Curious of those who think "They're not as bad as you make them out to be"

[HughBeaumont]

It's sad that there are still people out there that -

+ despite the mountains upon mountains of evidence detailing spurious events, criminal actions, coincidences, and flat-out dubious associations throughout history that the Bush Administration has been involved in,

+ despite their blatant disregard for our Constitution,

+ their glad-handing and enabling of unbridled Coroporatism in this country and the ignorance of the interests of ALL working people of this country,

+ their obvious inability to kick their oil, military and arms addictions at the expense of generations of taxpayers, our economy and our brave soldier's lives,

Despite ALL of this, they STILL believe that the Bush Administration is "not as bad as we make him out to be". :wtf: I'm curious, is it strictly because they think "Oooooh, don't say that. You don't want to be branded as a 'basher'. It makes us look baaad." or do they really not want to believe that this government IS that power and money hungry, IS that bloodthirsty and DOES have zero regard for the livelihoods, needs and rights of the people that put them there?

Why exactly is using terms like "BFEE" and likening them to fascists (and let's face it folks, the comparison is not only right on the money, but some of the corporations that own them have a history of supporting fascist-like governments) a BAD thing, bordering on "tin-foil hattery"? Why are there still those on our side (and this post is directed towards those people, in case you were asking) that still have faith that the laws of the land still apply even to these monsters and that they don't "create their own realities" (as a Bush aide was quoted)?

Personally, I think that whole bunch is WORSE than we make it. How many actions have this criminal bunch of thugs gotten away with that even the internet hasn't caught? Seen the national debt lately? Think that's going to get paid off anytime soon? What about the war? Surely they can't think this is going to end anytime soon, or that other ones aren't in the works? Is the apathy among our own really that bad?

[bryant69]

1. That sort of depends on how bad you make them out to be

First of all, you don't have to convince me that the Bush administration is made up of a bunch of bastards. I'm more or less on the same page with you on that.

The problem comes when you make specific accusations, and use as your proof that they are bastards and fascists. You might suggest, for example, that they killed 3,000 people on September 11th (MIHOP), and one of your chief arguments is "Look at what right bastards they are. And you don't think they are capable of killing 3,000 Americans?"

Or to put it as a logical statement. The Bush administration are bastards and facists. Therefore, they killed 3,000 people on September 11th. That doesn't work for me. It's kind of one sized fits all accusation.

To be fair some supporters of MIHOP have other evidence (although nothing that convinces me).

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[HughBeaumont]

2. It's understandable that people don't want to believe conspiracies

Nevertheless, some of them are actually true.

What I'm saying is that there are those on our side who, and let's toss aside those who decry conspiracies, react with disdain when you simply draw comparisons of their actions to past dictatorships, however valid they might be. It's simply a "history repeats itself" statement, but people don't seem to want to hear it, or are afraid to hear it.

[bryant69]

3. Well and it's comforting to believe those that disagree with you

do so out of cowardness, rather than supposing that they have looked at your arguments and found them wanting.

Merely saying history repeats itself isn't a sufficient argument in favor of any specfic event. You can charitably say that it is evidence and should be added to the mix; but it is not sufficient proof in and of itself.

[Village Idiot]

5. Here's some tidbits:

Fascist Assholes:

Patriot Act = Feb 28, 1933 Act:

ARTICLE 1. In virtue of paragraph 2, article 48,* of the German Constitution, the following is decreed as a defensive measure against communist acts of violence , endangering the state:

Sections 114, 115, 117, 118, 123, 124, and 153 of the Constitution of the German Reich are suspended until further notice. Thus, restrictions on personal liberty <114>, on the right of free expression of opinion, including freedom of the press <118>, on the right of assembly and the right of association <124>, and violations of the privacy of postal, telegraphic, and telephonic communications <117>, and warrants for house-searches <115>, orders for confiscation as well as restrictions on property <153>, are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed.

Unitary Executive = Enabling Act of 1933:

The Reichstag has passed the following law, which is, with the approval of the Reichsrat , herewith promulgated, after it has been established that it satisfies the requirements for legislation altering the Constitution.

ARTICLE 1. In addition to the procedure for the passage of legislation outlined in the Constitution, the Reich Cabinet is also authorized to enact Laws. . . .

ARTICLE 2. The national laws enacted by the Reich Cabinet may deviate from the Constitution provided they do not affect the position of the Reichstag and the Reichsrat. The powers of the President remain unaffected.

ARTICLE 3. The national laws enacted by the Reich Cabinet shall be prepared by the Chancellor and published in the official gazette. They come into effect, unless otherwise specified, upon the day following their publication . . .

ARTICLE 4. Treaties of the Reich with foreign states which concern matters of domestic legislation do not require the consent of the bodies participating in legislation. The Reich Cabinet is empowered to issue the necessary provisions for the implementing of these treaties.

ARTICLE 5. This law comes into effect on the day of its publication. It ceases to be valid on 1 April 1937.


If you had read "Mein Kampf" in 1925 and watched what happened in Nazi Germany from 1928-1945, what would you have thought? Would you come to the conclusion that Hitler's plans unfolded pretty much as he said they would? Have you read the PNAC's "Rebuilding America's Defenses?" I'm pretty sure you have been paying attention over the past five years since you are here after all, but if not, I would suggest you take another look back at 1933, just to remind you of what comes next:

Law Against the Establishment of Parties, July 14, 1933:

The German Cabinet has resolved the following law, which is herewith promulgated:

ARTICLE 1. The National Socialist German Workers Party constitutes the only political party in Germany.

ARTICLE 2. Whoever undertakes to maintain the organizational structure of another political party or to form a new political party will be punished with penal servitude up to three years or with imprisonment or with imprisonment of from six months to three years, if the deed is not subject to a greater penalty according to other regulations.

There are a HOT of similarities between the current US administration and the way it operates to the fascist dictatorship of Adolph Hitler. EVERY SINGLE ONE of the 14 points of proto-fascism applies to the current situation in the USA, just as they did to Nazi Germany.

PNAC spells out EXACTLY what they planned to do, once in office, just as Adolph Hitler did in "Mein Kampf." They plan to establish a state of PERMANENT WAR:

"Until the process of transformation is treated as an enduring military mission – worthy of a constant allocation of dollars and forces – it will remain stillborn" (p. 60).

From Richard Perle (one of PNAC's "founding fathers"):

"This is total war. We are fighting a variety of enemies. There are lots of them out there. All this talk about first we are going to do Afghanistan, then we will do Iraq . . . this is entirely the wrong way to go about it. If we just let our vision of the world go forth, and we embrace it entirely and we don't try to piece together clever diplomacy, but just wage a total war . . . our children will sing great songs about us years from now."

They talk about the 9-11 attack as the catalyst, provocation or obstruction that will enable them to launch the perverted wet-dream plans of the White House neocon hawks currently in power:

"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor." (p.63)

Check out Chris Floyd, from informationclearinghouse.info:

"Not since "Mein Kampf" has a geopolitical punch been so blatantly telegraphed, years ahead of the blow. Adolf Hitler clearly spelled out his plans to destroy the Jews and launch wars of conquest to secure German domination of world affairs in his 1925 book, long before he ever assumed power. Despite the zigzags of rhetoric he later employed, the various PR spins and temporary justifications offered for this or that particular policy, any attentive reader of his vile regurgitation could have divined his intentions as he drove his country -- and the world -- to murderous upheaval.

Similarly -- in method, if not entirely in substance -- the Bush Regime's foreign policy is also being carried out according to a strict blueprint written years ago, then renewed a few months before the Regime was installed in power by the judicial coup of December 2000."
- http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2326.htm

Read the PNAC blueprint regarding Ballistic Missile Defense, Weapons in Space, INCREASED nuclear proliferation, Middle East Regime Change, total military TRANSFORMATION, massive increases in miltary spending, "Pax Americana, absolute control of cyberspace, etc. Compare it with current events and you may come to many of the same conclusions that many of us "conspiracy theorist moonbats" came to LONG AGO.

To ridicule people as "conspiracy theorists" because many of us recognize, from the past, events presently unfolding and justifiably fear for our collective future is just plain ignorance. If you knew what would happen in the future, with some reasonable certainty (because it's what THEY SAY THEY WILL DO and have been doing), you would be remiss in your civic duty if you did not share the information. Dismiss it at your own peril - History has six million mute witnesses as to the events from 1928-1945 - how many will it have from 2000-2015?

Futher Reading:

"Bush Planned Iraq 'Regime Change' Before Becoming President,"
Glasgow Sunday Herald, Sept. 15, 2002

"Foreign Policy Blueprint,"
TomPaine.com, March 2002

"US and the Triumph of Unilateralism,"
Asia Times, Sept. 10, 2002

"George Bush and the World,"
New York Review of Books, Sept. 26, 2002 issue

"The Next World Order,"
The New Yorker, March 25, 2002

"Saddam in the Crosshairs,"
Village Voice, Nov. 21-27, 2001

"Rebuilding America's Defenses,"
Project for a New Century, September 2000

"Statement of Principles,"
Project for a New American Century, June 3, 1997

"Fortunes of war await Bush's circle after attacks on Iraq,"
The Independent (UK), Sept. 15, 2002

"Don't Mention the O-Word,"
The Economist, Sept. 12, 2002

"Backing on Iraq? Let's Make a Deal,"
Los Angeles Times, Sept. 13, 2002

"In Iraqi War Scenario, Oil is a Key Issue,"
Washington Post, Sept. 15, 2002

"Cronies in Arms,"
New York Times, Sept. 17, 2002

Questions That Won't Be Asked About Iraq,"
U.S. Rep. Ron Paul, Republican, Texas, Sept. 10, 2002

Bombs Will Deepen Iraq's Nightmare: An Iraqi Dissident Speaks,"
The Guardian, Sept. 17, 2002

Looking War in the Face,"
Boston Globe, Sept. 10, 2002

"Iraqgate,"
Columbia Journalism Review, May/June 1993

[HughBeaumont]

6. Thanks for the information.

Shame that the outrage expressed in past societies doesn't exist en masse now. Maybe back then, there were less resources and far more to lose. Not to say millions aren't suffering as a result of *'s policies, but what will it take to extract him?

Uncivility, maybe, IS the answer?

[Village Idiot]

7. I would dearly LOVE to see some incivility...

Just to have ONE Dem Senator or Congressman stand up and say: "Mr. President, that's a lie."

I think I'd faint on the spot.


As to the outrage, it exists a-plenty, but is remarkably underreported considering the OBVIOUS left-wing slant of the MSM...

[calico1]

4. You have to keep in mind that there are a lot

of people in this country--and I do mean a LOT--that don't read news or otherwise get informed as we do. A lot of them think that Fox is "just another news station" so if they get what information they do get from Fox then there is a lot of your problem. I know so many people that are just not involved in the process. All they think about is what is having an immediate affect on them. Its scary to know just how bad this problem is. But it is pretty bad. I don't think that there are a lot of people out there who are totally informed and don't thin the Repubs are bad. I think that there are a lot who just don't care enough to get informed because they personally have not been affected yet. And they are not informed so they don't realize just how bad the problem is. I work with a woman who says she is a strong feminist and is strongly pro choice. Yet she admits to voting for Bush TWICE. She found Gore boring and Kerry geeky. Those were her reasons for voting for Bush, plus he seemed like a real nice guy. And when another more informed co worker and I informed her that if for no other reason than the Supreme Court she should vote for Kerry because of Roe, she looked at us like we both had 3 heads and said "No way! Roe is a law. There is no way that will get overturned." So there you have it. And there are thousands and thousands of similar stories like that that people could tell you. The scariest thing today is how totally uninformed and detached the average American is from the political process.

[Zinfandel]

8. Of course they are worse, these are greedy, lying sick, power hungry fucks

who will lie, and hide documents, change documents, kill if necessary... and they pay the media talking heads very, very well, keeping them up in the upper middle class... and even the rich class, in order to twist, bend, ignore and lie for these republican fascist...and the same talking heads, will do or say anything in order to keep their privileged lifestyle...This has been well thought out my friends, via years and years of republican think tanks...that's why people "don't think the republicans are really so bad", the media has and will continue to shout down opposition and lie and hide facts for these greedy sick thieves, who are just like themselves unscrupulous with complete sickness and greed!!!

The Internet though, has become this huge obstacle, that the neo-cons never anticipated, nor thought would be much of a problem...And now BushCo is taking steps to frighten people, publicizing it, that people of opposition the sites they go to are being watched and that BushCo is also watching what they send, or say in their private emails...

Fear tactics, always using fear...

The fascist republicans would love to have Internet control with viable constraints before the 2008 elections, and to continue tightening the restrictions each and every day, to ultimately have, virtually no dissenting voices head on radio, television, news print and of course, the Internet!

Then, won't the republicans always look pretty?

[kiki]

9. What does my head in

is the "Oh, the American government's always been bad, but they'd never be THAT extreme" argument.

The same people tend to think that a bunch of scattered terrorist groups and tinpot dictators are suddenly capable of implementing a global apocalypse, because "everything changed after 9/11".