You're a German. It's 1936. What do you do?

[kpete]

You're a German. It's 1936. What do you do?
by General Disarray
Wed Jan 25, 2006 at 02:07:22 PM PDT

In the mid-1930s, Hitler and the Nazis were rising to power in Germany. Before long they would seize control of all branches of government and declare themselves above the law.



Political opponents would be murdered, bigotry was trotted out as a political tool and the government began spying on its citizens.

Looking back, historians have often pondered how Hitler was able to do it. You could divide the German populace at the time into two groups: those that waved the flag and patriotically supported their government (loudly or quietly) and everyone else.

Among this "everyone else" group, there were many who certainly gathered in beer halls and talked about what was happening to their country -- sort of the "DailyKos" of their day.

So the question is, knowing what we know today, what would we do if we lived in 1936 Germany as Hitler was consolidating his power? What did these Germans of 1944 wish they had done a decade earlier?

What would you do?

General Disarray's diary :: ::
PS: Thanks to Melvin for the image...

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/1/25/16722/1940

[jsamuel]

1. have been thinking about this for a while

[helderheid]

2. Me too. Have to admit, I am really scared.

:scared:

[cantstandbush]

91. Obviously, we're doing what they did. The outcome could be worse.

It won't only be groups of people within our nation but groups of people around the world who will be targeted and killed. Gas chambers, bombs....you're still dead.

[endarkenment]

3. The sane thing to do 20/20 hindsight: leave. nt.

[wake.up.america]

4. Here we go again. Some people will say Stay and fight...

I say you have an obligation to your family above all.

I feel no allegiance to any country, only to values which I hold dear.


Some cannot leave because of familial reasons, etc.

Some would like to leave , but only if they can make at least the same money they are making now.

And so on.

Let's face it. Was America ever Justice and Liberty for all? On paper America looked great at one time.

How many years before the slaves were freed?

How many years before women allowed to vote?

Not to say other countries do not have their problems.

You have a president who hides behind the flag. Tells ya something when so many people buy into phony baloney patriotism, distracting people from the fact he is taking away their rights.

[AbbyR]

7. If I thought I could get a job in Canada...

I'd be out of here so fast...

[MADem]

11. Yeah, but they are trending to the right, too

It ain't a liberal oasis anymore....

France, maybe???

[pitohui]

22. france is overwhelmed w. immigrants

the reality is that it's 2006 and most americans cannot leave, we are not usually given the right to work in foreign countries, and we sure as crap don't have enough $$$ saved up to live the rest of our lives in retirement in france or any other euro country!

it would be tough sledding for most of us to fund retirement to belize or costa rica these days!

[raccoon]

99. Glad you pointed this out. It's easy to SAY,

"Go to Canada,France," whatever. But actually being able to DO it is another thing, for the reasons you mentioned.

[rainy]

29. I believe Canada's right is like our center left if I'm not mistaken.

[TechBear_Seattle]

13. Fight how?

I am gay. I am an atheist. I am a liberal. I am the Jew of the National Corporate Party, one of the people The Party have openly blamed for all of America's ills and for whom The Party is just a Supreme Court appointment away from publishing a Final Solution. Even the "opposition" party, nominally my ally, has repeatedly thrown me away in its pursuit of "middle of the road" voters.

HOW THE BLOODY HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO FIGHT?

[stepnw1f]

84. You are Going to Have to Figure that One Out

before it's too late.

[TechBear_Seattle]

85. Thank you. Glad to know I still have allies

Just yanking your chain :pals:

My point, though, is given the "hypothetical" -- in quotes because I fear the situation really isn't all that hypothetical -- I am better off leaving the country and seeking refuge elsewhere. I like the Netherlands, but with global warming and rising sea levels.... maybe I should start investing in property on Antarctica?

[stepnw1f]

94. Stay man... If It Gets too Heavy

we'll start communes.

Good book to read by Thom Hartmann: "Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight".

Glad you are smiling... keep hope alive, and yes I am definitely your friend and we should stick together. We need each other. Don't let the other side split us apart no matter what. We will win in the end.

:thumbsup:

[endarkenment]

77. The question was a hypothetical re Germany 1938.

With 20/20 hindsight the only rational course of action was to get the hell out.

Here at the moment I will stay and fight. In retrospect this may turn out to be a stupid selfish decision made out of pride and that what I should have done was taken my family and fled.

[Gildor Inglorion]

12. Leaving? Easier said than done....

I've often wondered why the Jews didn't leave Germany in the 30's before things got TOO bad. Now I know. Try being a gay man over *ahem* a certain age who isn't wealthy and finding a country willing to take you in.

[pitohui]

24. yeah other countries only want americans if they're rich EOM

.

[wake.up.america]

25. You won't know until you try!! Try Spain! Try something!

I find it absolute crap that a gay person should have to live in fear as many are experiencing today. I do not have the right to judge anyone, as many are prone to do in Bush's Amerika, unter the guise of Christianity.

[pitohui]

28. spain probably too pricey

there's somewhat of a catch-22 w. relocating to another country as an older person

if you're middle-aged, you prob. don't have enough work years or savings to fund a retirement even in a really cheap country, even in ecuador!

if you're a senior, then did you know that you cannot take your medicare benefits to another country? so even if you have decent social or retirement income for living in a foreign country, you may not have quite enough for health care

the usa is really something of a trap, you can get in, but you can't get out, ha ha

[alarcojon]

47. Exactly

Maybe many of my fellow posters could and would leave, but does anyone really think any significant portion of the 300 million Americans could just go somewhere else? And if you do leave, how do you know that your new home won't become the Chimperor's imperial backlot, if not a war zone?

I was born here. My family and friends live here. I was raised to love the ideals this country was founded on, and that the best of us aspire to. So I would stay and resist. Because if Bushco really goes fascist, the resistance would be the last hope for humankind. We have way more military and economc might than Hitler could have dreamt of.

[Protagoras]

31. many did leave

that's one of the pieces so often forgotten. Many fled. Many saw it. Many fought against it. But even more were in denial or did nothing.

Remember that in 38/39 Chaplin was essentially blackballed in the US for making The Great Dictator...we even knew what was going on over here...and we did nothing. In fact we initially cracked down on people yelling about Hitler because some Americans found Fascism quit appealing them.

Jack London wrote the Iron Heel. in 1908
Lewis Sinclair wrote "It can't happen Here" in 1935.

These people saw what was happing in the World...and were able to see how it threatened us here. Not because of invasion...but because of the subtle errosion of our own values...that quiet yielding and denial that allows the brownshirts to take over.

there are numerous examples. Unfortunately we don't teach them in school. We don't make blockbuster movies about them. Heck, we don't even mention them on MTV in hopes that some kid will become interested.

And those are the things we must do to respond to this meme.

[mnhtnbb]

42. Getting out saved individual lives

Those that chose to stay had to live with the consequences of their decision.

We bought property in Panama last spring and have contracted to build a house. It probably won't be finished until about this time 2007. It might become just a vacation/rental/investment place, or a snowbird retirement house (I'm 55 and my husband is 63) OR, it may be our safe haven from the fascists in the US when things turn ugly here and we choose full time retirement in Panama. We are preparing for the worst and hoping for the best.

I would urge others to think about their escape options. Our son recently took a new job with an international software firm, based in Cary NC but has offices in countries all over the world. The easiest way to get a job in another country is to be working for an international firm and look for opportunities to transfer. That's another way to plan to get out if you're not at retirement age.

[savemefromdumbya]

5. My friend's mother's teacher was hanged infront of the class

My friend's mother told me that they hid her in a book trunk in a cupboard in her classroom until they had gone - they hung the teacher infront of the class. This was the type of atrocity that prevented people speaking out. You didn't have to be Jewish to be hit by Hitler's mob either. People would tell on you.

[Sequoia]

49. For 5 Marks.

That's terrible. The teacher?!!

[MsAnthropy]

6. Think it could be worse--I could be a sane person during Bush 43

[TechBear_Seattle]

8. Move to America

Sadly, that isn't exactly an option at the moment.

[Radical Activist]

9. Early Nazis fought communists in the streets.

I would be fighting with the communists. Communism may not work as a form of government when they get into power, but they're great to have around when you're fighting oppressive governments.

[bpilgrim]

15. No PATRIOT act can give you power to destroy ideas which are eternal!

However, one man arose amid the overwhelming might. Otto Wells (socialist), leader of the Social Democrats stood up and spoke quietly to Hitler.

"We German Social Democrats pledge ourselves solemnly in this historic hour to the principles of humanity and justice, of freedom and socialism. No enabling act can give you power to destroy ideas which are eternal and indestructible."

This enraged Hitler and he jumped up to respond.

"You are no longer needed! - The star of Germany will rise and yours will sink! Your death knell has sounded!"

The vote was taken - 441 for, only 84, the Social Democrats, against. The Nazis leapt to their feet clapping, stamping and shouting, then broke into the Nazi anthem, the Hörst Wessel song.



peace

[UncleSepp]

67. Neither, apparently, can denazification trials. n/t

[PassingFair]

56. Communists are what I found, when I went looking for...

those who opposed Hitler.

You're right, I guess I'd have left and worked with the communists. They were the only united opposing force in the region.

[Skidmore]

10. Join the Underground

and resist.

[leftchick]

14. I have been thinking about this all week

once the coup is complete with the installation of alito and the chimp has no chance of ever paying for his crimes, things will escalate dramatically. I am thinking future wars and conscription. It will be too late for the rebellion. The time was yesterday. I am leaving, somehow, someway.

[kpete]

16. I am off to TIKAL

Should I come back?

[Swamp Rat]

27. The step pyramid in Guatemala?

[kpete]

33. Thats the place

Serenity now...

[Swamp Rat]

37. I know what you mean...

Eu vou ao Brasil. ;)

[mnhtnbb]

43. My husband visited Tikal last year when we were

looking at Belize as an option for our escape hatch! We ended up with property in Panama. See my post #42

[helderheid]

17. Logistically do you think they'd have the man power to "control" those

opposed?

[atomic-fly]

20. Kick!

[leftchick]

21. what with KBR building the new detention centers in the US

I have been wondering the same.

[helderheid]

38. I mean the military is so stretched thin and I don't know if they would

even do it, even if ordered. I just don't know!

[leftchick]

40. I wonder that as well

then there is the new federal force that "the homeland" wants. Using federal brownshirts would take care of that issue.

The USSSUD.....

http://benfrank.net/blog/2006/01/18/ss_uniformed_division/

:scared:

[helderheid]

44. I am so overwhelmed with sadness and fear.

[leftchick]

45. I was thinking all day today

I have the exact same sense of dread and fear as I did the day of shock and awful in Iraq.

:cry:

[helderheid]

46. I'm hugging my kids extra tight.

If the patriot act is passed with the changes you pointed out, I think it's safe to say we can kiss DU goodbye.

:hug:

[endarkenment]

105. So what is the size of the merc army?

You don't know? Neither do I. What I do know is that they have been building and training it on a massive scale for almost three years.

[free4now]

76. They'll use paid mercenaries for some of it.

:mad: :scared:

[lectrobyte]

81. Sure. Create a new "Home Guard" force and blame all the problems

on some scapegoat group: Democrats, liberals, gays, whatever. I think anyone who thinks we are that different and it could never happen here is very naive.

[sinkingfeeling]

18. I'm moving to Ireland.

[endarkenment]

106. I've got family there and its my place of last resort.

We go visit, we never come back.

[madfloridian]

19. Many here already think of me as "good German"....

yet I have been a fighter for a lot of causes here at DU. I think that is the ultimate insult you can make to someone.

I think it will hurt the ones on the left who are doing this.

[tnlefty]

65. Hey mad! I don't think that I would refer to you as a "good German", I

refer to bush**lovin' repubs by that moniker. I have 3 sons and my husband and I have had some heated arguments about this topic. If things get bad I have a friend who can immigrate to NZ. She will take my oldest first, followed by the other 2 if i don't leave. I'm about to the point that I would apply to immigrate as well just so I could be with any or all of my sons.

I love my country, but I'm not willing to give up my sons to a fascist regime who only views them as cannon fodder, or as mere worker bees for the war machine.

Peace.

[zanne]

86. Don't internalize it.

We all have opinions. Don't take it so personally. (I'm sure you've thrown a few zingers in your time).

[Gormy Cuss]

23. Hard to imagine this with setting some parameters.

Assuming I was not Jewish or Romany or gay or rich, I would probably have too much faith in my fellow countrymen and assume that he would never gain complete control. Then of course I'd be stuck there trying to keep a low profile until the Allies freed me. I would probably be an Underground sympathizer so there's a good chance the Nazis would off me before the end of the war.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. As an Anarchist I'd probably be trying to get out of Oranienburg

The first concentration camp for "political opponents" of Hitler.

[AnneD]

30. I have read and researched this time period.....

I have also been a Bush Rove watcher for some time. I was not worried about him until 9/11. I knew that there would be rallying around and a crackdown of rights, but when the Patriot Act passed I became nervous. And when they attacked Iraq, I took down the Constitution and DOI off my walls.

With each passing day, I have seen the noose get tighter. The most starling and scary thing is that Americans act as if they are on Soma. They don't question thing. And the DEM'S, most days I am embarrassed to be associated with them. They are as spineless and corrupt as the German Legislation (and Germany WAS a Democracy when Hitler took over).

How do I think this will play out...They will start rounding up 'terrorist' cells. Then they will crack down on dissidents, terrorist sympathizers, bad people like child porn people, gays, (re:anyone that disagrees with them) all the while praising God, the flag, and Capitalism. They have already stolen the press, they will next clamp down on the borders and restrict flights (terra alerts). They will restrict passports and require a 'National Security Card'. They will do everything to slowly strip us of all our rights until one day, we wake up in Nazi Amerika.

What am I doing: try to obtain portable wealth, getting my passport renewed, talking to my overseas friends, investigating overseas 'retirement' spots that might be tolerable.

I have always had this love affair with America. I served in the USAR. I have always had a copy of the Constitution and DOI on my walls. I never ever thought I would leave my country...but I have fought tooth and nail against this regime and I fear I would eventually be caught up and put in a detention center. I will not be like the Jews-hanging around until it is too late.

[robbedvoter]

32. I would attack Clinton, with Cindy. IAC sez so, so it must be true.

[slackmaster]

34. Move to the USA

Like so many intellectuals and wealthy people did.

ETA My ancestry is about 80% German, as is true of many white Americans. The last batch of my ancestors to leave the Fatherland came to the USA in 1877.

[mitchtv]

35. Argentina

Chile, Brazil, Costa Rica, Uruguay

[Fredda Weinberg]

36. My father was there and warned us

There was nothing he or the others could have done. Anarchists & communists had scared the urbane population out of their wits and runaway inflation dissolved social bonds. The weak Weimar republic was unsustainable and Hitler was wildly popular with his socialist message and publics works projects.

So he taught his children how to survive the inevitable ... he saw this coming here.

[satya]

101. Please share your father's wisdom -- how do you survive the inevitable? nt

[LiberalAndProud]

39. Could anything have stopped it?

Sane people resigned from the Reichstag in protest. The machine ran on.
Courts were emptied of justices first, then done away with altogether.
National police force squelched dissidence with increasing brutality.
What could be done?

Some kind of national insanity was rampant. The same insanity that seems to grip us here now.

[alittlelark]

41. My husband's family left. They were Jewish and saw the writingon the wall

They lost a great many relatives.

[Catrina]

48. I think anyone who wants to leave, could apply to Venezuela as Political

Refugees and Chavez would let them in, and give them jobs ~ there's Bolivia also, and Chile ~ all swinging away from the oppressive hard right.

These countries need teachers, technicians, people who can help them as they struggle to recover from the Pinochets et al.

If this gets any worse, if they want to call Democrats traitors, I think a lot of people will leave.

S. American seems like a place to think about ~ and it's still relatively cheap to live there, and the people are wonderful!

[proud patriot]

50. Exactly what I'm doing right now

[Karenina]

51. I cannot tell you how many times

when told I was too "busy with politics" by my German extended family members and neighbors, that I have asked precisely that question.

[Dave Reynolds]

52. A figure of speech,

"cut the head off the snake".

[Ani Yun Wiya]

58. Indeed...

On 12/12/00 three thoughts dropped into my mind in rapid succession:

1. The money would get funny in a hurry. (In less than a calendar quarter this occured)
2. We would be at war in short order. (9/11 ordered that right up)
3. Free and fair elections in '04 ? give me a break. (Cue diebold)

After a 14 month look at the mess in '00 in Jebcountry, I found an undisclosed fraud,
I took my findings to all relevant parties (DU, Palast, Dem reps, etc).

Guess what : nothing happened.

At this point several new thoughts arose, which address your concern.

1. They do have an achilles heel.
2. Their greatest fear is it's exploitation.
3. This IS something in the real world.
4. This something IS emminently exploitable, without use of violence or resultant death
at point of exploitation.

[EstimatedProphet]

82. OK, so what's the Achilles heel?

[Ani Yun Wiya]

107. Hate to be indirect...

but something rather fragile holds it all together.

How well would the Romans have done without roads?

Could the Europeans have taken over the Americas without guns?

How would things look in America now if there was no TV?

Do some research and find out what it was that greatly concerned the "security pros" back in '99.

[tom_paine]

53. Escape to Free America, if possible

Now that Bushmerika is unfree, where to escape to, though?

How much longer will it be possible to stay and pretend in this pale shadow of freedom, rapidly shringing in the growing Totalitarian darkness.

In a way, it IS 1936 again.

And I have already cast my lot -- here I stay. So maybe I wouldn't have left at all. Maybe I would have said what I am saying now, "This is MY Germany, too. I love it, too, and I'll be damned if I am going to give it over to some Right-Wing assholes without a fight."

[Lone_Star_Dem]

54. My great grandparents moved to America

I've wondered more than once what they would say if they were alive today.

[The Straight Story]

55. Arm myself to start with, then Join their party

And spy on it from inside and try to move up so I could help others in any way I could.

Turn in a few friends, then help them escape.

[sproutster]

57. I can't believe it took until #52 to post what I immediately thought

Hitler was not uberguarded at that point.

There is a reason I believe in the right to arms.

[Dave Reynolds]

61. I'm a liberal aberration,

I own firearms and use them.

And what I had originally typed I scrapped before I posted, as I do not wish a visit from das Secret Service.

[porphyrian]

59. Pretend nothing's going on until it directly effects me.

What?

[WI_DEM]

60. I would hope I would be like those who left, but the truth is I don't know

what I would have done.

[savemefromdumbya]

62. 80,000 people are on the 'No fly list already'

Now people find out when they get to the airport they can't get on and have to make many phone calls to object. A elementary grade boy was on the No Fly List! Just think how many poeple can be grounded!

[LiberalAndProud]

63. I hope I would be like Sophie Scholl

http://rivertext.com/monks2.html

[wake.up.america]

72. Highly recommend reading about a girl who went to school in München...

and gave her life in hopes of starting an uprising.

Don't forget, Hitler was defeated by the Allies , not overthrown by dissidents!

Many dissidents tried, all of them failed.

[enigma000]

64. Life is Good, why move?

Say what old chap,

The German economy is growing, the people are optimistic again. Our place in the world - economically, culturally, scientifically - is once again approaching where it should be: NUMBER ONE. The Berlin Olympics were a great success! Things are great!!!!!

Look at the rest of the world: the Great Depression, political chaos in France and much of Europe. That communist monster Stalin has killed MILLIONS through state controlled famine and executions. Sure Hitler made a few wild speeches, but really people, the guy is a country bumpkin. perfectly harmless - trust me. And that FDR person the Americans have, really (I think he is a cripple too). Not to mention Winston Churchill - that war criminal is the most dangerous man alive!

No - I'll be staying in Germany. Might even join the party. You know the National Socialist Workers Party. Socialism for Workers rights as I say!

And a few Jews got mussed up - well, that will teach them for what they are doing to those poor Arabs in Palestine. Cheery O as our British cousins say!!!

Hind-sight is 20/20. What we see, from our historical perspective, is not so obvious at the time. (hey, I did get the point across)

[lectrobyte]

79. Excellent post. Sums it up very succinctly. As Kunstler puts it,

if you'd told someone in Germany in 1936 that within 10 years every city would be in ruins, Dresden would be burnt to a cinder, and Berliners would have cut down every tree in the city for firewood, they'd have locked you away in a rubber room

[enigma000]

89. Its easier to connect the dots if you know what to look for

As distasteful as Nazi Germany was in some respects in the 1930s, it was seen, by a majority of the German population, as an improvement from the 1920. And it was far, far better than the USSR and seem to be doing better than other Western countries.

When people in other countries, including the US, saw Germany as a positive example it wasn't because they were evil, it was because fascism ("Nazism" came later in by opinion) worked.

There was a natural expectation that the regime wasn't crazy enough to start another world war. I guess Hitler was pretty upfront about his plans, but some of it was just so nuts the reaction of most people was to dismiss it as "playing to his base".

[UncleSepp]

66. Unfortunately, the answer I have to that is not very pretty

Fortunately, seeing what's going on in America 70 years later, I have better answers.

[Generator]

68. You mean voting for Hillary Clinton won't work?

SEE they haven't beaten my twisted humour bone outta me yet.

To answer: I'm waiting and seeing. Considering options. If it's Clinton v. Bush on the ticket in 2008 or Iran is our next "freedom war" those are clues to pack it in for good.

[sakabatou]

69. Get the fuck out of "Reichland"

I'd probably be in the camps before I went underground...

[izzybeans]

70. Historians also figure that there was migration of

a lot of intellectual muscle opposed to the regime out of the country. Plus the rounding up, imprisoning and murder of political opponents. What was left were those who bow out of apathy and out of blind loyalty. Beer halls were a place to organize and affirm the Nazi identity. Imagine all the drunken salutes, the Nazi (hooligan) songs, etc.

As long as the opposition stays viable nothing of the sort can happen.

[lectrobyte]

83. Do you think we have a viable opposition? I like to think so, but

then some days the glass seems less than half full if you know what I mean.

[izzybeans]

87. True but we might be poised to get back the

Congress this year. Think half full, drink half full. and keep filling it up.

[benburch]

71. One word.

Sabotage.

[Pachamama]

73. Survive another 1yr or two until the "KristallNacht" and then get the hell

out as fast as I can?

That's what my grandparents did...they were lucky and got out....hopefully we will all be so lucky....

[endarkenment]

78. KristallNacht: Oct. 1938

I assume that is why the OP chose 1938. It was the year that the nazis 'took the gloves off' and the tyranny turned totalitarian. We aren't there yet. '38 was too late for many people who found themselves trapped by the regime and doomed.

[enigma000]

93. That's when it all went bad

As distasteful as Nazi Germany was in some respects in the 1930s, it was seen, by a majority of the German population, as an improvement from the 1920. And it was far, far better than the USSR and seem to be doing better than other Western countries.

Fascism worked. If the gloves were never taken off, and there was no world war, Germany might have continued to prosper and may have re-evolved back into a free society a generation later. The alarm bells were not sounding all that loudly in 1936.

[Javaman]

98. Our Kristallnacht will be an electronic one...

One day we will go to our computers and won't be able to get on the internet.
Our sources of information will have been locked out from us.
then via data mining and spying, all of us who express "liberal" views will be rounded up.
there will be no messy mass public executions, we will be made non-persons. We as a people of this nation have plugged ourselves so deeply into the electronic universe that a simple zeroing out of a persons identity would be sufficient to "kill" someone. And if that wasn't enough, expect a visit in the middle of the night.
No one will ask questions, no one will want to find out where their loved ones have gone to, no one will be curious.
In 1936, a good friend of mine, she's from the Ukraine, her grandfather, in the middle of the night was taken by the KGB. She told me, that her family never found out what happened to him, because just the act of asking a question regarding him meant a couple of things, 1)questions mean that the man existed at one point, 2) you make yourself suspect 3)you make your whole family suspect and 4)you don't want to know.
Our Kristallnacht will be a combination of hitler fascism and stalin communism along with their own brand of neo-republican electronic creativity.
Think it's not happening now already? Think diebold, think bankruptcy bill, think electronic ID cards, think the converting to an all ATM society. The list goes on and on. Sit for a moment and ponder just how much of your life is controlled by electronics aside from your home computer. This was done for the "ease", helping the consumer. Right.
Just my two cents.

[kevinbgoode]

74. You smuggle the gays out of the country now, while they

are still free to travel. Then you start liquidating your assets and look for ways to send your family to a safer country.

[Fovea]

75. Buy weapons, learn to use weapons

stockpile food, kerosene, first aid supplies.

Get ready for the inevitable civil war. Because the neocons and fundies *are* coming to turn Amerika into Giliad.

You may not live through it, but it is your duty not to take a few with of the criminals and cretins you when the shootin war starts...

[leeroysphitz]

80. Run N/T

[bush_is_wacko]

88. We have even fewer choices than they did. This is a worldwide

takeover. I used to think Canada might be the place to go but even they are going down the tubes. Switzerland doesn't want us and you have to have a citizen sponsor to stay there.

I'm perplexed, paralyzed and afraid at this point. Sadly, that is exactly what they were after.

[Lars39]

95. Yes, it's worldwide.

Moving from here might just be postponing the inevitable.
:hug:

[DrunkenMaster]

97. I agree completely

there is nowhere to run to now -- the tech and power is global, and the Bush admin has the poetential to create a global dictatorship.

Ok, on that note I'm going to go swallow some Vicodin. Sheeeeet.

[Javaman]

90. Take my chances and join the underground. n/t

[GumboYaYa]

92. I'm here today because my great grandparents got the hell out

of Germany in 1936. They fled to America. From my perspective, I am damn glad they did.

[slor]

96. Join the White Rose n/t

[Canuckistanian]

100. First, I'd get myself and family to a safe place

Then, I'd work like hell to educate people still in that situation.

I might even work with an active resistance movement. But extremely carefully.

[Hissyspit]

102. Academics were pressured to remain "objective" and "unbiased"

And then the Nazis took over the universities and used them as tools for the party's "unobjective" propaganda and brainwashing, sending many of those academics into exile, to camps, or worse.

[Dunvegan]

103. I was raised by a woman who lived in Germany during the run-up to WWII

...and posted about it here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2248734

Here's that post:

Do you ever leave your country...even when it has gone mad?

I ask...I don't believe it is time yet...I will probably never believe it is time...but the question is: If your country goes mad, when do you know it IS time to leave?

Here is why I ask...this question has haunted me since I was very, very young.

When I was a child my caretaker was a woman who lived in Berlin before the war and came to the US in the early 1960's. Occassionally she would talk about Nazi Germany, back when very few Germans (even ex-patriots) would mention those days. Of course, she was a German woman who moved to the United States in the '60's and married a Black engineer, so she was extraordinary in many ways politically.

I was also a child that liked indulging in adult converstion. Charlotte always conversed with me is this manner.

She said that the average German was demoralized and the economy was somewhat depressed after WWI.

Upon Hitler's rise to power, at first most people just thought that they needed to recover after their defeat in WWI, re-establish the industrial base and revitalize the economy.

The Nazi Party at first preached a renewed belief in Germany as being able to take it's place as a first-world nation once again. It lifted the spirits of a post-war Germany. It struck a cord. First with the most marginalized of society, but eventually most of the average citizenry came together to implement this renaissance.

I remember she said that slowly many of the common folk in Berlin lost all feeling for what may have been behind Hitler’s cult of personality, and began to cheer on the conquest of one European country after another without any conscience as to the morality of the adventurism, without any feeling that the enemy was human.

That even German Jews and German left-wing party members, and German homosexuals were also considered non-human.

It was then that she made a decision.

She left Berlin and married a sculptor. She moved with him to a remote aerie in the mountains of Austria for the duration of the war.

Charlotte had saved from that bleak time a collection of figures hand-carved by her Austrian husband: an example of the most amazing wood crèche sculptures I have ever seen.

Each Christmas she would decorate her entire living room with the willowy congregation, all of hand-waxed cherry wood.

I still remember them vividly: over thirty extraordinary individual sculptures, each with its own personality. They were El Greco-esque. The wise men were at least a foot and a half tall, but only a few inches wide. So hauntingly thin and poignantly forlorn...eyes looking off in the middle distance for something, perhaps some semblance of sensibility, forever seeking their infant Savior.

After the war, she returned to Berlin. She told me that the suffering of the enemies of the Fatherland that her countrymen were so callous about was the same abject suffering she and other Germans themselves now endured in a decimated capital city...a great First World capital that had set out to, in it's Fuhrer's Reich, rule the entire world for a thousand years.

To create a sort of "New Reichland Century x 10."

She told me this story one morning while making breakfast and coffee and explaining the origin of the word "ersatz"...as in "ersatz coffee."

I was eating my toast and carefully avoiding the slightly burned crust. Charlotte watched for a moment, then sat down next to me with her cup of coffee.

She said to me, "Do you know this German word 'ersatz?'

"After the war in Berlin, we had to beg. All of us. We dug in the ashes...we lived in pieces of houses. My clothing was rags. There was precious nothing to eat. Little water. No doctors. For years.

"If we could get anything, we used every part of it, everything...if we could get a potato, we would save the potato peel. Then we roasted them, and when dry, we crumbled the peels into powder which we mixed with boiled water for something hot to drink in the morning.

"That was what we called 'ersatz' coffee...that was coffee to us after the war was over.

"When the Americans came they were a blessing. Everyone tried to get to the part of Berlin where the Americans and the English were, we were afraid of the Russians because they were cruel and took revenge.

"I always remembered the soldiers of America and how they freed the Jews and left no doubt about the truth of the camps.

"The Americans cared for us, even though we were their enemies. That I why I finally came to America.

"Now, go on...eat your toast, and think…and try not to waste the crust."

Sometimes the "enemy" are just citizens...citizens...just like us.

I'm a fighter, I love my country, I love the Constitution, and have been politically active since I was a teenager, which adds up to 35+ years of activism.

However, in the back of my mind, there is something I cannot shake, and had not thought much about since I was a pre-teen.

When I was a child I wondered, even obsessed, about two things:

1. If I were in the situation the non-Nazi Germans and the German Jews were in, prior to Kristallnacht, or beyond...would I know to leave...like Charlotte?

2. Or, like many, many others in Berlin, would I stay and say, “It cannot be that bad. How far would they REALLY go? We are not savages...we are a great country, with a great heritage. This will pass before it becomes madness.”

Would I say, "I'm a citizen, I was born here, just like anyone else...what would they possibly do to me? I can speak out, this is foolish. They are made up of the bullies and cultist worshipers of the government, the fringes of society. How far could they possibly go?

"We can make them stop...at some point, surely at some point...they have to listen to reason!"

...and stay too long?

[LSK]

104. 1936 was already too late

Your only option was to flee or fully support them at that point.

[greiner3]

108. I hope I would have done the right thing;

Such as putting up impeach hitler posters at school. Post impeach hitler in the back of my car. Tell anybody that will listen what a terrible person and political leader hitler is. Barring personal violence, that's all I can do until the polls open in November. PS, I wrote a LTTE but the Columbus Dispatch, a rag run by a bunch of nazis would not print it. I live in an apt so signs, even ones in the windows facing the street are not allowed. I'll keep thinking and hopefully come up with other ways I can contribute to the downfall of hitler!