North Korea is right

[boolean]

Where are the sanctions against France for testing nukes?

Why can The U.S.A have nukes but not North Korea? Why can India, Pakistan, Israel, and China have nukes, but not North Korea?

Not that I think Kim Jong Il isn't a narcissistic wack job. But if we truly want to have a nuke free world, we have to lose the hypocrisy.

[knowbody0]

1. free thinking will get you no where

in this upside down alice in wonderland express train we seem to be on. truly we devolve.

[SammyWinstonJack]

107. !

:applause:

[bluestateguy]

2. You can't always be consistent in the world of foreign policy

Sometimes you have to just acknowledge that what you are doing is hypocrisy and move on and do it anyway.

[BlooInBloo]

28. And it's only the small-minded for whom consistency is...

... the end-all-be-all.

[petronius]

64. Indeed - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,

adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

In the current case, my opinion is that the world will be a better place if NK has no nukes than if NK does have nukes. So, our appropriate course is to work for that, regardless of a seeming inconsistency or even hypocrisy.

While it may be better for no country to have nukes, it's too late for that - genies don't go back into bottles...

[imouttahere]

3. Exactly right, boolean....

The hypocricy has always astounded me. If you haven't already, check out a book called "Why Do People Hate America" I knew some of the details of our misdeeds around the world, but this book really helps you understand not just the events but the perspective that is formed from the cumulative world experience.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

4. Fuck NK, And They Aren't Right.

By claiming they're right we are in essence agreeing that they too should be able to have nukes then. But that couldn't be more wrong. No way in hell should they have nukes. I will agree, however, that maybe all the rest of us shouldn't either, but that doesn't make it any more legitimate for their desire to have them.

[Laughing Mirror]

11. So it's all right if we nuke them

but they cannot nuke us.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

27. Nice Strawman Ya Got There. Does He Have A Name? eom

[BlooInBloo]

29. Genius.

[Dorian Gray]

140. No, it's not all right if we nuke them...

and we are SIGNIFICATNLY less likely to do so than they would be to do so if they had the technology.

[Warren Stupidity]

16. So we should commit acts of war to stop them from doing what we do?

What would you suggest? What exactly do you mean by 'fuck nk'?

[originalpckelly]

35. Well I take it to mean that OPERATIONMINDCRIME wants to...

to fuck everyone in North Korea, including Kim Jong Il. :-)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. I'd Break That Little Fucker In Half.

Bwahahahahahahaha!!!!!!

[originalpckelly]

34. This is a bunch of bullshit. I agree with you.

America doesn't carry out summary executions for those disagree with Bush or any other government officials. I don't like the actions of our country in the past few years, but this comparison is one that crosses a line.

North Korea is still technically at war with our country, and they are the only ones responsible for that fact. Their brainwashed people and insane leader do not wish to join the rest of the world and enjoy what little freedoms and liberties we have remaining (thanks to the dick and its bush.)

You are being a little ridiculous.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

36. Ok. I Was With Ya. Right Up Till The End.

You have to clarify something for me: Do you agree with me? Or do you think I'm being a little ridiculous? LOL

You said both, and I was followin your logic and agreeing with it right up until your last line of "You are being a little ridiculous". That kinda threw me off. Now I'm just oddly perpelxed. :)

[Name removed]

46. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SammyWinstonJack]

108. It would seem that we are the ONLY ONES who are allowed nukes

and we are the only ones who have used them! Something is just wrong here!

[Pavulon]

111. Yeah

just us, russia, france, india, pakistan, etc...

I prefer non proliferation. Are you suggesting everyone has nuclear arsenals.

Lets send some to the government of darfur or to syria. That would make every one safer.

Lets just give them the finished product. Help them cause mass death with out having to put in the development.

[SammyWinstonJack]

115. I am suggesting nothing. We are the only ones who have used

nuclear weapons. We give plenty to other Countries and then we call them among the "axis of evil". What are you saying, that we don't furnish these countries the means to produce nuclear weapons? We ignore mas death, without nuclear weapons.

[OllieLotte]

5. North Korea isn't a responsible country.

They are a threat to their neighbors. Not to mention their own populace.

[malaise]

6. Who have they attacked?

Please tell me.

[misternormal]

13. It is not who they "have" attacked...

... It is who they are "likely to" attack.

Kim, Il Jong, as his father before him, Kim, Il Sung have vowed to reunify Korea. That is something that has been in the plan for decades.

So, the "attacks" may go no further than their nearest neighbor to the south, South Korea, but they are a threat to do that.

[Warren Stupidity]

20. The South Koreans have also vowed to reunite Korea.

In fact, quietly and peacefully Korea is slowly moving towards normalization and unification. Very slowly. Very quietly.

There simply is no evidence of any intention by the North to restart the Korean war.

[Warren Stupidity]

60. Ah so we should attack them because of what they might do

in the future. Hmmmm.... where have I heard this sort of nonsense before?

[brmdp3123]

14. Uh, South Korea maybe.

[Warren Stupidity]

17. 50 years ago.

Who have they attacked in the last 25 years?

[malaise]

25. Looks to me like the PNAC

wants to surround China by any means necessary. That's my reading of this sorry mess. I have long said they have no intention of repaying their debts to China.

This is all about US fugging hegemony - Iraq, Iran and North Korea. They'll even re-arm the Japanese.

Sp.

[paulk]

84. Japan is already re-armed

In terms of money spent on the military, Japan ranks 6th.

And it has nothing to do with US hegemony....

[Hangingon]

42. US troops on the DMZ....

Remenber the ax murders of the wood cutting patrol. How about all the provocations on the DMZ. How about the kidnappings of the Japaneses? Remmember the Pueblo?

[Warren Stupidity]

45. Yes there are border incidents.

But the Pueblo incident was an act of war by us, not by North Korea. What exactly do you think we would do to a spy ship that North Korea put into our territorial waters?

[malaise]

47. Historical accuracy not required

bro. The US is never wrong:sarcasm:

[Hangingon]

91. I believe that ship was in international waters.

There awere plenty of trawlers in our waters and we didn't fire on them and board. Yep historical accuracy isn't important. Sarcasm

[BlooInBloo]

31. Um, South Korea? Duh.

[Hangingon]

40. South Korea

[Ediacara]

138. Well, South Korea and the United States for one thing

And literally countless numbers of their own citizens.

[razors edge]

9. I second Malaise's question and

up you one - Iran.

[Warren Stupidity]

12. Evidence?

Oh, and if being a threat to other nations disqualifies one from possessing nuclear weapons, get out a damn mirror and take a look.

Pot, kettle, black.

[Monkeyman]

7. Excuse me we do not even know they fired off a Nuke

[fooj]

18. This morning, Japan and So. Korea released a statement...

they claim there is NO evidence of a nuclear testing. Period.

Here's the link.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2562039

[OllieLotte]

33. Unfortunately, it appears that might be true. Scary huh?

It could have been underground, which would reduce the amount of radiation that can be detected. If it was a nuclear explosion, it was a "dud". NK is believed to be enriching plutonium, which is easier to enrich than uranium (Iran), which was used on Hiroshima. Nagasaki and Trinity (original test) I think were plutonium.Difficulty with that approach is that timing is more difficult and that the plutonium has to be made in small "batches" or you end up with impurities which might cause a "dud". I guess you just don't make A-bombs like chocolate chip cookies...how was Fearless Leader to know?

[DerBeppo]

8. First step in removing all nukes

is not placating new, murderous regimes from aquiring them just because they dislike * as much as we do. No, they're not "right."

[Warren Stupidity]

10. We are in violation of the NPT.

Not only did we stop our efforts to disarm our own nukes, as required by the NPT, but we have started programs to develop new nukes, a positive action in direct violation of the treaty. We should sit down and shut up.

[malaise]

26. You're too rational n/t

[insanerepubs]

15. Nobody

should have them.....

[MADem]

19. There is an obvious difference between India, France, Israel, democracies,

and NK....and Pakistan and China, by comparison, though dictatorships, are 'Party-Hearty Live and Enjoy Life' nations by comparison, with vibrant markets and access to technology.

NK keeps their people in a perpetual state of fear, servitude and starvation. A country where owning a VCR is a crime is not equivalent to the other nuke states.

And the idea behind China having nukes was so NK didn't have to. The Chinese are mightily pissed at NK for going against their express directives not to make anything radiological go boom in a mine shaft.

Most of the countries you mention don't especially want to have a nuke free world...at least not yet. They like having the ultimate weapon of deterrence, the "don't screw with ME" card. So they don't feel as though they are being 'hypocritical' at all.

And odds are good, especially with the lousy job of diplomacy our fearless leader has been doing over the past six years, they don't particularly care what we here in the USA think one way or the other.

[Warren Stupidity]

21. Interesting theory.

The one nation that used its nukes was supposedly a free market democracy.

Perhaps your theory has some problems?

[MADem]

23. The one nation that used its nukes was the ONLY nation WITH nukes

And there was a little something called World War Two happening concurrently with the use of the weapons.

There's nothing wrong with my "theory," not that I espoused one (I simply noted a few well-known truths, along with the mention that NK is NOT like the others).

You can't go back in time and apply today's 'nuclear nations' paradigms to yesterday's World War II environment. It doesn't compute.

[Warren Stupidity]

38. The point being exactly that.

The data point that we do have that appears to be relevant is that nations with nuclear weapons do not use them when other nations also have nuclear weapons. The rest of your interesting data seems to have no bearing on nuclear weapons use.

[MADem]

54. Well, the kook with the sunglasses could be the first to break your

paradigm. We'll have to wait and see.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[malaise]

30. Pakistan qualifies for everything you said re

people in a perpetual state of fear, servitude and starvation

[MADem]

62. There's no comparison between the two whatsoever

Pakistan still has poverty, and great gaps between the haves and have nots, but your average North Korean would love to be poor like your average poverty striken Pakistani.

And if you live in Osama Country, you don't fear a soul, not even the Pakistani military....


http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2792.htm

GNI (2004 estimate): $20.8 billion; 26.7% in agriculture and fishery, 27.2% in mining, 13.7% in manufacturing, 32.3% in services (2004).
Per capita GNI(2004): $914
Agriculture: Products-- rice, potatoes, soybeans, cattle, pigs, pork and eggs.
Mining and manufacturing: Types-- military products; machine building, chemicals; mining (gold, coal, iron ore, limestone, magnesite, etc.), metallurgy; textiles, food processing; tourism
Trade (2005): Exports -- $1.34 billion; minerals, non-metal products, machinery, textiles, agriculture and fishery products.
The D.P.R.K. is also thought to earn hundreds of millions of dollars from the unreported sale of missiles, narcotics and counterfeit cigarettes, and other illicit activities. Imports: $2.72 billion; petroleum, coking coal, machinery, textiles and grain.
Major trading partners : (1) China, (2)ROK, (3)Thailand, (4)Russia and (5) Japan
*In most cases, the figures used above are estimates based upon incomplete data and projections.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3453.htm

Economy
GDP (2005 est.): PPP $393.4 billion.
Real GDP growth rate (2005): 7.8%.
Per capita GDP (2005 est.): PPP $2,400.
Natural resources: Arable land, natural gas, limited oil, substantial hydropower potential, coal, iron ore, copper, salt, limestone.
Agriculture: Products--wheat, cotton, rice, sugarcane, eggs, fruits, vegetables, milk, beef, mutton.
Industry: Types--textiles & apparel, food processing, pharmaceuticals, construction materials, shrimp, fertilizer, and paper products.
Trade (2005 est.): Exports--$14.85 billion: textiles (garments, bed linen, cotton cloth, and yarn), rice, leather goods, sports goods, carpets, rugs, chemicals & manufactures. Major partners--U.S. 22.6%, United Arab Emirates 8.9%, U.K. 5.8%, China 5.4%, Germany 4.7%. Imports--$21.26 billion: petroleum, petroleum products, machinery, plastics, paper and paper board, transportation equipment, edible oils, pulses, iron and steel, tea. Major partners--China 14.0%, Saudi Arabia 10.5%, United Arab Emirates 9.0%, Japan 6.2%, U.S. 5.1%, Kuwait 5.1%, Germany 4.9%.

[sandnsea]

22. North Korea has a truly delusional regime

Their people are completely cut off from the world and have no ability to challenge the lunacy of their leader. They have no media at all, no outside telephone communication, absolutely nothing. Watch for Lisa Ling's visit to North Korea and then maybe you will understand why this is completely different than any other country on the planet. It is stunning how completely closed off they are. We need to work diligently to bring these people into the world, they deserve better than what they have under this nut. It's a disgrace that Bush trashed South Korea's attempts to change the North through engagement with the people, we would have been leaps and bounds ahead right now if that had gone forward. But to advocate for a nuclear North Korea is just as nuts. Even strong defenders of the 2nd Amendment tend to agree that criminals shouldn't have guns and it's the same with North Korea.

[Warren Stupidity]

43. Every nation has the right to self defense.

Even if you think North Korea has a delusional regime, the fact is that they are a sovereign nation. They have been threatened by us with military force, put on the short list of nations scheduled for dismantlement. As a consequence they have developed the means to defend themselves.

North Korea is not that much different from Stalinist Russia or Maoist China, both of which owned and operated nuclear weapons without ever using them.

[sandnsea]

50. It's a different world

Despite Bush's complete ineptness, this is a world that is attempting to work together to reduce nuclear weapons and war. It's bad enough when the superpowers have nukes, allowing them to spread to every tin dictator is just incredibly stupid. Your logic is 2nd Amendment Ted Nugent logic, nukes for everybody!! It's stupid as it applies to guns and is certainly stupid as applies to nukes. This is one of those instances that clearly demonstrates why the far left doesn't get a seat at any political table.

The world, through the UN, has laid down the law. No nukes for North Korea. Bush's bluster is unfortunate, but the truth is, it's the UN pushing North Korea towards peace. They aren't responding to that either, and they could if they wanted to. There is absolutely NO danger in North Korea putting down its nukes and opening its doors to the world. That's the ultimate goal and I have absolutely no personal use for people who choose to ignore that in favor of some misguided 'save the world from the imperialists' notion. You are not doing the people of North Korea any favors with that attitude. The situation in North Korea is as dire as Darfur and shame on the left for not making a strong campaign for change in North Korea too.

[Warren Stupidity]

57. No it is not a different world.

And as for "this is a world that is attempting to work together to reduce nuclear weapons" - uh not as far as the USA is concerned. We stopped disarmament negotiations with the Russians and stopped our own disarmement programs. Worse, we have restarted weapons development programs. Worse still, we have revised our military doctrines and moved the bar on our first use policy. And finally in an act that can only be described as insane, criminally insane, we have threatened, informally, to use nuclear weapons against Iran on a first strike basis. As usual, in this supposedly different world, it is one policy for those we can bully and coerce, and another policy for those we can't, and yet another policy for our exceptional above the law selves.

[sandnsea]

63. Consider the rest of the world

And remove the US from your equation. The rest of the world doesn't want them to have nukes and wants them to have a more open society. US nuke policy can be debated, but it's got nothing to do with the global policy towards North Korea. You're so far out on your statements that not one security council country agrees with you, not even China or Russia. I can't think of a country, save maybe Iran, that has come out in support of N Korea having nukes. It's flat stupid.

[Warren Stupidity]

66. "And remove the US from your equation. "

Yeah sure if it wasn't for us this would be a different world. Ok, now back to reality, to this world.

[sandnsea]

68. Well there IS the rest of the world

And US policy should consider the views of the rest of the world, as well as lead in a better direction when necessary. Are you saying the rest of the world is wrong in its goals of nonproliferation, or that the US shouldn't lead in that effort?? Are you saying that pushing all countries to have open societies for its people, and respect human rights, is wrong??

[Warren Stupidity]

69. Yes of course.

"US policy should consider the views of the rest of the world" - yes of course, but in fact we generally don't, and certainly haven't at all for the last six years.

"Are you saying the rest of the world is wrong in its goals of nonproliferation, or that the US shouldn't lead in that effort??"

As we are an NPT violator we should sit down, clean our own house, and let others lead here. Specifically China, South Korea, Russia, and Japan, aka North Korea's neighbors.

"Are you saying that pushing all countries to have open societies for its people, and respect human rights, is wrong??"

No - where did I ever say that? But we haven't done that, instead we have threatened North Korea with regime change. In doing so we sabatoged South Korea's long patient efforts to normalize the north. We are buffoons on the world stage, blustering dangerous idiots.

We need to clean our own house first, stop our own human rights violations, stop exempting our own actions from international rules and treaties, stop acting like the planetary hegemon, stop bloody well threatening other nations with our own nuclear weapons, and then perhaps we can find a way to have a positive constructive influence on world affairs. But right here and now in this world as it is our policy with respect to North Korea is useless, dangerously useless, and laughably hypocritical.

[sandnsea]

70. You're not considering the rest of the world

You keep attacking our policy, this President, as if it is ALL that matters on the global stage. I asked you about the REST of the world. When you can write a statement about global policy, nonproliferation, and N Korea, without mentioning the US at all, then you've thought the situation through completely. What position do you suggest the rest of the nuclear nations in the world take towards N Korea?? Where is your criticism of the security council, denying N Korea the right to defend itself. Why is you going against the rest of the world on N Korea so different than Bush going against the rest of the world on Iraq?

[Warren Stupidity]

71. Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote.

"As we are an NPT violator we should sit down, clean our own house, and let others lead here. Specifically China, South Korea, Russia, and Japan, aka North Korea's neighbors."

Our role should be to agree to normalization of relations with North Korea - the conditions they have been asking for repeatedly in exchange for the decomissioning of their nuclear programs.

[OllieLotte]

74. That is unacceptable to Kim Jong. He has said that several times.

Talks are to be between US & North Korea alone per Fearless Leader.

The US & North Korea had unilateral talks when the reactor deal was struck in the 90's. Made the South Koreans and Japanese unhappy that we did it without them. What you are suggesting, the talks with China etc are unacceptable to the "Great One".

[Warren Stupidity]

83. We should resume unilateral talks.

We need to end the state of war and normalize our relations with North Korea. Concurrently the multiparty talks should also be resumed.

"Talks are to be between US & North Korea alone per Fearless Leader." What North Korea has actually demanded is that we formally agree to not nuke them or attack them and that we normalize our political and economic relations with them. I realize that makes Kim a lunatic, I just don't know why.

[sandnsea]

75. Well that's Bush's plan

Let other countries lead on NK and normalize relations when the nuclear program has been stopped. If it were that simple, this would have been solved years ago. Obviously, it's not that simple.

And please tell me, why do these other countries have a right to tell NKorea it can't have nukes, but the US doesn't have that right. Do you honestly trust China with nukes more than the US?? Do you think China and Russia have never secretly broken a nuclear treaty???

[Warren Stupidity]

77. I wasn't clear.

Let the others lead while we normalize relations concurrently - without preconditions. And this is not the Bush plan. We won't talk unilaterally to them at all. What I said is that we should stop doing what we are doing now, which is running around threatening the North Koreans with regime change, with sanctions, with military action, while refusing to talk to them 1-1, let alone have normal diplomatic relations.

Since the 94 agreements North Korea has held the position that it would end its weapons program in exchange for formal assurances against the threat or use of nuclear weapons by the United States and normalization of relations - political and economic - between North Korea and the United States. We should have taken them up on that offer, unfortunately we got Bush and his blustering idiotic threatening instead, and now we have a nuclear North Korea.

"why do these other countries have a right to tell NKorea it can't have nukes"

If they sit down and say 'you can't have nukes' the North Koreans will get up and walk out. So that would be stupid, right? They should be responsible, as North Korea's neighbors, for undoing the damage done by the Bush regime as best as possible. There is nothing at all wrong with the multiparty talks, what is wrong is that the six hundred pound gorilla in the room, that would be us, refuses to talk to the North Koreans directly, refuses to agree to not nuke North Korea, and refuses to even discuss normalization of relations. We need to rethink our policy first and then restart the efforts that lead to the 94 agreement. Obviously we need regime change at home before that is going to happen.

"Do you honestly trust China with nukes more than the US?? Do you think China and Russia have never secretly broken a nuclear treaty???"

Everyone secretly breaks weapons treaties. That is all part of the game. Do I trust our leaders? No. We walked away from the ABM treaty, and we have allowed the SALT/START and related disarmament efforts to wither, and we have restarted our own weapons development programs, and we have changed our first use policy to allow for initiating tactical nuclear strikes against anyone we feel like attacking. I don't recall similar behavior by either the Russians or the Chinese, but perhaps you can document your case.

[sandnsea]

81. If they have a sovereign right to defense...

then what the hell is there to talk about?? Nothing, it would seem to me.

So apparently, everything you said in this thread was left wing blustering bullshit. When it gets right down to it, you don't believe North Korea should have nukes at all.

Criticize the US policy all you want, but don't lead with the idiotic notion that North Korea has a right to nukes, because they don't. The world has made that decision, and rightfully so. Defending North Korea's nuclear ambitions is a stupid place to start a debate about US or global nuclear policy from.

Very few people would disagree that Bush's North Korea policy has been completely ineffective, but that's not what your original claim was about.

[Warren Stupidity]

85. When in doubt go for the red baiting.

"When it gets right down to it, you don't believe North Korea should have nukes at all. " I don't think anyone should have nukes, and I believe that every nation has a right to self defense. Those two concepts are in conflict here. How is North Korea supposed to defend itself against attack by the United States without nuclear weapons?

Your appeal to world government "The world has made that decision, and rightfully so" is interesting considering that we have made it clear that we consider the UN to be a nuisance and an obstacle to our true role as planetary ruler. So its international laws and treaties for everyone else, but we just get to do our own thing. What should the world be doing about us?

You might think that our policies and North Korea's nuclear ambitions are separate, but they are not. They are directly related. It is our policies that have lead directly to the current situation. You cannot possibly convince the North Koreans to give up their nuclear weapons while we have them on the short list of nations slated for regime change.

What should be and what is are two different things. Once again, our current regime's policies toward North Korea are threatening and stupid and have had the obvious consequence that, feeling directly threatened and having had the 94 agreement scrapped on them, North Korea played the only card it had and built some weapons. So now we are confronted with a nuclear North Korea (perhaps.) The Bush policy has been a complete failure. Our silly resolution we got out of the UN will go nowhere and accomplish nothing. What then?

North Korea is now a nuclear state. Perhaps normalization of relations would be a good idea.

[sandnsea]

89. Red baiting??

I don't even know what that means, but nice way to stick something in your subject line to make someone else look bad. You also keep going back to Bush's policies, as if anybody on this board supports them. Well, except you, as was indicated back in your post #79.

No, disarmament should still be the goal; in N Korea, and all countries eventually. Bush made the mistake of scrapping the framework the first chance he got, we shouldn't make the same mistake now. We have to keep pushing forward, accepting nukes in any of these third-rate dictator countries would be a tragic mistake.

[Warren Stupidity]

95. "everything you said in this thread was left wing blustering bullshit"

Thanks for playing.

[sandnsea]

100. rotfl, that's red baiting?

Okaaay. :rofl: :rofl:

[Warren Stupidity]

104. So if I say that your idiocy is right wing bullshit

that is not patently offensive?

[sandnsea]

117. If it is, it is

But I haven't spewed any right wing idiocy. (Oddly enough, you did) Anyway, you spent the bulk of the thread advocating a far left ideology justifying North Korea's nukes, (which it turns out you don't really support). Do you deny supporting these third rate countries having nukes is from the far left? Sounds like idiocy to me. Don't shoot the messenger.

[OllieLotte]

53. So what do you think the enlightened Kim Jong is working on?

Is that him there with the porch light on?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=410158&in_page_id=1811

Calling North Korea a sovereign nation (counterfeiting/drug smuggling)is an insult to real sovereign nations. A real sovereign nation should be looking out for its people.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavulon]

93. Kim will take care of that

consider the next time he fires a multi stage rocket that has a trajectory towards the us or japan.

Or policy on this is clearly stated in the NPR. We are bound to assume the missiles are nuclear and defend japan.

Our missiles will cross in flight. His most probably will blow up in mid air, ours will kill millions.

He is a delusional ass and has no business with nuclear weapons.

This is deadly serious and anything having to do with nuclear war is quite serious.

This has the potential to spillover into the next administration.

[Ediacara]

141. This is not an appropriate comparison

China and the Soviet Union had safeguards to protect against accidental or pissed-off launches. The politburo would not allow Kruschev or Mao to launch nukes because he was a little pissy. There is no such safeguard in North Korea as Kim is not only an absolute ruler, but a fucking deity.

[JI7]

73. Lisa Ling was on Oprah a few days ago

the NK Government made a huge deal out of a fashion magazine she had. it was just a fashion magazine but they control things so much that they wont even allow something like that to be looked at by others since women might see it and want to be or have that. even if it is just fashion.

it's not just about NK being a communist government run by a dictator. it goes beyond just that. i mean people escape there to go to China which is also communist.

CNN also had a special on NK which was good. and an internet site with photos of NK were posted on DU a few times. they are interesting to look at.

[paulk]

24. apparently, it's just you and NK that think that

the rest of the world seems to think NK is wrong...

U.N. Adopts Resolution Against N. Korea

North Korea Saturday August 12, 2000. From Associated Press
October 14, 2006 1:52 PM EDT

UNITED NATIONS - The U.N. Security Council voted unanimously on Saturday to impose punishing sanctions on North Korea for its claimed nuclear test, declaring that its action posed "a clear threat to international peace and security."

North Korea immediately rejected the resolution, and its U.N. ambassador walked out of the council chamber after accusing its members of a "gangster-like" action which neglects the nuclear threat posed by the United States. Ambassador Pak Gil Yon said North Korea wants talks but warned that it will consider increased U.S. pressure a declaration of war.

[NNN0LHI]

51. But the measure specifically excludes military force...

Them are some real tough sanctions there.

:boring:

Don

[Hosnon]

32. The fundamental premise the world works from is nonproliferation.

Getting rid of current nukes is a different issue requiring different tactics.

There is no contradiction or hypocrisy.

[Disturbed]

39. Sanctions against NK haven't been productive so the

solution is more stringent sanctions. :crazy:

[Warren Stupidity]

41. Actually the NPT requires disarmament.

The treaty links both nonproliferation to non-nuclear states and disarmament of the nuclear states. They are not separate issues and we are in direct violation. The problem of course is that nobody dares to call us out on our bullshit and everyone plays along with our bullying behavior.

[BoneDaddy]

44. There are no sanctions on France

because France was responsible for aiding in the downfall of the Nazi empire building with it's very proficient underground and information system in WW2. Because France has been our ally for almost 100 years militarily. Because they are part of the European Democratic system and a trading partner and the list can go on and on.

VS.

North Korea: fought a brutal and unsucessful war with them in the 50's which led to the separation of N and S Korea. They have maintained tight Communist control over their people. They currently are led by a military dictatorship that has threatened the US on numerous occasions. Unlike Iraq and Saddam, this guy actually seems to have nuclear weapons and is not afraid of waving them around in a "cowboy" fashion. Now you might say that the US is no different and I would certainly agree, but the question is why were the French and the N. Koreans held to different standards and the answer, to me, is obvious.

We have developed a level of trust with the French, that unfortunately lately has been strained, that we do not have with the N. Koreans. Double standard? Absolutely, but a valid one.

[malaise]

49. Well North Korea doesn't trust

the US either and they know what was done to Japan. Further they know about the 655,000 dead Iraqis.

[BoneDaddy]

90. Absolutely true

which does not make for a good after school special. These are dangerous times. But just because these men Kim Jung Il and Ahmidinjad (sp?) have the courage to speak out against the US does not make them good men or their agenda valid. As much as I despise GW Bush and his band of thug murderous thieves, I still see our detractors as being as nuts and as dangerous.

Dangerous men have their finger on the bomb more than any time in recent history.

[Pavulon]

94. Please

the us has been following the rules for 50 years. If North Korea starts a war the 600k number will die in hours, assuming it is conventional. Nuclear, in three shakes of a lambs tail.

We killed a million chinese in korea and there would be millions of deaths in any war there.

There arsenal gains them nothing.

If the us wanted to we could drop b-61 gravity bombs from black jets. No notice nuclear destruction. They have no second strike capability. We could then pour in nuclear bombs at will.

We have had that capability for a decade.

We have not exercised it.

They are the aggressor, firing missiles into the sea of japan with no notice. Wars start that way.

Now the us has to assume any ballistic missile from n korea is nuclear, we are now required to respond with the same. Ours dont blow up at 40 seconds in, ours do not recall. They deliver their 400kt bombs as designed.

Get your head on straight. This is a fat fucking mess and has put every person in n and s korea in greater danger.

[geek tragedy]

48. Hugo Chavez and the rest of the planet disagree with

your juvenile reasoning.

[boolean]

52. Tell me why NK doesn't have a legitimate beef

The chimp has killed over 600,000 innocent Iraqi civilians so far. Where are the UN sanctions there?

Why don't you people get that the "Do as I say, not as I do" policy doesn't work? What fucking choice does NK have when chimpler refuses to even talk one on one? Why should they listen to ANYONE, when everyone else does what they want?

It's about the hypocrisy. "We have nukes but you can't have them"
"They can have nukes because they are our friend and you are not". Mix in a preemptive war policy and what do you get?

When Kim Jong Il says he's afraid * will attack him, his fears are legitimate. No matter how fucking crazy he is.

[JI7]

72. there is a certain reason why the world doesn't want NK to have nukes

considering the wealthy our nation has compared to everyone else i don't think sanctions would be effective against the US.

some of us are able to condemn what Bush does and do the same with other things rather than just judging based on which side Bush is on.

[bridgit]

55. North Korea is not right, the are off the map where the monsters are...

[Warren Stupidity]

59. ah yes - they are perhaps 'the other' who it is permitted to kill.

Always we will find a way to rationalize violence.

[bridgit]

61. keep the crazy talk for somebody else, there are no innocents in this...

game; including the ones that insist on seeing things sideways

[Warren Stupidity]

65. You declared an entire nation to be monsters.

What am I supposed to think of that other than you believe that it is permissable to kill the people of North Korea if their leaders do not submit to our authority?

"They are monsters", "Kim is a nut job", all the usual nonsense to make us feel comfortable with our own pending monstrous behavior, our own nutcase leaders, as we start the killing machine up somewhere else.

650,000 dead Iraqis on our hands, but Kim is a monster and a bloody tyrant who cannot be trusted. Nobody sees the irony here?

[bridgit]

67. don't dilute yourself, Kim IS Nuke Korea; and he would tell you that...

himself along with the others that think that he is up & including vast tracts of the millions he is starving to death for his cognac at the point of a gun, or the end of a bloody stick...yours are the basest of straw dog "What am I supposed to think of that other than you believe that it is permissable to kill the people of North Korea if their leaders do not submit to our authority" what gibberish that

to misalign the attitudes of anyone here with respect to bush & what needs to be done even further so imo, they are rovian 'the absence of debate tactics' and i do not accept them sorry

[DocSavage]

76. How about

this. Kim is not a nut job, totally within his rights to posess nukes. If he wants to play with the big dogs, pony up the pot. He now has the enjoyable knowledge that if he uses one, countries respond in kind. Lot different from moving an army across the DMZ. Of cours, seeing how he does not give 2 cents about the people of his country, seeing mushroom clouds over his country will not faze him. All we have to do is keep one SSBN floating around the pacific, and he is checkmated. Furthermore, the US shoud just say, any nuke detonated on american soil will be considered NK designed and built. Retaliate in kind.

Let him keep his nukes, you got any ideas how to control the idiot? All I see from your posts is defense of the clown, well tell us all that you actually trust him.

[Disturbed]

78. Is NK nutz for thinking that America may attack them?

General Peter Pace says war with N. Korea would be messy but we can win.

[DocSavage]

80. Of course

if the country opened the borders with the south, there would be NO worring about a US attack. People would have enough to eat, there would be jobs, and Japan would be worried that Korea would become the predominate mfg power in the far east. But no, the clown keeps the country closed, rattles sabors, worries the Chinese, Soviets, Japanese, well, just about anyone in thier geo area. I think that the President for Life has more to worry about than the US. China is where I would be looking, because if the North becomes a radioactive wastland because of him, they have to live with it. And they do not want millions of NK refugees coming into thier country.

[Warren Stupidity]

79. I trust that North Korea won't use whatever nukes they have

absent our attacking North Korea first because, like all the other nations in the nuclear club, North Korea, lunatic leader or not, is not up for suicide.

We can control the idiot by following the lead of South Korea, which has been working patiently to normalize the North. Contact, not isolation, is what will change North Korea.


By the way, I have not defended the stalinist regime at all, other than to refuse to buy into the theory that Kim is a lunatic and that North Korea is unlike any other country on the planet. It is just another dismal stalinist regime. Like all stalinist regimes, if we are patient, it will unravel all on its own and either reform or be replaced by its own people.

[DocSavage]

82. Good for you

unfortunatly, most of the world does not agree with you. But a voice in the wilderness....yada yada yada.

What about the idiot selling them, any worry there?

[Warren Stupidity]

86. So what would you suggest?

Shock and Awe?

[DocSavage]

92. Nah

no need. The chinese will take care of it. When it gets right down to it. they do not trust that idiot any more than we do. There will be no shock and awe, just 10 million chinese army troops going across the border to make it another state. You think the death toll in Iraq is high, just wait.

[Disturbed]

87. South Korea wanted to open the Border

but the Regime in the US pressured hard to keep that from happening.

The goal of the Busholini Regime was to force NK to implode by starving the people of NK. Regime change was and is the Top Priority. This pushed NK to develope Nukes. The situation was not handled in a reasonable way and still is not.

[bling bling]

88. Life isn't fair.

Lots of things aren't fair. I think it's easier to come to terms with that sometimes because it's not going to change.

And on this issue, the less countries with nukes, the better I sleep at night. I'm not gonna go to bat for Kim Jong Il, Bin Laden or any other dictatorial maniac who hates America to have nukes just cuz we get to have 'em.

Fair schmair.

Not that what any of us think is going to stop NK. IIRC, nobody wanted India and Pak to have nukes either but they did it anyway and life went on.......

.....at least so far

[Pavulon]

96. Generally **buy a damn clue**(not to op)

NK is an oppressor nation. They do not permit their civilians to leave. They have taken hostile action against s korean civilian and military personnel. They are a failed nation.

NK is not a victim, they are dangerous.

The US has had 50 years to start a war there and we have not. The US has blind first strike capability. We could use gravity dropped nuclear bombs to decimate n korea with zero notice, we have had that capability for at least a decade.

The US has nothing to gain from a war there. This is not a political problem, this sequence of events puts every person in that region in danger.

Pakistan was sanctioned when it popped its bomb. N Korea will be to, so that is the reality of it.

The new reality is that the us and china will now assume any ballistic missile fired at them from n. korea is nuclear. Any more missiles fly towards hawaii the us WILL launch a nuclear strike. Nuclear missiles do not recall, they do not have the ability to self destruct. If it turns out to be a lil kim joke or blows up in the first stage kim will have killed his nation. Our missiles will continue to their target and kill millions of people. Because of this nutcase asshole.

That will kill tens of millions. This is not a political side show. This is not a joke.
These are the rules to the big boy club, he got his seat, if he fucks up it will make the holocaust look like a car wreck.

[Warren Stupidity]

99. Nuclear weapons, so far, have made nations more responsible

not less. Despite all the rhetoric, the end result of this may in fact be normalized relationships between North Korea and the rest of the world, an end to the 50 year state of war at the DMZ, and a resumption of the slow transformation of the North into something less rhetro-stalinist as the efforts of the South to engage with the North are restarted and begin to resume their slow work.

"Pakistan was sanctioned when it popped its bomb. N Korea will be to, so that is the reality of it."

Oh, those kind of sanctions. So we are going to impose wink wink nod nod sanctions on North Korea. OK, no problem.
'

[Pavulon]

106. The kind

that the EU and US enforced were significant. Sanctions are the correct course of action

[Warren Stupidity]

112. Oh really?

Effective in what way?

[Pavulon]

114. Define effective?

cause a nation to collapse, no. Cost it billions in trade, yep.

[OldSiouxWarrior]

142. You are making one error.

The new reality is that the us and china will now assume any ballistic missile fired at them from n. korea is nuclear. Any more missiles fly towards hawaii the us WILL launch a nuclear strike.

Even during the cold war, the US nuclear forces were not on "cocked pistol" alert status. In the popular imagination, people thought that we were and the warheads would pass each other over the North Pole. But the reality, to avoid accidental launch, was that we would ride out their first strike, and the launch what remained. (That was why we had so damn many missiles. To make sure some survived.) With NK, launching while their missile is in the air will not stop it from impacting, so to prevent accidently going to nuclear war, we will absorb their first strike, and then destroy them if it is a nuclear strike.

Although many here are against an attempt at a missile defense, NK is a good reason to have one. Then we don't have to destroy a country over a few missiles.

[Cleita]

97. I'm afraid I have to agree with you but

pointing out the obvious isn't going to change the problem this has created. Also, I don't agree with sanctioning N. Korea. Kim isn't going to be hurt by it, but the poor people already starving under him will suffer.

From what I have read from previous diplomatic dealings with him, he can be convinced with a few carrots and some assurance that we won't blow him to bits to comply. He can't be entirely trusted to comply with agreements but he can be contained.

Unfortunately, we are lacking that kind of diplomacy in our own wacky administration to accomplish this. Quite honestly I believe he and the unholy triumvirate running our government will all share the same circle of Hell when the time comes. They are all the same.

[Pavulon]

98. N korea = E germany

Kim is an oppressor. He is a liar, he cheated and began enriching and working on his bomb right after blowing smoke up our asses. He starves his people and will not let them leave.

The guards on the border face north. To prevent citizens from leaving.

The us has not fired ballistic missiles towards nations with no notice.

If this happens again it will start a nuclear war.

Pakistan was sanctioned, N korea will be sanctioned.

Japan will now expand its military.

[Cleita]

101. Well, East Germany worked out so well under our sanctions

didn't it? I cannot condone a system that starves out people because of it's crappy leaders. I feel as strongly about this as I do about torture to get all that imminent important information.

Also, your statement:

The us has not fired ballistic missiles towards nations with no notice.

How do you know? We aren't getting all the news you know. If it hasn't happened, how can you be sure it won't happen in the future? Mr. Bush has done everything to discredit his integrity. The bellicose fool will do what he can get away with. He just hasn't been able to get away with this yet.

But getting back to nukes, what if it were the Russians who had developed the bomb and not us? Wouldn't we want the recipe? We couldn't trust the Russians to be contained back then, but we can't trust our own USA government to be contained today with the Nazis now running our government.

Quite honestly, if we are all pointing nukes at each other we will be safer. It happened during the cold war between us and Russia. No one was fool enough to punch that red button.

[Pavulon]

109. Yep it did

How do I know we dont fire icbms at other nations..Because we were not nuked by the ussr. you think if we launched missiles toward the ussr (now russia) or china they would do nothing?

East germany's citizens are no longer a prisoner in their own nation. The ussr went broke.

Actually it came pretty close in cuba.

I dislike bush but am sure the US will not start lobbing ballistic missiles around. As N korea has done more than once.

the USSR was a large nation with a control method over their arsenal.

Not run buy a guy who kidnaps japanese to make movies.

[Cleita]

116. So your solution is more of the same that has proved not

to work in the past for ordinary people. We know about Cuba, and Kennedy was right to do what he did.

However, this Bush picked a fight with N. Korea for no reason. Clinton already had tried diplomacy with him and it was working until Mr. allhatandnocattle had to come up with that axis of evil speech.

Also, since I live near Vandeburg AFB lots of stuff is being launched from there. Sometimes they tell us and a lot of times they don't. However, the ground shaking (not earthquakes...there is a difference between blasts and earthquakes...I grew up in a mining camp where there were also a lot of earthquakes and I know the difference) and huge red glows in that direction on dark nights (I live on a hill and see a lot) tell a different story.

[Pavulon]

118. I was in the NG

when that agreement was made. There was talk of war. Clinton was not a pushover and the stick was on the table. Activation was being discussed. (turned out to be bosnia) We increased strength there and were prepared to take military action.

We do not fire ICBMs un announced. That is an act of war.

[Cleita]

119. So what are they firing then?

Do you really think we can trust this leadership to tell us the truth and follow the rules when up until now they have done the opposite?

[Pavulon]

120. ANNOUNCED

tests. Weapons that either do not traject towards or overfly other nations.

I can tell you they are NOT firing unannounced icbm's towards china or russia.

[Cleita]

121. I'm telling you that they aren't always announced.

Eyewitness here.

[Pavulon]

124. The last time

we screwed up and did not notify on a icbm test we put the soviets a short time away from firing on us. Some shot near finland as memory serves. 70' 80's.

I can tell you the us does not fire ICBM's at other nations. We announced the test after the n koreans fired on the same day as a shuttle launch.

I am sorry you do not have access to the channels which we use to notify the nations we are shooting off tests. I dont.

[Warren Stupidity]

103. "he cheated and began enriching and working on his bomb "

Actually the plutonium reactor was shut down and stayed shut down until Bush abolished the '94 agreement. The bombs that the North may or may not have successfully made were produced from the plutonium reactor that was shut down by the 94 agreement and was not reopened until 2002-3. The current situation is a direct result of Bush's stupid hard ass no negotiations no deals policy.

[Pavulon]

105. No

They are the result of a nation lying and breaking an agreement. Not cutting bush slack but n korea is not to be trusted.

[Warren Stupidity]

110. You really should check the facts.

The agreed framework applied to North Korea's plutonium program. In '97 North Korea started a uranium enrichment program that was not covered by the '94 framework. We objected, but then again we had also not supplied the agreed on reactors that were our part of the deal, in addition to the fuel oil, which we did deliver. In 2002 Bush abolished the framework, not North Korea. It was after that dumbass move that the plutonium plant was re-opened.

"With the abandonment of its plutonium program, North Korea began an enriched uranium program. Pakistan, through Abdul Qadeer Khan, supplied key technology and information to North Korea in exchange for missile technology around 1997, according to U.S. intelligence officials.

This program was publicized in October 2002 when the United States asked North Korean officials about the program, <3>. Although the Agreed Framework specifically prohibited then-existing plutonium programs, not uranium, the U.S. argued North Korea violated the "spirit" of the agreement. In December 2002, the United States terminated the 1994 Agreed Framework, suspending fuel oil shipments.

North Korea responded by announcing plans to reactivate a dormant nuclear fuel processing program and power plant north of Pyongyang. North Korea soon thereafter expelled U.N. inspectors and withdrew from the Non-Proliferation Treaty."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_nuclear_weapons_program

It is wikipedia, but the facts cited can be cross checked. If there is bias in that excerpt it is the failure to note that we failed to deliver the nuclear power plants that were supposed to substitute for the plutonium plant that they shut down.

Do keep regurgitating the official narrative though.

[Pavulon]

113. Good

I am glad wikipedia has provided you a source of information. Jane's and Foreign policy magazine are other good sources..All secondary sources.

They didn't develop the bomb in 4 years.

Here is the reality. Now that they are a nuclear nation, any stupid shit like firing multi stage missiles towards the conus will start a nuclear war.

I will repeat that. If n korea fires missiles again they will draw a nuclear response IN FLIGHT. Even if they blow up 5 minutes in or self destruct.

The talk is nice. The above is the new reality.

The real consequences is that everyone has a greater danger of death. This will effect the next presidency, this has gone on for 50 years.

There is no official line here. Look at the pieces on the board and draw a conclusion.

[Warren Stupidity]

122. They didn't develop the bomb in 4 years.

Really? I would never have guessed. So have you dropped your assertion that they cheated and that was all there was to it? That's the offical line from the white house and it is bullshit.

[Pavulon]

126. This

is common fact. they cheated, state says they cheated, other nations agreee they cheated. The UN agrees to it.

Talk politics all you want.

Bottom line, this puts people in danger. Kim is worshiped as a god and could cause the death of millions with some bullshit stunt like firing an icbm towards the us.

The rules to engage this act have been around before bush. They will be executed if a missile flies towards us. There is an entire system dedicated to this and it has been around a long time. It does not care who the president is.

[Warren Stupidity]

127. Oh so you dispute this account?

"With the abandonment of its plutonium program, North Korea began an enriched uranium program. Pakistan, through Abdul Qadeer Khan, supplied key technology and information to North Korea in exchange for missile technology around 1997, according to U.S. intelligence officials.

This program was publicized in October 2002 when the United States asked North Korean officials about the program, <3>. Although the Agreed Framework specifically prohibited then-existing plutonium programs, not uranium, the U.S. argued North Korea violated the "spirit" of the agreement. In December 2002, the United States terminated the 1994 Agreed Framework, suspending fuel oil shipments.

North Korea responded by announcing plans to reactivate a dormant nuclear fuel processing program and power plant north of Pyongyang. North Korea soon thereafter expelled U.N. inspectors and withdrew from the Non-Proliferation Treaty."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_nuclear_weapons_program

Before you seemed to just dismiss it as second hand. Which parts are false?

They did not cheat on the 94 framework. The framework covered the plutonium plant, not the uranium enrichment plants subsequently built. Our objection was the weak 'they violated the spirit of the agreement', which alongside the fact that we violated the letter of the agreement by failing to deliver the reactors we committed to deliver, becomes even weaker. The plutonium plant - the one explicitly covered by the agreement, remained closed until we abolished the agreement in 2002. The North Koreans did not cheat on the agreement in any major way.

"This is common fact. they cheated, state says they cheated, other nations agreee they cheated. The UN agrees to it."

Well except of course that this is not what happened and you cannot provide anything more credible than 'it is common fact'. Which part of the account I cited is false?

[Pavulon]

128. The nuclear

explosion countermands your position. The idea was to draft an agreement to prevent them from developing the bomb.

They did cheat. I will take the time to pick apart your wikipedia info later.

The nuclear test pretty much does that for me..

Bottom line, they have made korea a much more dangerous place to live.

[Warren Stupidity]

129. You are off wandering in the weeds.

Go read the other accounts of the framework agreement readily available on line. You just keep repeating the Official Party Line, but oddly you can't actually provide any credible evidence to back up your assertions. If you have some facts at your disposal please do bring them up. So far you haven't.

[Pavulon]

130. SIOP

The purpose was to prevent the n koreans from going nuclear. You keep talking about some party line. Whose party line?

Whose line has an interest in a nuclear war. SIOP makes a nuclear north korea more dangerous.

enjoy.
http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/agreedframework.asp

Looks like this is fucked into cocked hat..

[Warren Stupidity]

133. Did you even read it?

"The most recent nuclear crisis began when Washington announced that Pyongyang admitted during an October 4, 2002 bilateral meeting to possessing a uranium-enrichment program, which could be used to build nuclear weapons and would violate North Korea’s commitment to forgo the acquisition of such weapons. North Korea has denied that it said this. In response to the reported admission, KEDO suspended oil shipments to North Korea the next month. North Korea reacted December 12 by announcing that it would restart the nuclear facilities governed by the Agreed Framework. After a series of exchanges with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), IAEA inspectors left the country December 31 after Pyongyang expelled them. North Korea announced on January 10, 2003 that it was withdrawing from the NPT, effective the next day. Pyongyang’s official status with the treaty remains ambiguous."

http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/agreedframework.asp

Where exactly is the part where it is beyond doubt and a simple fact that North Korea cheated on the agreement? Bush's minion claims that they said one thing, North Korea says they didn't say that at all, and then we pulled the plug. We know that the Bush administration wanted to scuttle the agreement, and that is exactly what they did.

By the way, the bomb material (if the bombs even work) came from the plutonium reactors that it is not even a question were shutdown and under inspection until we blew the agreement away, not from weapons grade uranium enrichment facilities.

Your argument appears to be "well they have a bomb now so they must have cheated back then". That is a bit ridiculous.

[Pavulon]

134. Yep here is the part you ignored. we paid lots, they have the bomb.

North Korean Obligations

* Reactor Freeze and Dismantlement: The framework calls for North Korea to freeze operation of its 5-megawatt reactor and plutonium-reprocessing plant at Yongbyon and construction of a 50-megawatt reactor at Yongbyon and a 200-megawatt plant at Taechon. These facilities are to be dismantled prior to the completion of the second light-water reactor.

North Korea has restarted the reactor. Although North Korea has said it is developing a nuclear deterrent, it has not explicitly threatened to use any spent fuel from its restarted reactor to build nuclear weapons.

* Inspections: North Korea must come into "full compliance" with IAEA safeguards when a "significant portion of the project is completed, but before delivery of key nuclear components." Full compliance includes taking all steps deemed necessary by the IAEA to determine the extent to which North Korea diverted material for weapons use in the past, including giving inspectors access to all nuclear facilities in the country. The CIA estimates that Pyongyang has not accounted for one to two nuclear weapons worth of plutonium from the Yongbyon reactor.

The Agreed Framework states that North Korea must fully comply with IAEA safeguards when "a significant portion of the LWR project is completed, but before delivery of key nuclear components." The United States, however, had been demanding that North Korea begin cooperation with the IAEA as soon as possible, because the agency needs approximately three to four years to complete inspections. There had been concerns that waiting to start inspections until a significant portion of the project is completed would jeopardize the Agreed Framework's ultimate success, because it would further delay completion of the reactors. North Korea will no longer be required to comply with IAEA inspections once its withdrawal from the NPT is complete.

* Spent Fuel: The spent fuel from North Korea's 5-megawatt reactor at Yongbyon is to be put into containers as soon as possible (a process called "canning") and removed from the country when nuclear components for the first light-water reactor begin to arrive after North Korea has come into full compliance with IAEA safeguards.

The canning process, conducted with U.S. financing, began April 27, 1996 and was finished in April 2000. The spent fuel, however, remains in North Korea, and Pyongyang may have reprocessed it into weapons-grade plutonium. The amount of fuel is sufficient for several nuclear weapons, according to the CIA.

* NPT Membership: The Agreed Framework requires that North Korea remain a party to the nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty.

North Korea announced January 10, 2003 that it was withdrawing from the treaty, effective January 11. Although Article X of the NPT requires that a country give three months' notice in advance of withdrawing, North Korea argues that it has satisfied this requirement because it originally announced its decision to withdraw March 12, 1993 and suspended the decision one day before it was to become legally binding. Whether North Korea remains an NPT state-party is ambiguous.
U.S. Obligations

* Establish and Organize KEDO: This includes the securing of diplomatic and legal rights and guarantees necessary to implement the light-water reactor project.

KEDO was established on March 9, 1995, and membership now includes 12 states and the European Union, which provide electrical-power supplies and financial assistance to help KEDO implement the Agreed Framework.

* Implement the Light-Water Reactor Project: The United States is to facilitate the construction of two 1,000-megawatt light-water nuclear power reactors.

KEDO delegated responsibility to Japan and South Korea to finance and supply North Korea with two light-water reactors. After several years of site preparation, ground was broken in August 2001 in Kumho, North Korea. KEDO poured the concrete for the first reactor in August 2002, but suspended the project on December 1, 2003.

* Provide Heavy-Fuel Oil Shipments: To compensate for the electricity-generating capacity that Pyongyang gave up by freezing its nuclear reactors, KEDO will supply North Korea with 500,000 metric tons of heavy-fuel oil annually until the light-water reactor project is completed.

KEDO suspended the shipments in November 2002. The United States had provided the largest financial contribution for these shipments.

[Warren Stupidity]

131. Here I'll help you out.

http://www.isis-online.org/publications/dprk/book/af.html

That is the agreed on framework, minus secret parts unpublished. It simply does not forbid North Korea building uranium reactors allowed under the NPT, which is what they did AFTER we failed to keep up our end of the agreements.

Don't let the facts get in the way though.

[Pavulon]

132. Why are you shilling for the norcoms, read and weep

http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/agreedframework.asp

[Warren Stupidity]

135. Oh, so not agreeing to your nonsense

is 'shilling for the norcoms' whatever a 'norcom' is. North Korea did not pull the plug on the agreement, we did. Read your own link. By an odd coincidence, the Bush administration wanted to scrap the agreement as they knew better how to deal with those 'norcoms'. They proceeded to find an excuse to do so and the result is that North Korea now has nuclear weapons, which it did not have while the agreement was in place. The bomb material came from the shut down and under inspection plutonium plants that were reopened as a direct consequence of the Bush adminstration's abolition of framework, not by any alleged cheating by North Korea.

[Pavulon]

136. That is your interpretation

The un would not sanction if everything was on the up and up. Stop trying to polish a turd.

The North Korean Communists NORCOM agreed to the list I posted and broke it before bush was in office.

Not that it matters. They lied and cheated. It is not Clinton's fault, not trying to blame him. Bush should have done more but they did have talks which the norks blew off.

The bomb came from a Pakistani who should be underground and some north korean guys.

Interesting if kahn fucked them over and sold them a bad design. fizzle?

[Cleita]

123. Thanks for a better statement than mine.

Did they put out a memo? I had the same argument with my pharmacist this afternoon. He said I had an interesting spin. I said this wasn't spin, just the truth. Bush picked a fight with this rather dangerous world leader. That's a fact.

[Pavulon]

125. Ok

we were prepared to go to war in 95-96 with n korea. N korea is an aggressor state. kim is not a world leader. He is a first class fuck up.

The fact is that a nuclear armed north korea puts north korea in more danger.

There is no spin on this. If they launch a missile towards the us or japan they will start a nuclear war. you understand that? We are treaty bound to respond. that means bad things happen.

Any more bullshit like what happened on with the space shuttle and no notice firings of icbm's towards Hawaii will cause a nuclear launch on our part.

China has increased troop strength on its southern borders. It has no interest in being nuked, they know kim is nuts.

NK has been fucked up before 2000 and will still be fucked up after 2008.

[Rex]

102. Humans just can't help but want the best weapon and shield.

It is how they use it that fucks us all up in the end. It is simple, as long as we have political boundaries the need for a military will exist. All these sanctions and such, hurt the already starving people of NK, not the leader. Just like we did in Iraq for over a decade. Hurt the people while the rich elite stand unaffected. Anyone who believes this action will cause regime change is stupid.

[Ediacara]

137. Hypothetically, the US and France are democratic republics with

multiple safeguards in place against accidental or heat-of-the-moment nuclear launches. So are the UK, Russia, Israel, and India. Even Pakistan and China have safeguards against one a dictator launching nukes. North Korea is a nation of starving brainwashed people lead by an absolute lunatic with absolute power. That's why France, the US, and everyone else aren't sanctioned and North Korea is.

[Dorian Gray]

139. You answered your own question:

"Not that I think Kim Jong Il isn't a narcissistic wack job."

That is why.

It's also been agreed upon by the United Nations, and they are right to approve whatever means necessary to rid NK or nuclear weaponry. It's a very dangerous place, and he would sell his technology in a second to terrorist sponsoring states.

[maddezmom]

143. locking

This has turned into a flamefest.