Was the Roman Empire a good thing or bad thing for the world?

[Toots]

At least Rome brought a form of hydro works and road systems throughout it's Empire. It did everything it could to make life better for it's people and provided very good security. As America heads to Imperialism I don't see any of the good features that were present in the Roman Empire. All I see is plunder and death. Do you think the world during Roman times thought of Rome as a good or evil. I think there is no doubt how the world perceives America today.

[bryant69]

1. All you see is plunder and death?

Presumably you are talking about America Circa 2005, not America throughout it's history?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[400Years]

7. Yeah and I guess the native population here didn't count

[bryant69]

9. OK that was nice

I'm not saying that the American Indians don't count, nor am I saying that Slavery doesn't count. Because both should.

But if you are going to throw those in, than you should add in a few other things. Like World War 2. Or the Civil Rights Movement. Or Jazz.

It is just as blind to say America is nothing but Plunder and Bloodshed as it would be to say America is perfect and noble.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[400Years]

25. and I am saying if you look at the history of U.S. foreign policy

you will see a pile of dead bodies as far as you can see.

We're not talking about music so Jazz shouldn't even come up as a subject.

[enigma000]

26. Yeah, I guess so.

But what other great power would you have preferred to be the world's only superpower at this point in history? If Washington D.C. (or New York) is the new Rome, what would have been a better choice? Tokyo? Moscow? Berlin?

[400Years]

27. bogus question

a single polar world is not a historical necessity.

[enigma000]

30. I was just assuming a uni-polar world

Not a certainty of course, but I’ve been partial, as of late, to the idea that there was a high likelihood of this situation coming about. And if so, the other candidates for the role were less than, um, appealing.

Still, having said that best beware of "Historical Inevitability”

[400Years]

33. I can respect that

but given that assumption I wouldn't expect any of them to be any better but that should not be a reason to gloss over anything.

[bryant69]

31. That's because Jazz doesn't prove your thesis

That Americans are filthy bastards.

But, ok, what about World War II?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[400Years]

32. I'll state my own thesis thank you

You might find that other people don't mind you putting words in their mouth but I do.

Now that we've got that out of the way what do you want to know about WWII?

Hitler was applauded by certain scumbags over here including Prescott Bush until it all got out of control. You see there is a long line of bad things that have been done in the name of the U.S. that most Americans don't know about. Most aspects of U.S. foreign policy never make it into the consciousness of the public because they are never exposed to this information and that leads to this idea of American exceptionalism. The assumption that America is a beacon of light in a see of evil rather than the reality that our government is just as corrupt as any other.

Do you care to have a rational discussion or would you rather just stick to silly assertions like the one you made above?

[bryant69]

34. Was Prescott Bush speaking for the United States when he

applauded Hitler? Or, for that matter, what about Henry Ford?

Or was FDR speaking for America when he attacked Hitler and facism?

I'm not going to deny that there are a lot of bad things the United States has done. But I also disagree with the assertion that it is all bad.

Bryant

[400Years]

36. Show me exactly where I said

"it is all bad"

Where did you read that?

Fact is I never said it.

[bryant69]

38. I apologize

I guess I misread your defense of this statement "As America heads to Imperialism I don't see any of the good features that were present in the Roman Empire. All I see is plunder and death." That's the one I was responding to in my initial post (and the one you referred to with your comments on the American Indian). So I naturally assumed it lined up with your beliefs.

But you never actually came out and said that, so I guess I shouldn't have assumed that.

I will note, however, that you are clearly interested in painting a negative picture of American History.

Bryant

[400Years]

39. thanks but I will note that

In my opinion American History is pretty negative.

You are right about that.

[nuxvomica]

2. Ask a Carthaginian

If you can find one.

[cali]

It's not an either/or proposition

Either for Rome or America. Call it the theory of apparent paradox, wherein two seemingly irreconcilable truths co-exist at the same time; i.e, the Roman empire was simultaneously a good thing for the world, and a bad thing.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. The Romans ran into a lot of resistance to their "nation building".

There were constant revolutions to their notions of "civilization". Not to mention civil wars and insurrections at home.

Eventually, the people they were "helping" became weary of supporting the bosses and ended the "Pax Romana".

Something like what's going on now all over the world that has grown weary of the "Pax Americana".

[Deep13]

4. Empire = subjugation

Whatever engineering marvels they brought to the world it does not change the fact that it subjugated much of Europe and the entire Mediterranean world and forced it into its regimented and slave-driven society.

[The Whiskey Priest]

5. History is an Understanding of a Record of the Elite

Only the elite leave a record of their passing, for those who suffered at the hands of the elite there is little notice. Oppression is onerous to the human spirit...with empathy you can see that live for those oppressed by an elite of any epoch is "nasty, brutish and short..."

[LostinVA]

6. Bad -- it caused the Celts to become patriarchal asses

[obreaslan]

18. The Celts were killed by the Church...

Or at least their true culture. The Church killed off the last of the Celtic culture as it spread into northern Europe.

St. Patrick drove the snakes out of Ireland. Who do you think the snakes were?

I think the patriarchal asses are the ancestors of the converts. :)

[LostinVA]

24. No, no -- women had many, many rights in the British Celtic

Culture. They were VERY close to having equal rights as men. THIS close, including bing warriors, druids, etc. However, the successful (and final)Roman conquest of Britain killed this off, and introduced the Roman patriarchal society as the law of the land.

I actually don't think the Church killed off the Celts, just the Druids, although there is much of this Paganism in the Irish Church, even today.

[Bridget Burke]

40. The Romans conquered the Continental Celts....

(I know, because I read Julius Caesar's account.) After some bloody battles, the British Celts were mostly conquered or driven into Wales. Many became good Romans & then Roman Christians.

The Christian conversion of Ireland occurred without violence. The Druids were a priestly caste & there's no record of their murder, either. However, they insisted on remaining nonliterate, so many of their teachings did not survive. "Celtic" cultures had contact with literate Greeks & Romans for centuries; often peaceful contact, as much trade occurred. But the Druids wanted to pass on their teachings orally only. Julius said they wanted to ensure that powers of memory would not weaken. Or perhaps they liked having a monopoly on their field of knowledge.

When Christianity came to Ireland, Irish law & medical knowledge were recorded in writing. But much of old Irish religion is lost to us--because the damned stubborn Druids kept their monopoly. Irish Ogham (& Runes, for the northern folks) were "the people's" methods of writing, influenced by Greek & Latin. But they were only used for short inscriptions.

Actually, using "Celt" as the equivalent of "Irish" is not quite accurate. Bob Quinn's "Atlantean Irish: Ireland's Oriental and Maritime Heritage" is a fascinating study. (No, it has nothing to do with Atlantis.) You can order it from the publisher, if you're interested.

www.lilliputpress.ie/listbook.html?oid=2733139

Or try the friendly folks at Kenny's bookstore in Galway City.

www.kennys.ie/Search_Results.aspx?profile=Books&view=single&Barcode=1843510243

"Celtic" is vastly overused, in my opinion.

[orestes]

8. I'm not sure on way or the other

but I suspect there's a good reason for referring to the 400 or so year period after the collapse of the Roman Empire in Western Europe as the Dark Ages.

[qazplm]

10. you know

it IS possible to be intensely angry at this administration, as everyone here is, myself included, and still think that there is a little more to America than "plunder and death". America is neither the source of all evil nor are we hell on earth.

[Toots]

12. I am open to your suggestions on what good Bush* has accomplished

in the world or America. Except for our War Prowess what has America done that will be remembered as bneficial to mankind. We kill better than any other country but what else do we do? I will give you the Panama Canal.

[qazplm]

17. you didnt say Bush

you said America...Bush does not equal America last time I checked.

Now if you want to amend your headline feel free, but if you want to talk about what America has done that will be remembered as beneficial to mankind??

Landing on the moon ring a bell?
How many major diseases have we had a hand in curing or helping to cure?
American democracy spawned democracies in France and much of the western hemisphere.
How many great inventions have we been responsible for?
How about the Marshall Plan and the rebuilding of Japan?
How about the art and culture we've added to the world (yes we have added some, start with jazz)

Again, just because we are stuck with this horrible president does not mean we've never ever accomplished anything beneficial for mankind, that kind of over the top hyperbole is just insane.

[Toots]

23. If you reread my original post you will note I said

It appears America is heading to Imperialism. Not that we were an Empire or had been an Empire but appear to be heading to Imperialism. Bush* is the one leading us in that direction. I was asking for what good might be accomplished if this were to occur. Granted America has had citizens that have accomplished a great deal in medicine and science and the arts but the Government is different from individuals. Funny you should mention the Marshall Plan. Why again did we need it? And America did not bring Democracy to France and England and in fact it was the Magna Carta that we based our own government. Besides the Panama Canal what has our Government brought to the world.

[qazplm]

41. why did we need the marshall plan???

because the nazis absolutely destroyed europe???

Youve got to be kidding me if you somehow think we were wrong for being involved in taking arms against the NAZIs.

And the government is involved in funding medicine and science, where do you think technology like better computers, GPS, medical imaging equipment, air traffic control radar and about 1000 other things get their start?

[bloom]

28. Well this is how someone who SUPPORTS the idea of the USA

as the new Romans describes things...

"The Lessons of the Roman Empire for America Today"

"...By an absolute superpower I mean a nation that is dominant militarily, politically, economically, and culturally. The United States is absolutely dominant militarily, politically, economically, and we dominate the world culturally. We may never produce a Beethoven or a Bach, a Goethe or a Shakespeare. That is not how our culture dominates. It is our music, our McDonald’s, our popular culture that spreads all over the globe. Look at a terrorist. He will be holding someone hostage while wearing sneakers, Mickey Mouse tee-shirt on, listening to terrible music and dreaming of a McDonald’s when this is all over. That is how our culture rules the world..."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=221838&mesg_id=221838


---

McDonalds and Walmarts don't say much for us.

There may be something good that comes out of this for some people. There is also much that is lost. Look at how much the Iraq historical museums were destroyed. It's abominable. The world is becoming one big American franchise.

[tanyev]

43. "That is how our culture rules the world..."

Or, that is how a super virus infects the entire planet.

To all citizens of the world: I apologize for American fast food chains. Seriously, if you value your health, don't eat that stuff.

[TlalocW]

11. Not according to the Judean People's Front...

Or maybe that's the People's Front of Judea... Not sure.

TlalocW

[Vidar]

13. Splitter! lol

[Le Taz Hot]

19. Well, hell!!!

Coffee all over the damned keyboard!

:applause:

[AngryAmish]

14. Good

Peaceful, useful technology advances in times of peace. Romans had engineering unparrelled in the western world. Cement, for example.

Romans had a civilization I would not like to be a part of, but so did everyone else on earth at the time.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

20. This is an important point-you have to consider what other forms of

civilization other than empire, monarchy etc. were available or "known" at that time in world history.

Supposedly we spent the last 200 years or so working through to this wonderful form of elected representation in America, supposedly the highest form of government yet, and a model and light to the rest of the world...

... only to throw it all away on one tin horn dictator, to allow him to grab powers for himself not known since kings before the Magna Carta.

[Karenina]

35. This either/or paradigm

Americans seem so fond of is a bit disturbing. However, I must say the Romans left a LOT of VERY COOL bits of cement scattered all over this town.

[Strong Atheist]

15. As with most subjects, there are pro's and cons .... nt.

[Vidar]

16. Despite its bloodthirsty evils, Rome became synonymous w civilization.

We have become synonymous with predatory corporate capitalism

[Touchdown]

21. Ask a fundy. It was GREAT! ...before the homos destroyed it.

A slave owning, aristocratic society, who worshipped the markets as much as we do now(our form of top down practice of commerce is directly derived from Rome's form of capitalism). They had no social safety net. Corruption in government, military, and business was rampant. Peresecution of Christians, Jews, and any other belief system contrary to the Olympian polytheism that they practiced was widespread. This is the society that invented crucifixion. A Senate that was for the elite land owners and for them only. Caesars who at times became tyrants, such as Julius and Nero, but only to the rich land owners. The poor and slaves were always victimized. The idea of divine right of kings (Feudalism) was perfected in Rome. It's no accident that Hitler called his Third Reich as the third age of the Roman Empire. I never understood the argument that homosexuals destroyed the Roman Empire. This was an empire that deserved to be destroyed.

With a society as that, and if the mode of it's destruction was true, then Gay people should be hailed as heroes above anybody else in the world. For gays destroyed the the world's most powerful and close to the most brutal empire in earth history, especially since they were known to kill Christians at whim, the Christians should be kissing our feet, instead of wanting to stone us to death, and waiting for the day when the SCOTUS says it's ok to do just that.

[endarkenment]

22. Imperial Rome: bad. Empire - good/bad.

Imperial rome is the period after Julius Caeser etc. end the republic. The Roman Empire both precedes and follows the abolition of the republic. To the extent that the empire extended civilization it did a considerable amount of good - unless of course you want to argue that western civilization is hopelessly bad and its 'progress' in knowledge and technology as a benefit is obliterated by its 'progress' as tyranny, oppression etc.

Imperial rome abolished the limited democracy of the roman republic, and pretty much abolished democracy itself as an institution in the west for the next 1700 or so years, although there were exceptions. Not good, eh?

[Marr]

29. Do you know where the pirate "walk the plank" thing came from?

It started with Mediterranean pirates in the era of the Roman Empire. Once they'd seized a ship, they'd explain that they would not dream of harming a Roman citizen, and would allow them to leave the ship. Then they'd extend the boarding plank (at sea, of course), and suggest they exit. I only mention it because I think it's funny, and because it's illustrative of the sort of resentment many people must've held for the Romans.

I don't know that you can say the Roman Empire was a good or bad thing for the world. They brought alot of advancements- technological, philosophical, political, etc. They also oppressed alot of people.

[DelawareValleyDem]

37. I think they addressed this in the movie Life of Brian.

"Apart from sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

[slackmaster]

42. Both

It was necessary.

[AngryAmish]

44. But clearly the Punic wars were a good thing