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Kerry won. Bush lost. DNC failed to secure votes. RNC stole 5million votes

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:03 PM
Original message
Kerry won. Bush lost. DNC failed to secure votes. RNC stole 5million votes
Edited on Sun Oct-15-06 05:04 PM by blm
Elections need securing for the two and four years between elections. There is no way to do it day of or day after.

Rigged machines leave no trace.

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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. K&R/nt
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. with you blm.... also with you on this issue n/t
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. Fix the roof before you worry about the furniture and the rugs...
Common sense.
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
5. Neither side can expose election fraud
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. "We have armies of lawyers...THIS TIME all the votes will be counted...
geez, after all the bluster leading to election day, I thought they had it covered...It now appears they just wanted to put Gore down.
I believe after the 2000 elections it was the democrats DUTY to pass just one piece of legislation : one that makes stealing impossible (less possible?). They didn't then, nor since 2004.
Feingold even said: "First we win, then we fix this" which is a bit...illogical?
I don't see how this was the DNC's fault.
I'd like to know, whose fault will be this November?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. It IS a shame Kerry believed it when McAuliffe told him he was securing
Edited on Sun Oct-15-06 05:29 PM by blm
the vote process and countering the RNC tactics of vote suppression, purged voter rolls, and rigged machines.

I wonder if the other Dem candidates would have been in the same position and trusted the DNC's claim they were doing their job and countering election fraud.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. they had armies of lawyers in Fl and Ohio in 2004...what they need is
Edited on Sun Oct-15-06 05:42 PM by flyarm
computer geeks and experts ..and lawyers!

fly
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Actually, the lawyers headed for OH were recalled from the tarmac
Edited on Sun Oct-15-06 05:50 PM by robbedvoter
By Kerry. Insert whatever excuse for Kerry here you like...
Sorry, but he was the candidate, the supposed leader that got our votes. As such, he is responsible for whatever failure to uncover the theft was up to him. Not DNC, Not Carville, not McAuliffe, not Clinton. Kerry. The leader.
Of course, the thieves remain responsible for the actual theft crime - just so this remains clear.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
42. Agreed - this was a tag-team effort.
The crime was perpetrated by the GOP criminals, some Dem consultants (reads operatives) helped muddy the waters, but the ultimate decision of flight versus fight was up to Kerry. Blaming may assuage sour grapes but it doesn't erase the facts of causation.

Election fraud is the real culprit and I do agree that it will be some undertaking to undo the damage and correct the process. That should be #1 on the Dems' list of things to do when they take back Congress.
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bobbie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #42
83. Yes, this was Kerry's chance to show what he's made of
I hope it was his one and only chance. I saw more than enough.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #83
91. So scratch every Dem off the list who can only get 60 - 65 million votes.
Seems to me people don't understand that the votes were stolen between 2001 and Nov 2004 - and Terry McAuliffe and Donna Brazille were in charge of securng the votes.

That wasn't Kerry's call - that was Bill Clinton and his team who them in those places of power over OUR votes.
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bobbie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #91
115. Oh believe me, he's scratched off
He's more than earned my mistrust.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #115
118. Well, if the person who has exposed more govt corruption than any lawmaker
in modern history, and earned 60-65 million votes in the last election is mistrusted, who CAN you trust?

You have totally misplaced blame. YOU and KERRY should both have complete mistrust of Terry McAuliffe and Donna Brazille and the office of Voter Integrity and James Carville - They EARNED the mistrust - Kerry is being blamed because they spun him into the target, and people are willing to be duped into blaming him.


Kerry WON his every matchup a candidate needs to win - the DNC let the RNC STEAL that win through their four years of INACTION when they were SUPPOSED to be securing the election process.

They may have ddone it deliberately, and people like YOU will be rewarding them for the deliberate inaction by turning on the only person who DID their job.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #17
58. well we had lawyers all over the ground in Fla for early vote and for
the general..they were from all over the country..i dealt with NY lawyers and Illinois lawyers , Fla Lawyers..Georgia lawyers.., and some from places i never asked..as a poll watcher.. i dealt with lawyers daily and some days numerous times during the day!

There were teams and teams of lawyers set up in Fla by Kerry in my state and my county in Fla.

fly
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
30. Yeah, I thought they had armies of lawyers in 2004. n/t
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Dem party's election legal team told Kerry there was no legal case to make
and it was the same legal team that told Gore he did.

So if Gore was given the right legal advisement, was Kerry NOT given the right legal advisement from virtually the same team?
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maryallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #36
50. Well, Kerry should have fired these piss-poor lawyers and ....
Edited on Sun Oct-15-06 09:19 PM by maryallen
gotten a whole new set.

If we, sitting at home, knew the high probability that the 2004 election would be stolen, Kerry should have known, too.

He knew about the lines of voters who waited HOURS in the RAIN to vote; about the sick and elderly who also stood in line to vote. He knew about the purging of the voting rolls by Blackwell, et al; and he damn sure knew about the pitfalls of computerized voting machines.

Hell, he could have contested the election by shouting bloody murder about the civil rights violations that occurred that day. But he didn't. He sat back and let John Conyers carry the water and conduct the hearing he should have DEMANDED, but didn't.

No, John Kerry needs to go home and let a real fighter emerge. He had his chance and he blew it.
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Peggy Day Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #50
65. I agree nt
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #50
77. That's not the reality - that's a STORYLINE. Kerry left election process
Edited on Mon Oct-16-06 01:53 PM by blm
to the Dem party experts. You don't just fire them and take on new ones the day of the election when the DNC just proved they never secured the election process.

It sure SOUNDS cool to rant like that - but just name one candidate who would have tried to put up an entirely new team of election experts over the team the Dem party had - the same ones who advised Gore he had a case to continue told Kerry there was no legal case to make to continue.

You couldn't find a candidate who took machine fraud seriously enough to make it an issue in 2004. They DID NOT KNOW as much as you think. Even Dean saw a demonstration and didn't take it seriously to lead a battle over it the summer before the elecion, and he didn't warn Kerry about it, and the two became pretty close during the general.

And RFKs article is clear that there was no access to legal evidence to make a case. Machines need securing BEFORE an election - after is too late with rigged machines that leave no trace.

I suppose you're mad that Terry McAuliffe didn't show up to debate and beat Bush, since you're mad Kerry didn't do Terry's FOUR YEAR job for him.
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we can do it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
51. That's what they were recruiting at our KE Headquarters the week before
the election, they came to the meeting the saturday before, when they had the election protection people getting info.
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jarnocan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
44. WE do not have verifiable, auditable elections as the rule
of law in this country. Even the last less than adequate bill, did not go anywhere. It is a tragedy.
Even if many dems do win, We need to keep making this a high priority. We also have to stay informed on those that do fall victim to fraud, and fight it.

"11/7/06 Massive Sit In at the White House Nov. 7th and 8th" http://velvetrevolution.us/
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #6
70. Tell me how the Democrats could do this
In America we have majority rule, and at this time the majority is all Publican.

An election repair bill, whose net effect would be the reduction in the numbers of corrupt Publicans currently holding office, would have to pass through a House of Representatives controlled by corrupt Publicans and a Senate controlled by corrupt Publicans before it could be signed by George Bush, the most corrupt Publican of them all.

Once we flush the Publicans in the House and the Senate, we can at least get a bill onto Bush's desk, where he will veto it.

Feingold is absolutely correct, as much as we dislike admitting it. Those people on the other side of the aisle, the Publicans running this country, have no need and less interest in passing a bill that works against their own self-interest.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
7. Isn't there an entire forum devoted to this nonsense?
I think that when we take back the House in November some people with a vested interest in perennial stolen elections will be a little upset.

However I'm sure another conspiracy theory will be conjured up to explain this.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. So votes WEREN'T suppressed, voter rolls WEREN'T purged
and the machines operated with only a glitch or two.

OK.

Then why did even Bill Clinton say he now believes Kerry won Ohio?
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. It's only nonsense to people who cannot understand the details
Edited on Sun Oct-15-06 05:38 PM by Rex
of the crime. It's okay, not everyone can understand election fraud. Some people are too dense.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
28. You know
you might want to do a little research before you diss peoples painstaking, difficult work as a conspiracy theory.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
47. obviously you haven't looked at the facts
it's not just the exit polls and it's not just conspiracy theorists. it's anyone who looks at the facts.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
55. Hmmm. I think I'll trust the GAO, John Conyers, Thom Hartmann,
Edited on Sun Oct-15-06 11:23 PM by sfexpat2000
Mark Crispin Miller, Bob Fitrakis, Steve Freeman, MainstreetMoms, VoteTrustUsa, Andy, the hardwokring folks in the ER and my own lying eyes on this one.

:shrug:
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #7
63. start reading now
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
73. conspiracy theory would be...
They allowed us to win midterm so that we can't complain that much when they steal it again in '08. And frankly, that is not that farfetched, IMO. It's called choosing your battles carefully.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
89. Indeed.
It'll be "They COULDN'T steal this one because people would be SUSPICIOUS." Despite whatever shenanigans may have occured in Ohio in 2004, this gibber about "5,000,000 votes stolen" is quite entertaining.
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
9. John Kerry: "your vote will get counted this time"
duh!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Terry McAuliffe to Kerry: We're working to secure election process - you
can be sure of that and let the people know we are on top of it and have been for four years.

Kerry shouldn't have believed him.

ANY Candidate would have been stuck with Terry McAuliffe's party infrastructure.

You are welcome to name me the one who would have had a different party infrastructure in place when he became the nominee in summer of 2004.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. we here the same from the naysayers, but never do the refute
you when you challenge them with fact. though if you put this op up in a week, the same people will come on, and say the same thing.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
11. Yeah, that's why Kerry's sitting in the WH & the vote riggers are in jail
If you said the election might have been stolen, it would sound more credible.

I won't say the election wasn't stolen, but I'm just as inclined to believe that Kerry MIGHT have lost fair and square after witnessing that awful campaign. In a campaign where he should've been clobbering the worst incumbent president ever with double digit leads, all Kerry could do was make it close all the way through. Heck, half the time he was behind in the polls.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Kerry beat the CRAP out of Bush in every man to man matchup they had.
Edited on Sun Oct-15-06 05:37 PM by blm
Funny - it was only the part that DNC controlled where the RNC kicked the crap out of them. Securing the election process.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. If anything, the RNC probably stole the Dem primary from Dean
because they knew that Dean would run a much better campaign and fight back.

Yup, maybe that's it. Must be that the Republican election thieves made sure Kerry was the Democratic candidate because they knew he'd be easy.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. DNC screwed EVERY Dem voter and EVERY candidate long before the primary
because the elections get secured BETWEEN elections.

DNC didn't do their job in 2002 or 2004.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. but Kerry was the perfect campaigner, eh. It's everyone's fault but his.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. He won 60-65 million votes. He won his matchups with Bush DECISIVELY.
What more is a candidate to do?

No campaign is perfect and Dem campaigns are already at a deficit with a GOP controlled media.

The weakest part of Kerry's campaign was when he trusted McAuliffe was doing his job - on that, Kerry screwed up.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Considering who he was running against he should've won 165 million votes!
Edited on Sun Oct-15-06 06:24 PM by mtnsnake
Well maybe not that much, but my gawd, he was running against a moron and still lagged behind just about the entire campaign.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. The most PROTECTED moron in history with Clinton PUBLICALLY supporting him
Edited on Sun Oct-15-06 06:34 PM by blm
throughout his term on most of his policies.

Clinton should have beaten Bush1 by 20% with all the bad headlines IranContra, BCCI and Iraqgate were providing. Bush2 crimes were being protected by the media, by a Congress that wouldn't investigate, and by the heroic myth built around 9-11.

Try turning it around, and put Bush1 as the protected president and put Bush2 as the investigated and exposed one - then judge.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. So now it's Clinton's fault Kerry lost? I thought it was voter fraud
I'll bet it was Clinton who secretly ran Kerry's campaign and gave him all that horrible advice.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. The most PROTECTED MORON IN HISTORY who even USED the last Dem pres
to protect him when he publically and VOCALLY came out supporting the moron's policy decisions.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. You already said that
:)
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #40
61. These people love to divide, don't they? And probably hope to
Edited on Mon Oct-16-06 08:07 AM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
rule. In your dreams! Kerry's the giant on this stage, not a Republican't, and there's nowt you can say can change it.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I've actually seen that sentiment expressed here
in all seriousness.

I had to do a double-take for sarcasm when I read it.
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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
15. Look, with all due respect. What is the point of this?
As you've stated it here, you offer nothing but gloom. It's too late to do much about this before the next election. I swear, it's like some folks around here want to lose or something.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. No = Many of us want Dean to do well because we know he's been doing
the work that was long overdue.

We just don't want people to think that the elections are won or lost on election day - it's a two and four year process. Dean is working like crazy to fix 10 years worth of neglect.

People need to realize that when they lash out at Kerry as they have been today.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
64. You haven't figured it out yet?
blm is trying to resuscitate Kerry as for another run for President, by spreading memes that it was someone else's fault Kerry lost and has nothing to do with the candidate. blm has primarily focused the blame on Bill Clinton or anyone connected to Bill Clinton.



:puffpiece:
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #64
80. Whatever the reason, Kerry is a good man
great Democrat, and worthy of the support.
He was not a prefect candidate, but he did very well, and but for the 11th hour bin Laden tape, John Kerry would be President now.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. It doesn't justify
these types of attacks on other Democrats. Attacks that are unsupported by any evidence beyond a distorted partisan view of history. When I want that kind of garbage I turn on Fox news.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
22. Yep. - n/t
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
26. Kerry...
...when losing once is not enough.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
27. Pukes can't win without cheating.
Tom DeLay is under indictment for using money to bribe lawmakers to gerrymander Texas into a GOP stronghold.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #27
38. And they're very, very good at it.
:puke:
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
32. Yep, we were completely blindsided by election fraud in 2004.
Who would have seen it coming? Sure there was 2000, a biggie, and then 2002. Sure the Republicans all but said they were going to steal the election, but we know that Republicans are all liars. Then when it happens again we will again be dumbfounded that it happened again. If somebody steals my wallet, then I strongly suspect they will steal it again and they do, and then I think they will steal it again and they succeed again, then it starts to reach the point where I appear to be helpless about somebody stealing my wallet even if I know it is coming. None of this happened in a closet. The Republicans took control of local and state offices that would aid in controlling elections by one means or another. Democrats need to do the same in taking control of the same offices to guarantee fair elections.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. ...appear to be helpless
Damn, that's about it... we do appear to be helpless to stop them. Its why so many of us keep telling everyone they'll they do it again.... maybe this time we will be ready....
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
33. Thats right. What does Howard Dean say about this issue?
I trust that man and would like to know what his stance on this is.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Dean has been working his butt off rebuilding the infrastructure that was
Edited on Sun Oct-15-06 06:48 PM by blm
collapsed in many crucial states ince 1997.

His work will make a difference. I hope there aren't other forces working to undermine him.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. I have a feeling there are forces
working to "undermine" him in the form of a carville, rahm, from, reed, moosecrap, ect, ect, ect.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. DING! DING! DING!
The Foley scandal is making it almost impossible to lose, but, I predict they will go to Plan B if Dems win both houses preventing them from tearing Dean down They'll try to coopt Dean as part of THEIR parade. I think Dean has taken a whiff of what they're about and will watch his back.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #41
71. Just for my own sake, could you go into detail about what you mean?
"coopt Dean as part of THEIR parade". Why does he need to "watch his back"? Just curious is all. I feel I may have missed something.

Thanks
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. Scuttlebutt is some established Dem forces were planning a takedown of
Dean as DNC chair, if the Dem party didn't win congress, and they planned to blame his leadership style. Then put their own guy in to deal with the 2008 cycle.

But Foley scandal has made it less likely for that to happen.

Charles Pierce wrote a short missive about this very thing last week. The post is probably archived by now, but it shouldn't be hard to find.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. Thanks.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
35. Kerry seems so happy, and laughs easily. I don't hear a
speach,but conversation between Kerry,and audience members.
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #35
49. What scares me is Bush and Rove seeming so happy, like they know
Edited on Sun Oct-15-06 09:09 PM by tblue
they're in good shape for the election. I hope it blows up :nuke:in their face.
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oc2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
46. Where is the PROOF? oh there is none...tin foil conspiracy.

umm.. right.. no proof..

you must be wearing that tin foil hat too tight today.
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Are you a troll?
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. Many people telling the truth are accused of such.
:shrug:
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #54
59. You brought up tin foil hats.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #54
67. don't you love it when long time DUers are called trolls by
someon with less than 300 posts and a disabled profile?
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VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #46
76. Please read this piece by Robert Kennedy, Jr.: HARDLY a tinfoil-hat type.
It's from Rolling Stone, and it address some serious voting issues in Ohio in 2004.

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen
Was the 2004 Election Stolen?
Republicans prevented more than 350,000 voters in Ohio from casting ballots or having their votes counted -- enough to have put John Kerry in the White House.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.
<snip>
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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
52. You forgot another short meme. KERRY SURRENDERED.
Which is why he must do several more years' penance and work out in the wilderness before he is even permitted to say the words "Presidential Nominee," let alone be allowed to be one.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #52
60. You forgot- There was NO LEGAL EVIDENCE to continue in court.
There was no choice but to conceded unless a whistleblower stepped forward.

YOU try taking something to court with no evidence in hand to even get through the door.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #52
62. You also forget - votes are stolen during the 4yrs between election days.
Every day for four years votes are suppressed, voter rolls purged, and Republicans figure new ways to rig the vote count via machines and operatives working at the precinct level.

It's the duty of the DNC and its office of Voter Integrity to counter these tactics.

How did they do?
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
53. Somehow, I get the feeling that if Kerry would've lost by 10 million votes
Edited on Sun Oct-15-06 11:18 PM by Balbus
your subject line would read Kerry won. "Bush lost. DNC failed to secure votes. RNC stole 11million votes"

In other words, you're pulling shit out of your ass.
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #53
69. It will be interesting...
If, On November 8th, the Democrats have a resounding victory - what will the "GOP steals elections" memers have to say?

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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. I am assuming you don't feel we have had 2 stolen elections....
What will you say if the dems don't win AGAIN? This is a question. Not a sarcastic attack like you see around here so often.
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #72
78. Read this interesting article on vote tampering
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2844/

In June, Seven Stories Press published the book I co-authored with Steven F. Freeman, Was the 2004 Presidential Election Stolen? Exit Polls, Election Fraud, and the Official Count.

We had spent the previous year and a half examining the exit polls and learning about the problems posed by electronic voting.

I took up this task, devoting evenings and weekends to it, because I thought the subject was vitally important. Yet the months since the book’s publication have been frustrating. No newspaper or magazine, from either the corporate or independent media sectors, has taken the subject seriously enough to review our book.

I had thought that with Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s article “Was the Presidential Election Stolen?,” published last June in Rolling Stone, the topic would become part of a national debate. Yet the only media outlet that has given the subject serious consideration is Salon.com, where Farhad Manjoo slammed Kennedy’s article and its thesis, and then refused to respond when Salon.com published a devastating critique of his argument by my co-author.

Why the silence? After talking to colleagues in the independent press, I have come to the conclusion that the possibility of a stolen election is not given credence for three reasons.

MORE...
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #53
88. Well, you're wrong and
you're using your dirty mouth, too, against another DUer.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #88
119. Amen. Where does that kind of thing come from? I just don't get it.
There is almost no intelligent discussion here at all anymore. I hardly ever even bother to post. And it makes me so sad that it has come to this. It is so childish. More like nasty Republicans than open minded, considerate Democrats. Why are they even here?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. There's still intelligent
discussion..you just have to cherry pick :)
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #120
121. Why, hell! I like cherries!
I'll keep my eye out for some. :think:
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The Brethren Donating Member (853 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
56. they have it backwards
When it has come to election fraud, especially after the 2004 vote, we were told to "prove it was corrupted". That is not the public's responsibility. I'm sure as hell not paid to do it. That is the responsibility of all parties involved in the electoral process at the city, state and national levels to prove to voters that the system is not corrupted; that it is working correctly and is accurate. They can try and make it about political party lines, but it is about accountability, not ones affiliations.

After I voted in 2004, my ballot was scanned and I received in return a little piece of paper that said "I voted in 2004" Big deal. There was no proof what happened to my votes at that point. None. And as of yet I still haven't found any public record of my vote that once it was scanned, that it didn't end up switched to another candidates or simply deleted due to a "malfunction." I essentially voted on faith.

The mainstream press has been slow to zip in addressing this - particularly right after the election when many angry voters, like myself were asking questions about it and when even the possibility of fraud should have been looked at...not months to yrs later. We have a right to vote, to have those votes counted and to expect politicians to frickin do their jobs - which they are paid for - by us.

My attitude has since become to all politicians involved: prove to me our system isn't corrupted, prove to me my vote was and will be counted correctly and you won't be legally held accountable. With the emphasis on "legal"...because I'm fed up with waiting around for politicians to figure out what end is up with this issue. It is very simple: if i vote, i expect it be counted correctly - including mail in ballots. And I expect it to be verified. If not, then I or more individuals involved failed to do their jobs correctly.
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Phrogman Donating Member (940 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
57. Scull and Bonesmen really love elections, its a very entertaining
Edited on Mon Oct-16-06 12:22 AM by Phrogman
time, everyone running around trying to guess at something you already know the outcome to.

Royalty has its privileges I guess.

Whens John and George going to the next reunion? Golly, they'll sure have a lot to laugh and joke about.
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bobbie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #57
87. I think you're right
The election was fixed so that two insiders were supposedly competing. The rich guys Club couldn't lose.

And I don't believe for a second that Kerry legitimately won the Dem primaries. The Club wanted him there, as opposed to outsiders like Clark, Dean, Kucinich.
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Phrogman Donating Member (940 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #87
90. Exactly, we were set up for a fall with an unelectable candidate.
Fuck Kerry, I put my heart and hopes in the guy and he SOLD US OUT.
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bobbie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. The only thing that confuses me is why Ted Kennedy supported him
And continues to support him.

I know Kennedy has an axe over his head...but I still wouldn't expect him to support someone who is not a true old fashioned for-real Democrat.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #92
96. Kennedy has known Kerry for some 30 years now. I would expect
he is more qualified than you are to know who is a real Democrat.
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bobbie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #96
107. Kennedy is also being seriously blackmailed
And has been since the Chappaquiddick "bear trap" the CIA sprung on him, which is discussed in the Nixon white house tapes. Not to mention the fact that his two brothers and nephew were murdered.

So in spite of your no doubt well-meaning assurance, I have to wonder how much Kennedy is being pressured to support Kerry.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. Can you say a little more about this bear trap?
I hadn't heard that, but I've long suspected that Chappaquiddick was a set-up. Dark night, narrow bridge, take away the reflectors at the sharp turn and presto.

As far as supporting Kerry I think it's because they're the only two sane ones in the whole pack, give or take a handful of others.
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bobbie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #108
116. I sure can dailykoff
Like you I've long suspected...so I’ve been reading reading reading. I base my belief that Chappaquidick was a CIA ambush on: context, a quote from the Nixon tapes, logic, and an important fact: war makes rich people richer.

Here’s the context, i.e., motive. Since it’s so long I put the “>” symbol by the Ted Kennedy stuff you asked about:

-1947 Truman forms the CIA to consolidate intelligence gathering/spy work. In 1948 and 49 the CIA’s charter is expanded to include "covert actions and exclude most oversight and accountability.
(Note: In the creation of the CIA, disposed Nazi operational agents were recruited as U.S. secret agents.)

-1947 the cold war with Russia/USSR starts. Communism becomes the bogey man.

-In the 1950s the CIA overthrows foreign governments (e.g., Guatemala, Iran), often assassinating the leader, often to supposedly prevent communism, often helping US business interests/profits. For example…

-1954 The CIA overthrew the elected Guatemalan government of Jacobo Arbenz. They deemed Arbenz a dangerous communist after his government appropriated unused land owned by the United Fruit Company (now Chiquita Banana) in order to redistribute land to poor peasants. United Fruit was paid for their land but they thought it was too little.

CIA Director (and former attorney to Prescott Bush) Allen Dulles had a financial interest in United Fruit. Power “was assumed by Colonel Carlos Castillo Armas, who had at one time received military training at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. Armas gave United Fruit its land back, banned banana workers unions, abolished the tax on interest and dividends to foreign investors, and jailed thousands. The CIA provided lists of alleged "communists", including union leaders, who were promptly executed. Castillo Arma's brutal crackdown touched off the civil war in 1960 which dragged on for 36 years and killed over one hundred thousand (100,000) people --in a country with a current population of only 13 million.” http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=962298

-1959 The US gets involved in Vietnam to prevent the spread of communism, though the CIA was already involved covertly. The Vietnam war eventually made rich people (like the *Texas* firms of Brown and Root, and Bell Helicopter) much richer.

-1961 President Eisenhower leaves office warning the public (and his successor) of the dangers of the "military industrial complex"/war business in a speech. ("We have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions…we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted.”)

Since Eisenhower gave briefings to President Elect Kennedy, it’s logical to assume he mentioned his concerns about the CIA running foreign policy. Especially since he was seriously embarrassed in 1960 when the Russians shot down a U-2 military spy plane the CIA talked him into sending. But planning for the CIA invasion of Cuba very far along at this point.
(Note: Nazi profiteer Prescott Bush, George W. Bush’s grandfather was a close associate of Eisenhower and a powerful force in the formation of the CIA. Also note: Nixon was Eisenhower’s Vice President, and was sponsored in politics by Prescott Bush.)

-1961 JFK becomes president (after beating Prescott Bush’s boy Richard Nixon). He’s told that the CIA is planning a covert takeover of communist (Russian sponsored) Cuba at the Bay of Pigs and assured that overt military operations won’t be needed. He grudgingly goes along. The April 17 Bay of Pigs is a disaster and JFK refuses to send military aircraft to help the CIA. Also as a result of the failure, CIA director Allen Dulles, deputy CIA director Charles Cabell, and Deputy Director of Operations Richard Bissell were all forced to resign. The CIA and exiled Cuban dissidents hate JFK from this point on.

Long after President Kennedy had ordered a halt to the covert campaign against Castro, senior CIA staffers approved plans to kill Castro, without seeking presidential authorization. They also continued other covert operations against Cuba in violation of the President's instructions.

The Cuban Missile Crisis occurs as a direct result of the CIA’s Bay of Pigs invasion.

-1963 JFK announces plans to bring 1000 troops home from Vietnam immediately, and *all US personnel* (so stated to include soldiers *and* CIA agents) home by 1965. He pursues peace with Russia by signing the nuclear test ban treaty, promising not to invade Cuba (actually negotiated during the Missile Crisis), and gives a major speech at American University making it clear he wants to end the cold war. He starts printing US currency instead of Federal Reserve currency (to prevent us from paying interest on our own money). He plans to reduce or eliminate the oil depletion allowance that is a major factor in making Texas oil moguls so rich.

He also makes it very clear that he thinks the CIA are out of control and wants them eliminated.

The New York Times, October 3, 1963, published an article "The Intra-Administration War in Vietnam" by Arthur Krock which quoted a high government official in the White House as saying: "If the United States ever experiences (an attempt at a coup to overthrow the Government) it will come from the C. I. A. and not the Pentagon.”
(http://www.jfklancer.com/Krock.html)

Kennedy said to his collaborator Clark Clifford (shortly after the failed Bay of Pigs invasion) that, "Something very bad is going on within the CIA and I want to know what it is. I want to shred the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter them to the four winds."

-1963/November 22 The CIA et al murders JFK in Dallas, TX
Afterwards Lyndon Johnson (who was long sponsored in politics by Brown and Root) takes the oath of office on Air Force One flying from Dallas, gets a wink from fellow *Texan* Congressman Albert Thomas, and within days has canceled JFK’s orders to end the Vietnam war, instead escalating it dramatically.
(Note: Recently declassified memos from FBI kingpin J. Edgar Hoover show that “George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency” was in Dallas when JFK was killed. Note 2: The mayor of Dallas at that time was Earle Cabell, brother of Charles Cabell.)

-1963/December 22 Former President Harry Truman writes an article in the Washington Post entitled “Limit CIA Role To Intelligence” in which he says:
“For some time I have been disturbed by the way CIA has been diverted from its original assignment. It has become an operational and at times a policy-making arm of the Government. This has led to trouble and may have compounded our difficulties in several explosive areas.
I never had any thought that when I set up the CIA that it would be injected into peacetime cloak and dagger operations…But there are now some searching questions that need to be answered…There is something about the way the CIA has been functioning that is casting a shadow over our historic position and I feel that we need to correct it.”
(Full text attached)

>1964 Ted Kennedy is in "a plane crash in which the pilot and one of Kennedy's aides were killed. He was pulled from the wreckage by fellow senator Birch E. Bayh II (D-Ind.) and spent weeks in a hospital recovering from a severe back injury, a punctured lung, broken ribs, and internal bleeding.

-1965 the FBI et al murders Malcolm X shortly after he allied with MLK

-1968 the FBI et al murders MLK one year after he says his mission is to end the morally and fiscally wrong Vietnam war and thereby free up funds to help poor people

-1968 RFK starts a run for president. He has said he’ll end the (President Johnson’s) Vietnam war and shows great concern for civil rights. He also says he’ll investigate his brother’s murder. He wins the CA primary thereby almost assuring the Dem nomination.

-1968 the CIA et al murders RFK on the night he wins the CA primary. With RFK gone, Richard Nixon (one of the few people who can't remember where they were when JFK was killed) is able to become president.

>1969 Ted Kennedy wakes up someplace in Chappaquiddick and is told he was in a car crash that killed Mary Jo Kopechne. Any chance of ever being president has also been killed (tho’ he briefly considered it in 1972).

-1972 “Nixon attempts to stop the FBI investigation into the Watergate burglary by asking the head of the CIA to say it was one of their own operations. It wasn't. To pressure the CIA into going along with the plan he tells his chief of staff HR Haldeman,
as recorded on the White House tapes, to let the head of the CIA know that should the FBI not to continue their investigation because it could “Open up the whole Bay of Pigs thing...” In his book 'The Ends of Power' Haldeman states that Nixon used 'The Bay of Pigs' as a euphemism for the JFK assassination.” http://homepage.ntlworld.com/neal.mccarthy/jfkvideos.htm
(Note: The Watergate “burglars” are veterans of the Bay of Pigs, and include E. Howard Hunt.
Note: “Most of the CIA leadership around the invasion of Cuba seems to have been people from Texas. A whole Texan branch of the CIA is based in the oil business. If we trace Bush's background in the Texas oil business we discover his two partners in the oil-barge leasing business: Texan Robert Mosbacher and Texan James Baker….On the Watergate tapes, June 23, 1972, referred to in the media as the "smoking gun" conversation, Nixon and his Chief of Staff, H.R. Haldeman, discussed…the role of George Bush's partner, Robert Mosbacher, as one of the Texas fundraisers for Nixon. On the tapes Nixon keeps refering to the "Cubans" and the "Texans." The "Texans" were Bush, Mosbacher and Baker. This is another direct link between Bush and evidence linking Nixon and Bush to the Kennedy assassination.

In the same discussion Nixon links "the Cubans," "the Texans," "Helms," "Hunt," "Bernard Barker," Robert "Mosbacher" and "the Bay of Pigs." Over and over on the Watergate tapes, these names come up around the discussion of the photos from Dallas that Nixon was trying to obtain when he ordered the CIA to burglarize the Watergate. (Source: Three Men and a Barge", Teresa Riordan, Common Cause magazine, March/April 1990, and San Francisco Chronicle, May 7,1977, interview with Frank Sturgis in which he stated that "the reason we burglarized the Watergate was because Nixon was interested in stopping news leaking related to the photos of our role in the assassination of President John Kennedy.")

After Nixon's landslide victory in 1972, he knew he had to centralize all power into the White House to keep his faction in power, not only to hold power, but to prevent the media from digging into how he secretly shot his way into the White House, just like Hitler shot his way into control of Germany. The first thing Nixon did was to demand signed resignations of his entire government. "Eliminate everyone," he told John Ehrlichman about reappointment, "except George Bush. Bush will do anything for our cause." (Source: Pledging Allegiance, Sidney Blumenthal.)
http://www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/dead_kennedys/161963.html)

>1973 John Dean, Nixon’s lawyer, says to Richard Nixon as recorded on the White House tapes: "If Teddy knew the bear trap he was walking into at Chappaquiddick. . . ."

-1974 Richard Nixon resigns in disgrace, making newly appointed Vice President Gerald Ford President. Ford was on the Warren Commission which claimed that there was no conspiracy to kill JFK. Ford was one of the main proponents of Arlen Spector’s “magic bullet” theory that was needed to prop up the premise that there was only one shooter (supposedly Lee Harvey Oswald, who by the way was an FBI informer and CIA agent).

-1974 President Ford pardons Richard Nixon.

-1975 President Ford names George HW Bush CIA Director

-1981/January President Reagan is sworn in with George HW Bush as Vice President.

-1981/March President Reagan, his press secretary James Brady, and two others were shot by John Hinckley, Jr.. Missing Reagan’s heart by less than one inch, the bullet instead struck his left lung, which likely spared his life. The shooter was John Hinckley, brother of Scott Hinckley who was scheduled to have dinner with Neil Bush, son of George HW Bush, the night of the shooting.

-1985 A civil court jury ruled against CIA agent and convicted Watergate “burglar” E. Howard Hunt’s claims of libel after determining that he was in Dallas on June 21, 1963 – the day before JFK’s murder – and was therefore most likely involved in the conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy.

-1989 George HW Bush (one of the few people who can't remember where they were when JFK was killed) becomes president

-2001 George W Bush becomes president in an obvious coup we all witnessed. And the rest is history!

Refs:
Available on request or via google, etc.

--

The Washington Post
December 22, 1963 - page A11
Harry Truman Writes:
Limit CIA Role
To Intelligence
By Harry S Truman
Copyright, 1963, by Harry S Truman
________________________________________
INDEPENDENCE, MO., Dec. 21 — I think it has become necessary to take another look at the purpose and operations of our Central Intelligence Agency—CIA. At least, I would like to submit here the original reason why I thought it necessary to organize this Agency during my Administration, what I expected it to do and how it was to operate as an arm of the President.
I think it is fairly obvious that by and large a President's performance in office is as effective as the information he has and the information he gets. That is to say, that assuming the President himself possesses a knowledge of our history, a sensitive understanding of our institutions, and an insight into the needs and aspirations of the people, he needs to have available to him the most accurate and up-to-the-minute information on what is going on everywhere in the world, and particularly of the trends and developments in all the danger spots in the contest between East and West. This is an immense task and requires a special kind of an intelligence facility.
Of course, every President has available to him all the information gathered by the many intelligence agencies already in existence. The Departments of State, Defense, Commerce, Interior and others are constantly engaged in extensive information gathering and have done excellent work.
But their collective information reached the President all too frequently in conflicting conclusions. At times, the intelligence reports tended to be slanted to conform to established positions of a given department. This becomes confusing and what's worse, such intelligence is of little use to a President in reaching the right decisions.
Therefore, I decided to set up a special organization charged with the collection of all intelligence reports from every available source, and to have those reports reach me as President without department "treatment" or interpretations.
I wanted and needed the information in its "natural raw" state and in as comprehensive a volume as it was practical for me to make full use of it. But the most important thing about this move was to guard against the chance of intelligence being used to influence or to lead the President into unwise decisions—and I thought it was necessary that the President do his own thinking and evaluating.
Since the responsibility for decision making was his—then he had to be sure that no information is kept from him for whatever reason at the discretion of any one department or agency, or that unpleasant facts be kept from him. There are always those who would want to shield a President from bad news or misjudgments to spare him from being "upset."
For some time I have been disturbed by the way CIA has been diverted from its original assignment. It has become an operational and at times a policy-making arm of the Government. This has led to trouble and may have compounded our difficulties in several explosive areas.
I never had any thought that when I set up the CIA that it would be injected into peacetime cloak and dagger operations. Some of the complications and embarrassment I think we have experienced are in part attributable to the fact that this quiet intelligence arm of the President has been so removed from its intended role that it is being interpreted as a symbol of sinister and mysterious foreign intrigue—and a subject for cold war enemy propaganda.
With all the nonsense put out by Communist propaganda about "Yankee imperialism," "exploitive capitalism," "war-mongering," "monopolists," in their name-calling assault on the West, the last thing we needed was for the CIA to be seized upon as something akin to a subverting influence in the affairs of other people.
I well knew the first temporary director of the CIA, Adm. Souers, and the later permanent directors of the CIA, Gen. Hoyt Vandenberg and Allen Dulles. These were men of the highest character, patriotism and integrity—and I assume this is true of all those who continue in charge.
But there are now some searching questions that need to be answered. I, therefore, would like to see the CIA be restored to its original assignment as the intelligence arm of the President, and that whatever else it can properly perform in that special field—and that its operational duties be terminated or properly used elsewhere.
We have grown up as a nation, respected for our free institutions and for our ability to maintain a free and open society. There is something about the way the CIA has been functioning that is casting a shadow over our historic position and I feel that we need to correct it.



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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #107
112. Having seem them interaction on CSPAN
especially when AFTER the election Senator Kennedy spoke when Senator Kerry got a lifetime achievement award from the Kennedy Center. His speech was warm, friendly and very very complementary. He started by saying he knew Kerry as a young vet, a prosecutor, a lt Governor and "his longest serving Junior Senator" and he had hoped his President, but that still could be" What was clear is that Kerry had impressed him throughout his life, especially as he ran for President.
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bobbie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #112
117. I'm glad karynnj, thanks for your post
Even knowing the pressures Ted Kennedy is under..., I'd hate to think he'd mislead us.
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Chimichurri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
66. that's why the ailing republicans are stunned at BushCo's arrogance and
Edited on Mon Oct-16-06 09:38 AM by Chimichurri
lack of planning for a GOP loss. Bush and his cabal know they have nothing to worry about because the election will be stolen again. Dems will not obtain control come November because Bush and his cohorts' asses are on the line if they do. look at what they've done to this country in 6 years - what's a few more million stolen votes gonna do to them. Nothing. They get away with everything and will continue to.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
68. i understand the Ohio fraud and the lost electoral college win
Can you identify where the 5 million votes were stolen?
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
79. Did I miss a memo? What 5 million votes? n/t
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. RFK calculated that about 5 million votes were lost, stopped, or stolen.
His case was compelling - even Clinton said it was convincing.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
84. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 ho
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
85. 2000: Gore won Florida. 2002: Cleland won Georgia. 2004: Kerry won Ohio.
No doubt as to the cause of that the "upbeat mood" that reporters have noticed about Bush and Rove as the world around them is in flames: DIEBOLD.
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bobbie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #85
106. Gore fought like hell, Kerry didn't
...
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #106
114. Can you compute the difference between 537 and approx 118,000?
It explains the reason - Gore had reason to hope a recount would change things. There have been errors of that magnitude. That is not true of 118,000.
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focusfan Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
86. to be honest I think Kerry was bought off
I think thats why he conceeded so soon after the
election.think about it he gave up too easily.
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bobbie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #86
93. But I think he was bought off in college
When initiated into Skull and Bones. It's *the* insider's club, the womb of the CIA... The CIA insiders have controlled almost every election since Nov 22, 1963.

And 2004 was not one of the exceptions.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #93
95. LOL. Big bad wolf - Big bad wolf.
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bobbie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. Ah, an insightful and thought-provoking post indeed...
:evilgrin:
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. It was not meant to be any more than yours was.
Edited on Mon Oct-16-06 08:10 PM by Mass
:evilgrin:

EDITED
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bobbie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. What? Could you at least be coherant?
Por favor.


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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #100
103. insightful and self-provoking. I hope you did not think yours was?
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bobbie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. Okey dokey, didn't think you had much to add
end of transmission
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #105
111. That explains it you are not human
Could you return to wherever you came from?
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #86
94. LOL. Bought off. What could they pay him that Teresa cannot afford?
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bobbie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #94
98. Power, Prestige
Duh
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #98
102. What power or prestige is higher than being president?
:shrug:
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bobbie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. Maybe actually running the planet
Like Cheney, Wolfowitz, Kristol, Baker, Rove... None of whom have been sworn into the office of president, but they're sure as hell in charge.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #104
110. I fail to see them following Kerry's every command
They seem to be only about 180 degrees off.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #98
109. Wouldn't the Presidency give him that
How do they give him more power or prestige than the Presidency he is "giving up"

You know it may be better to drink less before you post.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
101. it's gotten worse since 2004
2004 was worse than 2002

2002 was worse than 2000

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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-16-06 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
113. The question is, what will Dems do if they pull it off again? anything?!!
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