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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 05:23 PM
Original message
American Prison Camps Are On The Way
Edited on Sat Oct-14-06 05:52 PM by RestoreGore
Make sure to read the comments as well.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15290.htm

American Prison Camps Are on the Way

Kellogg Brown & Root, a Halliburton subsidiary, is constructing a huge facility at an undisclosed location to hold tens of thousands of Bush's "unlawful enemy combatants." Americans are certain to be among them.

By Marjorie Cohn

10/13/06 "AlterNet" -- -- The Military Commissions Act of 2006 governing the treatment of detainees is the culmination of relentless fear-mongering by the Bush administration since the September 11 terrorist attacks. Because the bill was adopted with lightning speed, barely anyone noticed that it empowers Bush to declare not just aliens, but also U.S. citizens, "unlawful enemy combatants." Bush & Co. has portrayed the bill as a tough way to deal with aliens to protect us against terrorism. Frightened they might lose their majority in Congress in the November elections, the Republicans rammed the bill through Congress with little substantive debate.

Anyone who donates money to a charity that turns up on Bush's list of "terrorist" organizations, or who speaks out against the government's policies could be declared an "unlawful enemy combatant" and imprisoned indefinitely. That includes American citizens. The bill also strips habeas corpus rights from detained aliens who have been declared enemy combatants. Congress has the constitutional power to suspend habeas corpus only in times of rebellion or invasion. The habeas-stripping provision in the new bill is unconstitutional and the Supreme Court will likely say so when the issue comes before it.

skip

In 1944, the Supreme Court upheld the legality of the internment of Japanese and Japanese-American citizens in Korematsu v. United States. Justice Robert Jackson warned in his dissent that the ruling would "lie about like a loaded weapon ready for the hand of any authority that can bring forward a plausible claim of an urgent need." That day has come with the Military Commissions Act of 2006. It provides the basis for the President to round-up both aliens and U.S. citizens he determines have given material support to terrorists. Kellogg Brown & Root, a subsidiary of Cheney's Halliburton, is constructing a huge facility at an undisclosed location to hold tens of thousands of undesirables.

In his 1928 dissent in Olmstead v. United States, Justice Louis Brandeis cautioned, "The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." Seventy-three years later, former White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, speaking for a zealous President, warned Americans "they need to watch what they say, watch what they do." We can expect Bush to continue to exploit 9/11 to strip us of more of our liberties. Our constitutional right to dissent is in serious jeopardy. Benjamin Franklin's prescient warning should give us pause: "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security."

Also see:

http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=eed74d9d44c30493706fe03f4c9b3a77

And here:

http://www.halliburton.com/default/main/halliburton/eng/news/source_files/news.jsp?newsurl=/default/main/halliburton/eng/news/source_files/press_release/2006/kbrnws_012406.html

What sort of "natural disaster" warrants this?
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sce56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. UhOh DU will lose it's donor base we will all be declared Enemy Combatants
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. Undisclosed Location? Smacks of credibility problems
On the day they tell me where the thing is being built I will start paying lots of attention. Until then? Not so much.
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Tulum_Moon Donating Member (556 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. It will be too late by then.
They will already be built and ready to stock it with ordinary people like us. This is coming.:scared:
As sure as I am sitting here.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. How can we be paranoid if some of us insist on thinking critically and
tells the rest of us the obvious?
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. This might convince you:
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. None of that information is terribly credible.
For one thing, the footage of the "camp" in Indiana is actually of an Amtrak repair facility. It's been debunked here many times. It's a case of selective documentary and the narrator employing unsupported sinister implications.

Second, do you really think that the detention camps used in the 40s still exist? About an hour southwest of my home, there's a place that used to be a camp that housed Italian POWs during World War II. It's now a forest.

As for the supposed Halliburton camps, I've never seen any evidence that they so much as picked a site to build such a thing, or did anything about those contracts other than pocket the cash.
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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Are these executive orders credible?
Edited on Sat Oct-14-06 06:44 PM by RestoreGore
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/FEMA-Concentration-Camps3sep04.htm

And note, in the other link I posted mentioning the one man still in a detention center since 9.11, it is Florence Detention Center in Arizona he is being held at which is mentioned in this link as well. I don't want to believe this is true in my country either, but again, the bill Bush will be signyng this coming Tuesday virtually gives him carte blance to begin filling these centers up with those he deems "enemy copmbatants." Does it have to actually happen and become too late before people make the same mistake here that they made in Germany in the thirties and forties by being silent?
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. There doesn't seem to be more than talk about
Edited on Sat Oct-14-06 06:56 PM by babylonsister
Halliburton centers other than contracts awarded, but there apparently are existing centers. You can check them out by state at the link.

http://www.bordc.org/threats/detention.php#AZ

Listed below is the contact information for known detention centers in Arizona, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Louisiana, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Puerto Rico, Texas and Washington.

AZ, CA, CO, CT, FL, LA, MA, NJ, NY, PR, TX, WA

As for the footage of the camp in Indiana, I had never read it had been debunked though I don't doubt you.

Edit to add: lala rawraw has a relative in a 'camp' in FL. Have you read her updates?
Here's her last one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2369112
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ChazII Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. No detention center by me
But I do live about 10 minutes from where German POW's were kept.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Do you live near Eloy or Florence? I don't know honestly; that's
what this article is indicating, with info that looks valid.:shrug:
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ChazII Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. POW camp was
in Phoenix.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. Why this doesn't convince me ...
Edited on Sat Oct-14-06 09:01 PM by RoyGBiv
First off, vigilance is always a good thing. I have no doubt people exist in positions of power who would like nothing better than to execute a plan that would round up "enemies of the state" and make them disappear forever, or at the very least until they've been "reeducated." I don't totally discount what's being warned here. I do, however, find much of the current evidence involving actual locations to be, as the previous respondent said, lacking credibility.

The reason is singular. The first "camp" on the list is a trumped up non-story that *no one* who uses it as evidence has bothered, in the least, to verify. That camp is "Falls Creek."

I know something about this "camp" because people in my family visit there yearly as administrators for their own church when they use cabins at the place for their youth groups. I went there a couple times a child, which isn't entirely relevant in this context, but I note this information to indicate I'm personally familiar with the area, which will be relevant in a moment. The source for the Falls Creek location being used as a "concentration" camp in the pejorative, Holocaust-invoking sense comes from one family, more precisely one person who apparently spoke for the family, dialog included. Yes, you can find multiple links to the same information. It's all from one person. It's all from one incident. And if you read through the account carefully, the reasons for the diatribe against the Falls Creek "camp" become more clear, at least to me, based on my experience with it and the people who call the camp their own.

The following section is illustrative


He then precedes to tell us that some churches had already inquired into whether they could send a van or bus on Sundays to pick up any occupants of their cabins who might be interested in attending church. FEMA will not allow this. The occupants of the camp cannot leave the camp for any reason. If they leave the camp they may never return. They will be issued FEMA identification cards and "a sum of money" and they will remain within the camp for the next 5 months.

My son looks at me and mumbles "Welcome to Krakow."

My mother then asked if the churches would be allowed to come to their cabin and conduct services if the occupants wanted to attend. The response was "No ma'am. You don't understand. Your church no longer owns this building. This building is now owned by FEMA and the Oklahoma Highway Patrol. They have it for the next 5 months." This scares my mother who asks "Do you mean they have leased it?" The man replies, "Yes, ma'am...lock, stock and barrel. They have taken over everything that pertains to this facility for the next 5 months."


If you read through the inflammatory rhetoric and words placed in other people's mouths, what you have here is a woman irritated that residents won't be allowed to leave to visit area churches. To make matters worse, in her view, those churches can't even send people to the cabins to indoctrinate the essentially captive residents with her own version of Protestantism.

Falls Creek is a church camp, a Baptist church camp, more precisely a Southern Baptist church camp. The people who use it or who are associated with it feel a sense of entitlement about it. If you're there, you're there to receive The Word, and The Word comes from Baptist ministers. The notion that the locale could be used for any purpose that did not include religious indoctrination was (and is) a form of heresy to some people. And I might add here that this has come up before in other contexts. Usage of Falls Creek has regularly been limited to those people or groups who agree to allowing the Baptist Church to use their presence as an opportunity to spread The Word.

The individual who made this report also complains a lot about things that quite frankly made a lot of sense in the context of the circumstances. She wanted to deliver food and clothes. That, in and of itself, is a wonderful thing. But what she was in the process of doing was delivering food and clothing to specific cabins, "her" cabins, and the officials present quickly and correctly nixed that idea entirely. She even allowed them to offer a bit of truth about it through her parsing of their words, although of course she uses those words to damn them rather than point out the logic because apparently she couldn't see the logic herself. In the situation that would have been present had Katrina evacuees been taken to Falls Creek, giving one cabin steaks and bottled water while another lives off SPAM and the local, sulfurous water is idiotic. So, they told her "no," you can't pick and choose who you give stuff to.

And the bit about the residents not being allowed to leave? That too made sense under the circumstances. The residents would have been allowed to leave, but they weren't going to be allowed to come and go on a regular basis. The area is remote. There's actual dangerous wildlife in the nearby area. The nearest towns are small and would have been completely unable to support a sudden influx of people with no means of support. Campers who go there with their churches in the summer are subject to the same restrictions. They can't leave camp, and they can't go the nearest towns because the administrators can't ensure their safety once they are outside the camp itself. (This, btw, is one of the reasons Falls Creek didn't end up being used.)

I'll ask one simple question. If this person's conclusions about the camp were true, why on earth was she allowed access for an entire day, and why oh why did they let her take so many pictures?

In short, this individual's account of a "concentration camp" was mostly, imo, about her own ego. She got mad because she wasn't allowed to control the situation. She probably got snotty with officials and police, which in turn caused them to get snotty with her. And, in her anger and after being involved in an atmosphere of mutual snottiness, she went off on a rant.

What this has to do with the rest of the evidence being used is really not much, and I'll grant that. But the point, for me, is that this is the one so-called camp about which I do know quite a bit whereas I know nothing of the others. What's the real story of those other camps? The hysteria surrounding Falls Creek and the fact that so many accepted the story of one, basically unknown individual so uncritically makes me question the lot.

I do hope you accept this commentary in the spirit intended. I'm not here to be a "debunker," just a dose of reality regarding one story that seems to have achieved the status of something like an urban legend. The camps may very well being going up all around us. My point, though, is that if they are, I very much doubt we're going to be able to dig up such clear evidence of it.
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Sound advice n/t
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. How about paying attention
to the black hole camps, Gitmo and Camp Iguana, rendition flights, people rounded up and disappeared right after 9/11, eliminating habeas corpus, etc. Did you think those things were "credible"?
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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
8. It wouldn't be hard to disappear people...
Look what happened after 9.11, and one man ( or at least, one man we KNOW of) is still in a detention center in Arizona...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061014/ap_on_re_us/detained_indefinitely
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. I share concerns about any Halliburton contract, and the limits
the Bush Administration is trying to clamp on Habeas Corpus but this purely editorial comment is a little OTT, imo:

"Kellogg Brown & Root, a Halliburton subsidiary, is constructing a huge facility at an undisclosed location to hold tens of thousands of Bush's "unlawful enemy combatants." Americans are certain to be among them. "

("undisclosed location": cited without any source; "tens of thousands": again, cited with no source)

and this comment is just plain wrong:

"In 1798, the Federalist-led Congress, capitalizing on the fear of war, passed the four Alien and Sedition Acts to stifle dissent against the Federalist Party's political agenda. The Naturalization Act extended the time necessary for immigrants to reside in the U.S. because most immigrants sympathized with the Republicans."

(There was no Republican Party in 1798.)

My personal speculations are that the limits to Habeas Corpus will be found unconstitutional and, hopefully, struck down. And a Democratic Congress will impose oversight, review and legal limits to the slew of Halliburton contracts, both domestically and overseas.

(Memo to Marjorie Cohn - the sky is not falling. Either label this as personal speculation/opinion or cite some sources and check your facts.)

Thanks.



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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Democrats also voted to suspend Habeus Corpus
Edited on Sat Oct-14-06 06:59 PM by RestoreGore
There were Democrats who voted with Republicans to suspend habeus corpus, and they have allowed Bush to gain this power over the last six years. Now Nancy Pelosi even claims they will not seek articles of impeachment against Bush or anyone else should they "win" the House. Sorry, but when it comes to this, I don't trust any of them.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Yep,
Some of them didn't get the Lamont primary win message. Until our rights are restored and the constitution is functionally running with its guarantees and checks and balances, everyone needs to stay vigilant and blindly trust no one on the basis of a label.
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. The Specter amendment to the bill, to *provide* Habeas Corpus rights
Edited on Sat Oct-14-06 07:11 PM by pinto
to detainees was defeated, 48-51, with only one Dem voting against it. Other Dem amendments to the bill were defeated, along party lines.

The final bill was approved, 65-34, and was supported by 12 Democrats.

That's hardly cause to write off the whole Democratic Senate delegation, especially in the event we retake the Congress, imo.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/28/AR2006092800824.html

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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. That depends on what they do should they "retake" Congress
They lost my respect on December 13 2000. I'm still waiting to see it restored, and it is their reponsibility to do that regarding the American people they let down. I did my duty as a citizen. I then have every right to dismiss them for looking in the face of Fascism and turning the other cheek. And even ONE vote for this is too many.
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. OK. Your opinion is clear. And your right to walk away is unquestionable.
Appreciate your comments. Thanks.
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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
14. Another article
Edited on Sat Oct-14-06 06:54 PM by RestoreGore
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/index.php?id=5770

Ms. Zuieback said the KBR contract was not intended for that.

"It's not part of any day-to-day enforcement," she said.

She added that she could not provide additional information about the company's statement that the contract was also meant to support the rapid development of new programs.

This is what we need to question.

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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. A pertinent comment from Rep. Waxman from this article:
Edited on Sat Oct-14-06 07:57 PM by pinto
Representative Henry A. Waxman, Democrat of California, who has monitored the company, called the contract worrisome.

"With Halliburton's ever expanding track record of overcharging, it's hard to believe that the administration has decided to entrust Halliburton with even more taxpayer dollars," Mr. Waxman said. "With each new contract, the need for real oversight grows."

I agree with him. And I agree with Congressional oversight as to the purpose of any of these projects.

I guess my point here is that unsupported allegations of secret detention centers meant for a mass round-up of American citizens may undermine our call for questioning, review, and effective oversight.

(on edit) Edited for clarity and conciseness. Thanks.
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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. They aren't unsupported
Edited on Sun Oct-15-06 10:05 AM by RestoreGore
It is on Halliburton's website. These sites are not being built NOW, they are for "new programs" which wasn't even explained. Will Mr. Waxman or anyone then ask what that means, and why hasn't someone done so already in Congress? Have they? Has the media? This was announced LAST January. I'm sure if the time ever comes they can be built quite fast to accomodate any new residents. BTW, do you even know where all of the people displaced from Hurricane Katrina are? How easy would it have been to just move them into these "camps" under the guise of them needing a place to live? Would you have questioned it?

Bush is also signing a bill this Tuesday that will give him the power to have those camps built by some "emergency" happening and then declaring martial law. If that doesn't make you feel in the least uncomfortable, I don't know what will. You think he wouldn't do it especially if the Republicans see all they have built crumbling around them? You think they are just going to give up all they have accomplished in one election?

At this point the only way I see that they won't at least try it to some degree is if they can be assured that those coming into Congress will continue what they started on some level (or not hold them accountable which seems to be in the bag already), or if the Democrats lose big. I find it amazing that even after all these people have done to this point that so many still live in denial as to their real agenda.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
23. People have been rounded up without trial or counsel
in the US. Whether anyone here wants to believe in detainment camps or not, there have been secret detainments in this country without due process. That is a FACT. Those of you not convinced about KBR building a camp or reports of other "secret" camps is irrelevant since people are being imprisoned without trial with what we've got.
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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Very Good Point
Which again leads to the question: Where is the outrage? And if people aren't outraged by this with what we have got, it is then safe to assume they wouldn't be outraged if they take that next step.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. yep, my family is living proof of that
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boobooday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
26. Bush is a natural disaster
That is, he is a biological organism (although more akin to a parasite than to any member of the mammalian family).

Thus, he is the disaster that will necessitate the rounding up of anyone who retains vague memories of something called the "Bill of Rights."

Seriously, this story has to get more widespread dissemination!
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
27. it's probably not a new location but upgrading of an unused location

because I've seen video of this. the upgrading of bldgs., added fences with wire placed to keep people in, and it's by railroad tracks, etc.. can't remember what site the video was on.

maybe this is why no one can find the huge, new, compound.
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