OFFICIAL I quit the sellout party circular firing thread

[Roho]

I have read here for the past few weeks posts from many people saying this is the parties last chance to keep your vote.

I have some questions today.

1. Where are you going?

2. What chance does your decision have of helping end the nation nightmare?

3. There are midterms coming up this year do you think you will be able to organize an effective resistance in time?

4. What good does starting threads and posting diatribes about quiting the party do to further your goals?

5. Will Will Pitt engage in circular firing if the Dem's applaud politely during the sotu?

6. Does the Democratic Party have any internal mechanisms to punish Senators that don't tow the party line?

7. Are the threats of quiting not hollow if you don't, and have the threats in the past that have gone unfulfilled not render current and future threats meaningless?

[mike_c]

1. ok, here's my answers....

1. Where are you going?

I joined the Green Party after voting for democrats exclusively since the early 1970s.

2. What chance does your decision have of helping end the nation nightmare?

At least as much as I would have supporting democrats who refuse to fight back, or worse yet who actively participate in the destruction of the American republic.

3. There are midterms coming up this year do you think you will be able to organize an effective resistance in time?

I'm not sure I understand your question. The only midterm election of any consequence to me are local elections-- dominated by the Green Party and the Democratic Party-- and Diane Feinstein's relection. I will vote for any Green or Dem opponent to DiFi, and will simply not vote in that election if there isn't an acceptable progressive challenger. Other than supporting alternatives to DiFi, I don't intend to "organize resistance" during the midterm elections.

4. What good does starting threads and posting diatribes about quiting the party do to further your goals?

I haven't posted any such diatribes since shortly after the 2002 midterm elections. However, I did it then because I was disappointed and frustrated by the Democratic Party, and I've certainly made no secret about my "conversion" since. I think such threads are a way for people to work through their frustrations and arrive at some decision for positive action.

5. Will Will Pitt engage in circular firing if the Dem's applaud politely during the sotu?

LOL-- I don't know. But it might be fun to watch. :popcorn:

6. Does the Democratic Party have any internal mechanisms to punish Senators that don't tow the party line?

Sure-- they range from grassroots refusal of future support to marginalization in the legislative power structure.

7. Are the threats of quiting not hollow if you don't, and have the threats in the past that have gone unfulfilled not render current and future threats meaningless?

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I did in fact shift my broadest alliegance away from the democratic party, including voting for all Green canditates during the 2004 election cycle whenever possible (including Cobb for president). I do agree with you that threatening to leave the party is of little practical use if we don't indeed vote with our feet, but again, I'd suggest that DISCUSSING that threat before the fact is a valuable part of the process of coming to a decision to act.

[Roho]

5. I respect your conviction

I have seen many of your posts and haven't seen any circular firing from you.

thank you for your responses.

[Ladyhawk]

7. Well-thought-out response

Right now I'm wondering what will be more effective: putting the Dem Party on life support and then trying to resurrect it or switching to a new party. If the Dems won't fight for us, then we may as well vote for Republicans. Some of them are fighting for us. Some are not. DiFi is not and if there is an alternative to her, I will vote for the alternative.

[cynatnite]

2. And you will continue to see them posted for some time...

At one time or another everyone gets frustrated with the dems. I know I have. I've done my fair share of bitching about the dems and their lack of fight. I don't expect dems to have the same message. We're a party of diversity where the repukes are not. They expect the party line to be towed and they all speak with exactly the same voice using the same words. ICK!

I don't consider any threat to quit hollow. I see it as venting a frustration when the dems either roll over or just sit on their hands whining about those mean old repukes. I want to see a goddamn fight!

I want the filibuster and I want the dems doing everything they can to tear down this illegal and immoral administration.

[tnlefty]

3. I truly take offense to your number 6 in relation to Alito!!!

This should be seperate from a "party line" stance, period, end of it, IMNSHO. Republicans who actually care about the documents this country was founded on should be freaked by Alito and his unitary executive, fuck you little people, positions.

Oh, number 7: quitTing you left out a t.

I'm not happy about this situation, but for the next few days, weeks, my anger will be focused on the 51%ers and every goddamned republican that I know, especially the female ones.

[Roho]

6. Maybe you misunderstood

What do you see as the party line re alito?

[tnlefty]

9. I honestly believe that are some issues/votes that are so important that

(D)ems should band together on, and there are other votes that I'll cut them a little slack on. However, I'm firmly in the camp that Alito shouldn't have been seated on a circuit court and has absolutely no business on the SCOTUS. What I took offense to was the insinuation that anything (seeming in my mind to this lack of filibuster) would be a "party line" vote. If this is the case, then why am I not hearing this from the repuke side? This disastrous nominee for SCOTUS isn't a party "thing" it should be an AMERICAN "thing".

[Steve A Play]

10. You forgot "it's toe the party line, not 'tow the line'"

Which is correct "Tow the line" or "Toe the line"?
(Folklore/proverbial expressions)

Once a week, as a rule, usually on Sunday, a warship's crew was ordered to fall in at quarters -- that is, each group of men into which the crew was divided would line up in formation in a given area of the deck. To insure a neat alignment of each row, the Sailors were directed to stand with their toes just touching a particular seam. Another use for these seams was punitive. The youngsters in a ship, be they ship's boys or student officers, might be required to stand with their toes just touching a designated seam for a length of time as punishment for some minor infraction of discipline, such as talking or fidgeting at the wrong time. A tough captain might require the miscreant to stand there, not talking to anyone, in fair weather or foul, for hours at a time. Hopefully, he would learn it was easier and more pleasant to conduct himself in the required manner rather than suffer the punishment. From these two uses of deck seams comes our cautionary word to obstreperous youngsters to "toe the line."

(from the Nautical terms and Phrases page)

http://www.history.navy.mil/trivia/trivia03.htm

Steven P. :kick:

[MuseRider]

11. Thanks for that reference.

I always thought it was from standing at the scratch line, the line that was scratched in the dirt before "putting up your dukes". I had no idea it was a Nautical term.

[applegrove]

4. Judge them on their actions when they have both power & information.

Now they have the info. Not the power. Two years ago they had power but bad intel.

I think you should wait until they have both. 2006. Then judge.

[Dr Fate]

13. Bad intel? Did they not have google?

A five minute google search proved that Colin Powell was lying.

Did the Democrats not have google on their computers??

Excuses, excuses.

In reality, DEMS knew Bush was lying, but choose to go along with media perceptions rather than listen to "the crazy Micheal Moore people" who keep getting right over and over...the exact same reason they wont filibuster.

[applegrove]

44. Michael Moore did a diservice by painting Iraq as a happy place

before the War. So much of that documentary was important. But Moore didn't do a perfect job.

Left him open to criticism.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted sub-thread

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[Dr Fate]

12. Or, DEMS could filibuster and unify & energize the base like never before.

n/t

[LittleClarkie]

14. Sometimes I just think it's an internet thing

the "dramatic exit" thread followed by the "I'm not gone yet, but I'm going" thread a few days later.

[theplutsnw]

15. Here are my answers

1. If the Dems don't start following the simple, long standing core Democratic values, such as voting for the people, upholding the constitution, protecting the right to privacy (including the right to chose what to do with ones own body), fighting tooth and nail for equal rights, fair and accurate elections and most important, fighting for PEACE then I will simply become a member of the biggest party in the country, the non-voting one. I have 4 kids raging from 10 months to 5 years. I am tired, but more importantly I am tired of Dems not standing up and fighting for the things that made them Dems in the first place. We should not have to be making all these calls and getting this exasperated. At some point I have to say enough is enough. You know the quote about "why vote for a Dem acting like a Repug. when there is a Repug...

2. Nothing, but I can spend more time with my kids and family and pretend that everything is ok. I have a house, a car and we live in a fairly liberal place, so for now I feel secure and if not, well F*ck it.

3. Not before the midterm elections, but if a viable 3rd party surfaces that promises the core "progressive" values of the old Dem party, you bet your bottom dollar I will fight again. For me it is not the party, but what the party stands for. The Dems are proving more and more everyday that they have forgotten the party of FDR.

4. If a strong progressive party can be formed with the help of those of us here with the same goals, then I would call such posts successful. Or maybe, just maybe, Dean is reading this and he can do more, maybe.

5. I can not speak for Will Pit.

6. Not that I know of. Money talks and as long as campaigns favor the incumbent then challengers have nearly no chance.

7. We all hope that if we squeak loud enough the wheel will get changed. We are frustrated, understandable so, and if we keep giving it our all just to be punched in the stomach again, eventually many of us with give up. That is how human nature works. We can only back a loser for so long.

I believe the radical right is truly evil and hope that someday good will prevail. Whether it is the Dems or another party, we must at some point change our direction. Who knows what it will take to make that happen. I hope my children get to grow up and have children of their own if they want them. And I truly hope this planet can withstand our BS for generations to come.

Thank you for letting my vent.

[upi402]

17. I like your answers better, less angry, can I have them?

:hi:

[theplutsnw]

22. Sure!!!!

[upi402]

16. Here's my answers, do I pass?

1. Where are you going?
-To watch a stupid country get what it has accepted and allowed in this creeping destruction of a beautiful democracy through tacit inaction and undeserved loyalty to party affiliation.
.
2. What chance does your decision have of helping end the nation nightmare?
Like peeling a band-aid quickly. It WILL happen if there is no resistance -which DINOs refuse to provide.

3. There are midterms coming up this year do you think you will be able to organize an effective resistance in time?
Nope, just do all I can do to get a supplanting, place-holder Democrat OUT!

4. What good does starting threads and posting diatribes about quiting the party do to further your goals?
It does something that is not done enough- TALK ABOUT THE PROBLEM -there is no party but the corporate party.

5. Will Will Pitt engage in circular firing if the Dem's applaud politely during the sotu?
Anyway...

6. Does the Democratic Party have any internal mechanisms to punish Senators that don't tow the party line?
Aside from money, nope, not that will get used in real terms.

7. Are the threats of quiting not hollow if you don't, and have the threats in the past that have gone unfulfilled not render current and future threats meaningless?
NOPE, I will vote Republican to get the mold out of the party and call myself Mr Ammonia!

[mcctatas]

18. See what happens...

post a thread about a circular firing squad and all of a sudden it's open season on other DU'ers. OK people, ready...aim...fire!:crazy:
On edit...since the fireworks are mostly gone this will make no sense

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

26. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theplutsnw]

25. I feel stupid asking this

but what exactly does the gold star mean? I do not post much but I have one. Just wondering what it is about.

Thanks!

[alittlelark]

27. It just means that the site means enough to you to donate $5 a year.

[theplutsnw]

29. Thank you and obviously I do care!

[Roho]

32. well

As the posts that first called me a freeper and then a paid operative of the DNC have been removed I'll answer you here and also clarify my op a bit.

I've been a member for 10 days as one member pointed out and have yet to make a donation as I was unaware of the need to do so before engaging in conversation.

The op tries to point out that not all Dem's are spineless and calling the whole party such when ALL the heavy hitters voted NO today is counterproductive and rude.

As there is NO mechanism for rouge Democrats to be punished for not following suite or TOEing the party line it is counter productive to label BOXER, CONYERS, KUCINICH et all spineless while threatening to ditch a party now RUN BY HOWARD DEAN. Dean btw was elected partly due to the grassroots support he has.

As for Will Pitt, I used him as an example of a committed Democrat that wouldn't throw a tantrum and threaten to abandon the party just because he didn't get the result he hoped for.

[alittlelark]

35. sigh.

[Roho]

37. The Sigh Heard Around The World

The BFEE is quaking in their boots.

[mcctatas]

38. ......

:rofl:

[alittlelark]

30. I hate it when I get removed

Really, I do. It is rare - but it still weirds me out.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[InaneAnanity]

23. Canada

or someplace else.

If the Democratic party doesn't grow a backbone and fight tooth and nail for every inch of liberty we deserve, nobody else will.

I've already lost most of my hope in this country. The next few years will determine whether I stay here long term, or live out the rest of my days someplace else.

[upi402]

24. I keep wondering how the Germans knew it was time to go

-Mike Malloy

paraphrased

[MrSlayer]

28. Toe the line! TOE the fucking line!

We just had a thread about this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x4649019

[Czolgosz]

31. I will not support any Senator in the Democratic primary -- I'll support a

governor or a house representative or an ex-general. I think that is the mechanism by which Senators pay the consequence for their failure to lead. John Kerry fooled me once, Russ Feingold and Hillary Clinton almost fooled me in the past, but now I know they will not lead when I am looking for a leader.

[OneBlueSky]

33. there is one slim hope within the Democratic party, imo . . .

first, that Al Gore decides to run, and run on the truth . . .

and second, that Al Gore rejects all corporate money and runs solely on contributions from ordinary citizens . . . thus maintaining his independence to tell the truth, and providing a candidacy devoted to representing the interests of the people rather than those of the corporations . . .

incremental change won't accomplish anything at this point . . . things are too far gone . . . we need a visionary to take on the system outside of the current "rules," and to beat it into submission . . . if he can maintain complete independence from the corporatocracy, Al Gore can do just that . . .

[Roho]

36. This time last year

That Visionary was Howard Dean.

[theplutsnw]

40. Again, could not agree more

unfortunately what he is doing now we won't see the benefits of until we have our elections in the fall. I hope we can take back the house and Senate, but dam-it, we need to show the people that DON'T vote that the Democratic party has their back. We all know what needs to be done, why can't the Dems in DC get onboard? All they need to do is follow Al and Howard's lead.

[theplutsnw]

39. Now that I could get behind

and obviously by my few past posts, I would whole heartedly support Al Gore, ESPECIALLY if he ran sans corporate money. I know there are good Dems, but unfortunately the bad ones are bringing EVERYONE down. My question is, why not switch to R if you are going to act like one so we can get a real D in the race (hint hint Joe-NOmentum!)

[Roho]

41. I think

I think you answered your own question :)

They don't change to R's because the last thing they want in their place is real D's. I have to wonder if the people bitching about the party tonight even listened to Kerry and the rest of the NO vote Democrats speak on the Senate floor today.

Every single reason we in the netroots gave them for voting no was tabled as passionately as humanly possible. I asked what mechanisms if any the Party had to punish those who refused to vote the way a true Democrat would have voted and the answer was there are none.

Instead of moaning or quiting we should be discussing ways to create the leverage we need to change these votes. I am proud of the No voters today and proud of the netroots for giving them the support and information necessary to stand up to these bullies in an educated, articulate, and passionate way.

The fight will never end. Even when we win we will need to stay vigilant and fight to keep the villains at bay.

[DanCa]

34. I think we need a revolving door icon

To represent all the people who leave, than comeback, than leave.

[tedzbear]

42. Not only am I now a Green Party member, but...

...I am running for its County Council in the June Primary. I will also host a Green Party table at Valley College in the free speech zone in front of the cafeteria.

The Green Party is "the little party that could" and it is growing in membership every day.

[PDittie]

43. Bookmarking for now

returning to read and comment later

[KoKo]

45. I'm going where I've been going. To the far left corner of the Dem Party

and if that isn't far enough...I'll move out into something else...that will emerge when they've managed to shove out just enough of us for a NEW MOVEMENT!

I think we will have to wait awhile. But, unless our Dems wake up they are going to find there's a huge force they didn't see coming when they humilated their activists and grassroots and the disenfranchised of America.

It's one step too far that will do it. And we are getting pretty close with their behavior in the last year. Not supporting Election Reform, and pulling "stunts" which never have any results....all the rest that we know about.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. Not quitting. But, I will be voting selectively.

For anti-war, pro-choice, pro-environment, candidates of whatever party.

[WilliamPitt]

47. "Will Will Pitt engage in circular firing if the Dem's applaud politely"

Nope.

Ya gotta understand, though, that it isn't some wild thing to be bitterly disappointed by all this. Alito is a nightmare jurist about to get a lifetime appointment while a quasi-dictatorial President is sitting in the Oval Office. Byrd just put the last nail in the coffin; there's no stopping him now. Byrd, Johnson and Nelson are voting 'yes,' and that leaves exactly two 'yes' votes left before the needed 41 is gone. Lieberman and one more...well, there it is.

It's a pisser.