Enough of the mob mentality

[canetoad]

There is an elemental bloodlust running through this board the last few day that I find disturbing. I can understand glee at the fall of a political opponent. I can understand disgust at adults who abuse children for sexual gratification. I cannot get my head around the disinformation that is being picked up and carried, magnified out of all proportion, about Foley.

Shoulder your flame throwers, fling your best thought terminating cliches at me, I have my asbestos knickers on, and am intent on restoring some reason to this hysteria.

Foley's emails seem to be undisputed. Apart from the nebulous description of 'creepy', they are absolutely nothing. Nada. They would not stand up in court if you were to bring pedophillia charges.

The Chat/IM log is a different thing. First up, stop confusing this log with the emails. It is an entirely different thing. Emails have headers that can be traced. As far as I can see, the log is something that I could have produced in notepad in ten minutes. Yep, I could make up a log that, for example had canetoad and karlshneider discussing how to murder a DU moderator. It is truly facile to take at face value that these logs are genuine. For goodness sake, maf54 talks to xxKenLaynexx? Does that not even, in the frenzy of wishful thinking, ring some warning bells? (forgive me for using you as an example KS, but I hope you understand)

This log surfaced on this site http://stopsexpredators.blogspot.com/2006/09/shocking-emails.html
The site has only been in existence since July. Author unknown. Nice scoop for an unknown site. Just think how hard Raw and TO has to work to get and keep credibility.

Yes, Foley resigned. May or may not be an admission of guilt. It may also be the fact that shit, once flung sticks badly.

The can of venomous adders this scandal has opened up has more far reaching effects than many of you realize. Oh yeah, I forgot that the Republicans do it, so why not the Democrats? In the space of one week the terms 'gay man' and 'pedophile' have been linked a zillion times. Your gloating will come back to bite you on the bum.

I'm asking you to excercise those grey cells, cool down, think before you let emotion take over and most importantly, uphold the values that you would expect for yourself; a fair trial, an accuser and a cool calm evaluation of the evidence.

[yorgatron]

1. Foley is a chickenhawk,

the republicans have both kinds...

[lvx35]

2. Dude.

The HEAD of the caucus for missing and exploited children is a PEDOPHILE. Its NOT something that somebody made up in notepad, its the LOGS from AOL. What part of this is hard for you to understand?

[canetoad]

4. Then prove it to me

and I'd ask you not to call me 'dude' because my politics or ethics have nothing to do with the frenzied exhibition I have seen here the last few days.

Show me where the logs came from. Hard copy, not heresay.

[lvx35]

6. Why show you?

I can make up logs in textpad about any politician, including Bush, and the librul media will start reporting them, won't they? (since none of this is based on fact, just textpad)

So how about this:

Bush: Hi, I am GWB, and I am AOL trying to destroy the world.
Guy: Really, OH NO!!!!!!!!!

Look see, I now have evidence that GWB is out to destroy the world if I only copy this into textpad.

Wake up.

[canetoad]

16. So, do you have more info on the logs

Than is available? Please post it.

Otherwise you have illustrated my point very nicely.

[Lex]

19. First you post your proof that they are forged.

The IM logs are perfectly believeable in light of the emails the creep sent.

[canetoad]

Believable

Because you want them to be believeable. Spend a moment looking at it the way a judge would, if presented with this evidence in court. Would he not want more details?

[Lex]

23. Do you think that the evidence we have now is all there is?

Do you think that by the time it gets to court the FBI will not have the proper authentication from the ISPs and so forth?

OF COURSE they will.

[canetoad]

38. All fine.

If and when it happens. I'd be the first to call him a sleazy bastard. Until then, show me the money.

[Torgo Johnson]

44. The e-mails by themselves...

confirm the fact the Foley is a sleazy bastard.

[tblue]

27. Why is this guy defending Rep. Foley (EX-Rep. Foley)?

[lvx35]

30. My question is...

Why is he defending him more than even the republicans, who want to bury him???

[lvx35]

28. No, I have not.

I see you have posted some 800 times, and not been booted, so I will assume you are a Democrat. But let me tell you, this is a bad bad call you are making here, friend. I am a computer scientist with 13 years experience in the field, and the idea that this scandal was caused because somebody fabricated some false logs in notepad is just plain wrong. If that's all it took, every member of congress would be in trouble, it would take anybody 5 minutes to get anybody in trouble. This is OBVIOUSLY not what happened here. The logs came from AOL, to the FBI, after complaints were made, and the information from the FBI investigation caused the guy to step down. I mean, jesus, even the republicans aren't saying what you are saying, because they know the FBI has the evidence. If what you are saying was true, or even plausible, the pukes would be laughing it off. But they aren't because they KNOW they are caught. So let go, its over. Its ugly, documented, and absolutely true.

[Lex]

33. Exactly. nt

[canetoad]

42. Then show me

the provenance of the logs. Show me something that proves they were written by Foley, not by someone, anyone using the nick maf54. If and when this is proved beyond reasonable doubt to have originated from Foley, I will believe it. Not before.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SeattleGirl]

46. Jeebus!!!! I sure as hell hope you aren't a detective or something.

I can just see it: you get called to the scene where a dead body was found, someone who died of gunshots or stab wounds. What is your response to that going to be? "Show me that these are REALLY gunshot wounds or stab wounds. I don't see a gun or a knife. Until YOU can show ME the gun or the knife, AND the person who supposedly did this, I cannot accept that this person is really dead, nor can I accept that the person was shot or stabbed."

:eyes:

[Bluebear]

49. So he resigned for...nothing? nt

[lvx35]

56. Why should special evidence be shown to you?

If this were something faked by notepad, it wouldn't be a widely accepted thing that's threatening republicans. Its real, and the truth is out there.

[annabanana]

63. What does "dude" have to do with

"politics or ethics"?

[canetoad]

61. I hope you are not saying I have a fluency problem

or a comprehension one.

The emails are traceable through AOL. The logs are anonymous. The logs and the emails are two entirely different issues.

What part of this is hard for you to understand?

[MrScorpio]

3. Strike now, while the iron is hot

Elections are just around the corner

[canetoad]

5. i understand that particular motivation

However, by linking gay + pedophile, far more damage is being done. The Right could turn this on it's head while you gloat.

[MrScorpio]

8. Remove the gay, go with the pedophile

Emphasize abuse of power, with a dash of enabling

That's a winning formula!

[ruiner4u]

17. thank you...

its fun to watch the GOP implode, but the gay bashing needs to stop.. and by gay bashing i mean the jokes, "they dont want bent over pages", "boys pants half off", and so on..

this just gives those sick wingers more ammo so they can say gay=pedo.

[BuyingThyme]

7. There's no difference between IMs and emails.

[MrScorpio]

9. Bingo!

Inappropriate communication is just that, regardless of the medium

[canetoad]

13. Is that also irregardless

of whether it's forged?

[Lex]

15. No evidence exists whatsoever that it's forged.

The IMs are plausible in light of the email content.

[canetoad]

18. And no evidence exists whatsoever

That the logs are genuine.

[Lex]

21. The logs are perfectly believeable in light of the emails.

It's not like the emails and the logs don't dove-tail in a way that is plausible.

[MrScorpio]

20. There is no forgery

That's only an argument that will posited by the pervert enablers and swallowed by the suckers.

They've already stipulated to their veracity by accepting the resignation.

[tblue]

34. AS IF the Republicans wouldn't be SCREAMING 'FORGERY' all over the media!

Perhaps Canetoad has a bad history with IM messages. Me thinks he protests too much.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

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[MrScorpio]

57. If I wanted to say that you're a pervert enabler

I would flat out call you one.

I am not.

The problem I see here is that, by making this argument of yours, in the face of all the contravening evidence, you are inadvertently doing the work of the pervert enablers for them.

That would be a mistake.



About the redneck crack... poor form.

[canetoad]

10. Yes there is

An email (not a printout) can be examined and verified. We have been presented with a so called IM or Chat log. Which? Who knows. All you see is what is passed around on the internets. The computers need to be examined. I would accept those 'logs' as genuine the minute the computers were forensically investigated.

Also, the emails were purported to have been sent prior to one year ago. I'd like to see some verification of this chat log before I make up my mind.

[MrScorpio]

12. If the IM's are corroborated, that blows your argument out of the water

The resignation says it all

[canetoad]

24. No, the resignation says nothing

Except Foley was in a corner with no other way out.

If and when the logs are proven veracious, I will accept it.

[MrScorpio]

35. I disagree

Being outed because you're gay and resigning over it is ridiculous. Anyone who does that is a self-hating idiot.

The point behind Foley's guilt is that he abused his office by taking advantage of children that he has authority over.

Foley and the Republican leadership understand the gravity of that kind of abuse and its fall-out.

Why won't you?

[SeattleGirl]

14. I am curious as to why you are trying to defend a pedophile.

Did you not hear that the page class of 2001 was WARNED about Foley? TOLD to stay away from him? Why would they do that if there was nothing wrong with him? (And I am not referring to him being gay -- I don't give a flying freak about that.)

And the bigger question you should ask yourself is, WHY wasn't this guy tossed out on his ass if they felt they had to warn the pages about him?

Again, why are you defending a pedophile?

[canetoad]

26. Aha. Had to happen within 20 posts.

Why am I defending a pedophile? Your words not mine. I'm defending everyones right to face their accuser and be granted fair trial.

[SeattleGirl]

29. Oh for heaven sakes!!

You accuse us of having a mob mentality, and yet here you are, jumping from this story just hitting the news to practically accusing everyone who doesn't think like you do of having bulldozed this guy underground.

And OF COURSE "Why are you defending a pedophile" ARE MY WORDS! Jeebus, there is nothing worse than illogical logic.

[Lex]

11. Are you saying that IM logs can't be traced?

Really? I didn't know that.

[canetoad]

36. I didn't say that at all

But an anonymous transcript posted on the net cannot be traced.

[Lex]

39. And you think that's the extent of the evidence. Just what's on the net?

You don't think anyone at Foley's office has thought to question their veracity otherwise?

[tenshi816]

52. I believe IM logs can be traced.

I also believe Foley wasn't aware of that and that's why he used more sexually agressive language while instant messaging than he did in his e-mails. To me, that means he knows what he was doing was wrong and he was trying to cover himself if any of the boys ever came forward. He didn't expect his words to come back and haunt him in the way they have.

[leftofthedial]

22. I believe what he did

emails OR IM

constitutes a felony in Florida

[tblue]

25. Sorry, just because a behavior is universally repugnant, does not mean

that the masses of people who object to it are necessarily a 'mob.' And an unreasonable one.

Oh I am plenty cool. But I think you dismiss the gravity of this allegded behavior a little too readily. You must not have children. The man is a pedophile, and the Republican House leadership protected him instead of the children who were entrusted to their care. I saw one of those young former pages interviewed about it. I have a real hard time belieiving he was lying.

Of course we'll let the law run its course. We have no choice, and we really have no power to alter the mass media coverage of this scandal. You think we're the ones putting this on CNN?

This is just the kind of backpedaling that Democrats get pummelled over year after year after year. We lay low, we fold, we equivocate, we compromise, we apologize, we make nice (not US at DU, but the Dem establishment). What has it gained us?

[canetoad]

31. It's gained you the right

to sustain moral superiority over rednecks and pedophiles.

You twisted my words. I at no time said pedophillia is anything less than repugnant. I question the so called evidence in this instance.

[tblue]

41. Yes, I'll accept I have moral superiority over pedophiles

I'm wondering why YOU feel you have no moral superiority over pedophiles.

Oh, I'm sorry. I forget I'm dealing with someone who wants to nitpick every word.

Of course the man should face his accuser and have his day in court. Who said he shouldn't? Doesn't mean he didn't do a bad thing, children were warned about him, and there is evidence he asked a minor child his penis size.

[CarbonDate]

73. It's gained us the right to lose.

Moral superiority is worthless without the power to enact it. In this case, the case is pretty strong, as is the evidence. We get to have our cake and eat it too: morally superior and we have a bloody shirt to wave on an election year. Doesn't get much better than that. Unless, of course, you're afraid to go on the attack. In that case, you don't belong in politics. It's an ugly, ugly business.

[canetoad]

32. It's gained you the right

to sustain moral superiority over rednecks and pedophiles.

You twisted my words. I at no time said pedophillia is anything less than repugnant. I question the so called evidence in this instance.

[sandnsea]

37. Real live human beings have been interviewed

They say exactly what was said in those IM's. This is going to get a whole lot uglier in the days to come. Unless some Dem gets caught up in it too, this is going to keep the entire right home on election day. This is huge and the anger is getting way bigger than it was in '94. No need for anybody to be throwing water on this fire, it's going to be an inferno.

[Torgo Johnson]

40. If the instant messages were forged...

Mark Foley's lawyers would be all over it by issuing press releases that the IM's were made up. The fact that they are silent while this is being spread althroughout the media speaks volumes. It is very possible that AOL still has logs from this on their servers and if so, it has probably already been verified by AOL. At the very least, AOL would be able to confirm the screen name matches up to Foley.

[SeattleGirl]

43. Plus, his attorney would not have been on TV today, blaming

it all on alcoholism. Maybe the asshole IS an alcoholic, but being an alcoholic does not lead to pedophilia. A pedophile is a pedophile, regardless of whether or not they are an alcoholic.

[Sleepless In NY]

51. canetoad the originals were picked up the FBI

they then informed the republican leadership that the emails Foley were sending were inappropriate & required attention. Of course we know they were ignored and the rest is history...what is it that you find so hard to believe?

[canetoad]

55. Ya Sleepless, the emails

I think many people are getting confused about the emails and the logs. The emails are a given. They were first brought to light a year or so ago. It's the logs that worry me. They only appeared on the net on 22 September, at a very small time blog, anonymous, and running for less than 3 months.

I mean, if you held such explosive stuff, wouldnt you be contacting Raw, or TruthOut or even DU?

[canetoad]

53. Good points

I guess the first step is deciding if a law has been broken and what charges should be laid.

The rest will take care of itself if the evidence is there. If no charges are laid, we must take the logs with a huge pinch of salt.

[NJCher]

58. other corroborating evidence

It is very possible that AOL still has logs from this on their servers and if so, it has probably already been verified by AOL.

Excellent point.

The assertion of the OP is something only a desperate, back-to-the-wall defense attorney would use and even then, probably not use at all if there is a possiblity the logs were sitting on a server.

In addition, there is the question of how much good questioning the logs would do when there is other corroborating evidence. The point of the OP is "out there" when these factors are considered.





Cher

[MrScorpio]

50. This whole thing reeks of repug talking points

There's no evidence to support your argument at all

[canetoad]

59. I agree. Just my own two eyes

and ears. A lot of experience and a mind boggled at the extents to which both human nature and corruption can reach.

I'm raising questions that bother me. I'm not American but I watch it like a hawk, as I do the politics of most countries. I'm not surprised that here at DU this scandal has been taken as a 'gimme'. Too rich and juicy not to gloat.

Exactly. There is no real evidence to support my original post, but you were wrong to call it an argument. I posted observations, questions, a bit of hubris I admit. I was asking for evidence and it seems that was the wrong thing to do, as in subsequent posts I've been accused of protecting pedophiles and worse.

On slow news days GD spends most of it's hours bemoaning what has become of America. But if an outsider points it out, lol, well all I can say this is the war on canetoad.

It's been said Americans spend a lot of time trying to understand themselves, but very little time trying to understand others. Can't post a link or reference, and I may have screwed the quote up completely, but it applies.

I wish nothing more than fairness for all people. It defines who I am.

[Bluebear]

60. So it's a case of Democrats not understanding Australians?

"It's been said Americans spend a lot of time trying to understand themselves, but very little time trying to understand others. Can't post a link or reference, and I may have screwed the quote up completely, but it applies."

:crazy:

[canetoad]

66. You must have checked up

but no, didn't mean that.

We are not as politically divided as you are. Sure there is a bit of dirt thrown by extremists on both sides of the fence, but in general we have a far more pragmatic view of political divide. I honestly don't know or care which way my neighbours vote, all I know is they are good neighbours. Conservatives seem to be mildly tolerant and accepting of batty left wing demos and marches, lefties can lay shit on their latte sipping aspirant neighbours.

I've learned a lot from being on this board. Probably read it since the beginning, registered in 04 I think and managed to rack up a grand total of about 300 posts. It's a great place to watch Americans, and please don't take that the wrong way. Oz and the world gets served up America through TV and films. You are defined by your media. Oprah, Dr Phil. Fox, Cnn, Judge Judy, Survivor, that rich guy with apprentices. I'm here because I don't believe that every american subscribes to the pulp they serve us. Maybe my expectations are too high, I dunno.

So I guess, you question that line I sorta quoted and I ask you: What do you know about Oz politics, or European, or Thai etc. I see it often on these boards, whenever another country is mentioned, the subject is always brought back to the good ole usa.

If you think i'm wrong, or being hard, please tell. I'd like to know what you think.

[Bluebear]

69. I don't know much in detail about Oz politics . . .

I will admit that. Having said that, I do follow world affairs closely. What is occuring in each country per se I don't know at any given time, but if significant news happens I follow it with interest.

I also speak 4 languages, I am fascinated by international cuisines and customs, and basically think EVERYONE would benefit from lookingf beyond their own borders.

>>Conservatives seem to be mildly tolerant and accepting of batty left wing demos and marches, lefties can lay shit on their latte sipping aspirant neighbours.<<

It USED to be like that here as well.

[canetoad]

71. You can never go back either

I'm hoping here in Oz we delay the inevitable. The pervasive nature of AmCulture will make it impossible to avoid, but I hope we can keep our sense of humour alive a few years longer.

We only just have exposés of conservative religious groups trying to excert political influence. The stories make mainstream TV, generally the next day they are ridiculed all over the place.We just tend to be not as instantly reactive as you are. I think it's a good thing. Things need to be mulled over in the collective consciousness.

I don't deny there are fierce RW elements at work, I imagine they are US inspired. They tend to still get laughed down here. Guess it was the same there 10 yrs ago.

[MrScorpio]

64. A reply... May I?

One... You have to admit that speculating on the veracity of those IMs, when in fact their veracity have been stipulated to by all sides is pretty provocative.

Not, to call you a troll, but trolls come around here all the time to pull that particular stunt. Its even more tiresome when one of our own pull it.

That, in itself around these parts, is an invitation to an argument. One, that I gladly join.


Two... The attractiveness of the tinfoilness of this situation is attractive, for sure. Everyone here prefers to focus on the prevalent facts. To do otherwise, especially using speculations that would only be employed by an adversary is highly disruptive and does not serve our purpose to get to the truth of the matter.

Third... Okay, you were spanked. It happens. Realize that we did it out of love. Otherwise, you'd be pushing up granite by now.

Forth... The sarcasm smiley. That would have saved you a lot of trouble.

Peace

[canetoad]

75. Such a delicious post

I'd be silly not to dissect and respond.



One... You have to admit that speculating on the veracity of those IMs, when in fact their veracity have been stipulated to by all sides is pretty provocative.

Canetoad: I don't have to admit anything. I believe the emails have been verified, not the IMs. Provocation is in the eyes of the beholder. Some people fly into a rage because the car in front of them observes the speed limit. Define for me what's provocative.




Not, to call you a troll, but trolls come around here all the time to pull that particular stunt. Its even more tiresome when one of our own pull it.

So?????? I was not pulling any stunts, I posted some thoughts. It's dishonest of you to suggest otherwise






That, in itself around these parts, is an invitation to an argument. One, that I gladly join.

Welcome. Just make sure you have a fine command of the language and a sense of humour.




Two... The attractiveness of the tinfoilness of this situation is attractive, for sure. Everyone here prefers to focus on the prevalent facts. To do otherwise, especially using speculations that would only be employed by an adversary is highly disruptive and does not serve our purpose to get to the truth of the matter.

I agree completely. Truth must be served. Is that what you meant?



Third... Okay, you were spanked. It happens. Realize that we did it out of love. Otherwise, you'd be pushing up granite by now.

Good. I've logged this comment as evidence that you have a spanking fetish. If I could push up granite, I'd be a mighty powerful corpse.



Forth... The sarcasm smiley. That would have saved you a lot of trouble.

I use smileys as a sort of inverted sarcasm. If you really mean what you say, smileys are not useful. They are the best tool for generalizing a range of emotions. But man, if u need to use a smiley to show what you mean, feel free....


Anything else you wanted to ask?

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[canetoad]

70. Stone the crows

Kerry, you got digital going up there?

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[canetoad]

76. I believe it's against the board rules

To publically proclaim your ignore list. Tacky if you asked me, which you didn't.

Should I alert on you Binka, or show a little tolerance. You decide.

[WilliamPitt]

65. Hee hee hee hee hee hee hee

:eyes:

[canetoad]

68. Bugger off you!

Quid pro quo

[MadHound]

72. First off, IM logs and emails aren't the only evidence in this case

There's real live witnesses, and they're testifying. Their stories back up what is in the IM logs and the e-mails. This isn't a bullshit story, this is fact that will hold up in court.

Second, this is criminal behaviour. Depending on where the investigation leads the charges could range upwards to stat rape, we don't know until the investigation is done. However at minimum, just going on what we have seen so far with the e-mails, IMlogs and the testimony of former pages, we do know that Foley engaged in child enticement, a crime carrying a penalty of 2-5 yrs, probation, and placement on the sex offenders' registry. This isn't bullshit, this is a real crime that comes with real time.

Finally there is a distinct possibilty that Hastert and others could have engaged in a criminal conspiracy themselves in order to cover Foley's crimes up. They're already stating that they knew of the e-mails, what else did they know and when? This isn't bullshit either, this a real conspiracy to cover up a crime, one that is fully punishable by the law.

Your admonition to stop this because Dems might be involved should fall on deaf ears. If Dems did indeed in this sort of behaviour, well then they deserve the punishment they get. And frankly I'm hoping for a fair trial. However looking calmly at the evidence, it doesn't look good for Foley, which is why I think he claimed alcoholism and is currently hiding in a clinic. His actions speak more eloquently of guilt than anything I can say.

I find it interesting how there's been a rash of posters who are trying to call off the dogs on this issue. How is it that you and they can so willingly defend such actions as those that Foley committed? I'd really like to know.

[SeattleGirl]

74. Excellent points, MadHound

I hope to God there are no Dems involved in this, but if there are, I want their asses in as much trouble as any repuke. A pedophile is a pedophile is a pedophile. I don't care what a person's party affiliation is, or if they have one at all. Doing this to underaged kids is wrong, wrong, wrong. And fucking sick. Anyone and everyone who had anything to do with this, Republican or Democrat, needs to be kicked out of congress, and needs to face the full force of the law.

[maddezmom]

77. locking

flamebait