Detroit is Dying...

[ScreamingMeemie]

I've lived here for almost 25 years. When we moved here, it was in the middle of Reagan's great "trickle down" economic experiment. My father was in the beer industry, pre microbrew, and things were booming there. Stroh's had bought out Schlitz and the future was promising. Beer was to places like Milwaukee what the automotive industry is to Detroit. Milwaukee had already begun to die...with the Schlitz "compound" becoming a sort of 10 acre museum.

For 7 years, here in Detroit, things were okay. Even though housing interest rates jumped into the high teens, and good jobs were hard to find (in the big 3) if you didn't "know somebody"...people survived. Stroh's died, my father lost his job, and nearly everything he had worked for for 30 years...and yet he pushed on. A small part of Detroit became infected and wasted away with the loss of the brewing industry. 8 years later he considered himself lucky to get a job, at American Axle...the automotive industry. American Axle used to be GM and then splintered off. These days he's just hoping to hold onto the 3 years he's got left until retirement.

Yes, it is sad that Ford is letting so many go...that big plants are closing their doors. But that death has been a long time coming. Small mom and pop shops that have been around for decades as suppliers to the big three have been tumbling at a rate so alarming it should be making me sick. People go home from work one day only to go back the next...and be told to grab their roll aways and, well, roll away. There's nothing here in Detroit for you...you looking for a future.

I work in the real estate industry. I appraise houses. Yes, it's booming for me...my keep is earned by the misfortune of others. I valuate the cost of their dying dreams. It's sick. These aren't big homes. These are 2 and 3 bedroom slices of hope. Taken back because there isn't a job to be had to cover a $700 a month house payment. Where are these children going?

While I am glad to see the anger at the fate of those who work for Ford, Delphi and all of the big boys...to me, it's the plane crash. Everyone cries harder over the loss of so many at once...Me, I've been crying for years over the auto wrecks...the losses of shops that employed 30-50 or so people. People who didn't have the great benefits, but were happy to have a job. Those people number in the HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS. There's the sad story. They're loss wasn't covered. No one bothered.

If you're "lucky" enough to come here for the Super Bowl...drive down Woodward...or, better yet, Gratiot Ave. See all the "For Lease" signs actually yellowing in the windows of once booming businesses.

Detroit is Dying...it has been for some time. It didn't start with the death of a few Ford plants. It only continues on.

[Slit Skirt]

1. I was born and raised in Detroit

motown era....
all of my family member's jobs were related to the big 3........
the trickle down effect will be devastating...

[ScreamingMeemie]

5. My brother in law works for Chrysler...He has slowly seen his benefits

chiseled away until they are no better than what my husband has, working for a second tier supplier.

The effects have been devastating, because so many played the part of the grasshopper, and didn't plan wisely.

[Slit Skirt]

7. from what I am hearing on Air America

people have been calling in...saying that they can make economic cars ...very fuel efficient..and that they sell them in Europe but not here....I think the big 3, like most corporations, could do a way better job if they would empower their employees and cut the ceo's and all other execs salaries

[ScreamingMeemie]

9. GM, for years, has had a way to make an electric powered car...

...but they wouldn't want that to happen.

[Slit Skirt]

12. I would love to see personal portfolios of the execs

of the big 3....got to be tied to big oil.....why else would they shoot themselves in the foot

I hope they best for you and your family....(mine too)...I know the devestation has just begun.

[SammyWinstonJack]

43. I sure that is always been true.

I would love to see the personal portfolios of the execs of the big 3...got to be tied to big oil... Not just a recent development. And they'll ring every last drop out of the American consumer.

[raccoon]

101. That explains everything. "why else would they shoot

themselves in the foot" -- in the 1970's and again in the 21st Century.

It all fits. It's not just that they're dumb as rocks and out of touch with regular American consumers.

[Carni]

47. I worked there for twelve years and what you say is true

GM was buying up the rights and shelving all those alternative designs for years.

The employees at these companies can blame the idiots running them because they drove them right into the ground IMO

[ScreamingMeemie]

52. My husband's cousin works for GM and he's the first one who told

us about this 10 years ago...That the people who worked in engineering were stunned when they did this.

[Carni]

74. I could tell some stories about that company believe me

But I would probably get hit with a lawsuit after some trolling freeper turned me in!

Suffice it to say that company is cut from the same cloth as the bush admin.

[BooScout]

34. I have seen it first hand.....

Ford is booming here in the UK........making cars that get 40-45 MPG. The big 3 did this to themselves in the States and the people helped by insisting on the big gas guzzling SUVs when they knew that eventually a gas crisis would happen.

[Selatius]

69. Why the hell didn't Ford SELL those models IN THE US???

It may not have garnered as big a revenue stream as trucks and SUVs, but when it comes to market share, it makes perfect sense. When the oil shock hit, what happened? Ford was only offering gas-guzzling SUVs, and where did consumers go? To buy Toyotas and Hondas and any firm worth its salt that was willing to offer fuel-efficient vehicles/hybrid vehicles.

They should have seen it coming, but I guess shareholder greed for short-term profits trumped common sense.

[lastliberalintexas]

84. Um, they do

The last I heard, the FORD FOCUS was the best selling vehicle in the world. In fact, Ford and GM are both posting profits when their worldwide holdings and sales are taken into account. But Americans by and large won't buy that kind of car because it isn't flashy enough, doesn't provide enough bling for a status symbol, or isn't sexy enough. Says a lot about our society that we need to find fulfillment and esteem from the things which we own.

The big 3 have improved much over the years, and do produce a number of vehicles that are good, decent cars with above average mileage. But even on DU, there are plenty of posters who swear that Ford and GM products are nothing but crap and that they would never buy anything other than their Honda or Toyota. And not just the "fuel efficient" vehicles that Honda and Toyota produce, since there are plenty even on DU who drive Honda and Toyota SUVs and minivans. Never mind the union jobs that Ford and GM employees have, or that Honda and Toyota are fairly bad union busters. The propaganda machine has worked even on some DUers.

And then there is also the suspicion that much of what GM and Ford to a lesser extent has done to themselves has been intentional. They would love to be able to move more operations overseas in low wage, non-union areas, eliminate or reduce their pension obligations and drive up profits at the expense of American workers.

Some of the blame lies with the executives, but a great deal also rests with the American consumer.

[ScreamingMeemie]

85. For the RECORD...My husband, and many others like him, don't have

union jobs to bust. They just close up shop, tell them to move on and Boom! Much of the blame lies with the propaganda that the entirety of Detroit is based upon union employment. It isn't so.

[lastliberalintexas]

88. I didn't mean that the employees and workers are

scabs or union busters. I meant that the Honda and Toyota corporations refuse to put their plants in union areas and instead often build in "right to work" states of the South. It pains me to hear people on DU arguing that Ford and GM vehicles are junk and then saying that they buy only Hondas, since that greatly hurts American workers.



I live in a blue collar part of the country as well- Southeast Texas, petrochemical and refining capital of the US. We are also one of the last union holdouts of the country, much like the Detroit area. I don't mean to imply that everyone here or there works in a union job- but the union jobs tend to raise the standard of living for everyone in the community. Once the unions are busted by Corporate America or any other corporation, the rest of us are screwed too. Just like your husband and other family.

Which is also why I get so frustrated with working class people who vote republican! :)

[ScreamingMeemie]

109. My brother in law is a Bush Voting Chrysler employee who bought

himself a house he can ill afford on an interest only payment plan. I shudder to think what is going to happen to my niece and nephew.

[lastliberalintexas]

86. And, no offense, but

I also had to point out that Ford and GM offer plenty of vehicles beyond the gas guzzling SUVs. I know, since I drive a Ford Taurus that gets 28 mpg- better than an equivalent Honda Accord. But again, it's not "sexy" enough for far too many American consumers. :shrug:

[Selatius]

110. Tell me, what model year is your car?

I'm looking at carpoint.com, and for the smallest engine for the newest model, a Taurus with 4-speed transmission gets 20 mpg in the city and 27 mpg on the highway according to the website. With an Accord, it lists city and highway mileage as 24 and 34 respectively for the smallest 5-speed engine offered with the newest model year.

[lastliberalintexas]

112. 2002 with a V6, automatic

I can travel 400 to 430 miles on a tank of gas with my refill being 14-15 gallons, averaging around 28 mpg. Sometimes better or worse, depending on how badly I've driven during that tank! :) A Honda Accord with a V6 in reality usually gets about 25 or 26.

My mother has a similar vehicle (a Sable) and only gets about 24, so maybe I just got lucky with my car. But then a friend who drives an Accord only gets about 20 with mostly city driving.

[formernaderite]

127. And they're not sexy enough for alot of democrats either

I can't tell you how many party and political meetings I've attended, and the parking lot is full of foreign cars. I don't get it. I have always bought American, to support the American UNIONIZED workers. I once made the mistake of bringing this up....the general response I got was it's none of anyone's business which items people purchase for personal use.

[ScreamingMeemie]

128. Chrysler driving girl here....Who does her homework and buys the

vehicles which are mostly built right here, in the USA. Hard to do these days, but it can be done. :hi:

[we can do it]

117. Cause The Lazy Dumb Sheeple Gotta Have Big SUVs To Pick Up Their Fast Food

[Greyhound]

133. We didn't insist on the SUVs, they were sold to us after they

virtually stopped making station wagon type vehicles. This was the direct result of our 'leaders' leaving a giant loophole in the CAFE and safety standards. Station wagons are cars and had to meet the standards, SUVs are trucks so they don't. Cheaper to build and much higher profit per unit and no alternative. Typical corporate 'strategy'.

[skipos]

59. Detroit had the opportunity to vote out corruption (Kilpatrick)

and we passed. Too bad.

[ScreamingMeemie]

66. ...and sell off Woodward to Oakland County. It was two evils

against each other. What would you have done?

[skipos]

77. I think corruption should always be voted out.

Kilpatrick had his shot and he blew it. Detoiters sent a message to politicians last November: if you are corrupt we will probably forgive you.

[ScreamingMeemie]

79. And if Freeman was just as corrupt? Which he was?

Do you know what his plans were? Oakland County would have benefited from his election, and not the city of Detroit.

[skipos]

89. Kilpatrick was the corrupt mayor of Detroit up for re-election

Hendrix was not. He had his chance and blew it. Hendrix did not have his chance.

When something isn't working (a crappy, corrupt mayor) and things aren't getting better (Detroit) I opt for change, even if it involves some risks (Hendrix).

Detroiters chose to "stay the course" with Kilpatrick, even though he is a terrible mayor. If and when Detroit is still on the decline after a decade of Kilpatrick, the blame will rest with the people who voted him back into office, despite the fact that he was clearly inneffective and corrupt.

[ScreamingMeemie]

92. Freeman was busy making back room deals with Oakland Co.

He would have been elected but for a well placed negative campaign ad. There were no good candidates in that race.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[zalinda]

2. I haven't been to back to Detroit in years

I was born in Detroit, and grew up in Warren. I hate that Detroit is dying, but it's dying here in Syracuse too. I have been here for about 20 years and I have never seen so many for sale/lease signs on business buildings. I think it going on all over the place. It is a real shame.

zalinda

[ScreamingMeemie]

4. Weirdly enough, as a child, I lived in Syracuse (Clay area).

Detroit right now is suffering at three times the rate of the rest of the country. Job loss=3 x higher. Foreclosures=3 x higher. Credit card deliquencies=3 x higher...and yet, no one talked about it...until Ford decided to do something big enough to make it on the front pages. :hi:

[acmejack]

8. I worked at Electronics Park for GE

and lived in the Village of North Syracuse which was in the Township of Clay in the mid and late eighties. I saw Allied and Fisher Guide give up the ghost there.

[ScreamingMeemie]

10. When I lived there I was a child. Mid to late 70's. In the era of PennCan

mall. Bear Road Elementary is my alma mater. :)

[zalinda]

96. PennCann mall is basically gone

It's been gutted so much that it almost doesn't exist. I think a car dealership occupies most of the mall. Clay is the only area that seems to be getting a building boom, as far as business goes.

Although, if the Destiny project goes through, it could change things around. But that's in the courts right now.

zalinda

[zalinda]

95. You would not believe the changes here

Route 31 has become a boom area for businesses. Lots of places going in there. Walmart, Sam's Club, Target, Wegman's, Great Northern Mall, and that's the old places from 2 years ago. I keep reading that they are adding this store and that store, but I haven't gone up that way for a couple of years or so, so I can't tell which ones. But on Erie Blvd here in Syracuse, more and more buildings are empty.

zalinda

[Fovea]

3. I am so sorry to hear that

I hope that soon, the price of gas will bring back commuter rail in a big way, because Detroit is a perfect place for that industry to be.

[ScreamingMeemie]

6. Right now, Detroit's Amtrak station is a mobile home on the side of the

road..can you believe that, for such a big city? And as far as subway's go, we have "The People Mover" an elevated tram thing that only circles around the New Center, Circus Park, Greektown, Cobo areas.... I am stunned over that. :hi:

[shugah]

29. it makes sense in a strange way

detroit has always been about cars and people in the area are encouraged to drive.

when we had relatives from detroit visit us in the DC area some years ago, they were mystified by HOV lanes.

[ScreamingMeemie]

30. You know....I am always stunned by the efficiency of other cities...

be it their subway systems (DC has the best), their freeways, even their airports. You know, shugah, you are absolutely right...We are encouraged to drive, with the poor infrastructures of most of our suburbs, the planning of our airport...you name it.

[shugah]

38. well, i don't know about efficiency

the traffic in DC is among the worst in the country, even with HOV lanes and the metro. that is one pleasure i have in my return to michigan - you can actually get from place to place in a timely fashion by driving. the roads in DC double as parking lots, really, during rush hour (which usually lasts about 3 hours on either side).

people in DC talk about traffic the way most populations talk about the weather - 'tis a source of continuous conversation. i guess i haven't gotten over the need to complain about the traffic yet ;-)

on a sad note, and in keeping with your original post - i was dreading the planned construction at the wixom exit off 96, the plant traffic is bad enough without detours, but now, not a problem.

i naively believed that the wixom assembly plant would never close. :cry:

[ScreamingMeemie]

55. We've lost two tires to potholes this year...and alignments are

a must. ;) One would think that the motor city would at least take care of its roads.

It is a very sad state of affairs shugah.

[scarface2004]

11. too bad

that s what you get when you vote republican..which i m sure all the fat cat execs at the auto companies do.

[ScreamingMeemie]

13. But, unfortunately, it's not what a lot of people who pay the actual price

are doing.

[herbbrown]

16. Hey we're Blue here

Regardless of how the fat cats are voting this is still very much a union town. But the bottom line is if we don't get National Health Care the car companies are finished, and they know it.

[shugah]

31. detroit is solidly democratic

detroit is what keeps michigan blue.

[imperialismispasse]

50. Dude Detroit carries Michigan, makes it blue in national elections

Dont be an ass okay?

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sarcasmo]

62. He is correct about Detroit making the whole state Blue.

Where I live in West Michigan it is hard core Christian Right Wing zealots. The U.P. and lower upper usually have the votes split down the middle.

[ScreamingMeemie]

76. But...."Detroit" extends pretty far North. In other words, blue collar

workers live (and vote blue) 100's of miles north of Detroit...on the whole, in large factions.

[JVS]

115. In 2000 I believe the percentages were Gore 95% Bush 3% and Nader 2%...

in Detroit

[Zynx]

14. My father was born in Detroit in 1949.

When he compares the modern Detroit to the Detroit of the 1950s, it is clear to me that what Detroit once was IS dead. It began in the late 1960s and was accelerated greatly by the recessions and other problems of the 1970s and early 1980s when unemployment sometimes got up to 30% in the Detroit metro area. All that remains are the husks of the formerly great auto companies and we don't know how long they have.

[ScreamingMeemie]

17. It began in earnest in the 80's when Detroit standards like Stroh's,

Hudson's, Vernors and Faygo began struggling. Chrysler is such a European company now that my brother in law says his job is a joke. They are basically being paid to wait until they are let go. :(

[shugah]

73. hudson's

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[ScreamingMeemie]

81. That was a horrible, horrible day...and they ran HOURS of coverage

as if it was a big party. When the store was closing, we went down to walk through one last time,during the massive clearance sale...and just felt really sad. :( All my husband's Santa Claus pictures were taken there.

[DemExpat]

15. This must be tough to watch...but time for city government

to look at how many European cities have rejuvenated in the last decades after the end of the Industrial Era.

For example:

Glasgow
Liverpool
Berlin
Antwerp...

and many more. Google these cities with rejuvenation and there are lots of positive stories there, sponsored by private and public investments.


DemEx

[ScreamingMeemie]

19. It's sickening to watch. On the up side, several smaller communities

Down River (South of Detroit) have incorporated and really made strides...and it shows.

[Bridget Burke]

90. Who will invest in Detroit?

Berlin was almost destroyed by the Allies. Antwerp was hit by more V-2's than any other city during WWII. But slow neglect can be as destructive as war, with fewer interested in helping rebuild.

I'm sure the Feds would consider this pure pork. Are there any private investors who care?

Yes, the rebirth of a city is possible & certainly desirable. But it is not encouraged in Bush's USA.

(By the way--I'd invest if I could. One grandfather came from Detroit; I only saw the city once, many years ago.)

[Libby2]

18. So is Flint Michigan

[ScreamingMeemie]

20. I write of that which I have first hand experience in...Flint was dead

when I moved here in the early 80's. Doesn't make it right, but, the death of Detroit isn't going to help much with the rejuvination of Flint. :( Buick screwed Flint. Remember AutoWorld?

[hatrack]

23. "Me and my Buddeeeeeeeeeee!" Who could forget Auto World?

:eyes:

I wonder if they'll even allow the camera to stray beyond the confines of the stadium on Super Bowl Sunday.

[ScreamingMeemie]

26. Well....they put that giant Super Bowl XL sign wrapped around the RenCen

up...so we'll probably get to see that. :eyes: :hi:

[leeroysphitz]

46. Don't bet on it...

All the money spent on the superbowl in this town has been spent on the route from the airport to the stadium. Everything else has been ignored and the decay has been allowed to continue unabated.

[sarcasmo]

63. Flint has been dead since the 80's.

[JohnnyRingo]

21. I guess I can relate....I'm a delphi retiree

Which these days is like saying "I'm between jobs".

The spin-off of suppliers is a clever strategy to get someone else to build the cars while the big three finance and sell them. That's where the money is.

The big catch phrase for auto industry suppliers is "least expensive country". The manufacturers don't care where they make the parts, as long as they don't have to pay more than "LEC".

The gutting of our manufacturing workforce is a trend that doesn't allow for greed. It only works if everyone doesn't practice outsourcing. Once they do, there's no one left to buy the products.

[ScreamingMeemie]

22. My husband works for a supplier. They are all getting caught up in

the bidding wars...to the point where they are almost paying GM, Williams etc...to make the part. To the point where they have brought in time study engineers (would you believe) to figure out how to make my husband and his coworkers more efficient programmers. Here's the problem...not one of the fat cats is willing to cut out the overhead that comes in the shape of a Cadillac Escalade or Lincoln Navigator...

[AuntiBush]

24. Ford Founder Found Crawling out of Grave

He grew weary of tossing & turning in it, no disrespect intended there.

This is heartbreaking. New Orleans, media attacks on San Francisco, town in PA (voted out what was it, 9 locals wanting Intelligent Design), others I can't even count & now the final blow to Detroit.

With 9-12 trillion Pentagon dollars missing, poof-gone to Iraq, billions & billions spent weekly to rebuild Iraq (WHAT) infrastructures no corp. or company can even bid on (Halliburton & Co has it all tied-up) after blowing them to up to kingdom-come, Katrina and on and on... We can't even rebuild our own cities.

But you can bet * will get every last dime out of our Treasury that goes to (WHAT)? It's unaccounted for, not included in the budget or deficit.

How much more can this country take. It's as if they're willfully destroying us from the inside out, and outside in.

[ScreamingMeemie]

36. Less and less people are gleefully going about their lives cheerfully

here. We've got that small gift...but I fear it's too late. When I moved here, Detroit's pop was somewhere around 1.4 mil...It now stands at @900,000 and shrinking. :(

[AuntiBush]

104. Can it Get Any Sadder?

I mean, really. My heart breaks right with ya, up there.

Let me share in your saddness: :(

[enid602]

25. Bush

Weel, I guess with New Orleans, we've now lost TWO (2) major US cities under Bush's tutelage. How many more?

[ScreamingMeemie]

40. It is my belief that all of our major cities are at some stage in this

dying period.

[AngryAmish]

53. Chicago is doing fine

[ScreamingMeemie]

54. My cousin was forced to move out of Chicago when the medical supply

business began its slide. Chicago wasn't doing fine for her. :(

[SupplyConcerns]

114. I was at a city of Chicago committee meeting this afternoon

They are in the early stages of creating an action plan to make the businesses in the city more "sustainable". I was a consultant, advising them in how to go about the process. I came away feeling fairly optimistic about the way the city is run, and where their priorities lie when it comes to the enviornment and insultating the city from the effects of any potential "oil crash".

[RandomKoolzip]

119. Chicago is a great city.

Their Public Library system, to name just one example, is thriving and expanding, reversing the national trend. Places have "Now Hiring" signs in the windows and everyone I know votes Dem (or Green) and keeps informed politically and culturally. I don't see the 'Dteroit Effect" happening to Chicago any time soon.

[ScreamingMeemie]

124. Unfortanately, I do. The South side is in worse ruin than ever...

As mentioned above, the medical supply industry is going bust do to NAFTA...No city will escape this.

[Greyhound]

132. Have you seen this post?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x245843
I tried to live in Chicago for over a year. Was lured there with the promise of work, so I sell everything and leave LA. Once I arrive the "employer" gives me the run around for 6 weeks or so and then, nothing, no job (there never was one, they thought they were going to need someone like for a potential project that never materialized) Rents were as high or higher than LA, it is the most corrupt city I've ever lived in (BTW if you don't 'know somebody' you can just forget about it), and the weather sucks.
On the plus side, the libraries, museums, and public transportation are fantastic, and the food is still good and relatively cheap.

[SupplyConcerns]

134. With all due respect to that person

I probably won't move to a city seeking work without "knowing somebody" there first. Fortunately, I do have connections with potential employers in Chicago. (I'm in college now, btw)

[Greyhound]

135. Sorry, but I don't see how your knowing people in Chicago means

that Chicago is doing great. As for myself, I moved to take a position that they lied about having.

[enid602]

27. Bush

Weel, I guess with New Orleans, we've now lost TWO (2) major US cities under Bush's tutelage. How many more?

[enid602]

28. Bush

Weel, I guess with New Orleans, we've now lost TWO (2) major US cities under Bush's tutelage. How many more?

[ScreamingMeemie]

32. Crap..editing period over....They're loss...should read They're the loss.

Thank you.

[livetohike]

33. I watched it happen in Pittsburgh

when the steel industry started its slide into oblivion around 1983. My Dad and Grandfather made their living in the mill.

It was exactly as you have described and Billy Joel's "Allentown" could have been my theme song.

That said. "GO STEELERS"!

Well we're living here in Allentown
And they're closing all the factories down
Out in Bethlehem they're killing time
Filling out forms
Standing in line.

Well our fathers fought the Second World War
Spent their weekends on the Jersey Shore
Met our mothers in the USO
Asked them to dance
Danced with them slow
And we're living here in Allentown.

But the restlessness was handed down
And it's getting very hard to staaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
aaaaaaah aaahhhhh ooooooooh ooooooh ohhhhhhh.

Well we're waiting here in Allentown
For the Pennsylvania we never found
For the promises our teachers gave
If we worked hard
If we behaved.

So the graduations hang on the wall
But they never really helped us at all
No they never taught us what was real
Iron and coal
And chromium steel.

And we're waiting here in Allentown.

But they've taken all the coal from the ground
And the union people THROW IT awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah aaaaaaaaaaah aaaaaah.

Every child had a pretty good shots
To get at least as far as their old man gots.

But something happened on the way to that place
They threw an rubby red flag in our face
aaaaaah aaaaaaaaaah faaaaaaaccccceee oh oh oh.

Well I'm living here in Allentown
And it's hard to keep a good man down.

But I won't be getting up todaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy
aaaaaaaaaaah aaaaaaaaaaah aaaaaaaaah.

*solo*

aaaaaaah aaaaaaah aaaaaaah oh oh oh.

And it's getting very hard to staaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

And we're living here in Allentown.

[ScreamingMeemie]

35. That song always makes me cry.

Always.

Go Steelers. I've got nobody in it this year anyway. :hi:

[livetohike]

45. Me too, it makes me cry

Thank you Mrs. G. :hi:

Pittsburgh will never have a Super Bowl in town. It has to be a little exciting to have the big game in your town. Maybe it will bring in a lot of cash to help revitalize things.

[Strawman]

37. And Bush's base actually gets off on it

That's the sick part. To them the fact that this is happening to "New Fallujah" is nothing more than the premise for their hateful jokes.

The Bush Administration basically is saying "drop dead." I guess that's a message that plays well to Limpballs' audience in the ass crack (I mean "heartland") of America.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060124/pl_nm/autos_ford_congress_dc_1;_ylt=AixwJ6WuFabhksNDjs_HR4TlyREB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

"The Bush administration does not support substantial government help for U.S. auto companies similar to the cash bailouts and other industry specific steps taken by Congress to help financially ailing U.S. airlines.

However, in 1979, under then-President Jimmy Carter, the federal government guaranteed $1.5 billion in loans to Chrysler Corp., then the No. 3. U.S. auto maker. Chrysler repaid the loans in five years. In 1998, Germany's Daimler-Benz took over Chrysler in a deal then valued at about $35 billion.

Traveling with President George W. Bush to Kansas on Monday, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the administration is concerned about job cuts in any industry.

"What we've got to do is make sure that we focus on making sure workers have the skills they need to be able to fill the kind of jobs that are being created," McClellan said.

Treasury Secretary John Snow has said that U.S. auto companies were "a lot better than the federal government" at addressing their cost problems."

[ScreamingMeemie]

41. Bingo. If they "cared" they would have stopped this bleed. If they "cared"

incentives would have also gone to the smaller suppliers come tax time to make it beneficial for them to remain in business and offer benefits of some sort to their employees.

And here we sit. I'm just North of Detroit in St. Clair Shores, Strawman.

[Strawman]

56. I'm in Sterling Heights

I live in one of those three bedroom brick ranches that you're talking about people losing all over the place. Macomb County especially is going to be devastated.

Many of my friends, their parents, and probably the majority of my neighbors work in those little shops or in one of the auto plants.

Yet every couple months in Oakland County it seems like new luxury condos, subdivisions of million dollar homes, and new ritzy restaurants are popping up. In my opinion, these people who all this is being built for aren't "entrepeneurs" for the most part. Entrepeneurs build things. They don't just inflate stock prices and cash in. These people are parasites killing off their working class hosts.

[jmowreader]

49. The kinds of jobs that are being created don't require "skills"

The biggest generator of jobs in Bush's economy is Wal-Mart.

Anything you need to know to work at Wal-Mart, they will teach you--and I think they'd much rather you NOT come in with any "skills" related to what they do; this way you'll do things the Wal-Mart Way, not the Target Way or the Lowe's Way. Or worse, the "little mom and pop two blocks down the street that Wal-Mart put out of business" way.

The second-biggest generator of jobs in Bush's economy is Defense Support Contracting--handling the beans, bullets and bandaids so the soldiers who used to do it can go on patrol. There you need skills, but they're skills you can only learn by having been in the army.

So yeah, Scotty McClellan remains as full of shit as a septic tank.

[Strawman]

57. That's exactly right

Scotty's statement rings as hollow as Poppy's ironic "Message: I care."

[Kolesar]

39. 800,000 retirees at the Big Three. 1000 at the plants of foreign makes

$1200/year health care costs at Ford. $450 at the foreign makes. Structural problems are killing our companies more than quality or style.

[ScreamingMeemie]

42. ...and think about all those people who were just as skilled, working

in the supply industry. Enough to make a person vomit.

[Nightflurry]

44. People do forget

People do forget about the small businesses all the time, and I think it's very important we remember them. Awhile back I read in the Free Press that for every Big 3 employee there were 8 other employees (suppliers, shippers, etc) dependant on that Big 3 guy's job. When the Ford or GM employee gets laid off, 8 other people are either laid off or in serious hot water.. the news never talks about that. Everytime Ford or GM cuts jobs I mentally multiply it out in my head.

Detroit isn't dying, Detroit is dead and rotting. I wish there were an easy fix but the problem is so comlicated. It can't even all be blamed on Raygun.. White Flight and the resulting property value and tax revenus losses are some of the biggest reasons. There are a lot of causes for why Detroit died, and I can't see any solutions.

[oasis]

48. Speaking of "lucky", former Detroiter,and NFL star Jerome Bettis will be

taking his Pittsburg Steelers there for the big game. "It's a great city" Bettis said of Detroit.

The clueless idiot is a Republican who was singing the praises of Bush before the 2004 election.

[ScreamingMeemie]

70. I hope he takes a drive down the Southfield Freeway...or through

the Houston Whittier area while he's here.

[UrbScotty]

51. That's why WE NEED DeVOS!!!!!

Grannholm refuses to finish off the city.

Remember, Detroit is mostly black! We need someone like Dick DeVos to help finish it off!

:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

[sarcasmo]

64. Devos if elected will finish off Detroit. A hard core wealthy Republican.

The kind who will be backed by Bush and the neocons to finish off the auto industry and organized labor.

[ScreamingMeemie]

71. I think Ih8 clearly marked his post as sarcasm...

:hi:

[sarcasmo]

75. It's not sarcasm when it's TRUE. Devos has the money to win.

[ScreamingMeemie]

78. It is not TRUE that Detroit needs Devos though.

[sarcasmo]

83. Detroit does not need him, but if elected he will finish them off.

You are correct in the fact that Detroit does not need him. I live in West Michigan, Devos has his Repuke name stamped on everything. The man is a greedy Repuke who would love to do nothing more than destroy the union.

[earth mom]

105. You hit the nail on the head.

This ain't about anything other than killing off the unions! :grr:

[KamaAina]

99. But didn't God intend for it to be a chocolate city?

:sarcasm:

Seriously, post-Katrina, many rather unflattering comparisons have been made between New Orleans and Detroit. Perhaps the two, and some of the other places mentioned here (I'll throw in Bridgeport and Waterbury, Conn.) could form an alliance, a sort of Hanseatic League of older blue-collar cities.

[ScreamingMeemie]

103. You know, some of the smaller blue collar towns downriver from

Detroit have done just that. And it's worked with moderate success. Sister cities wouldn't really be a bad idea. I cannot believe (sadly, now I can) that people live in some of the houses I drive by in a day's work.

[Jim__]

60. I don't think it's only Detroit.

Nor is it only the automobile industry.

I work in the software industry. It's being off shored. All American manufacturing is being off shored. Right now, people can find lower paying jobs in the service industry. But, when we're no longer making anything, we will no longer have anything to trade for goods manufactured overseas. Where we are headed as a nation is obvious.

Unfortunately, the rich are getting richer. And no one in power is concerned about the fate of the unrich.

[ScreamingMeemie]

68. This is an illustration. People, in much smaller jobs, have been

losing big for a very long time. I believe this is a problem across the board, Detroit just has it worse than most. Three times the job loss, three times the foreclosures...

[Theres-a]

61. Someone told me the other day

How well Detroit was doing.Casinos,new baseball stadium,new football field,etc. This person has never been to detroit.I haven't been back for 4 years,but when I went back last time,it was sad.Mother still lives there,gets her car stolen fairly regularly.I want to remember it the way it was.Hudson's, Faygo,Stroh's Vernors and all.PS even St. Clair shores seemed different.Is Cedar Gardens still there?I love their food!!!!!!!!

[ScreamingMeemie]

65. The casinos are a flaming disaster!

Wow! Yes! I eat at Cedar Gardens all the time. It's the best Middle Eastern restaurant outside of Dearborn.

Small world.

[Theres-a]

80. Speaking of flaming

You know what else I miss? Flaming cheese at Pegasus!There really are no ethnic foods here in CT.All the Greek restaurants serve Italian food.It's something of a phenomena,really.How about Fishbone's?Alligator and Crawfish etouffe,mmmmm.......Oh, and Stroh's Blue Moon flavor ice cream.And a Vernor's float.And an Onassis Coney island with everything.I think I need to come visit,or maybe it's just time for some breakfast...I envy your menus,Mrs.G!!!!!!!

[Obamarama]

67. You fail to mention Coleman Young as a contributor to the downward spiral

He had one too many terms and was not equipped to handle all the changes that were assembled at the gates of this once fine city. I'm not suggesting Detroit is what it is today solely because of Young. I just think he was at the helm for far too long. But, I suspect fresher ideas and perspectives would have helped stave off the demise of Detroit until some sound strategies could have been implemented to salvage the city from ruin.

[Catt03]

72. During these days, everything is "follow the money"

Sooooo....

General Motors
General Motors is the world’s top manufacturer of cars and trucks, producing domestic models including Buick, Cadillac and Chevrolet. The company also owns a credit finance company, which offers auto loans to consumers, and Hughes Electronics, better known as DirecTV. GM, which donates most of its money to Republicans, lobbies on plenty of issues key to automakers, including international trade, auto safety rules and fuel efficiency standards for cars and trucks. In addition, it has been a leading proponent of legislation to toughen personal bankruptcy laws.

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/toprecips.asp?ID=D000000155&Type=P&Sort=A&Cycle=2004

The above does not INCLUDE soft money...God knows how much that is.

I feel for the people of Michigan as my family is a survivor of the Flint destruction. They just got out way back when it began. However, with outsourcing, arrogance and greed, bankrupcy is karma for me. Or they can ask George for a loan.

[cantstandbush]

82. Unfortunately, the nation is dying too. Only the K-street lobbyists

are thriving and the CEOs of corporations. What's wrong with America? When will the people wake up. It started with the breaking of the Air Traffic Controllers' union and in time there will not be any jobs for middle America. Then the next revolution.

[linazelle]

87. Very touching essay. Nominated. nt

[Blue_Tires]

91. I've been to Detroit a few times (media pass for NAIAS)

and I'm a big 'car guy', and it is very sad for me to see a once-proud unionized industry cut and run for the cheaper wages in asia

[Batgirl]

93. born and raised in Flint

and still live here because of family obligations -- aging, ailing parents and shared child custody arrangements. Otherwise I would vamoose the state because of the horrible economy and job market. I heard Michigan has the worst economy in the nation except for the areas that were hit by Katrina.

My spouse and I commuted to the Oakland County/Metro Detroit area for the past 15 years along with tens of thousands of other Flintoids. (Most of the employment opportunities up here being of the Jiffy Mart/$6-an-hour ilk.) But now that big economic engine is also starting to sputter and seize up.

This Salon article puts some of the blame for bad auto exec management decisions on the fact that Wall Street actually rewards short-term thinking, and penalizes efforts to plan ahead: http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/

"Ford's dilemma is intriguing to look at through the lens of globalization. As noted here before, back in the mid-'90s, both Ford and G.M. would have been well advised to prepare for the obviously imminent era of high oil prices by bringing to market stylish, fuel-efficient vehicles instead of rolling out ever more humongous SUVs. But Wall Street doesn't reward companies for long-term thinking -- it always puts the premium on what-is-your-stock-price-doing-for-me-now?"

"Still, there's little doubt that for a Ford or G.M., competing against companies that have a lower healthcare overhead and employ non-union labor is challenging. Which makes this a classic global economy conundrum: Yet another American industry is not proving up to the task of surviving in an era in which globalization has eviscerated union power and brought relentless price pressure to bear. (We'll ignore for now that Ford actually earned a profit last year, worldwide, but still plans to slash 34,000 jobs and close 14 plants.)"

snip
"What if government had taken a stronger role, requiring, for example, significantly higher fuel economy in new cars, or mandating that some percent of Ford's sales be hybrids? Would that have pushed Ford in the right direction? Or, more promisingly, what if the Bush administration had taken a leading role in solving the healthcare crisis, either by assuming a larger burden of costs, or fundamentally fixing a clearly broken system?

Maybe. But looking at those enormous profits from 1999, one is doubtful. Ford and G.M. bet on greed and wasteful extravagance when the going was good, and failed to prepare for the future. Many thousands of workers will pay the price. But don't blame high oil prices or healthcare or foreign competition. Blame stupid decisions by Ford executives. The company is making cars that Americans don't want to buy. That's not China's fault, it's not free trade's fault, and it's certainly not Toyota's fault."

[ScreamingMeemie]

102. Excellent read. Thank you Batgirl...

The one thing they didn't do, was treat the workforce as anything but worker ants. Same as it ever was.

[longship]

94. A Detroiter by birth.

I was born and raised in Detroit--my first thirty-five years. And when I say Detroit, I do not mean Birmingham, but south of Eight Mile Road. I graduated from Cooley High in 1966. The city of my childhood is no longer in existance. The population of Detroit in 1950, two years after my birth, was 1,894,568. It's population now is estimated by the US Census to be 900,000. In other words, in my life, Detroit has lost over half its population, a million people have left the city to never return.

Detroit has been dealt a triple blow. In the 1960's and 1970's there was white-flight. When neighborhoods began becoming integrated, white folks fled to the suburbs like lemmings. When my family moved out of the city upon my parents retirement in the early 80's they were one of two caucasian families in the neighborhood. It was the same pleasant neighborhood I grew up in, with families supporting other families. The only difference was the color of the people living there. The neighborhood had been peacefully integrated for years. It was a very nice place to grow up.

The second stroke was the 1970's oil crisis which clobbered the car companies. Of course, it was their own mindless devotion to gas guzzling, fall-apart rubbish that gave rise to that. People moved out of the city when they lost their jobs. My father lost his career and his pension after thirty-five years of seniority with the same tool and die company. He tried to find another job--with his experience he should have been a shoe-in. But nobody wanted to hire a guy in his mid-fifties, regardless of his qualifications. Regardless, my family remained in the city for a few years more, until my mother retired.

Now, the third strike happens. The auto companies have repeated their precise mistake of the 70's. They insist on manufacturing gas-guzzling SUV's and large pick-up trucks, to the exclusion of what the public is demanding. This will not go well for my fair home town.

A city which has lost a million people is not a pretty sight. I feel very sad for my home town. In the early 1980's there was a common saying in SouthEastern Michigan, "The last person out of Detroit should not forget to turn off the lights when he leaves." What a waste of what was once a vibrant and wonderful place to live.

[Bushwick Bill]

97. I would give anything...

to have seen Detroit when it was the Paris of the Midwest. I am afraid we are going to have a ghost town in ten years if Ford and/or GM file for bankruptcy. :-(

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

98. Detriot is the first american city to fall in the post-industrial US

I was having this exact conversation with a friend 2 nights ago! Thanks for the Great, but sad, read Mrs. Grumpy :bounce:

[oc2002]

100. It will spread to the rest of the country..I give it 10-15 years more less

the new world order is one of social darwinism, it will lead to more poverty worldwide.

[noonwitch]

106. I work in Detroit, and lived there until 2001

I still live just over 8 Mile in Warren.

It's hard to watch. I didn't grow up here, but had grandparents here until the 80s, then moved to the area in 1987 and have been here since. I'm a social worker, too, and all my clients are Detroiters.

I don't blame any single person or entity for what happened to Detroit. It was a huge combination of factors, mostly the bottoming out of the auto industry combined with extreme poverty and white people's unwillingness to live with black neighbors after decades of de facto segregation.

I do know this-after watching the way the Bush administration handled Hurricane Katrina and New Orleans, I am very grateful that Detroit is not prone to natural disasters. If something like that happened here, it would be even worse, believe it or not. Detroit is poorer and blacker than New Orleans. The only difference is that Detroit is easier to escape from in an emergency, because there are more roads out of town.

[alfredo]

107. Fantastic site about Detroit

http://detroityes.com/home.htm

I lived in the Cass Corridor from 1970 to the spring of 1975. I lived at the Boone's Farm Commune house part of the time. I hung out at Cobbs Corner, and drove cab for American Cab.

I lived a bit in Pontiac. What a sad town. If you ever wondered what happened to the KKK, it was there.

I saw Detroit crumble under the corrupt leadership pre Coleman Young. He was new to office when I packed my belongings on my bicycle and headed south back to Kentucky. I miss Detroit, It had spirit.


I really believe that the White Stripes CD "Elephant" caught the Detroit sound and attitude of that era. Reminds me of groups like The Dogs, The Fruit, MC5, Tacklebox, Suzie Quatro, and the Bob Seeger System.

[Pathwalker]

108. "Will the last person out of Michigan turn out the lights?"

Remember that bumper sticker from the Reagan era? Maybe it's time to revive it.
All of Michigan is hurting - GM closed some plants in Lansing, too, and everyone here is still in shock.
Your last sentence says it all, and it's a tragedy to see.

[MichiganVote]

111. Nah, we just need the republicans to pack up and leave

Then we'll pick up the pieces. Michigan is a good state corrupted by the leavings of the Engler administration and frankly, the auto industry has taken as good as its given.

[sbj405]

113. I grew up outside Detroit, My parents have worked for suppliers for years

It's sad. They are both worried about their jobs. They are too old to change fields or get hired anywhere else, but not old enough to retire. Driving through Detroit reminds me of driving through third world countries. Incredibly sad.

Someone my mom works tried to get a home equity loan. In the 60 day process, the value of the house dropped over 10%. Sad becuase their homes are some the only thing these people have in terms of investment or retirement.

[bleedingheart]

116. I hear ya...I live in Pittsburgh....when the Steel Industry died...

it was awful...it has taken almost 30 years to recover and we still aren't there yet...

Detroit has my sympathies...

[ikojo]

118. Look at Flint and you can see the future of

Detroit and many other towns dependent upon manufacturing jobs. Those jobs tended to be unionized and pay good wages. The Ford plant in Hazelwood MO is closing in March. There are approx 1100 employees there. They make very good wages. Not only are they going to find it hard to find jobs at those wages and with those benefits but what about the downstream effect on the business around the Ford plant that provided lunches to the employees on their lunch hour? What about the houses these people may lose because they no longer have that nice union job with the union negotiated wage. Yes, they will be paid to part of 2007 but that will come before you know it.

[TheModernTerrorist]

120. I grew up in Flint

during the early 80's, my best friend lives in downtown Detroit, and I currently live in Lansing (and went to MSU). There are very few places in urban/suburban Michigan that require more than 5-10 minutes of driving to see people living in desperate conditions.
If anyone wants to see how close to death Detroit really is, drive down Plymouth right where it meets Grand River...
I get depressed just thinking about it.

[ScreamingMeemie]

123. Another sad area is Houston-Whittier...where the extremely affluent

live mere feet (I'm not kidding) from some of the city's poorest. My mother in law grew up on Ashland, which used to be a beautiful street...abutting Grosse Pointe. They've closed down the bridges across the canal...to keep out undesirables. :(

[Theres-a]

129. Small world again

I grew up on Ashland.67-89.When I was a kid it was a nice place.By the time I was a teen,it was full ghetto.We finally moved in 89,but not before it turned to hell.(Between Mack and Warren).I remember that hideous wall,too.

[ScreamingMeemie]

130. Wow! Really small.

My mother in law lived there in the 50's until her father died. Then they moved to the "wooden projects" over by the Davison. Another place that is just in ruins. It's like entering the twilight zone. :(

[Theres-a]

131. Ruins

I saw a lot of those last time I came to visit.I think my Grandma bought the house in the 50's.(She died in 78)Maybe they were neightbors.The entire house and once beautiful yard are gone now. Like it was never there.Grandma's beautiful Roses,Lilacs,Trees. There is not one tree on that whole block now.Mom lives near St.John's hospital,and it's really getting awful.Old businesses are all gone,either for good ,or to the burbs.

[Maddy McCall]

121. Kicked and Rec'd

[PATRICK]

122. Detroit in the late sixties

Not to get into the civil strife and fires, the racism, distrust and all. Just what I saw. The bus station was at the center of the donut. Looking out over the city was looking over a recent war zone in a poor country. From that we were transported to the donut ring, suburbs richer beyond belief than upstate NY, shiny, new, utterly different yet somehow ominous and unhealthy because conjoined to the reality it bounded. The auto workers seemed like a privileged upper class compared to postal workers, paid miserably back then.

They had a lot. They had an attitude toward the center that was more than racist, more than fearful. it was an organic mega condition, a mood I would not like to have moved into.

What did I really know about the whole city? Nothing. It was just a powerful gut emotion about haves surrounding an inner wasteland of have nots. Since then the donut "theory" has shown how disastrous in tangible ways it is to have the ring ignore the city proper. It always seemed written in the heart that the blight could spread from the center but the ring would never restore its disinherited core.

[Hubert Flottz]

125. Washington smells like it died about 5 years ago!

I think the 5 republican hacks on the Supreme Court passed a death sentence on the entire country and the free world on 12/12/2000.

[SoCalDem]

126. The rust-belt cities have "states righters" to thank for a lot of the woes

Southern states wooed manufacturing giants BIGTIME..


no unions down here
lots of cheap labor down here
nice weather down here
no pesky environmental rules down here
lots of cheap land down here

and so they left..

of course after a while, even those jobs got downsourced to mexico..and then to India..and now to china..

corporations are always chasing the next cheap "deal"..

and we just let them..time after time..