so the 3rd school shooter lets the boys go and shoots to kill the girls

[donsu]

and the 2nd school shooter lets the boys go and sexually abuses the girls before shooting.

evidence of the world of men's war against women and girls.

and before you yell 'unfair' or 'flame baiting', tell me why they let the boys go.

tell me.

[junkiebrewster]

1. Because

They were clearly mentally unhinged.

[niyad]

2. people refuse to see the reality of this war against women and

girls, even though the evidence is all around us. will be interesting to see what the responses are.

[China_cat]

6. I just found out that even hinting that the attitude is

that it's only girls, not anyone who matters (with the appropriate sarcasm smilie) should not even be voiced in this forum. That pointing out that girls and young women are more and more the targets is 'inappropriate'.

Like I said...it's only girls, not anyone who matters. <bitter>:sarcasm:

[LostinVA]

45. I saw those answers to your post

WTF was I surprised???

[seabeyond]

54. yes. and these people that refuse to see have daughters.....

mothers sisters wives and friends.

we need people to see

[PsychoDad]

70. I agree.

Women are depicted in our society, through advertising and the media, not as people but as objects. Sexy mannequins with airbrushed beauty to sell through sex, not as unique individuals with their own self worth.

That airbrushed image of false perfection brainwashes not only men, but also women, some of whom harm or kill themselves to achieve that impossible and demented image of what wall street tells them they have to look like.

These are the roots of this "war". It's a disconnection on the part of men who have been sold the idea of a woman being only an object, and not a real human being.

Peace.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Because it wasn't the boys that killed Jesus.

Why the war against women and girls? Because you killed Jesus.

Satisfied?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

5. And I'll kill the FSM too!

Sorry, I know this is a serious topic but I couldn't resist ;)

[donsu]

12. so that is what the religiously insane believe? that women killed jesus?

nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. It's right there in the Bible.

But not the fake version we let you women read.

[donsu]

17. how clever you are

nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. Eh.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2225463

[Fierce]

Because there is a war against women.

Not waged by all men. But it's there.

"Woman is nigger of the world," after all, and to deny that is to deny what we see with our own eyes.

[Kittycat]

4. Where is the info on the second shooting abuse?

I heard something about this yesterday on DU, and tried to find something on the web, and fell short. Where was it published that the shooter sexually abused the girls?

[Warpy]

7. It was all over the news when it happened

and I'm sure a Google news search will turn it up if you specify the place.

[Cerridwen]

10. Here's just one article...there are many others...

Morrison molested the six girls and sexually assaulted at least two of them, the sheriff said.

Here's the link

[flyarm]

8. look up MK ULTRA...THIS IS NOW 3 TIMES WHEN REAL BAD NEWS

is coming out about rethugs and this administration..

just google up and read about mkultra..something is going on weird..but too much of a coninsidence ..

fly

[flyarm]

11. this shooter had ky jelly with him..and everything was pre planned...

he let go older girls..

he has told his wife he has been having weird dreams from 20 years ago..the timing works with mkultra!

look it up!!

fly

[kiahzero]

9. You've uncovered the secret conspiracy

All the Worldwide Union of Men's planning has gone to waste, now that you've uncovered our war against women! It would have worked perfectly, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

Sorry, but dumb posts deserve dumb responses.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kiahzero]

18. So you think glittering generalities are OK?

You think it's OK to say that I must hate women because of a Y chromosome?

I'm sick of seeing faulty, bullshit arguments like this all over the place, and I'm not going to shut up about it. It's a logical fallacy, it's fundamentally absurd, and silence is tacit approval.

There's not a "men's war against women." There's a society that harbors patriarchial norms and mores, which can lead to violence against women. Arguing the former makes it harder to fix the latter.

[Dora]

24. Nobody said anything about YOU.

Nobody has said that YOU hate women.

THE PHENOMENON OF MEN'S VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IS REAL AND MUST NOT BE DISMISSED.

By virtue of the sentiments you have expressed in this thread, you are enabling every blow.

[kiahzero]

80. The statement was that men are warring against women.

I am a man. Thus, by the poster's original dumb statement, I am at war against women. Never mind that I'm in law school, and planning on working on gender equality issues; by virtue of my penis, I must be carrying on a war against women.

[donsu]

25. 'patriarchial norms and mores' are a war against women and girls

and society doesn't 'harbor' patriarchial norms and mores - the men in society 'harbor' patriarchial norms and mores.

[kiahzero]

78. Again, tarring all men with the same brush

I guess I was doomed from birth. I never realized predestination was such a liberal concept.

[peace13]

15. With abortion repeal in the wings,

insurance companies covering Viagra and not contraception even a woman would have to guess that the deck is being stacked against her. If you were a woman you would be feeling the heel of inhumanity on your face abut now!

[donsu]

23. kicking

nt

[donsu]

16. please explain what you mean when you say 'dumb'

nt

[kiahzero]

20. Ridiculous. Absurd. Utterly lacking in sanity.

See also: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dumb.

[donsu]

30. oh, I see, it's the old 'that woman is crazy' retort

first cousin to 'that woman is hysterical' retort

[kiahzero]

79. More like the statement: "All men are warring against women" is dumb

Nice ad hominem / strawman, though.

[Cerridwen]

26. Let me help you get started with educating yourself....

Backlash: The Undeclared War Against American Women

The War Against Women

Mismeasure of Woman

Speaking Freely: Unlearning the Lies of the Fathers'Tongues which even discusses the use of dismissive language such as you've just used. Oh yeah, and though she doesn't use the term "framing," guess what she's talking about...

There are plenty more out there...these will be a good start, if you'd care to learn.

[kiahzero]

90. So, because I think the OP said something dumb, I must be unaware?

I'm well aware of the many ways in which partriarchial heteronormative beliefs still thrive in our society, and the practical implications of that. I'd be interested in reading those books, but quite honestly, I don't have the discretionary income right now to buy them.

I simply pointed out that saying that all men are warring against women is factually wrong, and lacks any justification for doing so. Thus, it was a dumb statement to make.

I believe very strongly in equality based on both gender and sex, and it's something that I plan on working for in my professional life. As part of that, I don't think it's justified to tar people as engaged in a "war" based purely on the immutable characteristic of sex.

[Cerridwen]

97. I get most of my books from the library these days.

Maybe that'd work for you, too. Not being snarky (so hard to tell in text), seriously.

Saying something is "dumb" is dismissive. It ends debate. How about coming up with some of the ideas you just posted to me rather than dismissing the OP's (and many other's) concerns.

The OP said "the world of men" not "all men." Given that my aunt once told me "it's a man's world," I got the OP's distinction.

I actually agree with you that this is not a war "based purely on the immutable characteristic of sex" but that wasn't the route this thread took. Here's another interesting book which discusses this topic more along the lines of a war against "the feminine" which makes a lot of what's happening now, foley, anti-gay crap, etc. easier to understand; if, of course, you agree with the premise of the book.

The Chalice and the Blade. This is sometimes at the local library as well.

[kiahzero]

99. If I get some time next week, I might hit the Uni. library

I know that calling something "dumb" is dismissive - I still hold that the original statement has no basis in reason. The OP was blaming all men for the actions of one particularly insane person.

It's "dumb" when people blame all of Islam for the actions of terrorists. It's "dumb" when people blame all of Christianity for the actions of homophobic bigots. Similarly, it's "dumb" when people blame all men for the actions of one crazy man.

[hfojvt]

121. world of men and saying "it's a man's world"

still seems to include all men to me.
Now if you said "It's THE man's world" (even though "the man" is more than one man) that would exclude me, since even though I am "a" man I am not "the" man. (although sometimes black people think I am).

Neither of those shooters was living the life of Riley, and their last victim, if not their first, was themself.

One of the things that hit home, right in the first chapter of Backlash was this: "Men in the '80s, on the other hand, were a little more anxious to marry than the press accounts led on. Single men far outnumbered women in dating services, matchmaking clubs, and the personals columns, all of which enjoyed explosive growth in the decade...These men had good cause to pursue nuptials; if there's one pattern that psychological studies have established, it's that the institution of marriage has an overwhelmingly salutary effect on men's mental health....Single men suffer from twice as many mental health impairments as single women; they are more depressed, more passive, more likely to experience nervous breakdowns and all the designated symptoms of psychological distress - from fainting to insomnia."

It seems to me, as a single guy, that we are all victims here, of the world of women's war against men. Sometimes victims will lash back :hide:

[Beelzebud]

19. I'll remember these posts the next time a mother kills her children.

[Dora]

31. What does infanticide have to do with men's violence against women?

Please explain your correlation.

[Beelzebud]

36. All men aren't violent against women, for one.

It is offensive to ask men to explain why some crazy fuck killed a bunch of people, as if being a man makes us all capable of something like that.

It would be no different than saying something like: "Women, why do you kill your children?"

I've seen a few posts like these since yesterday, and it's really offensive that many women seem to think that any man could explain the actions of an insane freak, on the basis that they are both male.

[Dora]

48. I don't see where the OP asks men to address the issue.

Really, I don't see it. I see a question to everyone, and that question is (my paraphrase) "Why is this happening, still?"

These questioning posts could just as easily be directed specifically to women. We should be asking each other, "Why do we stand for it?"

But we do ask, and we don't stand for it, yet we're still dismissed, and mocked, and knocked around, and molested and raped and murdered...

I'm married to a man. I ask him, "Why do men hate women?" just like that, and in just those words.

Bless him and every breath he takes. He knows I'm not accusing him of hating women. He knows that violence against women is real. He also knows that men are victims of their own self-perpetuating violence. I have seen his eyes fill with tears when I confront him with unanswerable questions. He doesn't know. He doesn't know. He doesn't know. He holds me, and loves me. For that I am glad.

Women do ask each other, "why do we kill our children?" And we discuss issues of mental health, family dynamics, faith, religion, and hysteria. These conversations are real. Do men have the same conversations with eachother? Are there men here who have had serious talks with their brothers about why some men rape? I hope and pray that there are, because it is those conversations that will do the most to end the war on women.

Why confronted with painful and uncomfortable issues, I wish that people would learn to say that they don't know the answer, rather than dismiss it altogether.

[BoneDaddy]

72. I don't care

if the OP ONLY asked for women to respond, her point of view is repulsive and her insinuations irrational and moronic.

[Dora]

75. I read your reply.

Welcome to ignore.

[BoneDaddy]

81. LOL

you think I care?

[donsu]

49. they didn't kill a 'bunch of people', they killed a bunch of girls

nt

[Beelzebud]

51. Girls aren't people?

[donsu]

58. people indicates both sexes

nt

[Beelzebud]

64. People indicates human beings.

nt

[Cerridwen]

33. Ah, yes..."women do it, too"

"Woman do it, too" - used as a justification to legitimize an act which is perpetrated by men against women in significantly higher numbers than than when "women do it, too." Frequently used to imply that women are uncaring or "selfish" or "sexist" or that a poster is denying what may be a legitimate claim though it is not the topic of discussion. Used to dilute or derail the debate.

[Beelzebud]

38. I'm not legitimizing murder, I'm pointing out the logical fallacy.

You would be offended if I asked "Women, why do mothers kill their children?", no?

Well asking all men to explain the actions of one insane freak, because their all men, is offensive.

Sexism can go both ways...

[Cerridwen]

61. And we're talking about a pattern...

a pattern of male violence against girls and women. A pattern with significantly larger numbers and occurrences. Let me bold it for you this time...

"Woman do it, too" - used as a justification to legitimize an act which is perpetrated by men against women in significantly higher numbers than than when "women do it, too." Frequently used to imply that women are "sexist" or uncaring or "selfish" or that a poster is denying what may be a legitimate claim though it is not the topic of discussion. Used to dilute or derail the debate.

Since your particular response is off topic and being used to "derail the debate", I'll continue elsewhere.

[lukasahero]

62. "You would be offended if I asked..." Actually, no

This was one thread I dug up rather quickly where women were more than willing to discuss that phenomena (OT in that threat but still willing to discuss it) I'm sure a search will bring up plenty of women willing to discuss it in the threads that are actually about it.

So should DU women have been asked about mothers who kill their kids?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2285675&mesg_id=2286206

Absolutely. There's a LONG pattern of that....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2285675&mesg_id=2287156

[rman]

76. red herring:

"...because they're all men..."

The OP did not claim it is only men who do these kinds of things.

[Beelzebud]

85. Oh yes they did...

"evidence of the world of men's war against women and girls."

They didn't come out and say "because they're all men", but that is the whole meaning of this post.

[rman]

89. I think "world of men" does not include men who are not hostile to women.

So then "world of men" is not/does not mean the same thing as "all men".

[onenote]

112. what exactly does "world of men's war" mean?

I've been puzzling over that since this thread began.

[rman]

118. A war waged by the "world of men"

You know, the aggressive, authoritarian type of men.

[onenote]

122. well, then, its not exactly the "world of men"

its a sub group of "agrressive authoritarian" men. Maybe it would be better to say that its the war against women being waged by those men that hate women. More precise, and all that...

[kiahzero]

116. Odd

To me, that reads like saying that it's impossible to be a man who isn't hostile to women. If you are a "man" who's not hostile to women, then you're not a man at all; that being hostile to women is a necessary quality to possess to be considered a man. That would seem to be the proposition we're fighting against, not one we want to embrace. It's not even particularly good if you stray from substance and go to marketing - if you're trying to convince men that they shouldn't be hostile to women, telling them that they must renounce their manhood in order to do so feels like it's a bad way of going about it.

Maybe that's just my personal overexposure to formal logic, since "world of men" in that context would imply all entities which would be described as "men."

[Akoto]

21. I don't know, maybe because he was INSANE?

I am of the male gender, and I cannot conceive any reason outside of insanity that someone would line up innocent children (gender regardless) and execute them.

To be frank, I don't care whether you believe me on that one because I'm male, or not. It's the truth. I am not waging a war against women, and there is certainly no just cause in my mind for killing them or children.

[Fierce]

22. Hey guys!

If the shooter walked into a racially integrated school and told all the white kids to leave and lined the black kids up against the wall and shot them, would that be different?

I know racial inequality is not always the same as sexual inequality. But many times, it is, and my example stands.

[Dora]

27. "Oh, but I've never been a racist myself."

"So quit talking about racism just because I'm white."
:sarcasm:

[Fierce]

86. Yup.

Yup, yup, yup.

[Solly Mack]

28. The shooter had KY jelly with him. in his suicide note he confessed

to molesting relatives 20 years ago and was afraid he would again

See thread in GD. News conference was just held


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2295916&mesg_id=2295916

[johnnie]

29. Why did the shooter let the adult women go yesterday?

And before you yell 'unfair' or 'flame baiting', tell me why he let the women go.

[peace13]

34. My guess is he was a chicken sh*t

and wanted the power over the weakest. Just a guess of course, I am not a psychologist.

[donsu]

35. because he was afraid of a grown woman and knew he could hold

power over girls

[johnnie]

39. So then...

It wasn't "evidence of the world of men's war against women and girls", in this case it was just girls?

[Cerridwen]

55. Because 20 years ago he molested other girls and he was

looking to punish girls because he was dreaming about molesting girls again.

[tigereye]

98. sadly, probably because his fixation wasn't on adult women

many people who molest sem to be fixated on an age group.


What bothers me is that he didn't try to get help for himself or his problem, but decided to execute those he planned to/ or did, victimize. If he was able to plan to barricade the doors, molest and kill, he could have planned to get help. He planned well enough to take his kids to the bus-stop first!

To my mind, that says that he had some ability to stop what he planned to do.


The whole thing is just beyond repulsive. But, horrifyingly, it could easily have been a man who did the same thing to boys.

[genie_weenie]

32. So, what should be done?

Is education working? Can education overcome the genetic struggle of genus Homo which lead to the Male of Species Homo Sapiens Sapiens? Is the Male inherently violent and if so is it unchangeable?

[donsu]

41. violence is learned

nt

[genie_weenie]

52. So, then you think it is a failure of education?

And I don't mean just schooling, but also the media culture, movies and TV which glorify violence, home behavior (how the father treats the mother), religious teaching, etc...

[donsu]

63. yes

nt

[Cameron27]

37. CNN:

Roberts apparently sexually molested some relatives 20 yrs. ago and had been having dreams about it for the last 2 or 3 yrs. I think that I heard that he felt guilty about this, but also wanted to do it again....from the suicide note.

The police colonel said he probably planned to molest the girls before shooting them, but was thrown into a panic when police arrived.

On CNN now.

[johnnie]

42. I heard he had an infant daughter that died

I wonder if that triggered the dreams. Maybe he felt it was God punishing him for molesting his relatives.

[Cameron27]

53. They talked about his hatred of god because of

the death of his daughter in this news conference... so somehow all these things were connected.

[Grey]

40. What you say is the sad truth,

If you read the Books by Marylin French -from Eve to Dawn- a history of women, she explains our history so that even men can understand (not that they probably would), I mourn for the mothers...

[peace13]

46. I have been feeling overwhelmed lately

with the war and our government holding us hostage, but the deaths at the Amish school have trumped all. I can not imagine the feelings of those in the Amish Community. This unimaginable insanity that has been thrust upon them. I feel sorrow for them and am resolved to suck it up and keep working to change that which we can change. Have not read French but will do that. Thanks. Kim

[flyarm]

44. look up MKULTRA!! ..n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. Because they were obviously mentally ill

It is silly to even try to analyze these deranged individuals.

[donsu]

57. it's absolutely imperative to analyze these men

nt

[Dora]

68. Do you have any idea why?

Why are some men so reluctant and defensive about the issue? My gawd, I'm reading some of the posts in this thread, and I'm afraid for the future. I'm hopeful these attitudes are in the minority on DU, but the silence of other men here is disconcerting, to say the least.

As a woman who remembers Susan Smith and Andrea Yates, I've had conversations with other women about mental health, and fear, and acting violently. I've had to examine my own acts of violence: throwing objects, screaming, driving recklessly while angry. I am embarassed to even type my admission here. It feels terrible to look in the mirror and see an angry and culpable face, but it has to be done.

Do men have these conversations with each other?

[madmusic]

113. Yes, my roommate and I discussed it.

The first news reported he was seeking revenge for something that happened to him 20 years ago, and we both thought and still think that was chicken shit as hell. My roommate liked O'Reilly and still likes Glen Beck. I hate them both, but we still agree on this. There was an undercurrent of "If only we could have gunned him down first." That is so much a given it need not be said. It was a cowardly and dastardly act this killer did, no doubt about it. It is always much worse when the children are so young, and he mentioned that in his emergency room days, they were always the most emotional.

We didn't try much to figure out why, probably because there could never be any way to explain it. I consider it an act of terrorism more than misogyny, and he just thinks the guy is a sick fuck. Though I agree, saying he is simply a mass murderer and leaving it at that is too much like shrugging it off in a "He's just a nut" sense, in my opinion. That implies there is nothing we can understand and therefore nothing we can do about it since there will always be nuts. But then, I'm far more liberal than he is.

We both would feel the same if the children were boys and if anything - not sure, but I'll ask him - we would maybe be even more protective and outraged when little girls. I can't speak for other men, but this might, just might, be common. But boys or girls, there would still be rage and the same undercurrent.

Believe me, the vast, vast majority of men wish they were there to gun the freak down or would have risked their lives to save those children. That's just common sense, and claiming misogyny completely clouds the issue.

[Dora]

127. Thanks for your answer, but I think you misunderstood my question.

When I asked why, I wasn't asking, "Why did he do it?"

But in light of your answer, I'll ask you this. You say that the perpetrator's actions were an act of terrorism, and I don't disagree with you. I'd like to add to that by saying that I think it's perfectly reasonable to claim that what happened is also a symptom (manifestation, if you will) of the greater hatred/fear/_?_ of (an unknown percentage of) men towards women.

I think what I hear a lot of women saying here and in other threads, is that we (women) don't hear men having these conversations - whether it's around us personally, or in the news media, in popular culture, in politics, books, research, what-have-you. What we hear from men is a long and empty silence, followed by protests, "But that's not me who did that."

That silence, and the protest, is why we bring it here, to men on DU. We are desperately seeking answers, and we're asking for your insights.

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. I understand your point

I guess I am thinking that analyzing them won't prevent any school shootings.

[The2ndWheel]

50. What answer are you looking for?

Look, if you want to take the system that is based on oppression down, I'm all for it.

Life can be violent. That's how evolution works. I don't know what else to tell you. There are some violent men, there are some non-violent men, and there are the men somewhere in between.

[donsu]

87. no, it's not violence is how evolution works. survival is how

evolution works. (killing for food to survive isn't violence - if you were thinking of that)

[uncle ray]

56. how does the Foley scandal fit into the war on women?

why didn't he come on to young girls?

these guys are sexual predators. the recent shootings have just happened to be straight men who prefer young girls. they have their fetish just loke Foley has his. would you rather they be equal opportunity killers?

[Ron Green]

59. Maybe not because females don't matter, but because they matter too much.

If a male, as he grows up, doesn't emotionally separate from his mother in an appropriate way (usually by having a loving father show him what it takes to be a caring and nurturing man), he might well never shake off the demons of his fear (and hatred) of the archetypal mother. Turning his rage on young girls, those whom he can more easily overcome, seems in keeping with this kind of fear and objectification of females. He let the boys go not because he held them in higher esteem but because he wasn't afraid of them.

Just 2 cents' worth.

[Bonobo]

60. Please add me to the list of dismissive men who think this is a dumb post.

[donsu]

65. ok, you've been added to the list

nt

[Greyhound]

66. Done.

It's really too bad, because I like your handle. :(

[Bonobo]

67. Bonobo's solve their problems through carressing and G-G rubbing!

[Cerridwen]

71. Done...

if you're interested at all in learning why this is so offensive...

Speaking Freely: Unlearning the Lies of the Fathers'Tongues which even discusses the use of dismissive language such as you've just used.

[BoneDaddy]

69. Because

Boys matter more than girls. Actually, I am being very sarcastic. Why does this need to be some rallying cry for the anti-men whackos. Why did the shooter kill the girls?
Because he was freaking crazy, that is why.
You obviously want to reduce this to some male plot to kill all women. I think you need to check into your local clinic and get a check up from the neck up. You sound like you could use it.

[Cerridwen]

73. Why are you dismissing the concerns being expressed here?

Why, when you can see several women in this thread and around DU, expressing outrage and concern, are you implying we're being hysterical?

Why when we're discussing patterns of male violence against girls and women are you trying to tell us that we have no right to be concerned?

Backlash: The Undeclared War Against American Women

The War Against Women

Mismeasure of Woman

Speaking Freely: Unlearning the Lies of the Fathers'Tongues which even discusses the use of dismissive language such as you've just used. Oh yeah, and though she doesn't use the term "framing," guess what she's talking about...

There are plenty more out there...these will be a good start, if you'd care to learn why many women and men are concerned over this.

[BoneDaddy]

82. NO

I despise your immature and childish stereotypes that you promote about men here. I never have denied the horrible legacy that patriarchy has done to women. I just think you need to not fall into the trap of sounding illogical by making all or none statements about men.

Cause guess what? If we are going to get rid of patriarchy, you will need all the help you can get, ie: help from men. When people lump men into a singular group with all the lovely labels, it seems difficult to support that kind of nonsense.

[Cerridwen]

91. And when you call it nonsense, it doesn't get discussed.

When women express concern and you don't address the very real issues they bring up and you dismiss them as "crazy," again, they don't get discussed.

The "immature and childish sterotypes" which you so snidely dismiss, are based on patterns of male violence against women and girls.

If you think it's so crazy and stupid, why even post in this thread? Or better yet, contribute something substantial having to do with systems of patriarchy and oppression?

[BoneDaddy]

94. This was NEVER

a conversation from the OP. I never got into it to "converse" but rather to point out what is false about the stereotyping and the hypocrisy that goes on on these boards regarding gender.

IF you wanted to have a mature, logical and friendly conversation, then it should have been proposed as such and not the flame bait it was.

[Cerridwen]

105. So you popped on over to this thread to tell the OP

that she's wrong and you imply she's "crazy" and that all here who are concerned about this are "anti-men whackos" (speaking of stereotyping) and you admit that you had no intention to "converse" and yet I'm the one who isn't being "mature, logical and friendly" and that the questions I asked (which you didn't answer) and the links I provided are "flame bait"?

Hoooookayfine.

[BoneDaddy]

107. LOL

I respond to posts with the same spirit they were written. If you wanted a friendly, honest discussion then post it without the all or none judgements. It wasn't so I didn't. I am not here to make friends with you, especially if the rhetoric you put out is tainted by your own judgements about men.

AS for the anti-men whackos comment, that is reserved for the ones who responded as such and not for the ones who didn't.

[Greyhound]

96. Let me see if I understand your position.

Because an insane man captures and kills several little girls (apparently he was interrupted before he could get to what he really wanted), and the women here express their outrage felt by, yet another, senseless attack against girls, you feel justified in calling them "anti-men whackos". By dismissing the inarguable fact that a serious bias against women exists in this, as well as most other cultures, you finalize your "point" by dismissing them as insane (a la Dr. Frist) and direct them to seek the help you have deemed necessary.

Small wonder that you hide your profile. If I was as big an ass I wouldn't want to be known either.

BTW, it's sexists like you that make it so much harder for the rest of us that try to bridge the division between the sexes.

[PVnRT]

74. I'd respond

But I need to go to the monthly We Hate Women meeting that all men go to. Without exception.

[Clark2008]

106. More dismissive language.

Sigh... STOP PATRONIZING WOMEN.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

83. "evidence of the world of men's war against women and girls."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Wow. Case Closed. Two sick murderous demented scumbags go on a rampage and in a completely tragic way kill some girls. That's all it takes to prove ""evidence of the world of men's war against women and girls".

What an absolutely over the top and hilariously absurd statement that is. Then you and others act so shocked beyond belief about why many think it to be that way.

What happened in the past few days has been a heart-wrenching tragedy. They were crimes committed by two very sick individuals who obviously had some issues with the female gender. Does that equate to "evidence of the world of men's war against women and girls"? Oh god no. Not by a long shot. In fact, that statement is only a sign of personal bitterness towards males, which I believe is truly your motivating factor for posting it as opposed to the murders themselves. The murders themselves just simply gave you something you could use to try and propagate your "evidence of the world of men's war against women and girls" agenda in my opinion.

Personally, I think the extreme tragedy of these murders would've been better respected simply by grieving, showing sympathy and committing to find ways of preventing these tragedies from happening again; rather than turning them into some personal ploy to declare "See! See! Men hate women!".

Just my take on it.

[Cerridwen]

84. Why are you dismissing the concerns being expressed here?

Why, when you can see several women in this thread and around DU, expressing outrage and concern, are you implying we're being hysterical?

Why when we're discussing patterns of male violence against girls and women are you trying to tell us that we have no right to be concerned?

Backlash: The Undeclared War Against American Women

The War Against Women

Mismeasure of Woman

Speaking Freely: Unlearning the Lies of the Fathers'Tongues which even discusses the use of dismissive language such as you've just used. Oh yeah, and though she doesn't use the term "framing," guess what she's talking about...

There are plenty more out there...these will be a good start, if you'd care to learn why many women and men are concerned over this.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

88. Nice Copy And Paste Job. You Send Out Form Letters Now?

If you want to be taken seriously, then actually read the different posts and respond to them uniquely. Don't just copy form letter responses and reply with them to each. All that does is serve to show that your agenda is set and you don't care about others' points of view, but you're going to ram your view down their throats anyway.

[Cerridwen]

93. Come up with a new tactic I'll post new information.

Same argument over and over, I'll copy and paste.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

95. You Mean Other Than Replying With Honest And Logical Opinion? No Thanks.

Sorry. The day I have to post dishonest sentiments that are completely absent of logic and reasoning is the day I become everything I hate. I think I'll stick with my current tactic, thank you very much.

:hi:

[Cerridwen]

100. So you consider ROFL smilies and

saying a post is "over the top and hilariously absurd" to be a logical response? Honest? Yeah, I can see where you were honest in your ridicule of someone who had the audacity to be outraged and concerned.

Well, since you're taking the opportunity to promote your own personal agenda to promote the idea that it's "absurd" for women to express outrage or concern, I'll leave you to it.

:hi:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

102. In This Context? Absofuckinlutely.

"evidence of the world of men's war against women and girls"

Two murderers have their sights on females, and that's put forth as PROOF, as EVIDENCE, as FACTUALLY SOLIDIFYING the concept of "the world of men's war against women and girls". So honestly? Yeah, I'd pretty much say that's hilarious in it's premise and completely over the top and absurd. And yes, calling it out as such is not only honest, but quite simply logical as well.

And as far as this little gem:
"Well, since you're taking the opportunity to promote your own personal agenda to promote the idea that it's "absurd" for women to express outrage or concern, I'll leave you to it."

That's pretty hilarious as well. Talk about your strawmen! :rofl:

Did you see me say ANYWHERE it was absurd for women to express outrage or concern? Of course you didn't. You simply made that up to further your own male hating agenda. All I've made reference to is the absurdity of stating that two obscure murders that targeted women proves "the world of men's war against women and girls".

Hey, be as outraged and concerned as you want about the murders. I'm outraged and concerned as well. Just don't undermine that outrage by connecting it to such ridiculously over the top notions.

[donsu]

92. well, I could start listing all the evidence, but that evidence would fill

a library. a large library in every country in the world.

[Greyhound]

101. I guess "morans" are not limited to one party.

Firstly, you replied to the OP with a quote that is not in the post.

Second, your feelings of inadequacy concerning women are exposed by your pointless invective and unsupported judgments.

Third, you falsely assign motives that are not apparent, and then exacerbate your offense by dismissing the non-existent motives with vicious, unjustified, ridicule.

Finally, you establish your utter lack of understanding by re-stating the false accusation made by no one but you in a pathetic attempt justify your obvious fear/hatred of women.

Once again, the irony of your handle is conspicuous.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

103. Pssssstttt. Hey.... You..... Yeah..... You..... C'mere.

"Firstly, you replied to the OP with a quote that is not in the post...."
"Finally, you establish your utter lack of understanding by re-stating the false accusation made by no one but you in a pathetic attempt justify your obvious fear/hatred of women."

Wow. When was your last eye doctor checkup? Here. Let me assist you. The following is the OP in its entirety. Please try and look for the part in bold, okay?

"so the 3rd school shooter lets the boys go and shoots to kill the girls
and the 2nd school shooter lets the boys go and sexually abuses the girls before shooting.
evidence of the world of men's war against women and girls.
and before you yell 'unfair' or 'flame baiting', tell me why they let the boys go.
tell me."

Ahhhhhh, there... Ya see that? Looks like the quote was there after all! :rofl:

Oh, and as for your "your obvious fear/hatred of women." remark, that should go into the 'most pathetic use of a strawman' hall of fame!

"I guess "morans" are not limited to one party."

Funny. I find myself now thinking the very same thing.

[Greyhound]

110. Ya got me...

and yet, you still have not addressed the issue of the OP except through dismissive insult and abuse, a ploy I'm sure you would never use IRL as it would lead to a well deserved ass-kicking.

You should really go look up the definition of a straw-man, no, never mind here's one; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man">"A straw man argument is a logical fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position."

You see, what I did there was to make a judgment and that judgment is based on your disproportional response to the OP's position, as well as other posts upon other topics, particularily against women, in which you over-reacted and engaged in unsubstantial invective.

To deny that which exists (systemic subjugation and abuse of women) is frequently indicative of a potentially serious pathology, please seek help.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

117. Damn Right I Did.

:rofl:

But let's continue:
"You should really go look up the definition of a straw-man, no, never mind here's one; "A straw man argument is a logical fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position."
You see, what I did there was to make a judgment and that judgment is based on your disproportional response to the OP's position,"

You said I have an obvious fear/hatred of women merely because I pointed out the 'disproportional' conclusion in the OP that these murders PROVE the "world of men's war against women and girls". I'd say that fits PERFECTLY into your very own supplied definition of a strawman, since declaring me having an 'OBVIOUS' fear and hatred towards women is not only a complete logical fallacy, but arriving at that conclusion and offering that declaration merely based on my pointing out that some isolated murders geared strictly towards women does not in any way provide "evidence of the world of men's war against women and girls" is most DEFINITELY a grossly misrepresented view of my position.

You then even now go further to state "To deny that which exists (systemic subjugation and abuse of women) is frequently indicative of a potentially serious pathology". Hey, guess what bub, you just issued another pathetic strawman based on made up misrepresentation of position. Since NOWHERE have I DENIED anything, nor in fact offered ANY conclusion on the systemic subjugation and abuse of women, you have simply lowered yourself to using a blatant strawman argument yet again.

You can try and put as many words in my mouth as you want and offer as many pathetic strawman arguments as you desire, but they're going to be shown for what they are. In the end, all I have said is that concluding that these two isolated murders are "evidence of the world of men's war against women and girls" is over the top and hilariously absurd. And it is.

[Greyhound]

126. Typical, ignore the substance, and hit the CAPS LOCK.

I made a judgment, as I stated, and you continue to reinforce it...

Been down this pointless road with you before, you are not interested in discussion, merely in hurling invective to build up your fragile ego.

Good luck to you.

[npincus]

104. heard that he called his wife during the seige and confessed

to having molested some relatives (girls) in the past and wanted to do it again... something like that. It was AAR news.

[ecstatic]

108. Possible backlash against the "women and children first" tradition?

I never really looked at this as a gender thing, but if in fact it is, maybe some men are lashing out because our society allegedly looks out for women and children first. For instance, most welfare programs benefit women and children (I think). I think most men have to get out there and fend for themselves. I could be wrong, I don'tknow the rules.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

109. Since when were a couple of lunatics "the world"?

It is undoubtedly the case that some people, almost but not quite exclusively men, are hostile to women to the point that they could figuratively be described as being in "a war against women and girls" (although that's a silly, vapid and meaningless expression, even more so than the wars on terror, drugs, crime, poverty etc).

To suggest that they are representative of "the world of men" (another undefined expression), though, is just silly.

Incidentally, it's very common in hostage takings that all/most of the women are released and the men are kept as hostages. This is the exception rather than the rule, so even if you were to properly define your argument to explain that hostage takers victimising women more than men was evidence of the systematic victimisation of women, that evidence would actually point the other way.

[onenote]

111. well said

and just to add one point: even in this case, he let some of the females leave. This was the act of a sick mind, not some "warrior".

[slackmaster]

114. Because they were all psychos; their behavior makes no sense

And this is a flamebait thread.

...evidence of the world of men's war against women and girls....

Bullshit, and a cop-out. All men are not represented by a handful of perverted freak killers who happen to be male.

[Greyhound]

115. Why is it seemingly impossible for so many to see that these tragedies,

and far too many others like them, are symptomatic of a much larger systemic dysfunction? Just because all men don't subscribe to the absurd notion that men are inherently superior to women, doesn't mean that it isn't pervasive, and that it inevitably leads to greater problems.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

119. It looked like he wanted to molest the girls and had done it before.

n/t

[aikoaiko]

120. men kill men at higher rates than women.

maybe you find that pleasing to know.


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/gender.htm

U.S. Department of Justice · Office of Justice Programs
Bureau of Justice Statistics

Homicide trends in the U.S.
Trends by gender
Most victims and perpetrators in homicides are male
Male offender/Male victim 65.2%
Male offender/Female victim 22.6%
Female offender/Male victim 9.7%
Female offender/Female victim 2.4%

[gatorboy]

123. You don't have to look any further than Repugs hatred for Hillary & Pelosi

Conservatives are livid at the mere idea that they might have to take orders from a woman.

[Lisa]

124. that's what the gunman in Montreal did, years back

He thought that the school had cheated him of a place in the engineering program by admitting women. So he focused on the female staff and students. He went into a classroom, forced the men to leave at gunpoint, and killed the women.

[Fleshdancer]

125. 2006: The Year of the Anti-Woman

As a woman and a mother of a little girl, I am extremely aware of the shift in our society lately. Whether it's a ridiculous research paper claiming women are less intelligent than men, op-ed pieces telling men to not marry working women, or psychotic monsters raping and killing our daughters at school, all the signs are there. I blame the uprise in religious fervor in this country which is mixed with this twisted culture of war. Together it creates a violent patriarchy and the history of such uprisings can be found time and time throughout history.

But that's just my take on things.

[The empressof all]

128. Locking

He let the Boys go because he was INSANE. If He let the girls go and kept the boys he'd still be INSANE. The Final answer is that He's INSANE....