AGAIN...my son, his school and him NOT saying the Pledge of Allegiance

[in_cog_ni_to]

Long time DUers know the story from last year when my son refused to say the Pledge at school and his teacher embarrassed him for it in front of the entire class. We had a run around with them which involved the ACLU. Well, last week a substitute teacher "jokingly", with a smile on her face, said, "I'm suppose to report all terrorists who don't say the Pledge." Even as a "joke" I don't find that humorous. Today, the regular teacher pulled him aside after giving him "a mean glare during the pledge" (my son's words) and asked him why he didn't say the Pledge...(at least SHE did this privately) and he told her he didn't say the Pledge because he didn't want to and his mom told him it was his right not to have to say it. Her reply was a gruff, "OK, go sit down." I feel like this is growing to be problem.....again.

I've decided to take a different tact this year and email the teacher with an explanation in hopes of putting an end to this crap. I suspect she already went to the principle about this. If I email her, she can print this out and give a copy to him, the principle....it'll save him a phone call to us.

I need to know if I have all my figures/numbers/facts correct and if you think this is too much? I don't think just telling her we hate this administration will suffice. I want her to know all or many of the reasons. I want her know we know what's going on in the world. I want her to know my son knows all these things and this is why he has chosen not to say the Pledge. He's in 8th grade this year. I just want to put an end to the questions in her head. Tell me what you think? Is this too much? Not enough? Should I add anything, leave out something? I was as nice as I could possibly be.;)

What is it with these teachers? Sheesh.


Mrs. *******,



I thought I'd take this opportunity to try to explain to you why my son, **** *******, chooses not to say the Pledge of Allegiance in school. He told me that you pulled him aside to ask why he doesn't say the Pledge. Let me just take this chance to say Thank you for not trying to embarrass him in front of the entire class with your question. Last year the teacher didn't afford him that consideration.



I am a political activist and he is exposed to politics on a daily basis. Our household does not support the current administration and their choice to preemptively and illegally invade another sovereign country that had nothing to do with September 11. Mr. Bush chose to invade Iraq for his own political purposes and he lied to the citizens of this country in order to do that. Mr. Bush has admitted Iraq had nothing to do with 911 and that means he lied.



Since he chose to preemptively and illegally invade Iraq based on lies, our country is now hated around the world. All of our allies, which took decades to establish, now hate us and don't trust us. Now, it will take generations to regain their trust.



This administration invaded Iraq based on lies and has killed over 2,700 of our soldiers and 655,000 innocent Iraqi men, women and children BECAUSE of those lies. They have created a $7 TRILLION debt, a $4 TRILLION trade deficit; we spend $122,820 a minute on this illegal invasion while OUR country goes without. They have built 10 PERMANENT military bases in Iraq and a multi-million dollar "Embassy CITY" in Baghdad while our citizens go without.



Our schools function on limited budgets, homeless people still suffer, our senior citizens have to choose between food and medicine, people are having to pay higher gas prices, higher grocery bills, higher medical bills, higher property taxes and higher health insurance bills. Yet, Mr. Bush's and Mr. Cheney's oil buddies from Exxon and Chevron reap record profits this year...the largest profits they have ever made?



After this administration decided to illegally invade Iraq, they chose to wrap themselves in our flag. They called us and every Democrat in this country "unpatriotic" if we didn't support their war. They told us we were "either with them or we're against them." They told us "if you don't support this war, you don't support our troops." They, to this day, call us "terrorists", "commies", "Nazis", and "Reds."



This is not an administration we could ever support. We don't support Bush, we don't support his outrageous foreign policies, we don't support his horrid domestic policies and we don't support his lies. There's so much more we don't like and can't support, but for this purpose, I'll save you from having to read it.



When this administration is out of office and our government is something to be proud of again, then, perhaps, **** may choose to say the Pledge in school (his choice, not ours). He's making a political statement which is his right to do and as far as we're concerned, he's on the side of what's good and right...



He's really not a terrorist (another teacher "jokingly" insinuated he is). He loves his country. We've told him what this country use to be like (his father is a WWII Veteran, BTW). He knows how we were respected around the world. He knows how everyone's "dream" use to be to "go to America and live the American Dream", he knows America was the most loved and respected country in the world and this administration has squandered that love and respect in 6+ short years......heck, even Americans are having a hard time "living the American Dream" these days.



The current administration has destroyed generations of foreign policies and goodwill that our past Presidents worked so hard to establish and their Domestic policies have left our citizens to struggle. **** knows that. His father and I respect his decision to not say the Pledge. It's not because he hates his country, it's because he LOVES his country and wants it back from this current administration and not saying the Pledge is his way of saying that. That's HIS statement and t.hat's all there is to it.



We hope this clarifies the situation for you and if you have any other questions, feel free to email us or you can call ***-****.



Kind Regards,
****** *******

[Freedom_from_Chains]

1. "I'm suppose to report all terrorists who don't say the Pledge."

Well with some of the laws they have passed recently, it could be coming down to that.

[Art_from_Ark]

2. Maybe nit-picky, but

the 13-14-year-old boy's *father* is a WWII vet? Perhaps you meant "grandfather"?

[David in Canada]

16. I'm 25 and my dad was a WWII veteran...

I'm 25-years-old and my dad served in the US Navy from 1942-1945, mostly in the Pacific theater. He also served at the Isle of Capri and was around Vesuvius just after its 1944 eruption.

He died at age 81 this May. He was 57 years old when I was born.

[Parche]

53. navy

I am a history buff, especially the Pacific 1941-1945, what ship was he on?

[ClassWarrior]

3. Honestly, in_cog, if the teacher or principal is one of "them"...

...that'll all bounce off their brains. Better to speak in values, i.e., that we're a free country where we can do as we choose, and the minority view - not the majority view - is protected by our Constitution.

You might also want to first pick up Lakoff's new book, "Thinking Points," or read the parts they already have online at http://www.RockridgeInstitute.org/ThinkingPoints. I know your statement above means the world from your perspective (because it's my perspective too), but we need to communicate to these people in a new way if we want to get through to them.

:hi: my friend.

NGU.

[in_cog_ni_to]

21. Hi CW!

I went that route last year and it seems to have gone over their heads....or as you say, "bounced off their brains." Every teacher in that school is suppose to be aware of the policy. The Principle sent me a copy of it and said all of his teachers know it. One would THINK after the ACLU was involved they would make damn sure no teacher harassed the students for this. No?

Thanks for your good advice, BTW. :hi:

[ClassWarrior]

34. Well, keep on keeping on...

...and do read the book. Lots - and I mean LOTS - of valuable insight in that little tome.

NGU.

[MADem]

4. I dunno...if you are comfortable sharing all that, that's up to you

...but here's my take: it's NOT THEIR BUSINESS why your kid doesn't want to say the Pledge. He doesn't HAVE to explain himself. And you don't have to bare your souls, or your politics, for your kid to express himself freely as guaranteed by our Constitution.

It could be that he has an obsessive-compulsive horror of saying the word FLAG. It could be that he doesn't believe our nation is under God. It could be he doesn't believe that we are "indivisible" or that we really have "liberty and justice for all." Or it could be he'd rather pick his teeth at that moment in the morning.

It's frankly none of their goddamned business WHY he doesn't want to do it.

And it would be lovely if the school administrators and teachers would STOP badgering him about it, because if they don't, that not unimportant issue of untoward harassment would have to be resolved judicially...that's kinda how I'd handle it.

[Cameron27]

8. Or maybe pledging one's

allegiance to a Flag just sounds pretty silly when you think about it. Does any other country do that sort of thing?

[MADem]

25. Well, the Hitler Youth kinda swiped some of the gestures from us!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_salute


The Bellamy salute is the hand gesture described by Francis Bellamy to accompany his Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States. During the period when it was used with the Pledge of Allegiance, it was sometimes known as the "flag salute." It was first demonstrated on October 12, 1892 according to Bellamy's published instructions for the "National School Celebration of Columbus Day":

At a signal from the Principal the pupils, in ordered ranks, hands to the side, face the Flag. Another signal is given; every pupil gives the flag the military salute -- right hand lifted, palm downward, to a line with the forehead and close to it. Standing thus, all repeat together, slowly, “I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands; one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.” At the words, “to my Flag,” the right hand is extended gracefully, palm upward, toward the Flag, and remains in this gesture till the end of the affirmation; whereupon all hands immediately drop to the side.
(quoted from The Youth’s Companion, 65 (1892): 446–447.)
The initial military salute was soon replaced with a hand-on-heart gesture, followed by the extension of the arm as described by Bellamy. Because of the similarity of this part of the salute to the Hitler salute, the Bellamy salute was replaced in 1942 with the modern gesture of placing the hand over the heart without raising the arm.

[in_cog_ni_to]

27. That is so creepy.

:scared:

[Cameron27]

43. I'll second the creepy feeling.

Ick :scared:

[in_cog_ni_to]

12. I know it's none of their business, but that doesn't seem to sink in.

Supposedly, the principle informed ALL the teachers what the policy is on this (at least that what he said he did) and she was either absent that day or chooses to ignore the information. I REALLY don't want to have to drag the ACLU into this again.

New year, new teacher, same shit.

[MADem]

15. Just tell them one more time to lay off the kid, or you'll go judicial on

their asses, and you really don't want to do that. Thus, you'd appreciate that the principal, or the superintendent, make damn sure that all the teachers are briefed and your child, or any other child for that matter, is not subjected to undue harassment.

I'd leave it at that if it were me. And I'd take any and every complaint to the highest branch in the school department, be it the principal or the school superintendent--not the teacher. Let the shit roll downhill, is my take. And demand that the superintendent advise you in writing when appropriate action has been taken.

But it's up to you at the end of the day.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. I'd suggest just pointing out that your son has the legal right

to not say the pledge and that it is unfair for the school to draw any inference from that. I am concerned that explaining in detail your political views might only cause the teacher (if she is actually a Bushazoid) to react negatively to your son. The single issue is NOT why your son chooses not to say the pledge -- the only thing that matters is that he has the absolute right to not say it.

[Glorfindel]

6. You were too nice...I'm in awe of you and your exceptional son

and I thank you for teaching him to stand up for what he believes in.

[usregimechange]

7. I would leave out the long blurp about the Iraq war.

Otherwise good job.

[SheilaT]

9. I don't know if you should

connect your son's not saying the Pledge quite so specifically to what this administration has done. Perhaps you could stick to the theme that patriotism is not just glibly reciting some "Pledge", but is what a person actually does day to day.

Personally, I've stopped reciting the Pledge because when you actually think about it, it's quite creepy. Allegiance to a flag? Good grief! Pledging fidelity to one's country might make sens, but a flag?

[4bucksagallon]

10. Gee I must be old, I can remember saying the pledge without the words

"under god" just "one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all".

[MADem]

19. Hey, don't feel bad...it got added during the McCarthy era

And once upon a time, it didn't have

OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

in it, either...they added that because they were afraid all the dreadful Irish and Eye-talian and Polish immigrant little punks would think about the flags of their parents' nations instead of the old red, white and blue.

If you go back to the original verse, it flows nicely with a peppy cadence. Now, with the additions, it's ponderous, political, and it sucks.

[Neurotica]

11. I agree with ocelot

Your son doesn't have to justify something that is his right.

BTW -- my younger son (3rd grade now) has previously initiated conversations on censorship in school (e.g., at "sharing time"). I look forward to his response to the whole pledge situation someday...

[gratuitous]

13. I HATE asterisks!

That does it, I'm outing your son: His name is Ti_to. Ti_to In_cog_ni_to.

Well, it should be. :hi:

[HCE SuiGeneris]

14. Well expressed!

I think it is a very clear and well expressed letter. I would advocate sitting down with the principal and teacher and letting them read this letter. Your letter does not have to remain in their possession.

[Guaranteed]

17. I would not send that email. Seriously.

That is way too much explanation.

If the teacher does nothing more at this point, I would just leave it that way.

The fact is that your son doesn't need to explain why he doesn't want to pledge his alliance to a flag. You don't need to explain it for him, either. It's his right, whatever his reasoning. That is what the flag stands for.

Besides, if you're equating the flag with BushCo, you may not win the argument.

I would just let it be at this point, not stoke the fire. Your son has his rights, and they are secure. There's no need to defend them until they need defending.

[madrchsod]

18. i rarely said the pledge of allegiance

when i was in school it seems no one gave a shit back then...

[matt819]

20. Well done

We had the same issue here and also wrote a letter to the principal. We didn't go into the political aspect, as you did, but rather observed that taking a pledge is not something one does or needs to do daily. A husband and wife pledge themselves to one another during their marriage vows, but they don't repeat those vows every day. The president takes his oath (another pledge) when he is inaugurated; he doesn't repeat that oath daily. If you join the military or certain branches of government at a certain level, you pledge your oath to protect and defend, etc. But you don't repeat this pledge every morning. You live your vows and by your actions reflect your commitment to your pledge (except, of course, the current occupant of the white house), but you don't need to repeat that oath every morning. To do so belittles the commitment and makes the pledge effectively meaningless.

By the way, we did not receive so much as an acknowledgment from this principal.

[Guaranteed]

22. I can't think of a better response than that, right there. nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

24. I LOVE that letter!

I said something similar to my son today when he told me what happened. "You said the pledge every day during 1st-6th grade. Why do you need to say the pledge every day? It's just a piece of cloth...what is it with these people?"

Your letter is great. I can't believe the principle never responded. If I decide to not go political...as suggested by some here, would you mind if I use what you wrote? I really like it.

Thanks for your input!

[Hissyspit]

35. And they are pledging to defend the Constitution, not the flag. n/t

[Maddy McCall]

23. It's too much.

Give a succinct reason, supported by legal case law affirming your son's rights, as to why your son won't say the pledge.

And leave it at that.

Otherwise, your email makes you sound like you're trying to convince her to see things your way, politically speaking. That's not your goal, though. YOur goal is to have your son in the position not to say the pledge without being harrassed by teachers.

You should be able to say everything you need to say in a paragraph or two.

Also, the fact that you're a political activist isn't important. This is about your son, not you.

[in_cog_ni_to]

26. OK...thanks.

That's why I came here before I hit "send"....Thank you.

[Maddy McCall]

40. You're welcome...

...and keep us updated on how this turns out.

[zeemike]

28. Better yet why not ask the teacher to assign your child

a paper for extra credits on why he does not pledge allegiance to the flag.
After all school is for learning and maybe both teacher and child could learn something from it.

[Frazzled Educator]

29. And this is why I'd make a crappy principal when I finish my Master's

Because I'd defend the kid.

Keep it up. . .Barnette V. West Virginia is your protection and your right.

[in_cog_ni_to]

37. Wish you were our principle!

You wouldn't be a crappy principle if you defend the law! Kids need adults like you.

[ComerPerro]

30. And yet the "UNDER GOD!!!!" freaks insist that this doesn't happen

how odd...

Surely they aren't lying...

gasp

:hi:

[in_cog_ni_to]

39. Nah...RW, religious, wacko nut jobs

don't lie!:eyes:

LOL! :hi:

[Solo_in_MD]

31. IMO, you are asking for trouble with this approach

Educrats are power freaks and you are already rocking the boat. This could well be pouring gasoline onto a fire and your son will be a victim, not you. Speaking truth to power approach is not a choice he can make at this age nor defend adequately with adults, not that they would take him seriously anyway.

I suggest you drop all the reasons and political statements and simply state:
- That your son chooses not to say the pledge and that is within his rights.
- Thank the teacher for discussing it privately and calmly with your son, and that you expect to have it kept private.
- Require that any future discussions of this with your son only be done in your presence.
- Refer the teacher to the principal if they have any questions, point out that this was settled last year.
- Ask in the instructions left for any substitute teacher state that his actions are acceptable
- You expect any harassment by his peers over this be quelled by the staff immediately

Send it to the teacher and copy his guidance counselor and the principal.

When he is challenged on this by an adult in school (and he will be). His only response must be.
- It is my right not to
- I choose not to discuss it with you further
- The school has already been directed that this is to be discussed only with my parent present
- Get the name of the person and report it to you for followup.

If harrassed by a peer, he needs to:
- Report it to staff with a request that it be stopped
- Get the name of the person and report it to you for followup

The hardest part for an adolesence to do is to stick to those kinds of instructions. If he does, its a slam dunk, if he doesn't he could well get slammed.

My thoughts as a former public school teacher and parent

[in_cog_ni_to]

36. Great advice....thank you.

:hi:

[aikoaiko]

32. By my way of thinking, saying the pledge has little to do with Bushco

After all it isnt a pledge to Bush and his administration's policies.

However, I respect your and your son's civil disobedience.

The letter is long, but well written. If the readers don't dismiss you as a lunatic by the first paragraph, they may come to understand your position.

best wishes with this.

[roody]

33. Every Monday morn, I model freedom at the

whole school assembly around the flag pole. I quit saying the pledge when we invaded Iraq, but before then, I said under dog, because my god is dog. I teach first grade.

[Union Thug]

38. You're too nice. Just say, "he doesn't have to say the goddamned

pledge of allegiance. He doesn't have to pledge allegiance to any fucking country or it's whack-a-doodle pseudo-fascist leadership,so shut the fuck up."

[in_cog_ni_to]

41. LOL....

do you think she'd get the message with that tactful line? :) I don't know, these teachers seem to be pretty damn dense.

[Union Thug]

42. One of my father's friends took that tact with anyone that shoved

god or the flag down his throat. No one every messed with us when Mahoney was around! That guy was the most effective union rep I've ever seen. In your face, no fear of anyone. My lack of tact is a result of seeing how powerful it can be if you gain the intimidation edge straight away. :-)

[moondust]

44. Show me "liberty and justice for all"

and I'll show you the Military Commissions Act of 2006 that allows one U.S. citizen to order the permanent lockup and torture of anybody he/she chooses.

Empty words are for empty heads.

[Emit]

45. I'm a parent of a teen who refuses to say the pledge, too

I think your letter is great. Just great. It sums up exactly all the reasons my daughter refuses to say the pledge and it is not dissimilar to what I have imagined I might have to write some day. (Edited to add that I doubt mine would be as well-written and reasonable) Btw, there are four other teens in her class that refuse to say the pledge.

As far as others who have advised not sending this or that it is too personal -- I say sending a well-articulated letter like this is so necessary now for our cause. While we still can, we need to speak frankly like this every chance we get before it's too late. Maybe others who are totally missing the boat will catch a clue. Bravo!

[in_cog_ni_to]

48. Has your daughter ever been confronted by her teacher and asked for

a reason why she doesn't say the pledge? She's lucky she has 4 other kids to take a stand with her. Last year my son had a friend who didn't say it, but he got in trouble by his parents for it. They grounded him for a week. :( They're Democrats too! This year, my son is the one and only in class not saying the pledge. I'm so glad he's not letting the teacher intimidate him and that's what she's trying to do by asking him why he doesn't say it.

Give your daughter a hug for me! :hug: And thank you for the compliments and advice. I really do appreciate it. I'm going to have to sleep on this.

[Emit]

51. No, she's never been confronted

She's a soph now in HS, and she started back in 8th grade not saying the pledge. I do recall she once said that her teacher (and this would've been in 8th grade) gave her a funny look, but nothing ever came from it.

Now, the pledge is recited in her science teacher's class -- she likes him a lot and he seems a reasonable man. She says he is aware these kids are refusing and he probably understands why he's got 4 kids in there that won't recite the pledge and doesn't take issue with it.

I say 'Bravo!' to your boy -- let him know that even though others in his class aren't as brave or aware, there are other teens around the country (and parents who do support them -- unlike the parents of his friend!) who are refusing to say the pledge, too. He's not alone!!

And, now that my daughter is older and more articulate about her reasons for refusal, I trust if she is approached at school that she can handle it. But I'll always back her up. Btw, this was her choice from the beginning. I never once suggested to her to do this. This is what others should understand -- that some kids do get what's going on, and in some ways, this is their silent protest.

[Dorian Gray]

46. You should let your son explain.

It will be more potent if it comes from him. The letter, as written, is quite eloquent and well written, but it explains why YOU don't like the pledge. Unless this becomes a problem for your son again, there really is no need to send that letter. And if it does become a problem, you should unequivocably stand behind your son, yet allow him to voice, in his own words (as an 8th grader, he should have plenty!) why he doesn't want to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

[RapidCreek]

47. While I agree with your and your sons sentiments...

the very fact that his teacher asked him such an assnine question should make clear to you her or his inability to understand why he chooses to do what he does. This person is a TEACHER....a position purportedly filled by people with a college education (which I lack). If this teacher recieved her education in the U.S.A. she or he, at some point, would have had to pass a class called Civics (its the law).....and in that civics class he or she should have learned of the Constitution. Keeping in mind that your sons choice is protected by it's first amendmant....and keeping in mind your sons teacher is to fucking stupid to know this or to recognize the innapropriateness of his or her questioning your sons exercising of it, how can you expect she or he to understand the complexities of the beautiful letter you composed?

I would say KEEP IT SIMPLE......All your son needs to say is "it is my constitutional right not to say the pledge of allegiance". He could add "are you unfamiliar with the First Amendment to the Constitution or do you think that what you teach in this class falls outside it's perview"? This optional little barb might be a bit much for such a dunce to comprehend though....I should follow my own advice.


Peace and Inner Harmony,

RC

[orleans]

49. CALL HER. no email. tell her you went around with this last year

and you expect her to support your kid's right not to say it. and that includes dealing with any shit some other kid might give him.

don't divulge so much of yourself -- it's none of their fucking business -- (better to keep an air of mystery about you) --

or ....

just go talk to the principle (skip the preliminaries)
so if she makes any bitchy comment later the principle can write her up and shove it in her file so it's on record

[area51]

50. Or another pledge...

I pledge allegiance to the flag... :evilgrin:

[Lurking Dem]

52. a suggestion

I went through this with my son in high school and he ended up filing an ACLU case which they settled.

I suggest you do not go into the "reasons" at all for not saying the pledge. It is spitting into the wind.

The only facts you need are that it is your child's Constitutional right to not stand and say the Pledge for WHATEVER reason he may have.

The teacher had to provide my son with (a woefully inadequate) apology but the school had to print out and include in the next round of report card, a Child's Rights Regarding Saying the Pledge of Allegience.

We think this was a very important victory.