of access to firearms outweigh the disadvantages considerably.

[Redstone]

72. Absolute, utter bullshit. Two million, my ass. How about some REAL

statistics?

FACT:In 2003 (the most recent year for which data is available), there were 30,136 gun deaths in the U.S:

* 16,907 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),
* 11,920 homicides (40% of all U.S gun deaths),
* 730 unintentional shootings (2% of all U.S gun deaths),
* 347 from legal intervention and 232 from undetermined intent (2% of all U.S gun deaths combined).

-Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2006.

Redstone

[thirdpower]

76. None of which say anything about DGU / year.

Try again. Oh, wait, you put me on ignore since you can't answer anything w/ a reasonable response.

[deathdog]

99. Hi...Newbie here....What's DGU? TIA

[thirdpower]

100. DGU

Defensive Gun Uses.

You're Welcome.

[deathdog]

103. I would NEVER have figured that out on my own!

I'm grateful!

[William Bloode]

139. Of all that only 4% holds water.

If a person truly wants to commit suicide there are a ton of ways to do it. As far as homicides go, same thing. If someone wants to commit murder they will, and they don't need a gun to do it.

As far as mass killing in schools go you don't need guns for that either. A pipe bomb is easily made, and could kill many at once. Lets not forget fire either.

And don't pull that "dead children" crap with me you already wore it out. I in fact find it quite sad you would brandish such a emotionally charged, reactionary term to try and make a point. I find it a tad contrived and theatrical for my taste.

[Irreverend IX]

290. Are you going to address the information in the link I posted?

There's a link on that page to the Kleck's original paper, counterpoints to the paper and Kleck's responses. He's a Democrat and a member of Amnesty International, so if you think he's a right-wing shill you thought wrong.

But... did you even read the link? Or are you just trying to set the DU record for most DEAD CHILDREN in one thread?

[Oeditpus Rex]

88. Eh... they could've just as easily

defended themselves with a knife.

Or a swimming pool.




:popcorn:

[Junkdrawer]

91. Another one today. Those Amish girls came right at that poor guy...

He had no choice but to tie them up and shoot them in the head.

Chalk up another DGU....

[skipos]

78. WHO HERE WANTS TO BAN GUNS?

Just curious.

[Redstone]

81. I do.

Redstone

[thirdpower]

85. Shock.

And leave us defenseless against the Bushites. Good Job.

[karlrschneider]

246. Some DUers have the mindset that one person with a gun can't

stand against the U.S. Army. True, but we can stand against ONE person...ONE at a time.
edit: The Iraqis learned that from the Vietnamese who learned it from SunTzu and others...

[Pavulon]

87. Worked well for Drugs

booze, prostitution and stolen goods. There is NO WAY to remove millions of weapons from our society.

See nyc and washington dc for safe gun free environments.

[slackmaster]

90. But if pressed for details, I'd bet you don't mean all of them

If you are like most people who say they want to ban guns, you mean you only want them in the hands of the government.

[Midlodemocrat]

120. Not me. I want to ban the ammo.

Fat lot of good fucking guns would do people then, huh?

[LanternWaste]

222. As my grandfather said, "Guns don't kill people, bullets do..."

There ya go!

As my grandfather said, "Guns don't kill people, bullets do..."

[deathdog]

102. I do. But then, I'm a silly, pacifist Mennonite

So, what do I know?

[slackmaster]

119. Third-generation recovering Mennonite here

My grandfather quit the religion after the church elders refused to travel from Kansas to Chicago to back up his claim of CO status for World War I. He was sentenced to life in prison along with 41 other young men of faith. Fortunately President Wilson learned of the injustice and pardoned them all right after the Armistice.

My grandfather owned firearms all his life; he just refused to use one in war. Most of it was spent in rural areas.

[deathdog]

153. I grew up around people who kept shotguns at the back door

to scare coyotes away from the livestock (we didn't shoot the coyotes, btw--we shot into the air). There are legitimate uses for shotguns and some other firearms. But what do people need pistols and assault guns for? Not for scaring off coyotes, I'm guessing.

Sorry about your grandfather's experience. My own father was a CO, and found support within the faith community. I don't know why that wouldn't have been the case with your grandfather. I'm also sorry you're still angry about it.

The last person I heard of who was holding a grudge against Anabaptists just shot 6 little girls--three to death. It's not good to hold onto grievances. Especially if you've got a gun.

Just sayin'.

[slackmaster]

159. My grandfather was incarcerated in 1917

Subject line corrected.

The problem back then was the draft board was ignorant. Things were very different in World War I than in subsequent conflicts. Thousands of people got CO status in World War II.

[deathdog]

172. I know, and much of that was because of what happened in WW1

Nations grow and mature, like individuals.

[Demobrat]

141. I do.

Manufacture, sale and ownership.

[brentspeak]

160. I don't. But that's a strawman question.

The Second Amendment guarantees that guns, in general, cannot be banned. Certain kinds of guns can and have been banned in the U.S., but for all practical pursposes, gun owners are not having their right to own a gun undone if they can't legally purchase, say, an AK-47.

I endorse the implementation of sane gun control. There are many pro-gun people who think that "sane gun control" is an oxymoron. I don't. I think that the Brady Law and closing the gun show loophole (still yet to be done) are reasonable and necessary things. Neither, despite some rhetoric from the NRA, will inhibit gun owners' rights. Neither, of course, will completely prevent gun violence, either. Both will lessen needless gun deaths, though.

[proud2BlibKansan]

208. I do

[karlrschneider]

239. Do you want to take away the gun I've owned for 56 years?

...

[RobertSeattle]

84. Tony Snow: Guns don't kill people NAUGHTY PEOPLE DO

:evilgrin:

[Guaranteed]

94. It ain't the guns. Our society is sick.

Millions of our people feel alienated and helpless. The media, in the meantime, teaches them to hate each other.

As Michael Moore noted in Bowling for Columbine, other countries have just the same laws and just as many guns around per capita, and they don't see these kinds of problems. There's something in the psyches of Americans that makes them want to kill each other.

[JuniperLea]

106. Interesting how not one person responded to my post #13

Most everyone wants to play on fear and hate when it comes to this issue instead of dealing with it in terms that are actually doable! Attempting to take away all guns is about as stupid as it gets.



The black market in guns is one of the strongest businesses in the US. I think we waste too much time in the circular argument of gun control. It's an argument that has been going on for decades and there has been no gain in ground on it. Not one inch.

It's time to make stronger laws and very long mandatory jail time for anyone using a gun in a crime. That's "USING" a gun... even threatening with a gun, real or not, should be an automatic MINIMUM of five years. No warnings, no strikes... you get out and use a gun again, it's life. No nonsense.

[Redstone]

114. More bullshit about "other countries." Here are the stats:

FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:

* 373 people in Germany
* 151 people in Canada
* 57 people in Australia
* 19 people in Japan
* 54 people in England and Wales, and
* 11,789 people in the United States

(*Please note that these 1998 numbers account only for HOMICIDES, and do not include suicides, which comprise and even greater number of gun deaths, or unintentional shootings).
- Provided by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

Redstone

[Guaranteed]

.....Yeah. That's the point.

Have you looked at the laws and actual firearm prevalence in those countries....???

You ought to watch Bowling for Columbine again.

[Redstone]

156. well, I guess I have to post these stats again:

FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:

* 373 people in Germany
* 151 people in Canada
* 57 people in Australia
* 19 people in Japan
* 54 people in England and Wales, and
* 11,789 people in the United States

(*Please note that these 1998 numbers account only for HOMICIDES, and do not include suicides, which comprise and even greater number of gun deaths, or unintentional shootings).
- Provided by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

Redstone

[Guaranteed]

209. Reread my first post until you get it.

Those are nearly the same numbers I had in mind before you posted them. You're not getting the point.

[michreject]

227. Your profile shows over 17000 posts

What have you did. Make one post and copy and paste it 17000 times?

[Redstone]

276. "What have you did?" Is English your native language? And do you have

an actual POINT to make here?

Redstone

[thirdpower]

137. I'ld like "Nonsense from the Brady Bunch" for $500 Bob.

[-..__...]

104. Isn't it GREAT that guns are so easy to get in America?

Well, actually it is.

At least it's one of the few remaing rights we have that hasn't been flushed down the toilet.

[deathdog]

107. Tell that to the parents of the three dead Amish girls in PA

[-..__...]

116. That would be dependent...

on whether those parents took the position that guns/gun control was to blame rather than the POS
who committed this crime.

[deathdog]

135. As an official position,

Anabaptists don't consider any human being a POS. So, that leaves the gun as an issue.

[Redstone]

144. Doesn't it? but stop wasting your time; people who value guns more than

human lives aren't going to change their minds. They're more fanatical than the most rabid religious fanatic you'll ever meet.

Redstone

[thirdpower]

147. And more red herrings for dinner...

Too bad making insults and random comments don't back up your "arguement".

[slackmaster]

162. I'd classify it as False Dilemma

i.e. If you don't want to ban guns, you value them more than you do human life.

[survivor999]

108. With ALL the guns around

The surprising thing is that there aren't more... Think about it...

[JuniperLea]

110. Suggesting we do away with all guns is about as stupid as it gets

The guns are there. They will always be there. I don't care if it is little kids, the old lady down the street or soldiers in a war. Shooting people is wrong and it's no more or less wrong because this particular instance killed kids. I really hate all the fear and hate mongering I'm seeing in this thread.

The black market in guns is one of the strongest businesses in the US. I think we waste too much time in the circular argument of gun control. It's an argument that has been going on for decades and there has been no gain in ground on it. Not one inch.

It's time to make stronger laws and very long mandatory jail time for anyone using a gun in a crime. That's "USING" a gun... even threatening with a gun, real or not, should be an automatic MINIMUM of five years. No warnings, no strikes... you get out and use a gun again, it's life. No nonsense.

[Redstone]

118. Funny how "gun control" seems to WORK in other countries:

FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:

* 373 people in Germany
* 151 people in Canada
* 57 people in Australia
* 19 people in Japan
* 54 people in England and Wales, and
* 11,789 people in the United States

(*Please note that these 1998 numbers account only for HOMICIDES, and do not include suicides, which comprise and even greater number of gun deaths, or unintentional shootings).
- Provided by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

Redstone

[Midlodemocrat]

126. God, Redstone. I *heart* you.

I am so upset about these shootings. I recognize that the individuals who committed these acts were not in their right minds, but dammit, if guns weren't so friggin' readily available, people wouldn't be dead.

I have three kids in public schools...two in high school. I can't imagine the terror. Two years ago, my daughter's school was in lockdown because a kid had a 9mm and was planning to shoot another kid. He was disarmed before it became a tragedy, but I was sick to my stomach with worry.

I know people here will say the media has blown this out of proportion, but Dear God, the Amish? The peaceful, God loving Amish?

:cry:

[Redstone]

138. And dead CHILDREN. Little girls. Anybody who says THAT can be "blown

out of proportion" is really, REALLY fucking sick.

Thank you, Midlo.

Redstone

[pliftkl]

179. If you are afraid of your children being killed in school...

..how do control your fear every time they get into a car? Your children are substantially (by a factor of more than 100) more likely to be killed in a car accident than killed by a firearm at school.

What's happening in reaction to the school shooting is basically an emotional reaction that's caused by a (very natural) phobia that humans have of violence by other humans. The problem is, it really is a phobia, and it's out of proportion to the threat it really poses.

[Midlodemocrat]

198. Talk to me when your kid's school has been on lockdown

because there is someone in the building with a gun.

And DO NOT lecture me on phobias. I have a PhD in psych and am well versed.

[thirdpower]

140. Except Russia, Mexico, South America

and how the Swiss, Canadians, and Finns have tens of thousands of murders each year. Oh wait, they don't.

[JuniperLea]

142. You should check into the "kind" of gun control those countries have

And you'll find it's not limitations on firearms as much as strong laws against the use of those arms in crimes.

Brady campaign, huh? Think on that one for a while.

[Redstone]

146. Balls. In Canada, it's limitations on firearms. And gee, shouldn't we be

suspicious of anything from the "Brady Campaign?" He only got shot in the fucking head, is all.

I can see why you think HIS opinion has no validity.

redstone

[thirdpower]

152. So Jim Brady puts out all the statistics?

Really? I guess them being caught adding sherrifs names to petitions, lying about firearms so even the ATF calls them on it, and being indicted for fraud in election contributions makes them perfectly legit, right?

[Redstone]

256. Forgive me for interrupting your Gun Worship.

Redstone

[JuniperLea]

204. Same as here in California

I can't get a gun without a check and a wait.

So you can name one... whoopee. Now how about checking into the laws that put criminals who use guns in the course of a crime, any crime, in jail for a hell of a long time.

Good solid laws like this is what we need, not emotional explosions.

Exactly, Brady was shot in the head. His emotions will lead his battle. We need brains, not emotions on this one. The emotional bullshit has kept anything real from happening on this issue for decades. It gets us nowhere.

[JuniperLea]

148. Let's outlaw penises and cut down on rape... n/t

[Redstone]

170. Well, THERE's a real logical argument, right there.

Thanks for contributing.

Redstone

[thirdpower]

176. Kind of like..

Firearms account for one of the lowest amounts of deaths of children so we should ban them?

[JuniperLea]

190. Makes as much sense as yours, deary. eom

[Sapere aude]

196. No it is not logical.

You make an assumption and have two maybe truthful statements. There is no logic that ties the two truthful statements togther only your assumptions.

[Sapere aude]

189. All cats are animals, dogs are animals, all cats are dogs.

See I proved that cats are dogs.

[stepnw1f]

136. Someday I Wish my Kids Have the Option of Blowing their Faces Off

Afterall... it's freedom to own a product meant to kill.... hummmm...... protect I mean. :sarcasm:

[thirdpower]

145. More injuries and deaths

from organized sports than firearm accidents / year.

[JuniperLea]

149. Let's outlaw penises and cut down on rape... n/t

[stepnw1f]

157. Penis' are Necessary for Procreating... guns are not

At least to some degree since you can get artificially inseminated. Not even close with the analogy there... really bad.

[JuniperLea]

197. You think?

Rape is a violent act that takes away a person's life. Not all penises rape. Not all guns kill.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

282. You can rape with things other than penises, you know......

It has been done with bottles and such .......:puke:

[stepnw1f]

161. Good Reason to NOT Sell More

Don't go there.

[thirdpower]

167. Why not?

The numbers of firearms in US society has increased by 70 million over the last 10 years while accidents and murders have decreased.

No correlation.

[stepnw1f]

199. Whose numbers are those, NRA?

Yes.... let's buy more guns..... there's no correlation.... :crazy:

[thirdpower]

203. Want to move those goalposts a bit more?

Howabout throw in some Ad hominems?

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwmr/sportsed/hrsiflyer2002.pdf

[Redstone]

151. Or getting their faces blown off in school. Every kid should have

that right. Thanks for making a good point. Not that the Gun Worshipers will understand it.

Redstone

[thirdpower]

154. And more of the insults...

I guess that's what happens when reality hits you in the face, eh? Why does Western Europe have more suicides per capita than the US? How about Japan? Did "gun control laws" stop those?

[stepnw1f]

166. Insult? People are Dying You Say Redstone Insults You?

You sure about guns?

[thirdpower]

169. Nice dodge.

People are dying from many things, not just firearms. Emotional rhetoric and insults don't make an arguement.

[stepnw1f]

177. You Should Listen to Yourself Sometime

Because that's what you just did by injecting insult into your argument.

Also, I don't have a problem with people having guns, just stop promoting it... thanks.

[thirdpower]

192. Show me where I've "insulted" someone..

before I was insulted.

Are you saying I should restrict my 1st Amendment rights?

[stepnw1f]

211. You are Mistaken....

"Emotional rhetoric" was what I accused you of. Keep it real.

And you right's are not in dispute here, so don't bother going there. You are just making shit up now.

[thirdpower]

212. I'm "making sh*t up"?

Really? By disputing the "OMG DEAD BABIES" arguement and skewed statistics?

[Redstone]

178. What, is that guy getting rabid? I'm not surprised. Maybe he'll come here

and shoot me to prove his point about the Wonderfulness of Guns.

Redstone

[thirdpower]

186. And more insulting

I guess demonizing the opponent is not only a Freeper quality, is it? Nice that he can't even see these posts.

[stepnw1f]

191. People Who Feel They Need Guns

...must feel they are always in danger. Those using it for sport don't bother me.... but people who promote gun ownership are sick.

[thirdpower]

195. Ahh, and we come to the crux..

It's OK as long as we don't talk about it. Gotcha.

[stepnw1f]

205. Heh... Was I Talking about You?

Do you FEEL you need guns to feel safe? Interesting....

[thirdpower]

210. How cute.

Now we come to the "psychoanalyzing". Of course that's w/ your little belief that people who support firearms are "sick".

[stepnw1f]

219. You Can't Keep an Argument Honest Can You.... tsk, tsk...

This is what you said:
Of course that's w/ your little belief that people who support firearms are "sick".

You equate supporting with promoting.... not me.

In fact I said:

"...but people who promote gun ownership are sick."

Maybe the two are the same for, but at this point I could care less what you think. Guns are a problem in the city and the argument to defend EASY ACCESS to guns is getting old, and a bit transparent. NRA paying you too?

[thirdpower]

224. YAY!!! A semantic arguement..

Now you're claiming that I "defend easy access" and that I'm being paid by the NRA. How nice that you, like the others, just resort to insults and fallacies when you can't support your stance. Why don't you put be on ignore as well? It will make posting nonsense easier for you.

[stepnw1f]

235. Yup... making shit up

sad

[thirdpower]

248. Prove it.

Show me where I've "made sh*t up". Go ahead, I'll wait.

[spoony]

240. Don't bother with them

It's pretty clear they're the ideological opposite of the same coin as *, that is when something bad happens, find a scapegoat and demonize it (Muslims, gun owners, whatever), then insult whoever disagrees and sprinkle in plenty of emotional rhetoric.

[Sapere aude]

168. I just never understand posts like these. Is it some holier than thou

attitude that compels people to write them? You can't prevent a school shooting by taking my gun away. You can lose the country to the right wing this coming November.

Why don't we spend as much time trying to find out why this happened. Maybe we can prevent one by learning from it.

[Redstone]

174. Oh, sure, your guns are going to prevent the right wing from winning

an election.

That's a GOOD one.

Redstone

[thirdpower]

181. And he dodges the ball.

Completely missing the point of the elections for the last 12 years.

[pliftkl]

207. No, pushing Gun Control Legislation will help the right win

Gun owners aren't as conservative as they vote. The problem is that many of them are "1-issue" voters who WILL turn out to defeat candidates who are anti-gun. If the democratic party could drop the anti-gun stance, there's a really voting block that would be available.

As a gun owner, I'd love to vote Democratic, but it's REALLY hard to vote for candidates who make promises to take away my rights to defend my family. Bush came into power as governor of Texas in part because Ann Richards refused to sign a concealed carry law that had wide support in Texas.

[Redstone]

220. Well, if they care more about GUNS than about their country, they're

not much in the way of good citizens, are they?

Redstone

[pliftkl]

242. Why do YOU care more about MY guns than about OUR country?

It works both ways, friend. If you want to hand additional elections to a party that is bankrupting the American middle class and pursuing a disastrous foreign policy because you want to stop me from owning guns, how much are you caring about your country? Politics is the art of compromise.

[Redstone]

258. Good job of proving my point. Couldn't have done it better myself.

Redstone

[brentspeak]

221. What bothers me is the portrayal of the Democratic party as the "anti-gun"

party. I don't mean to point fingers at you, but it seems clear that even some Democratic rank-and-file have bought the completely undeserved line that the Democrats are opponents of gun owners and their rights. Things like the Brady Law, for instance, a law endorsed by the majority of Democratic congressmen at the time of passage, don't inhibit the rights of gun owners at all. And many of the other gun control laws on the books, effective or not, don't hinder gun owners, either.

As for concealed carry -- I guess it depends on the state. If handguns are already so widespead and easily available for Texans to begin with, then I suppose a shall-issue law isn't necessarily going to make the gun violence problem a whole lot worse. The thing I advocate most -- and it's an opinion that I'll never change -- is that local police forces have the final say whether or not local residents can own a handgun. That practice has worked great in NJ, the vast majority of residents can purchase a gun, and (outside the cities) gun violence is almost non-existent.

[proud2BlibKansan]

171. Oh thank you

My thoughts exactly.

[sendero]

188. Oh yeah..

.. let's just outlaw them. Worked for booze. Worked for pot. Worked for heroin.

Jesus christ, you folks with the simple 2-cent solutions for everything just amaze me. I'm surprised you can reason your way to cooking breakfast.

[greiner3]

193. Why do we hate merica?

[doc03]

200. Yes it is great, that is one Constitutional Right we haven't

been striped of to supposedly make us more safe. The man may have been a law abiding citizen all his life and may have purchased the guns legally I don't think we even know that yet. If that was the case what do we do take everyones right to own firearms just like Bush has taken all our other rights away to keep us safe? Wasn't it Ben Franklin that said if you give up your freedoms for security you deserve neither?


on edit: read #217 on the Republican kneejerk reaction to this.

[brentspeak]

201. I don't know enough about how these psychos got their guns to

say that sane gun control laws would have prevented them from obtaining their guns in the first place. There are definitely times, though, when certain kinds of rational gun control could have prevented these kinds of massacres. Most recent example that comes to mind is the California post office massacre from last year. The killer was a New Mexico resident who legally allowed to purchase her guns from a New Mexico pawn shop, even though she had had several bizarre incidents indicating she should never have been allowed even a water pistol (walking around town late at night, naked and in a daze; threatening people, etc.).

In New Jersey, local police forces have the final say whether or not residents can own a handgun. Residents don't need police approval to purchase longarms, of course, but they still have to be queried by the police when getting their licenses, etc. Reminds people in an up-front, personal, face-to-face manner that they are expected to handle their weapons responsibly. Not coincidentally, NJ has a low gun violence rate.

[slackmaster]

215. Most likely they aren't psychos when they buy the guns

Anyone who gets adjudicated incompetent, or committed to a psychiatric institution, should have their firearms taken from them.

Here in California we just recently got a change in the law to allow police to search the home of a person who is the subject of a restraining order for domestic violence, if the plaintiff on the RO reports that the person is armed. They still have something like 48 hours to dispose of firearms, in order to avoid a 4th Amendment issue.

In New Jersey, local police forces have the final say whether or not residents can own a handgun.

That opens the door to discriminatory treatment. IMO all qualifications for gun permits should be objective.

[brentspeak]

226. We've gone over this before on the "Guns" board

How many incidents have there been in NJ of handgun applicants being unfairly discriminated against? And even if that situation did occur, it would be impossible for a local police force to get away with it, because NJ law allows any rejected handgun license applicant adaquate appeals to higher state authorities. The application process is transparent.

[slackmaster]

231. The fact that discrimination is possible is bad enough for me

And even if that situation did occur, it would be impossible for a local police force to get away with it, because NJ law allows any rejected handgun license applicant adaquate appeals to higher state authorities. The application process is transparent.

It sounds like you are saying the system ulitmatly has objective criteria. What, then, is the point of allowing local PD to have any say in it? In California, eligibility is checked by the state Department of Justice. It's very uniform.

[brentspeak]

238. Having the local police force approve local resident

handgun licenses ensures that everyone is given personal, face-to-face scrutiny. The woman in New Mexico who bought her guns was known to be a crazy woman, and though there were police reports on some of her behavior, under NM and even California law, those reports would not have triggered some kind of fail-safe action on the part of a basic checklist of rejection/acceptance criteria at whatever central database they use in California.

That wouldn't stand in NJ. Reports of the woman walking around town naked and in a daze? Reports of her picking unprovoked arguments with strangers at the grocery store? If those reports are confirmed, a NJ police force would do the right thing and not issue the woman a handgun license. And then how could she have obtained the handguns she would have used as she did at a NM pawn shop? The pawn shop wouldn't sell them to her. Unless you're some gang member with connections who lives in Paterson or Newark, it's almost impossible to illegally obtain a firearm in NJ.

We've had some post office shootings in NJ, but that particular post office massacre in California could not have happened in NJ, unless some guns magically appeared in the woman's hands.

[petronius]

249. I'm not sure I'm convinced of that

it would be impossible for a local police force to get away with it, because NJ law allows any rejected handgun license applicant adequate appeals to higher state authorities.

This is a tangential example, but there was a very interesting article in the NY Times last week about the huge number of abuses that occur in the local courts in NY, mainly in smaller, rural towns. (I can find a link, but I won't take the time now since you may already know the article I'm referring to.) The higher state courts, who nominally have oversight, are too overwhelmed to adequately supervise the local judges, or even respond effectively to complaints. I wonder if the same problem wouldn't apply to the local police handling of handgun applications - i.e., while there may be an official appeal process, I wonder how well it functions in practice...

[brentspeak]

277. So far, there hasn't been a problem

And the licensing procedure has been in practice for years.

[doc03]

217. Such a knee-jerk reaction! The CBS News Free

Speech segment tonight had an obvious Republican,Brian Rohrbaugh, a father of one of the Columbine victims and he blames the school shootings on taking prayer out of schools, abortion and terrorism.

[slackmaster]

218. Yet another way to politicize tragic events

And avoid blaming the people who are actually responsible for the crimes.

[deathdog]

229. Wow, what an idiot.

I wonder how many guns he owns.

[hollowdweller]

234. Blame the shooter and his community not the guns

If the teacher had had a big hogleg under her dress she could have pulled it nailed the bastard.

Given how many guns are in our society right now banning them will do nothing. There's enough in circulation that we'll have them for years.

It's kind of like abortion. We need to do things to reduce the incidence of gun crime, poverty, insanity, lack of security that don't involve banning guns, just like we need sex education, birth control, community support and aid to pregnant women to reduce abortion without banning it.

[Redstone]

261. I was waiting for that one. Let's give EVERYONE a gun! That'll sure solve

the problem of dead children.

Wonderful thinking.

Redstone

[hollowdweller]

264. Sounds good to me.

I may be wrong, but if I was setting in that classroom when that guy came thru the door I believe I would have rather had a pistol in my pocket than nothing.

[LanternWaste]

243. I'm just as stupid as everyone else.

Something's wrong here. Seriously, seriously wrong. There's a glorification of violence that we can't help but step in every day. There's a glorification of firearms that helps us guys validate our penis sizes. There's a smaller and smaller value being put on life and civility. So many people drawing lines in the sand and daring the "other" side to step over it. It's a volatile and dangerous mix.

The block buster movies follow the same generic plot (12 explosions, 23 deaths by gunshot, five boobshots and the innocent who "matures" by killing someone else) wrapped in different faces, costumes and locales. The currently top ranked movie is inane, banal and wholly without merit.

This certainly *isn't* the typical "wishing for the good old days", but something's happened to us in the past thirty years. Something bad. We entertain ourselves with first person shooters on our PC's after school (and after work, too). We have such little tolerance for "them". We enjoy watching "our guys" verbally trash "their guys" on the cable news editorials. We call people "stupid" for having faith in a God and we call other people stupid for not having faith in a God.

I'm just as stupid as everyone else. I see the effects but not the cause. I see the arguments and take sides and yell as loudly as the rest. I raise my fist with righteous indignation for my "right" to own a big screen TV, cable, internet, stereos and a bazillion CD's while some poor eight year old bastard is dying of starvation; and I watch him slowly die while saying to myself, "well, I voted for the good guys... I did what I could do. Flip the channel, dearest; while I hit reset and try to beat my previous high score".

I'm just as stupid as everyone else because I don't know why we are who we are.

(But I'll never own a firearm, 'cause I'm happy with my penis size thank you very much)

[Beelzebud]

244. Ban men and guns!!!!!!11

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

245. You sound a bit like Dobson.

Dobson's blaming the Foley scandal on the oversexualization of America. You're blaming school shootings on the overguninization of America. (yes, that's a word, look it up.)

[Redstone]

260. Yeah, right. I dare speak against the Sacred Gun, and I'm Dobson.

Redstone

[reyd reid reed]

247. Literally made me feel ill when I heard about it.

Bailey was bad enough. Then I heard about the one in Wisconsin and cried. This morning...

Words can't express. Guns are way too accessible.

On a side (and possibly somewhat trivial) note, Bailey's football team, which is 4-0, was scheduled to play on Friday -- is playing tomorrow. At first it struck me as too soon, but the more I think about it, the more I've gotta hand it to them for putting one foot in front of the other again.

It's going to be tough but in the end it might be good for them. Cathartic somehow.

[karlrschneider]

250. What is a sensible and reasonable way to make them less accessible

particularly to those who should't have them? Everyone agrees that's a good idea...how would it be done?

[reyd reid reed]

263. That's just it. At this point, honestly, I don't have any answers.

It seems like every effort has backfired and the NRA takes issue with the rest of it. No matter what legislation is passed or what safeguards are put in place, those are going to be most effective against the people who are the least likely to do things like this.

I was raised around guns; my father is a collector and I was taught to respect them. Many people aren't these days, it seems. Got a beef? Shoot someone. Period.

That's just WRONG.

Period.

[karlrschneider]

271. I mostly ignore the NRA...not so much for their position generally

but because I think they're mostly a bunch of single-issue idiots. I've owned guns since I was 8 years old (56 years ago) when my dad gave me a .410 shotgun. I taught gun safety classes for the Tulsa Police Department and got a ribbon for marksmanship in US Air Force Basic Training (yeah they actually had
small arms training...rudimentary but the guns were real).

Recently, Niemoller's comments have wormed their way into my head more and more ("first they came for
the trade unionists...") and I'm glad I have, probably, at least the ability to defend myself against
what I'm seeing as a potential threat by my own government...not any kind of major force assault but
if they kill me I might just have a chance to even the one-on-one score.

Banning guns isn't a feasible option, either politically or practically - they can't be 'un-invented'
any more than marijuana can. Nobody lives forever, no matter what the fundies say...as in most things,
timing is everything.
ks

[Scout]

268. first, stop making more of them n/t

[Catchawave]

251. 24/7 news exaggerates the problem,

because they need *ratings* and nothing like a school shooting to ramp them up! How exploitive of the MSM, and turning disturbed people into anti-heroes :cry:

I personally don't like guns, but I don't blame them for our society's ills either. We just need to start fighting those "ills" here, not "over there", and protect our children from harm in what should be the safest environment!

I couldn't believe some creep on one of the news channels today called it "home grown jihadists" are the problem :mad:

On edit: if there were no guns, he would have probably found another way :(

[BlackVelvet04]

254. Redstone, I have the utmost respect for you

and almost always agree with you. But, this is one time I disagree. I personally think it is imperative we have the right to own guns and I always have. I haven't kept up with the news at all the last couple of days due to some personal things that needed my attention so I don't know if the shootings were perpetrated by adults or kids. If it was kids I have to wonder how they got their hands on a gun.

I have respect for guns and realize the potential for disaster but many things carry a danger. I feel for the families affected by the shootings but I can't condemn the right to own a gun.

[Redstone]

259. OK. We can disagree on this one. And agree on others.

Redstone

[Redstone]

262. Boy, nothing like daring to speak out against the Sacred Gun to attract a

stalker or two. Guess I'll have to keep my blasphemy to myself.

As will those dead girls' parents, if they know what's good for them, yes?

Redstone

[hollowdweller]

265. Gun Control is one of the reasons we lost congress and the presidency 2x

I think if we get the Democrats back in the economy will pick up, mental health and anger management treatment will be more available and affordable people will have better jobs and we will have less of this stuff.

On the other hand if we start pushing gun control again welcome back GOP and wars, korporate kulture and moral legislation.

[Redstone]

266. Like I said.

Redstone

[BlackVelvet04]

267. I really had to think about your use of the term

"sacred gun" and ask myself is that true? Are guns sacred to me? And the answer is no....but freedom is. Darlin' freedom is dangerous and messy. The argument you are using is very much like the argument that we should be willing to give up freedoms and privacy because of 3000 killed on 9/11.

I bought a gun when my life was threatened and I will continue to own a gun. I found I couldn't depend on the police, I had to depend on myself.

I truly, truly feel for the families of these children. What a horrible, useless, disaster and yet I still have to come down on the side of freedom.

[Redstone]

272. No, you know I wasn't talking about YOU. I'm sure you've read the thread,

so you know who the stalkers are. They've been following me around other threads, too.

Redstone

[BlackVelvet04]

273. I didn't think you were calling me a stalker, but your post made me think

about why I feel the way I do about owning a gun. Thinking is a good thing. :-)

[Redstone]

274. Yes, it is. We'll talk more later. Feel free to PM if you want to. Talking

is a good thing, too.

redstone

[-..__...]

270. Fantasize, much?

You post on a public forum about a controversial subject in a inflammatory and accusing manner and you expect high-fives all around?

Here's a novel idea... :think:

If you don't like the responses, stick to a subject that everyone can agree on.

Like cute cuddly kittens....

(see sig pic)

[Redstone]

275. Prove my point, much?

Redstone

[moondust]

278. Guns don't kill people.

They only make it really easy for people to kill people.

[Beausoir]

279. Why do we have to continue to suffer at the hands of the gun nuts?

Why are we forced to watch our children be slaughtered by guns?

Why is the NRA more important in this country than our children?

[Redstone]

281. I don't know. It seems to be almost a religious thing to some people.

Redstone

[Beausoir]

280. Edit: dupe

[NaturalHigh]

284. At least my guns will protect my family in our home.

There are plenty of shitheads who use knives to kill people too. Do we ban all knives?

Anyone who wants to get a gun can get one. I don't see how preventing us law-abiding types from having them will do society much good.

[Redstone]

288. Another canned reply, supplied by the NRA.

Can't just ONE of you Gun People at least say something I haven't already heard, verbatim, 500 times?

You're gettiing boring.

Redstone

[moondust]

289. Question.

Do you believe these and other senseless killings would occur very often if the perpetrators had to use knives or baseball bats or their bare hands?

The perpetrator of these Amish crimes was also apparently a law-abiding citizen--until today. Happens all the time.

[Renew Deal]

287. Bullshit

I thought there would be some substance to your post, but unfortunately there isn't. So Bullshit.

[proud patriot]

291. I'm locking this thread

flamebait