It's clear at this point that bush is not a Christian, yet...

[mopaul]

millions of bush supporting christians still live under the illusion that god put w in the white house 'at this important time'. my own niece who is 29 is about to join the army because she believes this. she was raised by a religious fanatic bush lover, my brother.

PROVING that bush is not a real christian is so easy, it only takes one minute. just whip out your handy little copy of the beatitudes and hold them up against bush's record and agenda and viola---not a christian.

all it takes to convince millions that you are a good christian is simply saying it aloud in public. you don't even have to prove it, just utter it.

more and more here lately bush has stuck god into his speeches, just the other day he had to utter, 'i believe in the almighty' and several other godly platitudes to keep the simple but effective illusion going.

the millions of people who STILL believe he's a good christian can only be described as stupid fools, one of our nations greatest natural resources. this nation runs on the power and the fuel of stupidity. and the neocons really know how to tap into this vast reserve of stupidity and exploit it. these men who are in charge are the ones the bible warns us about. so whenever you're confronted by bush loving jesus zombies whip out YOUR copy of the beatitudes and read it to them, one point at a time aloud while smacking them repeatedly in the face and throwing ice water on them.

[liberal N proud]

1. All that matters to the stupid fools is that bu$h said he is saved

The little fact that he probably didn't mean it when he said it is mute to them. They are that damned dumb

[beam me up scottie]

2. How is he not a christian?

Christian describes which god someone believes in, not how moral they are.

From religioustolerance.org:

Dictionary definitions:

Unfortunately, an air of religious intolerance permeates North America. Many Americans and Canadians equate "Christian" with being kind, decent or good. This implies that non-Christians lack these qualities. The purpose of dictionary definitions is to reflect the actual usage of words. Many dictionaries reflect this prejudice:

Webster's:
"1. A person professing belief in Jesus as the Christ, or in the religion based on the teachings of Jesus.
2. A decent, respectable person.
3. having the qualities demonstrated and taught by Jesus Christ, as love, kindness, humility, etc.
4. Of or representing Christians or Christianity.
5. humane, decent, etc." 11

Other dictionaries:
Word iQ: "A follower of the faith of Christianity." 12
Encarta: "Any phenomenon as complex and as vital as Christianity is easier to describe historically than to define logically...the centrality of the person of Jesus Christ...is...a feature of all the historical varieties of Christian belief and practice. Christians have not agreed in their understanding and definition of what makes Christ distinctive or unique." 7
hyperdictionary:
a religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ and is a member of a Christian denomination.
following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ
(religion) relating to or characteristic of Christianity; 'Christian rites'." 13
TheFreeDictionary: "A monotheistic system of beliefs and practices based on the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus as embodied in the New Testament and emphasizing the role of Jesus as savior." 14
Other dictionaries: According to, Robin's Nest, most English dictionaries define a Christian as: "n. person who believes in and follows Christ. adj. relating to Christ or Christianity; kind or good."

[Clark2008]

5. Well, he doesn't represent Nos. 2,3,4 or 5,

and he only gives lip-service to No. 1.

[beam me up scottie]

6. Really?

How do you know what god he believes in?

And you conclude that he is an atheist because he's not nice enough to be christian?

Notice the word "intolerance" at the top of the definition.

[FreedomAngel82]

11. As a Christian myself

he is like Jerry Falwell and the rest of them. Look at how they treat Jimmy Carter and it's so disgusting. They don't give a damn about their faith except to manipulate people into voting for them and turning around and being the devil incarnate. It's disgusting. Try to find the films "With God on Our Side" and "God in the White House." If those films don't piss you off then nothing will.

[beam me up scottie]

16. Sorry, he's a christian asshole, not an atheist.

Unless you know for a FACT that he doesn't believe in the christian god, of course.

[FreedomAngel82]

21. As the old saying goes

"actions speak louder than words." If you can't see through it then maybe you're as blind as his little followers.

[beam me up scottie]

24. As the old saying goes : No True Scotsman.

Look it up.

[Clark2008]

35. Angel, he's just using this to Christian bash.

He's probably one of those DUers who keeps telling me my faith is imaginary.

He doesn't believe in God and thinks those of us who do are stupid. In other words, he's not any more tolerant than he believes Christians to not be.

[Goblinmonger]

88. I don't believe that BMUS

ever told you that your "faith" was imaginary. I would like a link to that, please. She would never do that. (I could go on a "bearing false witness" rant, but I will resist).

Now, that being said, I am quite sure that she would have said that your god is imaginary. Hell, I'll say it now. Your god is imaginary. Those are two different things. I don't think it takes too much of an intellect to figure out the difference. Let me know if you need help.

So here's a question for you. You believe in god. I do not. I have to "respect" your god and shut my mouth. Why is that? Why can't I call bullshit on your beliefs? People are calling bullshit on Bush's beliefs. Why is that any different? Should we all respect poor little bushie and his christianity and not persecute him by questioning anything? If not, why do you deserve any more respect than Bush and his faith? Why doesn't my view of the world deserve the same respect as yours? You can talk about believing in god, and everyone needs to nod their heads. I talk about my lack of belief in a god and indicate why I think that (your god is imaginary and no different than any other mythology that we now identify as false) but everyone gets their panties in a bunch because of what I say. Then they even go so far as to tell me that I actually DO have a belief system about god, contrary to what I explain. Yet, that is no problem.

Grow up. Put on your big girl panties and learn to live in the real world where your views are actually questioned (which is a good thing, btw). You are the fucking majority--stop talking about persecution.

[Clark2008]

146. My faith is non-negotiable.

Therefore, your questions aren't relevant.

You grow up and realize I don't have to answer your questions and that it's every bit as intolerant for you to assume I'm fucking stupid (as in I believe in 'imaginary' things) as you allege the fundie Bushbots are. Don't you SEE that?

And, I'm not the fucking majority. I'm a REAL Christian, not one of the fundie nuts.

LEARN THE FUCKING DIFFERENCE.

[Goblinmonger]

147. My questions were not about your faith.

There were about why I can't question your faith when you insult me ("they are just Christian bashing" to paraphrase). Also, why can't I question your faith when you do the same to Bush?

So I am intolerant because my view of the world is that god doesn't exist? Or is it just that I express my view that makes me intolerant? Either way, don't you see that you are acting like an immature child when you cry intolerance when I express my viewpoints? Why are your viewpoints more valid and more open to being stated than mine?

Notice again that NONE of these questions are about the faith you hold, just why you can talk about your world view, but I can't talk about mine.

Oh, I forgot, you're a REAL Christian. Then that makes all the difference. Are you a real scotsman, too? Perhaps you, as a real christian, are familiar with Matthew 7:1. Why does that not apply to you? And why do you not show me where BMUS says the things you claimed she said since I am sure that you, as a real christian, would not bear false witness? And don't whine to me about me being judgemental. You started that game with the "REAL christian" bit, not I. You set the standards you want to live by. I'm just holding you to them.

Do I think the fundie nuts are a hugh threat? Yes. Do I think you are a significantly less threat? Yes. But don't think for a minute that religion has not been the cause of some really heinous shit. Even currently. Look at what major christain religions are doing to gays, women, children. Oh, I know, they aren't REAL christians. But you have no faults. I know this because Christ very clearly told his followers that the one without sin should cast the first stone. I responded to your stone throwing/false witness bearing. YOU started this, not me. I just called bullshit on you.

on edit: you are the majority religion. What is it, 70%+ claim christianity as their religion? If it was still a theocracy (which we move closer to ALL the time--as real democratic christians stand by and say nothing so that we don't GASP lose an election or something), they would be burning me at the stake. You would still live. That's what I meant about you being the majority.

[Dorian Gray]

162. Personally...

I don't get offended if people tell me that God is imaginary or their best friend. To each their own. I do find it condescending if someone would tell me that I believe in a "fairy-tale." Offended? No. Condescending? Yes. A fairy-tale is something that someone with a childlike mentality would believe. I've come to my faith only after a college education, lots of studying, and reading. I love philosophy and theology, and I love learning about beliefs from other cultures.

I would never presume to laugh at anyone else's beliefs. Or ridicule them. I would never tell anyone they were silly or ignorant for believing in anything that they believe, so I don't understand why it's so important for others to come out and put down my faith. I couldn't care an iota whether you think that my beliefs are silly or stupid, to be honest. But, when people start using language that is meant to show how "silly" someone is for believing in God, I can see why some people get a little ruffled.

[Goblinmonger]

166. Personally

I don't bust out the fairy tale until somebody really pisses me off. When they really piss me off, then we start talking about pink unicorns and the invisible dragon in my garage. I will use mythology quite a bit, but I would imagine that would not offend you based on your last post. It does rub a lot of people the wrong way.

Since we are being honest, I do think that believing in god is silly. And ignorant. I would, though, make it clear that I see a distinct difference between ignorant and stupid. Can you be a good person and believe in god. Sure. I have no problem with most theists on DU. Others rub me the wrong way because they don't seem to have the respect for me and my world view that they demand I have for them. You don't seem like one of those people. Though there is still time ;)

[earth mom]

102. self delete

[lukasahero]

65. He's neither Christian nor Atheist. He's an opportunistic capitalist.

He professes to believe in whatever will win him re-election and keep his sheeple blind to his true ambition - money and power.

One of the definitions of Christian you provided was that one who believes in the teachings of Jesus. The teachings of Jesus are vehemently against the accumulation of wealth and power and vehemently for personal sacrifice in the aid of those less fortunate. I don't claim to know what god shrub truly believes in, but all evidence suggests it is the god of money.

[Clark2008]

34. I didn't conclude he was an atheist - didn't even use that word.

You're the person showing intolerance.

I was taking the LITERAL definitions you published and applied them to Shrub. Doesn't work.

[beam me up scottie]

49. What is he then? Jewish? Muslim? Buddhist?

If he's NOT christian, he must be something else.

Please specify.

[Clark2008]

71. Why?

I merely concluded that he didn't live up to the definition of Christianity that you posted.

I didn't conclude that he was anything and I don't have to.

[Dorian Gray]

78. Why must he be ANYTHING else

Perhaps, as one of the poster's stated before, he worships money and power. (The God of Mammon.) Doesn't make him an athiest if one says one is not a Christian.

That's a leap in reasoning and a jump to conclusions that begins arguments about this topic.

[Dogmudgeon]

44. Atheist?

Where'd you get the idea anyone was saying that Bush is an atheist?

There's plenty of word-and-definition parsing being done over Bush's "Christianity", but I haven't seen atheism come into the question yet.

--p!

[Dorian Gray]

76. Nobody said he was an athiest...

The OP said he wasn't a Christian. Since he doesn't profess Non-belief, that would not automatically put him in the athiest category. It would put him in the "false Christian" category.

[FreedomAngel82]

9. Like James said

"Faith without works is dead" and Jesus warned of false prophets saying you'll know them by their deeds. Bush isn't a Christian like I'm not a Muslim.

[beam me up scottie]

12. I have only your word that you're a christian.

And it's as good as his or any other christian's.

The No True Scotsman fallacy is called a fallacy for a reason.

[FreedomAngel82]

23. Uh a Christian is someone who follows Jesus Christ

Please point to me something in Bush's life where he claims to become a Christian to where he has followed Jesus Christ. That's what a Christian is.

[beam me up scottie]

25. Uh, a christian is someone who believes in the christian god.

Point me to where he says he's an atheist.

[FreedomAngel82]

37. Nope wrong

A Christian is someone who follows Christ and believes he is the son of God.

[trotsky]

56. That's Bush.

Bush claims to follow Christ, and claims to believe he is the son of God.

Considering that 2000 years of Christianity have produced infighting and wars over just what it means to "follow" Christ, I don't know that you're in a position to declare who is and who is not a Christian. All we can go on is what people claim.

[Kahuna]

41. You have no idea what you're talking about. A Christian by definition..

IS a follower of Christ. Nice for a non-believer to try to tell Christians what a Christian is.

[Dorian Gray]

79. NOBODY ever claimed he was an athiest.

Just as nobody ever claimed that Falwell, Robertson, or any other "false Christians" are anything other than "False Christians." They may believe that Christ is God, but they do a terribly bad job of twisting His words in order to fit their goals. That is not somebody that is a "true Christian," somebody who lives by Jesus' words. That in NO WAY means that person is an athiest, a Buddhist, a Muslim, a Jew, or any other religion. I don't understand why you would immediately assume that is what mopaul or any of the subsequent posters actually do mean.

[alittlelark]

171. I understand where you are coming from.

I was raised Catholic, and am now Atheistic. The New Testament is (mostly) a wonderful goal for humanity to attain.

Unfortunately, The old Testament is what our churches are now looking at - it is the only way to rationalize world events.

Jesus was a great thinker....
The Old Testament is what he tried to 'fix'.

Christo-Fascists prefer the Old Testament.
They refuse Enlightenment - they are still evolving.

[Warpy]

3. That's why the word "unchristian" packs such a wallop

and MUST be used with these people when the subject of Idiot comes up. These aren't bad people and they have certainly read the words of Jesus. They know what the teachings are. Rubbing their noses in the way Idiot does everything to oppose the teachings is the only way to get their attention and to start to get through to them that they're (by their own beliefs) following Antichrist.

[beam me up scottie]

4. I'm UNchristian.

And I resent the hell out of people who try to put bush in my camp because they don't want to admit christians can be assholes too.

[Warpy]

8. Do you cheat poor people every chance you get?

Do you kill as many people as you can, having discovered the joy of killing by proxy and keeping your own hands clean?

Do you spew hatred all day, every day, and pretend it's piety?

That's UNchristian. You're just a garden variety heathen. Like me.

[beam me up scottie]

14. I am UNchristian because I'm not christian.

You're arguing the No True Scotsman fallacy that he must be an atheist because he's not good enough to be christian.

Look it up.

[BiggJawn]

54. No, and neither do I eat newborn babies or rape preschoolers.

Any other stereotypical slurs at an unchristian (or non-christian) person you'd care to mumble here?

I really get pissed-off at people who repeat the "Xian GOOD un (or non) Xian BAD!" talking point.

Lemme ask ya something. What's more honourable? Somebody who Does the Right Thing simply because it IS the right thing, or somebody who goes through the motions only because they have the threat of hellfire and a perpetual Hieronymus Bosch-styled afterlife hanging over them?

Because that's exactly what it distills down to when somebody claims that they're more "moral" than me just because they belong to this group called "Christians" and I don't, this idea that I can NOT be a good person simply because I don't live under the threat of eternal pain.

[tnlefty]

89. Somebody who does the right thing simply because it is the right thing.

I suppose a better way to describe Dimson** and his followers would be that they aren't following the tenets of Christ. If I were an atheist I wouldn't appreciate anyone trying to shove him off on me. Then again, I don't want any part of the religion that he and his followers seem to have adapted.

[BiggJawn]

93. I understand.

A long time ago, before I made the jump to "militant Atheist" I used to wonder what would happen if Jesus DID come back and walk up to Pat Robertson and say "Hey, thanks for raising all that money for Me. Now, hand it over." I think we can all agree on what Pat's reply would be...

Or Rod Parsley over in Ohio..."Uh, Rod? Where do you get off with all this 'warrior' and 'spiritual warfare' talk? Have you forgotten that I said 'Blessed are the Meek'?"

But until then, we'd have these "Pharisees" claiming to have the One True Word, wouldn't we?

[FreedomAngel82]

15. We're all just mortals

so anybody can be an asshole. But if you believe Bush is a Christian you're really delusional quite frankly. But again try to find those two documentries and if those don't scare you or piss you off then you just don't see what's going on. As a Christian it pissed the hell out of me and as a liberal scared the shit out of me.

[beam me up scottie]

18. I believe you're a christian because you say so.

I have only your word that you believe in the christian god.

No True Scotsman.

Look it up.

[FreedomAngel82]

26. If you knew me in real life you'd know my actions/deeds

But you don't. Again, as James said: "Faith without works is dead." So show me something Bush has done to show he's a Christian. If he is any type of Christian he wouldn't have to announce it to the whole world to use the fundie votes.

[beam me up scottie]

29. I don't. I only have your word that you believe in your god.

That's all anybody has.

Show me where he says he's an atheist.

[FreedomAngel82]

38. I love how you're standing up for Bush now

LOL.

[Goblinmonger]

90. I don't believe she

or anyone else is standing up for Bush. Bush is a christian. You guys don't want him in your camp because he is an asshole so you claim he isn't one of you. BMUS is clearly, and obviously, saying that the alternative would be that he is some other religion (never shown) or an atheist. Hey, we don't want him either and we resent the implication that because someone is an asshole, they are an atheist. It is like conservatives that disclaim Hitler was a conservative. Hitler is their asshole to deal with. Bush is your asshole to deal with.

[ProfessorGAC]

It Seems You're Proposing A Difference Without A Distinction

There is a complete disconnect between theism/atheism and christianity. These people are not claiming he's anything. They're claiming he's NOT a christian. That doesn't imply that he's any particular other thing. Just that he's NOT christian.

I'm not a christian either. I'm not anything. But, i know Silverspoon is not behaving as a christian, as Christ instructed.

Being NOT something doesn't automatically imply one MUST be something else. The absence of christian behavior is clear. That implies nothing else about what Silverspoon believes.
The Professor

[knitter4democracy]

63. It's a different use of the word.

Most evangelicals I know (and I know a lot--went to an evangelical college) use the term "unchristian" to refer to either acts that go directly against Christ's teachings or to people who seem Christian but act in non-Christ-like ways.

People who don't believe in Christ are usually called "unbelievers" or "nonbelievers" or referred to by their actual belief system, such as athiest, Muslim, etc.

[FreedomAngel82]

13. I wouldn't say he's the antiChrist because

he hasn't fooled the world. But just show them the 2006 budget cuts and how he's NOT helping the poor and how they're purposley doing nothing for the Katrina survivors. Hitler pretended to be Catholic too. :shrug:

[Bridget Burke]

66. "Unchristian" is not the same as "Nonchristian"

Non-Christians profess other religious beliefs than Christianity--or none at all.

Those who claim to be Christian but behave in ways that would make Jesus weep can be called "Unchristian."

The English language--ain't it wonderful?

[salvorhardin]

100. Maybe "false Christian"

would be a better term? Of course, I prefer "lying, murdering, thieving, deceitful pile of shite" but I can see where that would be unwieldy.

It's hard for us atheists because our beliefs can encompass anything and everything except for a belief in at least one god. So when someone claims that Bush is not a Christian, even though he professes to be one, there's the implication that he's anything but a Christian. Well, since Bush doesn't claim to be a Jew, a Muslim, a Janist, a Zoroastrian, Shinto or anything else then the only thing left is that Bush does not believe in any god, therefore is an atheist. Can you not see how that would be offensive to atheists since you find it offensive that Bush identifies with Christianity?

I know that isn't what you mean to imply, but there it is.

[lukasahero]

105. As I suggest upthread: the only god shrub believes in is that of money and

power. Since those two items are the very things Jesus rebelled against, perhaps you can also understand how his claim that he is a "Christian" is horribly offensive to many Christians.

I'm not sure that suggesting he isn't a Christian is the same thing as saying he is an atheist. An atheist doesn't believe in god. Shrub claims he does and I fully believe he does so he's obviously not an atheist (by definition). I also fully believe that the god he believes in is, as I've been saying, money and power. I guess that doesn't fall nicely into any particular established formal religion but I think almost everyone here will acknowledge it's truth.

You know, I can claim to be an astrophysicist but until I can perform the complex calculations required to actually be one, I'm not. That's how I view shrub's claim to Christianity.

[Bridget Burke]

137. I'm mostly Atheist and/or Agnostic myself.

But I've heard plenty of Christians complaining about other Christians whose behavior does not reflect well on their shared beliefs. "Unchristian" is the word generally used.

"Nonchristian" is less judgmental & just means that someone does not claim to be a Christian. Here's a good source for the more judgmental terms:

www.landoverbaptist.org

[FreedomAngel82]

7. Yep

Not even my grandmother on my dad's side buys it anymore. She confessed around last Thanksgiving that she didn't believe anything he said anymore and was doubting his faith. Heh.

[beam me up scottie]

10. Yep.

He's a hypocrite, just like many of the christians around here who seem to have no problem overlooking their own un-Jesus like behavior when it comes to religious intolerance.

[Saturday]

17. You are not a

Christian just because you say you are. Bush says he is but his actions don't show it. He is a liar. Christians try to live by the 10 Commandments. That "Thou shalt not kill" one is heavy on Bush's shoulders.

[beam me up scottie]

20. If no christians broke the 10 commandments, there are no true christians.

And all we have to go by is one's word they believe in the christian god.

[FreedomAngel82]

28. As Jesus said "you'll know them by their fruits"

[beam me up scottie]

30. As BMUS said: No True Scotsman

:evilgrin:

[China_cat]

And all we get are the nuts and flakes.

[FreedomAngel82]

45. Real Christians don't have to go around

and tell every person they meet they are one. They don't do charity works for fame and attention. They're more of a "behind the scenes" type of person. Bush is all talk. If he did believe in God and Christ he wouldn't be where he's at now since he stole the election from Gore in 2000 and stealing is one of the big sins in the Christian faith.

[FreedomAngel82]

27. Not totally right

Christians try to follow Christ. The Ten Commandments are Jewish laws and I'm not a Jew.

[beam me up scottie]

32. Wrong. Read it AGAIN

From religioustolerance.org:

Dictionary definitions:

Unfortunately, an air of religious intolerance permeates North America. Many Americans and Canadians equate "Christian" with being kind, decent or good. This implies that non-Christians lack these qualities. The purpose of dictionary definitions is to reflect the actual usage of words. Many dictionaries reflect this prejudice:

Webster's:
"1. A person professing belief in Jesus as the Christ, or in the religion based on the teachings of Jesus.
2. A decent, respectable person.
3. having the qualities demonstrated and taught by Jesus Christ, as love, kindness, humility, etc.
4. Of or representing Christians or Christianity.
5. humane, decent, etc." 11

Other dictionaries:
Word iQ: "A follower of the faith of Christianity." 12
Encarta: "Any phenomenon as complex and as vital as Christianity is easier to describe historically than to define logically...the centrality of the person of Jesus Christ...is...a feature of all the historical varieties of Christian belief and practice. Christians have not agreed in their understanding and definition of what makes Christ distinctive or unique." 7
hyperdictionary:
a religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ and is a member of a Christian denomination.
following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ
(religion) relating to or characteristic of Christianity; 'Christian rites'." 13
TheFreeDictionary: "A monotheistic system of beliefs and practices based on the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus as embodied in the New Testament and emphasizing the role of Jesus as savior." 14
Other dictionaries: According to, Robin's Nest, most English dictionaries define a Christian as: "n. person who believes in and follows Christ. adj. relating to Christ or Christianity; kind or good."

[FreedomAngel82]

40. Duh

You have to actually follow Jesus to be considered a Christian. Professing you believe in him comes with baptism.

[beam me up scottie]

48. Says who?

The definition is if you believe in the christian god, not if you follow Jesus.

[Bridget Burke]

67. Jesus IS the Christian God.

Or--one third of that God. Since you've got a dictionary, look up the Trinity.

[Dorian Gray]

80. Same thing. N/T

[Hubert Flottz]

46. One thing about Bush, he don't play any favorites...

when it comes to breaking commandments. Prince Dumbya is an equal opportunity hypocrite.

I think religion has become just like anything else you pay good money for, anymore. Flaky Freakin' Junk! I'll bet it's even made in China too! Chubby Cheeked, Well Healed Pat and Jerry sezz, "Send me $500.00 and I'll put in the good word to Gawd for ya!" I can see where idiots who believe that swill, would STILL be stupid enough to trust Bushco.


Bush don't have Old Time Religion, his is the new imported cheap labor type model, I'm afraid. I just can't picture shrub walking anywhere near the "Lion's Den," let alone walking in one.

The Chosen One sezz..."Behold, I Stand At Your Wife's Window And Peek!" "Because I Can!" "Trust Me, I Won't Ever Look At, Nor Covet, Her Bare Buns!"

[FreedomAngel82]

19. Oh please

I personally don't give a damn about other people's religion but when the so-called "leader of the free world" is going around proclaiming to be something he's not then I'm going to tell the truth about it. Sorry if you don't like it but you don't have to be in this thread either. :shrug: So Hitler pretended to be Catholic too. If you were around then would you have any problem with that? All you have to do is read through the gospel books and you can see Bush is a phony.

[beam me up scottie]

22. No True Scotsman.

Look it up.

Look up religious intolerance while you're at it.

[FreedomAngel82]

31. I love how you're making excuses for Bush

And as I said before if you believe Bush is a Christian you're just like his little followers who believe it. Just because someone proclaims something doesn't mean it's true. Hitler claimed to be a Catholic but we know that wasn't true eh? A Christian doesn't murder, steal from the poor, lie etc.

[beam me up scottie]

33. Because I don't accept that he's an atheist?

I love how you're attacking me because you can't face the fact that all Christians aren't as christ-like as you think they are.

[FreedomAngel82]

42. And you can't stand it that you're making an excuse for Bush

You're just Christian bashing. That's all this thread is. Christians know that not everyone is perfect. Duh. I already told that in a previous post of mine. Read it. What, are you going to make excuses for Hitler next and him being Catholic?

[Dorian Gray]

81. Seriously,

you keep repeating that people claim he's an athiest. Not ONCE in this thread did I see any one person purport that he was an athiest. I don't know where you came up with that. It seems an extreme interpretation of what every person is saying. I know most athiests who act morally and ethically superior to Bush, and it's insane that you would assume because those of us who are Christian who believe that he doesn't act like a Christian automatically lump him in the athiestic camp.

It's truly a outright misreading of intention on the OP's and the Christian posters' parts. It seems as though it is argument for argument's sake, as nobody in their right mind believes that Bush is an athiest. An opportunist who worships money and power? Yes. Possibly made a deal with the DEVIL? Sure. But an athiest? No way. I don't know how much clearer that could be made.

[Goblinmonger]

91. What is he then

He has to be in some camp. He either believes in god or he doesn't. You say he doesn't (I haven't seen an alternative religion mentioned). That would make him an atheist.

[lukasahero]

94. "I haven't seen an alternative religion mentioned"

Then you haven't read the entire thread. I suggest way upthread that his god is that of money and power.

[Goblinmonger]

95. So he's Catholic?

:rofl: Sorry, just read an article about the Pope wearing Prada and Guicci and how one of his vestments could feed a small nation for a month.

[Dorian Gray]

109. I never said he doesn't beleive in God...

I repeat:

NEVER ONCE did I say he didn't believe in God, A God, Any God, in Religion, or in Jesus.

What I did say was that he doesn't act like a Christian. Perhaps what is "confusing" people (in quote because I can't imagine that it would be confusing at all, but I will give the benefit of the doubt) is the idea of what I mean by that. To me, acting like a Christian means acting with love towards all of our fellow human beings. Not killing others, not creating wars, not allowing our good buddies to grab power and money, etc.

Obviously, others are working from a position where they believe Christians throughout history have behaved in such a way. Those of us who are Christians believe that those people were not acting out of true Christ-like motivations. They were acting out of personal greed and evil.

None of that has anything to do with Christianity. It has to do with human selfishness, regardless of religious persuasion.

So, I believe that Bush is a very bad Christian, and he behaves "Un-Christianlike." If I were to classify his religion, I would say he was a Christian. But, I reject that he truly understands the tenets of Christianity. I reject that he is a "true" Christian who puts the teachings of Christ above his own personal ambition.

How that is mistaken by anybody that I or others would claim him to be an Athiest is beyond me.

[Goblinmonger]

130. The OP said this

"It is clear at this point that bush is not a Christian"

The responses are to this (and others have said the exact same words in this thread). Notice the language is not what you just said. So let's follow through with the logic and find the classification that he is.

Bush is not a Christian.
He must either be some other religion or an atheist/agnostic.
No claims are made by people that said "not a Christian" as to his other religion.
All that is left is atheist/agnostic.

What really gets to me is that this unstated logic is put together with the fact that he is not a Christian because he is an asshole. This adds "atheists are assholes" onto the end of the above.

[Dorian Gray]

140. Regardless...

I still think that's a jump in logic.

I don't see anyone believing or claiming that Bush is an Athiest. I see people claiming that he is not Christian, of course. But that in no way leaves only Athiesm as a result. Many people have claimed that he worships power and money while giving lip service to Christianity, yet you still claim that we're foisting him off onto Athiests.

I believe that this whole issue is a problem based on semantics. Some reject his Christianity because he behaves in an un-Christlike fashion. But, we know he claims to be a Christian. The purpose of denying his Christianity is to uphold higher morality for those of us who believe in goodness, fairness, and ethical living. Those of us who want to help other people survive, clothe and feed the poor, and truly treat other human beings with dignity and respect see the antithesis of our Christian living in Bush and his followers. Liberal Christians are trying to empower our voices by rejecting what we believe to be antithetical to our beliefs.

In a sense we are rejecting that FORM of Christianity. The form that gives lip service to God while ignoring the good of our fellow human beings and of our earth.

And, it's been repeatedly said that Bush worships power and money. I've stated that already in this post, so I will do so again. You may argue that is not a true religion, so we must still be referring to Athiesm. But that's not true. The hypocrisy of such worship by many was documented in the Bible. You may not use that as a barometer for definitions, but we Christians do. We do not project Bush to be a non-believer. He's definitely a believer. Those things are FALSE Gods, therefore eliminating any chance that he is actually an athiest.

As for what the OP said, you should take that up with him. Since your previous response was listed under responses to my particular post, I responded using my own thoughts on the subject. They don't represent his view, just my own.

[Goblinmonger]

167. I will agree

that YOU AND I are just at a semantic disagreement about Bush. I don't believe that is true for everyone posting. Many times I see the atheist=immoral argument. It gets frustrating. I apologize if I hoisted it onto you unjustly. As I said elsewhere, I have no problems with you or your treatment of me and other atheists.

[Saturday]

36. I'd say he's number 1....

Standing center stage proclaiming himself to be something he isn't.

pharisee

n 1: a self-righteous or sanctimonious person 2: a member of an ancient Jewish sect noted for strict obedience to Jewish traditions

[mwb970]

68. This whole discussion seems surreal to me.

It's like arguing about whether some child somewhere does or does not believe in Santa Claus.

What Bush believes is locked in his head. What he does affects everyone in the world. His policies appear to me to be against everything Jesus did, taught, or stood for. For me, that makes him un-Christian, regardless of his "beliefs".

[Strong Atheist]

86. The problem is that you are saying that all

REAL christians are wonderful and noble, which is not true, as B* and Hitler show. The argument "X is not a REAL christian" is always meant to say that all REAL christians are wonderful and noble, which is why it is a bullshit argument. Bush and Hitler are both self-identified christians, not atheists. Deal with it.

[seabeyond]

39. 1988 repug convention a reporter asked bush. what do you and

your father talk about when you dont talk politics

pussy bush said

i tell this to whoever tells me he is a good christian man. and i ask them, what father of two girls, what husband would say soemthing like that. he sits at the dinner table and looks in his daughters eyes, wife's eyes, and he says something like that. i tell men, (always a shocker for them) and i tell women......always offends them

[FreedomAngel82]

43. Good

Don't forget when he flipped the finger off calling it his "victory saulte."

[shaniqua6392]

47. What would Jesus do?

I guess George shows his true nature when he does things like that. The people I go to church with, for the most part, vote Republican because they say they are pro life. After they cast their vote, they never pay attention to politics, war, or the erosion of civil liberties. George is not a Christian. Period.

[beam me up scottie]

50. What is he then? Jewish? Muslim? Buddhist?

Since he's not good enough to be christian, what is he?

Specify.

[Strong Atheist]

51. Of course he is. Despite the apologists on this

board, he says he is a Christian, and sure ain't an atheist!:evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

52. Which christian conservatives are not christian?

All of them?

Any?

Who decides?

[stepnw1f]

133. Oh Brother... (nt)

[ScreamingMeemie]

53. but...but...he's just a MAN...Why are y'all being so mean to him all

the time? I mean, I, personally, feel close to him...his life experiences are so close to mine. Never before has a president struck a chord with me...


***Actual comment by actual idiot of a next door neighbor. I highly doubt she comes from a twisted (well maybe), wealthy family.

[BiggJawn]

55. Just like "Hitler was not a Christian", eh, Mo?

Oh, my, Godwin's Law states that I just lost, and this thread is over.

This fallacy that a "Monster" can not be Christian. What a way to try and be able to look at one's self in the mirror without regret over what has been done "in your Lord's name".

I suppose in the NEXT round of revisionism we will discover that Tomas de Torquemada (architect of the "Spanish Inquisition")was not a Christian, either, right?

[Saturday]

57. Does Bush THINK he's a Christian?

Sure he does. And you might like to think he is too. But I as a Christian have the right to think he isn't because of his behavior/actions. His actions do not match his words. Does Colin Powell think he's a patriotic American? Sure he does. But sitting in front of the UN lying makes me think he is a traitor instead. What you think of yourself does not always translate to what you really are.

[Goblinmonger]

92. So now you're the judge?

Do you get to go through the whole list of people that say they are Christian and make a decision. Are you kind of like the Christian Santa Claus? :rofl: Well, I thought it was funny anyway.

Words of advice from a former Catholic: Matthew 7:1

[ComerPerro]

58. most of his followers aren't "real" Christians either, so its all good

they are just as happy with the lie as Bush is.

It makes them feel good.

[crowcalling]

59. Christian as adjective or Christian as a noun

Frankly I've given up. I know people who are great folks - really, in their own circle, but they are Bush supporters and spew the most UnChristian filth any chance they get when it deals with those outside of their circle.

One in particular had to comment on Katrina yesterday. It was an inappropriate place to make such comments - the workplace, and the start of a meeting."Those folks who were left behind were all whiners waiting for someone to come and pick them up instead of leaving. And now they have to blame it all on Bush!" Those were the comments. Uggghhh. And as those filthy comments were agreed upon by others in the room, all I could see in my mind was a man trying to get his family up to the attic as the water came rushing in, and losing his wife.

Would this person, if she were in that exact situation just stand there and yell out that that man was just a whiner - drown you filthy whiner?

It must be nice to be emboldened to say these kinds of things in social situations - and feel that it is quite alright to do so. It chills me to the bone. Because as we progress down the slippery slope, the trains loading "Whiners" to be executed, will be quite all right for these so called Christians. I have no doubt. Ask yourself - would you feel safe to be on an island alone with this kind of person? That's my Christian as an adjective versus Christian as a noun test.

[Fox Mulder]

60. It's sad.

I know a lot of ignorant fools who think Bush is a true Christian.

Sad, isn't it? Anyone who thinks Bush is a Christian has been living under a rock for the past five years.

[leftofthedial]

61. king george is a christian

and coca cola is thirst quenching

and oil companies are concerned about the environment

and financial companies don't really care about money, they care about your happiness

and pharmaceutical companies will give you all the drugs you need if you can't afford them

and fast food chains serve the healthy, delicious food you really need

and if you drive an SUV you'll be healthy and happy and live in the mountains

and if you shop at Wal Mart, you'll be happy because of all the money you "save"



what the hell is wrong with you? Don't you watch TV?

[newportdadde]

62. Well he thinks he is Christian, but he and many others or phonies.

Whatever that may mean to him who knows. He certainly doesn't act like a Christian in deed but frankly MANY(maybe most :shudder:) CHRISTIANS DON'T!!!! They use church as a social club a networking circle for gains in money, power and sex.

If you move to a new community it becomes an instant power base. If you commit acts you know are wrong in your heart you wrap yourself in it and ask for forgiveness... then you do it again, but all is forgiven.. again and again and again.

I ask myself how close is Bush to most Christians? I know and the answer is that he is very close in that so many are hollow. One friend of mine is a womanizer and horder of cash who wouldn't help another in need, yet is a 'strong christian' I guess because he says he is. A close Catholic friend had an affair with a married woman. Lets not even delve into work places, how many of us work with the very faithful, bible verse in the office type that sort of thing, only to be completely and horrible stabbed in the back by them with a smile.

Sorry I think the reason why Bush is considered a good Christian man by so many people is because they too are fake just like he is.

[knitter4democracy]

64. A couple of problems I have with that.

First of all, the Christian faith (which I believe in and follow) is a faith of hypocrites. We are all supposed to be like Christ, but we also believe He is without sin and is both God and Man. There's no way any of us can be perfectly like Christ all the time, so that makes us hypocrites. Honestly, that's not a bad thing to me, seeing as I don't think any human is perfect and that we should all be trying to be as good as we can.

Secondly, holding up the Beatitudes or any of Christ's teachings to any Christian, Bush or anyone else, will only show us all to be hypocrites. For example, Jesus said that even being really angry at someone and thinking about killing them is the same as actually killing them, and I don't know any Christian who hasn't broken that one at least once.

The issue is whether or not Bush believes he's a Christian on the right path or not. It is not our place to judge anyone's faith at all, but we can offer mild correction when it's needed. We can offer up the two greatest commandments, the Beatitudes, and other teachings of our Lord as examples and ask questions, but we should not judge. According to our faith, only God can do that.

[Saturday]

69. Well that's all nice talk...

but I have to judge him. That's what we do in elections. Judge the candidate. I judge him to be a person pretending to be a Christian.

[knitter4democracy]

142. There's judging and then there's judging.

It is not my place to judge his personal faith, but I can look at his works and decide that they are not in line with my faith or what I think is best for our country and then vote against him. He seems to be more hypocritical even than many politicians when it comes to faith, but I don't know where he is on the faith-walk, so I cannot judge him on that. I can only say that he seems to be crassly using faith to get votes.

[WinkyDink]

96. It's not for sissies!

Nobody said Christ's admonitions were easy to live by!

[knitter4democracy]

143. The saints sure never had it easy.

It's still not easy, and that is part of what bothers me about evangelical Christianity as it is preached today. The preachers make it sound like it's a simple decision and an easy choice, but it is anything but those.

[lonestarnot]

70. You have pointed out a root cause for our destruction in very few words!

Thanks mopaul! I like the icewater idea!

[leftofthedial]

72. the kind of "christians" who worship king george

don't give a shit about no stinking beatitudes. they'll just find some contradictory hateful section of the bible to support whatever sick agenda their "leaders" have taught them to believe in.

these people are gullible and insane.

[lukasahero]

73. I think this thread demonstrates the problem

Some definitions of "Christian" require a person simply to declare their belief in a Christian god. Other definitions require a person to live up to their beliefs. Some of us use the Bible in making the distinction (as John Kerry did during the debates): "Faith without works is dead."

Other passages in the New Testament support this definition. "If I speak with the tongues of angels but have not love, I am but a clanging gong." "That which you do to the least of these my brothers, you do also unto me."

And your own recommendation of the Beatitudes which are, for many Christians, the very heart and foundation of Christianity: "Blessed are the peacemakers... Blessed are the poor in spirit... Blessed are the meek... Blessed are the merciful..."

Throughout the New Testament, the definition of Christianity suggests self-sacrifice and service in many passages:

Philippians 2 - "Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others."

Galatians 5: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, humility, self-control: against such there is no law."

And finally, "By their fruits you will know them." Pretty much sums it up right there why so many of us feel that, regardless of what shrub proclaims himself to be, by the very words of the New Testament, he is NOT a Christian in our understanding of the word.

[Zenlitened]

74. Maybe no one is a christian. Maybe there's no such thing as a christian.

:shrug:

[Vidar]

75. "The last true Christian died on the cross." --Nietzsche

[Zenlitened]

77. Dammit. That Nietzsche guy is always stealing my ideas.

:D

[Brewman_Jax]

82. Einstein was right

"Only two things are without limit: the universe and human stupidity--and I'm not certain about the universe." (sic)

[muriel_volestrangler]

83. As pointed out in Religion/Theology a couple of days ago

(kudos to htuttle), the Nicene Creed, the basic statement of what most church members are meant to believe, doesn't say anything about how a Christian behaves. It's about Jesus being part of the Trinity, and his crucifixion and resurrection. Nothing about following what the gospels report as his teaching.

Helping your fellow humans doesn't make you Christian - it didn't make Gandhi a Christian. It makes you good. If you're also a Christian, then you become a good Christian.

[knitter4democracy]

144. Except for one part:

"He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead"

What's He going to judge us on? We aren't exactly sure, but the clues lie in His words and the words of the saints. He told us the two greatest commandments, gave us the Beatitudes, and the Great Commission. St. James tells us that faith without works is dead. Jesus said that, at the judgement, many will say to him, "Lord, Lord," (seeming to know him) who will be cast into darkness.

I know this is better in the Religion section, but I saw this and had to put in my two cents. This is what my church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, teaches about the Creed.

[muriel_volestrangler]

145. True, but he might be judging on whether we believe in him as God

It's a shame that the Nicene and other Creeds seem to concentrate on the theology. But I think that it shows you can't rule someone out as a Christian because you disagrre with how they interpret large sections of the Bible, when many churches concentrate their definition on the 'begotten not made' aspect.

[Bill McBlueState]

84. Bush supporters think the DU Christians aren't Christians

Fundamentalist Christians, who know the Bible very well and overwhelmingly support Bush, would use the Bible to argue that no Democrat can be a Christian. Why? Because Democrats believe government can be used to solve societal problems, and the fundamentalists believe Jesus is the only solution.

So fundamentalists generally agree that those who oppose Bush are not true Christians.
Christians on DU generally agree that those who support Bush are not true Christians.

As a non-Christian who doesn't consider the Bible to be more authoritative than any other book, how am I supposed to know who is a Christian and who isn't? Interpretations of the Bible vary immensely and one interpretation can flatly contradict another, so the Bible can't possibly be a useful guide. The historical evidence shows that people who call themselves Christian are just as prone to good or evil as those who do not call themselves Christian. So behavior is no guide. All we have to go on is a very simple definition: whether the individual claims to believe in the Christian God. Just like Hindus are those who claim to believe in the Hindu gods.

Bush makes that claim, so as a non-Christian, I have no reason to disbelieve him. That doesn't make me an apologist for Bush. He's still a miserable failure, no matter what religion he is.

[spanone]

85. This IS the insidious 'genius' of KKKarl Rove.

Use 'Christ' to get their attention, money and votes and then fuck them with their own votes, money, and attention.

[MindPilot]

87. Bush not only claims to be Christian, he also believes

he was directly appointed to his position by god himself.

[WinkyDink]

97. Bush ain't no Christian. He's a Moonie, like his brother.

[Az_lefty]

98. Bush is like the religious described in Mathew 23...

hypocrites, whitewashed tombs filled with dead men's bones.

[jonnyblitz]

99. i hate to break it to you all but BUSH IS A CHRISTIAN

YOU ALL don't get to deside these things. You are all as bad as the fundies when you think you can.

[WinkyDink]

101. Where's YOUR proof?

Bush's WORDS? Yeah, THEM I'll believe! HAHAHAHA!
Or did you mean his DEEDS? Oh, wait....HAHAHAHA!

[jonnyblitz]

106. because he says he is. IF i started telling DUers who are christian

that the AREN"T because i don't agree with them on issues I can hear it now. If I said something like "all people who claim to be christian who support, Paul Hackett's( DEM candidate in OH for senate) anti-immigrant rantings are not REAL CHRISTIANS I bet my post would get deleted! we don't get to decide how people define themselves. who in hell I am to decide if somebody ISN'T what they identify as? you might not agree that he/she acts like what you think one should but that doesn't mean he doesnt identify as one.

[dogday]

127. How about this analogy

My husband tells me he loves me and kisses me every morning before he leaves the house. From our home he goes to his mistress's and hooks up with her all day. Comes home at the regular time that night and kisses me on the cheek and tells me he loves me again.


Now I am supposed to believe this man loves me while all the while he is screwing another woman? I just can't see it, cuz if he loved me, he would not of screwed someone else. No matter how many times he utters the phrase it is a false phrase because of his actions...

understand?


Oh yea, this is not a true story, my husband really does love me....I think?

[dogday]

104. You have the inside scoop?

have a christian meter do you? Ye shall be judge on your works and Bush's works speak for themselves. He is trying to carve a place in History, his ego is his downfall....

[jonnyblitz]

107. well do you have a christian meter that says HE ISN'T?

crappy logic.

[dogday]

115. No just two eyes and a brain

to look at someone who would wage war that killed innocent civilians is not a christian act. Now we find out after all this we had to go now shit, was just that--shit. What kind of man rushes into mass murder?

[dogday]

103. Ye shall be decieved by one

who professes he does good works. Oh really, now who could that be?

[jonnyblitz]

108. so i guess only people who behave PERFECTLY are xians

I guess none of you who claim to be christian are really christians by your definition. none of you can define what you identify as because somebody will look at you through their own interpretation and apparently everybody gets to decide. interesting.

[dogday]

112. Everyone is deciding based on the Acts

of an individual. What do you base your assumptions on? No one defines anyone, you are defined by your actions, are you not?

[jonnyblitz]

116. sounds very subjective to me...

what is good in ones eyes might no be considered good in anothers. i know many xians think they are following their bible, which is good in their eyes, by bashing homosexuals, liberal xians who choose to ignore this pesky biblical stuff think THEY are doing good by ignoring it. so whatever. i just go by how people label themselves.

[dogday]

120. labels are made for the outside only

are they not?

[lukasahero]

126. "i just go by how people label themselves." Zell Miller anyone?

Zell calls himself a Democrat. His actions may belie that definition.

[stepnw1f]

136. Based on the Man's Actions

yes... He does not represent Christianity. Instead he mocks it and uses it's sanctity to fool people.

Is this Subjective to you?:

killing
torturing
raping
bombing
threatening
lying
cheating
stealing
starving the poor
making the rich richer

If it is your point to put Christianity down, then fine, but be clear about it.

[Goblinmonger]

149. Hate to jump in the middle of a discussion

but not if you are a calvinist. Are they not REAL christians? Acts are not what gets you into heaven and out of hell. God's whim is (read: Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God)

[Bill McBlueState]

111. what's that from?

I assume from the use of the word "ye" that you're quoting the Christian scriptures. But how is a non-Christian supposed to tell who is a Christian? Given that non-Christians view the Bible as just another book, we're not going to be convinced by a sentence you pulled from it.

[dogday]

119. Why do you assume I am a non-christian?

that is your first mistake. Ye is just something I made up, I never said it was a quote,but it is close in scripture for sure. That is your second mistake. Not looking closly at this man and his actions in the name of God is your third. You would do well do look deep into the soul of this man....

[Bill McBlueState]

122. I didn't assume that,

I didn't assume you were a non-Christian. Sorry for the confusion; I was referring to myself. As in "How am I supposed to tell who is a Christian, given that Christians can't agree among themselves on a definition?"

So I should look closely at Bush's actions in the name of God. My experience as a non-Christian is that this god's name has frequently been invoked as an excuse for violence, from ancient times through today. From my point of view, Bush's behavior is consistent with that of some Christians, and inconsistent with that of others. Since the behavior of those who call themselves Christians varies so drastically, all I have to go on is what people say they believe.

[dogday]

123. It is not up to us to judge the person, we know that

but it is up to us as citizens and as Christians to judge the "works" of this man. To really judge them and be honest about what we see... That is all I can say.

[Yollam]

110. People who believe Bush is a "Christian" are MORONS.

He's about as Christian as Pat Robertson.

[jonnyblitz]

113. ahh...calling fellow DUers who you disagree with morons

that isn't very christian of you. you must not be one. that is bad behavior. christians aren't capable of bad hehavior or comments. right?

[Yollam]

114. Are there really DUers who believe Bush is a Christian?

If so, I've got this lovely red bridge from SF to Marin County I'm selling...

[jonnyblitz]

121. i know he identifies as xian. many may argue that he doesn't

behave like a "true" christian should. in my experience as a gay man, he behaves like most xians i have encountered in my life do, so..whatever. i guess the definition of "true" christian is subjective. everybody has their own definition.

[Yollam]

131. Seems to me that if you don't follow the teachings of Christ...

...you should pretty much be disqualified.


Call me an absolutist...

[Goblinmonger]

150. There are major christain religions

that will tell you that acts/actions are not what makes you a christian but rather your acceptance of Christ as your personal savior and being born again in his blood. The acts are irrelevant. Are these religions out of the christain club?

[Yollam]

153. Christ was a teacher as much as a savior.

So yes, ignoring the former pretty much nullifies the latter, IMO, especially since all the messianic stuff was made up by others after he was murdered...

[Goblinmonger]

154. Wow

you define christianity into a pretty small group.

[Yollam]

173. I suppose - the whole concept of...

"accept Christ as your personal savior and all will be forgiven" is exactly what's wrong with mainstream Christianity, especially Protestant sects in the US. It absolves people of responsibility and creates a destructive psychological pattern of repeatedly engaging in negative behavior, then repentance.

If I had to pick a religion, I'd definitely go with one that stresses karma, because I do think it's important that people make full amends for the wrongs they've committed, and not just be forgiven carte blanche. In the world of Karma, you WILL pay back your karmic debt in full, and there is no way of getting around it.

Anyway, seriously, how can a person POSSIBLY have an "intimate relationship with Jesus" if they don't take his teachings to heart?

But hey, I'm a secular humanist and don't claim in any way to be an expert on this. I haven't read the bible since I was like 12, and the reason I stopped, was that the more I read of it, the more I got convinced that it was BS, even at that age...

[Bill McBlueState]

118. thanks

At a minimum, you've referred to the following DUers as "morons," all of whom have argued in this thread that anyone who claims to believe in the Christian god is a Christian:

beam me up scottie
Goblinmonger
trotsky
BiggJawn
Strong Atheist
jonnyblitz
and me, Bill McBlueState

Thanks for the personal attack!

[jonnyblitz]

124. can you see it if i started telling fellow DUers they aren't real

christians based on my subjective interpretation because they don't agree with this policy or that policy or have a particular viewpoint I don't agree with ? holy fuck. i would be banned from the board.

[dogday]

125. I would not call killing thousands of people a policy

He rushed to go and kill for the wrong reasons. He can call himself whatever he wants, but what a man does, speaks volumes about who he is...I don't judge the man, it is his acts that are suspect with me... More for the rich and less for the poor. Now I do know Jesus was not into that....

[jonnyblitz]

129. i have no idea what jesus would do...seems like many

others think they know and none of them seem to agree. All i know is that people who identify as xians are behaving very very badly and i am not sure if saying, "oh they are not real christians" and moving right along is a very helpful thing.

[dogday]

132. You first have to admit that Bush has done wrong...

this forum is for those who recognize that Bush has committed some atrocities already.. War, torture, spying, lying, cheating, the crimes go deep. None of those are Christian actions, none of them. He can call himself a god if he wants to, but that don't make him one....

[Yollam]

135. Are you saying there is even a remote chance that Jesus would've...

...supported an unprovoked attack against a defenseless country over made-up reasons?

Is there anything in the Bible to indicate that he would have? I don't think so.

Bush is less of a Christian than I am, and I'm an atheist.

Because even though I don't practice a religion, I wouldn't risk angering whatever deities might exist the way he has with his murderous behavior.

[Goblinmonger]

151. The bible does tell people

that they should kill unbelievers (granted mostly in the old testament, but you said "bible."). Muslims are unbelievers. Sounds like Bush is following that portion of the bible.

[Yollam]

134. Actually, that would be a blanket attack, not personal.

And I'm sorry, but if you simply take someone at face value that they are a Christian/Buddhist/Whatever just because they say so, you are at best naive.

When someone shows me some evidence that there is ANYTHING Christian about Bush (or Robertson for that matter), I may think about retracting that. Just going to church and saying "I'm a Christian" does not a Christian make. You have to walk the walk, too, IMHO.

[earth mom]

117. Thanks for pointing out the hypocrisy of Bushs' Faux Christian Charade!

As soon as the Bush faithful see through the lies and hypocrisy, our battle against these Christian frauds will pretty much be over. Too bad the corporate media whores don't show these Faux Christians for what they really are. If they did, they would have been gone a long time ago! :grr:

[Raydawg1234]

128. yeah, and He was in Skull and Bones, where they have weird occult rituals

worshiping skulls, pentagrams, and lots of other weird shit.

[warrior1]

138. I think it's a

technicality with the repub voters. It's more like your voting for your team to win, since when do you care what they're beliefs are.

[stepnw1f]

139. Kick!!! (nt)

[Rocknrule]

141. But but but...he's against gay marriage!

He's a good Christian because he hates the same people God hates!
:sarcasm:

[beam me up scottie]

148. Locking.

Besides being inflammatory, this post strongly implies that theists are morally superior to atheists. Please refrain from making this implication in the future.

[Goblinmonger]

152. Hmmmm

I wonder what would happen if somebody posted just the opposite of this OP? I wonder if that thread would get locked? Hmmm, interesting. I bet that thread would be allowed just like this one is. :mad: And Christains are the persecuted ones :sarcasm:

[beam me up scottie]

155. What are you doing up here?

Get in the back of the bus.

Hell, just get OFF the bus.

We need the room for the gay hating biblical literalists in the party.

[Goblinmonger]

158. I'm sorry

I hope I didn't cost us an election or something. Don't tell me that I made some republican mad at Democrats so that they say something on the television.

[InaneAnanity]

159. I believe Bush is a christian

Flame on.

[beam me up scottie]

160. He acts like all the christians down here.

Of course, they're not REAL christians, you know.

We have to check with the REAL christians to find out who qualifies today.

[InaneAnanity]

163. Real christians...

...should want me dead.

[Goblinmonger]

164. Oh yeah

they should be roasting marshmellows on the smoldering remains of you, BMUS, and me. Atheist s'mores--they're mmm, mmm, good.

[beam me up scottie]

169. They do.

It's just not polite to talk about it in mixed company.

[beam me up scottie]

161. Your intolerance is making the christians vote republican.

I hope you're happy with yourself.

[Goblinmonger]

165. If I'd just shut up

we could get a democrat elected and then they would fix all of my problems. Just like Kennedy did the "under god" in the pledge. That was awesome.

[beam me up scottie]

168. Oh, if we're really good, maybe we'll get to watch 99 Senators get up on

the steps and scream it out again!

I wish every fucking religious bigot would get to find out how that feels.

[thecai]

156. "The Devils Also Believe in GOD...

...and tremble".
One simple guide I use to discern "who's who" is "you'll know them by their fruits", and "the fruit of the Spirit is Love, Peace, Joy, Goodness, Kindness, Gentleness, Faithfulness, Patience, and Self-Control.
Does W produce ANY such fruit?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

157. It makes as much sense as the way fundies adored Ronald Reagan, who

acted as if he was this great Christian leader and promoter of family values when he 1) was never known to attend church during his entire two terms except possibly for weddings and funerals, and 2) wasn't on speaking terms with two of his children.

[TroubleMan]

170. The bigger the lie, the more easily it is to fool the masses with it.

nt.

[Dunvegan]

172. It's the "Mopaul Exorcism!"

mopaul wrote:

"so whenever you're confronted by bush loving jesus zombies whip out YOUR copy of the beatitudes and read it to them, one point at a time aloud while smacking them repeatedly in the face and throwing ice water on them."

[LeftCoast]

174. Locking

This thread has run its course.