I am sick to death of this Diebold focus. DUers need to get a clue!!!

[Perky]

You folks who insist that voting is a worthless endeavor because the GOP controls the apparatus....are missing the obvious solution.

The only way to insure fair elections is to get involved at the precinct level. Become a Poll worker. Help count the ballots. Become leaders on election day. Run the frigging election from the ground up. listen and learn about process and security measures. Make sure your machines are secure. make sure local precinct level results match what is being reported at the county level.

HELP count the Ballots at every level. Control the machines. That is all that it takes to insure a fair election.

If you are so intensely worried about the GOP stealing elections for the Love of GOd. Quit pissing and moaning, get of your asses and DO SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE!!!!! Protect the Constitution from the fascists by getting directly involved.

Telling pelople their votes won't be counted is playing into the GOPs hands.

[KingFlorez]

1. Thank you

These people need to stop talking nonsense.

[trumad]

2. Yeah it's not like they've suppressed the vote before....

[keopeli]

3. Unless, of course, they are correct. Then their warning is going unheeded

[sharp_stick]

8. Except that the "warning" that I'm hearing more and more

is all "the vote is fixed, it's not worth doing anything, what's the point the republicans are buying a win again".

I smell the stink of repuke mole when I see it but I sure find it coming in a lot more when we get close to an election. A warning without any indication of what to do to improve the situation is worthless.

The original poster is absolutely correct, work the polls, get busy in your precinct and make damned sure that every vote is counted even the clueless idiots that vote for the repukes deserve to have their votes counted properly.

[mopinko]

17. got a link for that?

i have seen a lot of people here, myself included, railing against our rigged election system. but i have never seen those people say ANYTHING that smacks of "don't bother".
you have to play to win, as they say about lotteries. if you do not vote, you have no standing to challenge the counting. if you have a link to posts saying otherwise, post it.

[glitch]

22. Agreed. I see a lot of these posts bewailing the other posts, but so far

haven't seen the other posts. Most people claiming "Diebold" are also saying we need a massive turnout to overcome it AND to prepare to fight it. That is hardly "don't bother".

[bleever]

47. Exactly. nt

[LostinVA]

60. Lots of 'em, especially the beginning-mid September

A few still crop up, but They are a bit more wily now.

[butterfly77]

34. and remind everyone to use their video phones to catch

suspicious activities and cheating by anyone.

[galloglas]

38. Please read message # 37. n/t

[LostinVA]

59. I'm with you on this...

[melody]

4. I agree completely

The idea of "not voting" because we're "already defeated" is childish and idiotic, imho.

[galloglas]

39. Please provide a cite

The only people I see complaining about this those who have not been fighting for fair elections and the battle against the suppression of voting.

Please provide even ONE cite of someone saying "be afraid of Diebold" AND "don't vote" at the same time.

I fear it is your reading that is at fault, not the message.

Please prove me wrong.

[Perky]

65. Thr OP never mentioned anyone was saying do not vote

Felt the need to clarify

[melody]

78. No one said that.

There's a vast difference between implication and explication. I'd have to give you
my context AND history to provide the first.

[galloglas]

87. Ahhh, but they did!

There is no need to educate me on explication or implication. Got an A in that class. And what I learned is this.

That "You folks who insist that voting is a worthless endeavor because the GOP controls the apparatus....are missing the obvious solution." starts off the OP and is QUITE explicit.

"You folks" clearly makes this a declarative sentence of which "You folks" is the subject.

The verb is "insist".

The predicate is "voting is a worthless endeavor". Everything else are conditional phrases.

And I explicitly asked the author for just one cite where that has been done, but none was forthcoming.

Without a cite, it is just BS.

A rhetorical flourish as in "Have you stopped being your wife?", in which the only implication is made by the OP writer.

The implication that what he protests being said, was actually said. Yet, upon query, he fails to offer proof.

The damage done by such reckless, or invidious, statements is that someone will read it and, unthinkingly, believe it.

If have offered to entertain a restatement of the OP. Otherwise it should be dismissed.

[melody]

151. just observing the mechanics of a difference of opinion

It's not my concern or place to teach you anything. I'm merely pointing out the
degree that underscores the difference of my opinion.

[fasttense]

5. Aside from the obvious reasons for voting,

(If you vote you have a fifty-fifty chance of your vote counting. If you don't vote you have a zero chance of your vote counting. And so you can tell your grandchildren you tried to vote the dictator's party out of office.)

I keep coming back to this: If the repukes are certain they have all the vote counting equipment all rigged to ensure they win, then why are they trying so hard to get people to vote for them? I mean, if you knew the machines were going to count your way no matter what, why sweat it if the christian right abandons you, or if Foley is diddling little boys?

[LA lady]

6. Thank you!

I have posted almost the same thing repeatedly. I went to training to become an election commissioner and now will be the commissioner in charge. I WILL SET THE MACHINES UP AND RUN THE FINAL COUNT. You can become involved and then you will have better comprehension of the whole system.

[Perky]

7. I am not convinced one way or the other on the consipracy

I am open to the possibility....but for cripes sake. The most effectit antidote to fraud is involvement. Itg sure the hell is not blathering on and on and on. ALl I am saying is if you are concerned get involved where it matters most. Serve your community on election day.

[GregD]

9. sorry, I disagree with part of your statement.

<<<HELP count the Ballots at every level. Control the machines. That is all that it takes to insure a fair election.>>>

While I agree with the sentiment of your message, and believe that regardless of whether the system is gamed we still have to be active in the election process, your statement makes me think you have no understanding of either the fundamental issue with the voting machines, or how volunteer members of the public are permitted by law to participate in the counting process.

Members of the public cannot control the machines. Period. The closest you will get to them, for example in California, is to work as a poll worker and feed the optical scan ballots into the scanners or hand out activation cards to allow voters to perform their civic duty.

And you cannot help count the ballots at any level. You may be able to observe the process at the County level, perhaps on the evening of election day, perhaps during whatever mandatory minimum recount process may be called for in your state. (In CA it is 1% of each county.)

But none of these processes influence the results, and unless you get VERY lucky and see something other that issues that invisibly occur within the software, there's not a damn thing you can do to obstruct voting machine fraud.

Sorry, but you are simply wrong IMHO. OTOH, I fully agree that constructive things must be done, such as GOTV. But there is not a damn thing you will likely see with the machines unless you catch someone pocketing memory cards or pulling one out of their pocket like once happened in Riverside, CA.

[Perky]

16. You assume incorrectly

At the end of the election night the local commisioner has a statutory obligation to insure custody of the machines and the the ballot boxes until they are counted. The Tallies reported at the precinct level have to match the numbers at the county clerks office. Know your precinct. Know histortical voring patterns. watch the results...this is not that difficult to detect preinct level fraud. If you fix the proble there. it will be much harder to cheat as the numbers roll-up to the county or state level.

You are right that poll workers can only observe the process. But what I am suggesting is that the Election commisioners brings on staff to actually count the ballots and those roles are also available.

[BeFree]

49. You proved the point

You say: "But what I am suggesting is that the Election commisioners brings on staff to actually count the ballots and those roles are also available."

What happens with the electronic voting is that the machines count the votes. There is no "staff". Frankly, you don't know what you are talking about. There are no humans counting ballots when the machines are used. No "staff".

[magellan]

62. Thank you

How many years have we been railing about this and trying to get the Dems to focus on and fix it. People just refuse to get it. Once your vote is in the machine (DRE or scanned ballot), the software tabulators do the counting. You can have a historic turnout -- but if the tabulators have been programmed to flip votes then as things stand, you will never be able to prove who really won.

I'm still going to vote. But I will not be surprised in the least if there are glaring discrepancies between exit polls and results that cost Dems seats.

[BeFree]

72. Yeah

Really, when you think about it, those that have no clue about diebold think that the Dems honestly lost all those elections. Well, we think better of the Dems, now don't we?

We think the Dems probably won those elections. There is an abyss betwixt them and us, eh?

[KoKo]

73. The OP really doesn't have any idea what we've been working on since

2000 Selection. I don't have the energy to point out their fallacious statements point by point. It's depressing to see a post like this acting as though there are people here who having working for Verified Paper Ballot, Monitored their Polling Places and been Precinct Chairs and volunteers....on an on.

It's just too depressing to answer something like that... but hope someone else will.

[BeFree]

75. I think of it this way

Look at far we have come. Back in say, 2003, the small crew that alerted these boards about the coming train wreck, was ignored and laughed at.

Well, we stuck to it, always coming up with facts, and look where we are today. The whole board is aware and talking about the diebolds! Progress!

[suziedemocrat]

110. I worked as a poll worker in 2004 - didn't have any "control".

I couldn't tell if the counts the machines spit out at the end of the night were correct or not. I just remember a lot of WWII era vets saying they were there to vote Bush out of office, yet Bush still won by a large margin in our location. I know that doesn't mean the machines were rigged or counting incorrectly, but how would I know? There is no paper trail.

So the OP has several problems.

1) No one who is worried about election fraud is saying "don't bother."

2) Being a poll worker won't prevent fraud if the machines are rigged.

Now, if we get on election boards and help pick the method of vote counting, and help decide how many machines to put at each location - I DO think that would help. And I guess starting as a poll worker might be a good first step in that direction.

[foo_bar]

126. the problem is, lots of people are suggesting "don't bother"

But not in those exact words: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2415828#2419947

About your second point, I agree that being a poll worker doesn't automatically stop fraud (given insidious electronic means), but boots on the ground certainly help with assessing/catching it. At the very least, getting involved at the local level makes it harder to pull off sleights of hand, and effects infinitely more good than all of the We Are Doomed posts combined.

[quinnox]

10. they are really working overtime

The closer to the election the more threads about how the election is already stolen, and how people shouldn't vote or if they do it won't count anyway. *yawn* Probably not all are nervous freepers but they are tiresome, put all of them on ignore is what I suggest.

[Tiggeroshii]

11. Your vote might not count...

But if you don't vote, it DEFINITELY won't!

Vote, help at the precinct level, and do everything you can before and after the election to make sure every vote will eventually be counted.

[KharmaTrain]

12. It's Who Counts The Votes...

A lot of the Democratic problems were from years of neglect on the local level...paying more attention to national races than the local ones and being outflanked on county boards and then state governments by Repugnicans. With this begat the Katherine Harris' and Blackwells and others who controlled the voting apparateus. In many areas the Repugnicans made sure to take over county voting boards as well and with it come the ability to make and change the rules. It's what makes it possible for one precinct to get 20 machines while a busier one down the block (Democrat) gets 2. It's how Repugnicans became Democratic poll judges since the local party didn't have enough people to man these precincts. Terry McAuliffe's legacy was of losing elections cause there was little ground operation...everything was run by DC consultants. Things are a bit different this year.

The golden rule applies...ye who has the gold, makes the rules. The more state houses Democrats control, the more Democrats elected to county and local boards, the stronger the party becomes, the better our odds of gaining control of the machines and make the needed reforms.

I live in Chicago...well known for its "clean elections" (:sarcasm:) and why is that? Cause the Cook County Democratic Organization has controlled the County Board and Board of Elections forever. I still joke that my parents and grandparents vote and vote often. Inversely, the Repugnicans had a similar operation in DuPage county that would play chess with the Cook County machine on election night...each timing the release of returns to manipulate reporting of the results. In the past decade, Democrats moving into DuPage county and the fracturing of the Repugnican party has hurt that machine and a major reason a Tammy Duckworth stands a strong chance this year of winning.

Cheers...

[Skinner]

13. If anyone on this website claims that voting is useless...

...or if anyone uses this website to tell people not to vote, please click alert. We do not wish for our website to be used in order to suppress the Democratic vote.

(Note: Expressing concern about possible vote fraud is -- of course -- permitted here on DU. But doing anything to discourage people from voting is not at all appropriate.)

[woldnewton]

20. Can I also use the 'alert' button

to report people who claim that people who are trying to alert their citizens unaware of Diebold, Triad, & Sequoia are also saying 'don't bother to vote' for mischaracterization? For some reason, I'm quite tempted to try to report that sort of post right about now...

[galloglas]

40. I would sure second that...

Just like with HR 4844 (the Photo Voter ID Law), all those attacking the people trying to defend Democratic positions are getting pummelled.

The "Diebold is crooked" wing at DU, and elsewhere, are not counseling anthing that runs counter to Democratic values. Quite the opposite.

But when one asks them to document an example of what they claim is happening, they can't or won't.

So, show me where anyone says "Don't vote!" Just one Frickin' time!!

[Perky]

66. THE OP NEVER SAID THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read #63

[foo_bar]

89. nobody says "don't vote", but the implication is "why bother?"

This election WILL be stolen, and we WILL carry on toward fascism just as we have since the original coup in 2000.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2889960#2890239

Our elections are as much as sham as elections held in North Korea

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2889960#2890162

We live in a totalitarian state. Until Climate Change kills millions of Americans instead of thousands don't expect that to change.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2888035#2888197

It's a comforting theme on 11/3/2004, but a month before an election it's best described as 'learned helplessness'.

[woldnewton]

21. N/M I went ahead and clicked 'alert' for this post.

I find it nothing short of slanderous.

[RobertSeattle]

14. Thanks

[Mike Daniels]

15. Also, if there's a problem at the voting station, report and document it

I'm not alone in casting a doubting eye or ear to complaints that aren't documented or substantiated with some proof.

It's all too easy to say "the machine kept showing I wanted to vote for "X" vs. "Y". If that's what's happening then freaking make a stink at the voting station and make a supervisor watch you cast your vote or get someone to capture visual evidence of potential problems.

[galloglas]

41. There is ample evidence of that sort

Enough to have the Carter-baker hearings, such as they were.

And continually since 2004. Please educate yourself. DU has an entire Discussion Group devoted to Election Reform.

You would do well to go there and read.

[SmokingJacket]

18. Weird, I keep seeing posts like this one, but have yet to see a

"don't even bother to vote" post.

It is possible to believe that our election system is in *deep deep shit* but to also -- and vigorously -- support voting. I'm an elections inspector, for instance.

[woldnewton]

19. UM... EXCUSE ME!!!!!!!!????????????

I am one who is *VERY* concerned about Diebold, but I *DO NOT* suggest that people should not vote. If anything, I am suggesting that people vote Democratic in OVERWHELMING NUMBERS.

I take much exception to the characterization of those of us who are warning the rest of us about Diebold's shenanigans.

[Perky]

24. And I am not Tar and feathering a group

I have concerns about Diebiold as well. All I saying is that to insure fair elections you have to get involved in the process and make sure it works the way it is supposed to. I never said that all those who fear DieboldD are saying voting does not matter.

[slackmaster]

23. Scrutiny of Diebold and other electronic voting systems serves a purpose

It's in everyone's interests to see that voting systems are auditable and worthy of public trust.

Proclaiming "Stolen Election!" or "Diebold!" for every LOST election, unless backed up with solid evidence, enables avoiding the reality that our "products" aren't selling the way we'd like them to.

[Penndems]

25. I will be voting the Democratic ticket on November 7th, but whether or not

my vote is counted by the election captains and poll workers is another matter.

I found out just how inadequate touch-screen voting is during the Democratic primary here in Virginia. After tapping the stylus on my choices and submitting my ballot, a message came up saying that my vote wasn't recorded. I summoned a poll worker over, and explained to him what happened. After a five-minute wait during which time three other poll workers searched for the manual and asked me to recast my vote, I proceeded with my civic duty once again. Hopefully, it took the second time. I'll never know, because all I got was another message saying my vote had been recorded, and not a receipt stating it.

I've taken pride in participating in the democratic process since 1974. However, casting my vote via ESS or Diebold makes me feel more than a little ambivalent that it'll be counted.

Boy, do I miss those old voting lever machines. :)

[LoZoccolo]

26. I haven't seen evidence that they've used Diebold to fix the vote either.

I have seen things like inadequate polling facilities and people being taken off of the rolls when they shouldn't, but not tampering. The dubious state that it leave the results in, not being able to see how it tabulates, is a problem enough to get the machines thrown out, but as far as them actually having been used to fix the election, I have yet to see any evidence.

After the 2004 election when I would ask around about what the basic evidence was for stealing the election, I got a lot of "if you don't see you are blind" which led me to believe nobody had any but were afraid of looking disloyal or whatever.

I've also seen, as you mention, people saying the vote will be fixed but not getting involved in overseeing the election in any way (which citizens are called to do as volunteers). I rarely see any specific information on how to get involved as an activist, much less an election official.

[Perky]

30. Call the county election office

They are always looking for more workers. It is a day off from work. but the boss should count it the same way they count Jury Duty.

[galloglas]

43. The entire purpose of Election Fraud

You wrote:

"I have seen things like inadequate polling facilities and people being taken off of the rolls when they shouldn't, but not tampering."

If you will do your reading, you will find that Election Theft, properly done, leaves no trace.

This was even stated by our own government in a Security Advisory, issued in August, 2004.

And here we are, three weeks away, and it still hasn't sunk in.

GO VOTE! But just because Inspector Clouseau doesn't find problems, doesn'yt mean they are not there.

Be wary, be cautious, be ready, be skeptical.

But, most of all, be present and vote!

[LoZoccolo]

54. I am always told to do my reading.

A sharp activist is always ready with his or her argument.

[galloglas]

90. It is not my personal task to educate you, only to

ask that you have the coutesy to get on the same page as your "suppossed" political allies.

If you don't know the page, ask. It's not our job to win (reluctant) minds one at at time. Just go to the ER forum and read. Start anywhere. You'll be further ahead that than trying to find how much mastery I have of the subject.

Unless, of course, that was your purpose. But that would mean you are really... oh, never mind.

[LoZoccolo]

101. It's not your personal task to educate me...

...but then again, it's not my personal task to be educated.

Now, if you want people to be educated, you'd take responsibility for getting what you want.

[galloglas]

115. There a saying about leading a horse to water

You are that horse.

I'll settle for getting HCPBs, and not worry about whether you drink or not.

[LoZoccolo]

117. What? It's like you haven't been reading this whole sub-thread.

I tried for a long time for people to make a simple argument - not even go into details - but simply go into the basis for an election-stealing argument. But I said this already.

The entire "2004 was stolen" movement is based on using arrogance as a mask for incompetence. There are good arguments for 2000, well laid-out and documented, so I believe that. 2004 seems to be an entirely different story. Just the fact that people don't seem to be motivated enough to argue for it makes me wonder if they believe it themselves.

You have to understand, as well, if you want me to know the case, I'll have to be able to pass it on to more people for it to make a difference. I can't do that unless the case holds up to scrutiny. I will not subject people to arrogance as a mask for incompetence because my credibility is important; I need it for a bunch of other things.

[galloglas]

122. Then I suggest you do your homework, like I did.

If you have looked at election 2000, and believe it stolen per your remark "There are good arguments for 2000, well laid-out and documented, so I believe that.", then you obviously have NOT taken the time to scrutinize the election of 2002 or 2004.

If your "credibility is important; I need it for a bunch of other things.", I suggest you look into the massive evidence at hand, as in the ER Forum.

I can tell you this. Even if I "convinced" you that 2004 was stolen; that EV was not only insecure, but likely unconstitutional on its face; you would still have no credibility with those you might convince.

Which, if you come to believe in the theft of 2006, is more compelling evidence to those to whom your credibility is important?

A) "Some guy on the board at DU convinced me this is the case,"

or

B) "I have read the material, subjected it to logic, and find the arguments compelling".

You either are familiar with what happened, or you are not. My personal arguments will not hold one ounce of weight with people juding your own rep.

If you seriously took the time to master the material and were current on the existing problems (i.e., Judge Hoffman's decision that the House of Representatives decides, via the Speaker, who is elected, not the voters) then I am sure others might help you get a better grasp faster.

But "Prove It!" statements, asked by those unfamiliar with the basics, is a waste of your time and ours. And the time of those whom you wish to think you credible.

"2004 seems to be an entirely different story. Just the fact that people don't seem to be motivated enough to argue for it makes me wonder if they believe it themselves."

Arguing is one thing. Totally educating someone, from the ground up, is futility. There are better ways to spend our time. As in answering specifics, of people who have bothered to read up on the issue, watch a DVD, or even read Rolling Stone (RFK, JR. covered it).

So, I ask, "What do you presntly know, one way or the other, about this? Have you read any books, seen DVDs, been to conferences, done anything?"

You've given me no reason to assume that, as far as the Election Thefts go, you are anything more than a "tabula rasa". If you've know more interest than that, you waste our time.

In the time you have taken posting ti this thread, you could have watched "Stealing America: Vote by Vote". If you had done so, and had good faith questions, people would have answered them. If not here, then at ER.

In "I will not subject people to arrogance as a mask for incompetence because my credibility is important;", you seem to be saying that you won't pass on information to your acquaintances until you, personally, are satisfied by one other person's (my) arguments.

I don't know why you are more important that the other 300 million in America, but the above seems to imply that you think so. You want me to be your teacher, from the ground up, and you want me to "disprove my incompetence" to you, before you will accept any arguments?

I'm sorry. But your friends would be fools if they took your word, or mine, for the issue anyway. And, you already seem to have made up your mind anyway. You've not asked one single question about the merits, or proofs, of the Election Fraud. Which makes me think you are totally unaware of any of the proof.

If you have legitimate questions, take them to ER.

If you just want to pop in with "I don't believe that!" or, "I have to retain my credibility, so convince me you are not incompetent, for my benefit, before I tell my friends", you are being presumptuous.

Methinks you are not interested in any truths, methinks you are interested only in goading someone into performing some dog and pony show at your beck and call.

Sorry, you asked the wrong person.

[LoZoccolo]

125. Hundreds of election reform people who hijack threads at DU...

...can't seem to do for 2004 what one man, Greg Palast, did for 2000.

Totally educating someone, from the ground up, is futility.

Someone could write a concise article over a weekend which could be spread to millions of copies within a week on the Internet. The 2004 meme spreads due to the expectation that someone out there has the evidence buried in a massive load, even if the adherents can't present it.

[LoZoccolo]

102. P.S. I did used to go there.

I tried to find evidence of Diebold hijinx and no one could give me any. But they could sure sling insults at people who just wouldn't believe them.

[OnTheOtherHand]

109. why don't you get on the same page as us?

Some folks at ER have been insisting ever since election 2004 that they know Kerry won by millions of votes. But the arguments aren't there. TIA crap gets posted from time to time, and no one is willing or able to defend it. Why can't we make a reality-based commitment that we don't insist on what we can't support?

TIA is over there right now (via the magic of copy and paste) claiming 99% certainty that the Dems will win the House, prior to fraud. That is embarrassing. Why is no one embarrassed? I am embarrassed.

[LoZoccolo]

118. "no one is willing or able to defend it"

And I really don't believe many people understand it, either. There's been a few mathemeticians who argue with him, but the chorus of "Thank you! Thank you for this brilliant work!" actually starts taking away credibility as it starts to show me that people will pretend to accept things they don't even comprehend.

Greg Palast made a good case that there was 2000 election manipulation. Why can't the 2004 people make one that tries to compel rather than confuse?

[OnTheOtherHand]

121. I think the basics are simple, plausible, and wrong

Certainly I don't think that TIA deliberately sets out to obfuscate -- although the combination of confidence and unintelligibility does seem to evoke a lot of posts in the vein of "I don't know what you just said, but it sure makes me feel good."

Freeman's work is very readable, but makes essentially the same mistakes plus a few different ones. It's just frustrating (all the more because of course these folks aren't wrong about everything, but they seem to have no clue how to tell the difference).

[Imagevision]

48. The dude from Princeton proved a hack could be done in under a minute!

a few weeks back he was on CNN and MSNBC

[LoZoccolo]

53. I saw that.

I saw the thing from years ago with Bev Harris and Howard Dean too. I would say both examples are a compelling case for doing away with black box voting machines.

But that's not what I was arguing against.

[kster]

82. I haven't seen evidence that they DIDN''T use Diebold to fix the vote

So where does that leave us? Right where they want us, Questioning each other, and not the secret vote couting machines.

In case anyone wants to accuse me, you Heard it hear, GOTV, GOTV, GOTV.

[LoZoccolo]

83. "Right where they want us, Questioning each other"

Yeah, but that's your fault.

[kster]

86. I'll go away if they can

show me the votes being counted, but You and I both know the they can't and won't.


GOTV, GOTV, GOTV.................

[galloglas]

91. Nope. It's your and the OP writers

neither of you has yet withdrawn the allegation that "you people" are counseling Democrats not to vote.

It's not true.

Either swallow you f'in pride, admit you went off half-cocked with your allegations (perhaps you just don't "keep up" with things), or run the very severe risk that other posters are going to mistake your intransigence as something else, entirely!

[LoZoccolo]

100. When did I say anything about that? n/t

[Zodiak]

27. Worrying about e-voting is a legitimate concern

and everyone on this board should be mindful of that issue.

Having said that, the mention of the issue is not a trump card to end discussion of other electoral issues (like polls, support, activism, phonebanking, etc.). IT especially should not be used to discourage voters.

[WI_DEM]

28. I understand the problems with diebold and counting every vote, but

what gets me is if there is any good news given on a thread such as a poll showing democrats surging, ect somebody will dampen the spirits with post or posts about diebold will decide the election.

[kster]

88. There is no choice until the problem is

solved and the winner AND the loser can have confidence that the vote was counted correctly, so far that is not happening. An eight year old knows better, both sideS NEED to see the votes BEING counted or it is not a contest (period)

GOTV, GOTV,GOTV............

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

29. ONCE AND FOR ALL.....

Just because there are many of us extremely concerned, in no way does that mean people shouldn't vote. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be actively involved if they can.

All it means, is that if the election results end up with the repubs remaining in power, all the involvement and voting in the world might not be enough to make a difference.

We'll know on November 7 whether that is the case.

[alcibiades_mystery]

32. So, if we win, it's clean...if we lose, they cheated

:crazy:

[galloglas]

44. The direct answer is "Possibly!"

We could also lose because we campaign badly, or don't GOTV.

Watch the polls, watch the exit polls, but most of all, GO VOTE!

Worry about the WTF? after the election is over.

[kster]

93. When we win, the Dems better make

the vote theft machine mess, FIRST on their agenda, because right now, most that understand the vote theft machines, want answers, as to why we have sytems thru out the US that have ZERO paper. That makes ZERO sense, thats just for STARTERS.

I'm ready to start a revolt even if the Dems win over these machines, its complete and utter nonsense that they Dems and Repubs have alowed this to happen, We both know that.



GOTV, GOTV, GOTV..............

[garybeck]

119. NO. Have some respect for the people who have been working on this

there is real EVIDENCE it was stolen. Maybe you should actually look at it before you say people are just jumping to conclusions.

[alcibiades_mystery]

130. You're the one jumping to conclusions

I've looked at the evidence, and I'm not persuaded. We just plain old lost the last election (2004...2000 WAS stolen, but not by machines). It sucks. Yes. But that's the way things roll. Maybe we can win the next one if all those people I'm supposed to have respect for stopped their bellyaching and started devoting as much energy to GOTV as they do to their supposed "research."

[garybeck]

136. What evidence have you looked at?

Have you read Conyers report? Have you read Mark Crispin Miller's book? Or Steve Freeman's book? Or Robert Kennedy's articles in Rolling Stone? Have you seen any of the films? Do you know about the affidavits of sworn testimony of fraud? There is a TON of evidence and I'm sure you haven't looked at the vast majority of it.

There just is NO evidence to support Bush won. It is a mathematical impossibility. The only thing that says Bush won is the official results. Nothing else. And with secret vote counting on over 80% of the votes, we know why the official results do not match. It was rigged.

As long as folks like you continue to bury their heads in the sand, we're going to keep marching to the polls, and wondering why we keep losing when all the pre and exit polls show otherwise.

[OnTheOtherHand]

143. I guess it's useful to recognize actual disagreement here

Some folks just bellyache about election integrity issues; some folks actually do work on them, and many of those also work on GOTV or other issues. However, a lot of the folks who work on the problem believe things about election theft in 2004 that you and I don't believe.

So, the divide between people who are convinced that 2004 was stolen and those who don't think it was isn't a divide between people who gripe and people who work -- although from some of the throwaway lines about election theft, one might conclude otherwise.

I've read Mark Crispin Miller's book (among others), and honestly, I don't understand why he thinks 2004 was stolen -- I don't know what he thinks his evidence is. I'm pretty sure he doesn't understand how anyone could read his book honestly and not come to his conclusions. Same planet, different worlds.

[hpot]

152. Florida Vendor Map 2004

Nope nothing to see here folks. Just move along and don't worry about the Republican vote companies counting the majority of votes in Florida. We can trust them to count our votes accurately. :sarcasm:


http://recountflorida.com/ufed/map.php

[kimmerspixelated]

31. I believe in your passion, and I think you are right.

However, I think most people are just very upset about the possible outcome, but probably never meant they wouldn't try to at least vote. Not voting at all would be horrible. Because it looks so damned good for the Dems winning this time, I think that Karl Rove and friends will stop at nothing, and I mean nothing, to insure that they are not going to jail eventually by way of a Dem. ruled Congress! They, in their slithering ways, could fix any well watched and monitored election from anywhere, anyplace. But, I'm hoping with all my heart that they are not swift enuf with their memory cards, that huge numbers jam the whole system b4 they can FIx it!!

[ScreamingMeemie]

33. Unfortunately the same group of Republican Hens has been in

charge of that for years here in my precinct. Nice thought though. I'll stick to campaigning for our local County Commissioner candidate. :thumbsup:

[bigmonkey]

35. I see part of this as a natural emotional reaction.

If you believe that the voting is rigged, and you've been trying to convince others, now is the time when you would be the most discouraged. Why? Because if anything was going to be done about it structurally, it would have had to have been before now. Now it's too late to change the machines or do anything but GOTV and cross your fingers, so now is exactly when there would be a cri du coeur from some. There are also, probably, those who are using this as an opportunity to sabotage Democratic GOTV. Both are likely happening at the same time.

I'm still working on GOTV myself, and I think I'm probably going to take time off for elections this round. But, as someone who has been trying to convince others about the new, electronic election fraud issues, this past 4 years has been a real lesson in the deep blindness of those who will not see.

To encourage people like me, people working on election fraud who are, just like you, activists deeply concerned about the recent blows to democratic government, could you please answer two questions:

1) When is the proper time to discuss this crisis, if a warning just before the election is inappropriate?
2) Will you finally help work for election reform if this election seems clearly stolen too?

[Penndems]

36. Check out this thread, Perky:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2412686&mesg_id=2412686

Not the sort of thing that gives most people peace of mind when they're casting their respective ballots.

Voting is never a "worthless endeavor", but Diebold, ESS and the Bush Administration certainly treat it that way.






(edited for additional text)

[galloglas]

37. You have a cite for this??

You said:
"Telling pelople their votes won't be counted is playing into the GOPs hands."

You have cites for this on the DU board?

Even a moderator has torn up the cautionary posts, at least second hand posts, of TIA and Land Shark. Even said (my words), "If you are not advising DUers not to vote, how else is it to be read?"

That answer is, "Keep you F**king eyes open! Don't trust Diebold or the other machine vendors." It is NOT to fail to vote!!!!

Your advice, though appropriate, is about two years too late to benefit anyone now.

And, in keeping with *your* and *that moderator's* reading of the posts about Diebold, I could read yours as "Just kick the football, Charlie Brown. Go Ahead!!"

But I'm not that uncharitable about your motives. I would hope you would desist reading other motives into the posts of others.

At least, until you are ready to call all of the many people in this nation (and at DU) as "Conspiracy Theorists", and defend the Administration's assurances about the honesty of the Cheat-o-Matics and black box voting and counting.

So, to clarify, you are not claiming that "there is no danger. Nothing to see here. Move along!", are you?

If not, stop reading the cautions as some message to fail to vote. That isn't the message. The message is "Wise up. Do your research. STUDY the claims of rigged voting (as soon as you can) and keep it in mind when (if) you still have a vote to cast in TWO YEARS.

[FogerRox]

107. Please try the search feature. I have counter posted on at

least 3 occassions in the last month. Use my Screen name, you will find something. IIRC the most common is "but they own/have the machines"

[Cleita]

42. Who is saying this besides you?

You folks who insist that voting is a worthless endeavor because the GOP controls the apparatus....are missing the obvious solution.

As far as trying to get in where you can observe things, many do try. Many of us volunteer to be poll workers. Those of us who can't aren't allowed to lurk around the polls to watch what's going on. We can't lurk around the County Clerk's office to watch them count the absentee ballots and if they count them.

There seems to be no double bookkeeping entries to find errors in the counts. No one, who can do anything about it like elected officials and election workers, want to do anything about it no matter how many times we write them and ask. I know because I have been doing this since the 2000 election and yet nothing has changed.

So accurate and transparent elections would solve the problem, machines or no machines, yet no one seems to be able to get anyone from either party to do anything meaningful about making the elections transparent and accurate.

However, this doesn't mean that people won't vote because of this. It's only the apathetic and single issue voters who stay away from the polls. Many single issue voters who are anti-gay will probably stay away this year too, but everyone else who is interested in voting will vote anyway even if we are going to be keeping our fingers crossed that our votes will be counted accurately.

[freedomchips]

45. Well said!

please check this out: http://www.geocities.com/clarksapples/UndoBush.html

[Imagevision]

46. If a paper trail was provided this post wouldn't be necessary...

[demobabe]

52. This is simply not true.

We need a paper trail, yes, but even more so, we need to ensure all votes are counted.

Otherwise, the only good use for a paper trail is for wiping your butt.

[Imagevision]

58. If paper trails weren't an issue, GOP'ers wouldn't be fighting the issue

if you and 1000 others voted for Bugs Bunny out of 1500 voters and 500 votes were cast for Elmer Fudd, yet the machine is showing, 1200 votes for Fudd and 300 votes cast Bugs? A paper trailed receipts could verify who voted for who and when/where the "glitch" occured

[demobabe]

150. Of course it's an issue. But it isn't THE issue.

Requiring voter verified paper ballots is a seriously big issue. We need this, yes. And yes, of course Republicans like the idea of no way to verify elections. Understood.

But equally important is making sure votes are actually COUNTED (and recounted if necessary), and that every American has the right AND ABILITY to vote.

It's no fun to see that 1000 votes were cast for Bugs and 500 cast for Fudd...
and then you look at the machine and it says 1000 for bugs and 500 for Fudd...
and then the ballots and machine tapes go into a courthouse, and the next morning you find that there was a "recount" with the court doors locked.

Now suddenly they say a machine in Carrotville was malfunctioning and the real vote is 1200 Fudd and 1000 bugs. Wait a minute, you say: there were only 1500 voters, and now we have 2200 votes, and there were only 200 people voting in Carrotville. Something is wrong! Recount!

So we go to the court, and demand a recount. Judges say, no, you have to provide proof there is a problem. You say "let me open the ballot box and recount."

They say no, you can't open the box.

Bugs threatens to take it through the court system, but Fudd's party dominates all the courts right up to the State Supreme Court. No way Bugs will prevail, so he concedes.

Fudd wins the election, 1200 to 1000 votes.

Think it's not possible? I've got video of a real election in a State Governor's race where exactly this happened.

[lastliberalintexas]

134. I can't believe it took 46 freaking posts for someone

to state the obvious. Maybe the OP is lucky enough to not vote on electronic machines and thus doesn't understand the paperless problems? I can't even verify that my vote was registered, much less for whom. :shrug:

[Moloch]

50. Thank you so much.

Kicked & Recommended!

[demobabe]

51. There is no obvious solution because we have more than just one problem.

Voter fraud isn't just a matter of Diebold machines or electronic voting - it's a whole span of issues that are not going to be simply solved. Period.

Vote fraud has been going on since the first elections where cavemen counted rocks for votes and it is going to continue as long as there are elections.

The best we can do is to be as involved as possible on ALL LEVELS and demand as much transparency and laws to ensure EVERY vote is counted EVERYWHERE. There is never a reason to NOT vote, and "bitching" about machines or the process shouldn't be discouraged, either.

When there are lines for blocks to vote, this is vote fraud.

When vote machines arrive to polling locations late, this is vote fraud.

When vote machines (electronic, optical scan, or any other voting method) in some areas work better than machines in other areas, this is vote tampering and fraud.

When election results are changed in the middle of the night in locked courthouses, this is vote fraud.

When courts do not allow recounts for whatever reason, this is vote fraud.

When provisional and mail-in ballots are not counted because the voting district only counts them in the event of a close election, this is a form of election tampering as well.

It isn't just Diebold, but that's our pet name for it - it's all these things.

We deserve to have our votes counted - every single one - in every single race. We should NEVER shut up about this, and we should NEVER stop voting.

So VOTE, VOTE, VOTE and KEEP DEMANDING TRANSPARENCY IN THE VOTING PROCESS AND FOR ALL VOTES TO BE COUNTED!

[Peace Patriot]

55. I'm one of the yellers, but please don't accuse me of trying to suppress

the vote. Voting rights worker for Martin Luther King, Alabama, 1965. 40 years a loyal Democratic Party voter, supporter and volunteer. And I started yelling about this on Nov. 3, 2004. Not yesterday.

So listen up. In 2002, the biggest crooks in the Anthrax Congress, Tom Delay and Bob Ney (both now indicted and resigned in disgrace), abetted by corporatist 'Democrat' Christopher Dodd, engineered the so-called "Help America Vote Act"--a bill that would result in Bushite electronic voting corporations gaining control of our elections by means of TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code in all the electronic voting machines and central tabulators--and sold it to the Congress as reform. They then fast-tracked this horror with $3.9 billion in funding. The funding, the unregulated lavish lobbying, the ignorance of election officials about electronics, and all sorts of other factors--including the mind-boggling silence of our own Party leaders (fear? corruption?)--spread these new voting systems all over the country. The main two corporate beneficiaries are as follows:

DIEBOLD: Until recently, headed by Wally O'Dell, a Bush-Cheney campaign chair and major fundraiser (a Bush "Pioneer," right up there with Ken Lay), who promised in writing to "deliver Ohio's electoral votes to Bush-Cheney in 2004"; and

ES&S: A spinoff of Diebold (similar computer architecture), initially funded by rightwing billionaire Howard Ahmanson, who also gave one million dollars to the extremist 'christian' Chalcedon Foundation (which touts the death penalty for homosexuals, among other things). Diebold and ES&S have an incestuous relationship; they are run by two brothers, Bob and Todd Urosevich.

These are the people who "counted" 80% of the nation's votes in 2004, under a veil of corporate secrecy. That's how fast the HAVA funding worked to corrupt our voting system nationwide. It's even more entrenched now.

Also, SEQUOIA: The third major election theft industry player, which hired Republican Bill Jones, former Calif Secretary of State, and his chief aide, Alfie Charles, to peddle their machines--in an outstanding example of one of the highly corrupt practices fostered by HAVA-- "revolving door" employment.

------------

Trusting our elections to these corporations is INSANITY. It's like trusting logging corporations to protect fish and birds and water quality. Dumb beyond belief.

I won't go into the "paper trail" business. Suffice it to say that our elections have been rendered non-transparent and unverifiable, and, in many cases, not even recountable (should anyone have the moxy and the funds to try to get a recount.) Some states have NO audit requirement at all. The best--the best!--have a 1% audit--completely inadequate, in this high-speed, invisible, secretive, and highly manipulable environment.

Why vote in these conditions? 1) Because turnout CAN overcome the machine advantage to Bushites, warmongers and/or corporatists, in some cases. 2) Because over-stealing (flipping obvious Dem wins) might lose them their election theft capability for future purposes, so they might be cautious in some cases. 3) Because honest votes enable election analysts and reformers (many of whom are on the case this time) to FIND the "smoking gun"; And finally, 4)--and most importantly--because we should NEVER GIVE UP ON OUR RIGHT TO VOTE--NEVER!

Did I say that loudly enough?: *NEVER!* No matter what! WE. WILL. NOT. CONCEDE. OUR. RIGHT. TO. VOTE!

It is our birthright. It is the means by which we exercise our sovereignty as a people. Without it, we do not have a democracy. And recovering that right must be our first priority, while we still have the chance--which I think we still do--but it may be a short-lived window of opportunity.

-----

OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM, WHICH NOW INCLUDES DIEBOLD/ES&S'S ABILITY TO DICTATE ELECTION RESULTS

Before I talk about the current, in-progress rebellion that ordinary voters have started, against the rigged voting machines--the ABSENTEE BALLOT protest, which has grown huge--I want to discuss another probem, raised upthread: Why do Bushites bother with electioneering? --when it's all rigged in their favor?

Corporate fascists influencing our elections has been going on for some time. They didn't get direct control of the vote counting until recently--and after a long period of erosion of our political system, including lobbying and buying politicians, TV-izing our political life (at great profit to the 5 rightwing billionaire CEOS who control it all), and many other degradations of our political system. All that is still in place. It doesn't just go away because they can steal votes directly and invisibly. AND--importantly--a political hack has to get into position to be Diebolded into office. He/she has to have SOME support--and some real votes--to make it all look good. They can't just invent an election out of nothing (--not yet anyway; although the recent machine flipover of the 4 Ohio election reform initiatives--from predicted 60/40 wins to 60/40 LOSSES on election day--comes close to that kind of capability).

So it's kind of a naive or simplistic question--why do they bother? Not far into the future, they may not have to bother. It will all be invented by TV and electronic voting machines with SECRET programming. But right now--our current window of opportunity to change it--we have an election system still composed of many elements, including Bushite-controlled electronic voting machines. Money still counts. Volunteers still count. Speeches, debates, rallies. All the forms of democracy must be maintained. Bear in mind also that Hitler himself needed to APPEAR to be adhering to legal forms and evidences of popular support in his rise to power. Everything was TECHNICALLY legal. It's the "boiling frogs" scenario of gradual takeover. If you turn the heat up slowly, the "frogs" don't notice. (I'm not sure if we're looking at a Nazi plot, or a Corporate Plot--I tend to believe it's the latter, not the former, for whatever comfort that gives.) Anyway, the APPEARANCE of democracy is what we are looking at, when Bushites in particular campaign.

They WANT us to give up. To not field candidates at all. To not raise sufficient money. To dissolve into jelly on the issues. To be intimidated by the war profiteering corporate news monopolies. To fall for the illusion that we are the minority. To not be vigilant at the polling places. To not protect our black brothers and sisters and others from vote suppression tactics. To not add up the numbers afterwards, and analyze it as well as we can. To not find the "smoking guns." To not challenge suspicious results. And to STOP VOTING.

That's the best reason of all to vote. The fascists don't want you to!

And when we lose to their rigged machines, they want us to give in to powerlessness and demoralization. And that's the chief reason that we must be honest with people and tell them to truth about this election system. Everybody thinks somebody ELSE must be voting for war, for torture, for mass murder and grand theft by this Junta. They DON'T KNOW the reason these things are happening--why there is no balance, how things can have gotten this far. They think OTHER Americans are nuts. They think democracy has gone wacko.

It's better to know the truth. You can't fix it, if you don't know what's broken.

I think we are looking at all this--our political system, recent past elections, and the fix we're in--from the wrong end of the telescope. For instance, when Karl Rove arranges for an issue, say, gay marriage, the purpose is not so much to convince anyone on that issue as it is to have a "talking point" for AFTER the election, to "explain" how they "won." He's placed these little newsurds into the newsstream all along the way--gay marriage, brown immigrants, Zarqawi getting whacked, etc., and, a very important one to pay attention to, their get-out-the-vote campaign "in the churches." These are all part of the pre-written narrative for post-election "explanations." In 2004, there was zero evidence of any Republican success at INCREASED voter turnout 'in the churches." In fact, all the evidence goes the other way. For instance, the Democratic grass roots effort resulted in a blowout success for the Dems in new voter registration, by nearly 60/40, in 2004. But if you have war profiteering corporate news monopolies willing to repeat YOUR "talking points" after the election, and not interested in investigating the facts, you can get away with statements like Rove's after 2004 (--it was their "invisible" get-out-the-vote campaign "in the churches"). They recently laid this one down again (I think it was Rove, maybe Cheney).

So, with Bush & Co., the lies never stop coming. And they invent them way in advance. This doesn't explain how they win, but it does explain how Bush and Cheney, with a 30% to 40% approval rating (--and one in that range for two years now) could be confidently predicting victory in November. Some people think they're out of touch with reality. I don't. I think they just know that their buds at Diebold and ES&S are working hard in their favor.

Whether Diebold and ES&S can overcome the vast discontent in this country--or will risk their future control by obvious thefts--I really don't know. But that they have that capability, and that the Bushites have more than a little motive, are without question.

It is essential that we face these facts. And that we don't give up, no matter what happens Nov. 7.

They may steal it outright, in which case, as in 2004, we must recover our spirits and fight on. They do NOT have the majority in this country. We MUST remember that. And election reform--still doable at the state/local level--must be our first priority.

They may steal it partially--say, put together a combo of Bushite Democrats (like the ones who voted for torture and suspension of habeas corpus) and outright Bushites, with a slight edge to the Democrats, to make it look like a Dem victory but which really is not a Dem majority. The real Dems--the representatives of the real majority--will continue to be outvoted. (I don't think they'll risk the committee chair changes, but they might--say, in one house.) In that case--an apparent Dem victory, but a lingering Bushite majority, we must be very savvy, and CONTINUE to work on election reform, as a first priority. There shouldn't be ANY Bushite Democrats. The sentiment in the country--going way back to before the war on Iraq--is anti-Iraq-war (with a whopping 84% opposed to any US participation in a widened Mideast war), anti-torture (63%! --May '04), and anti-Bush everything, in big numbers, over a long period of time. How could there be a pro-Bush Repub/Dem majority in Congress after all this? You tell me. Election reform is a MUST. Priority #1.

There is a third possibility--that a real split has occurred between the Bushites and the Corporatists and we are about to see the return of Corporate Rule sans the outright fascism of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld. (--could be that the Corporatists are working with our more loyal members of the military and intelligence communities to reign this gang in; now that they've looted us blind and put us in our place, the Bushites are really, really bad for global free trade; they've alienated all of So. America, for instance). And this is the only scenario in which Diebold/ES&S might back off in most races, and let the people speak--on war, on torture, on spying, and lack of financial accountability. They figure we'll be grateful for mere Corporate Rule after all this. And that's where our Party was at, back in 2000 and before: the Party of global free piracy. I don't see it changing much, unless we can restore transparent elections sometime soon. Diebold/ES&S (s)elects Democrats too, you know. They control ALL election results (except in NY, ORE and a few other places.)

In this third scenario...you got it! ELECTION REFORM! The one MUST-DO! If we don't have transparent elections, we don't have a democracy.

And ANY elections that include private corporations "counting" the votes with TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code are NOT elections. They are tyranny!

----------------------------------------

THE ABSENTEE BALLOT PROTEST

This is the one strategy by which we can get rid of these rigged voting machines quickly and peacefully. DON'T VOTE ON THEM!

Simple as that. BOYCOTT the machines. How can state/local election officials defend these expensive, insecure, extremely insider hackable, electronic voting machines, if NOBODY WILL VOTE ON THEM?

It's been building up since 2002 (the onset of the rigged machines)--doubling and tripling of the Absentee Ballot vote, the choice of ordinary citizens and voters. Now it's a flood--it's up to 50% to 60% of the vote in some places.

Read about how the Boston Tea Party happened, and be inspired. It was ORDINARY PEOPLE who started it--by BOYCOTTING the tea, because King George was giving an unfair advantage to the East India Company! THEN Samuel Adams got involved. (Samuel, where are you?)
http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/E/teaparty/bostonxx.htm

People DON'T TRUST THE MACHINES. They want a PAPER BALLOT, HAND-COUNTED. This is their wish. This is their message. And they only need some leadership with some P.R. skills--say, leadership from the election reform movement--to AMPLIFY their message to election officials. To focus it. To make news media SEE it. And to USE it to put pressure on election officials, and FORCE them to reform this system, or resign.

There are other reasons to vote by Absentee Ballot. It is the ONLY guarantee that you will be able to cast a vote in this election. Voting machne "breakdowns"--whether by accident or design--have become pandemic. People show up to vote. The machines are "down." And they can't vote. And many states have no provision for this. You go home, disenfranchised. Other states--for instance, California, where elections are now run by Diebold shill and Schwarzenegger appointee Bruce McPherson--have given permission to corrupt county officials to supply 'PROVISIONAL' ballots, not real paper ballots, when the machines "break down" or when (as we are supposed to have the right to do in Calif) people request a paper ballot.

"Provisional" ballots were designed by the crooks who wrote the "Help America Vote Act" (Tom Delay, Bob Ney, Christopher Dodd) TO BE TOSSED. We saw this pervasive abuse of "provisional" ballots in Ohio. It's how George Bush got to stay in the White House (--or the final dirty trick of many).

DO NOT COUNT on being able to vote on election day. Get your Absentee Ballot NOW--if you still can.

-----

**In Calif., the deadline for REQUESTING an Absentee Ballot is OCTOBER 31. Still plenty of time. (The Calif. deadline for registering to vote is Oct. 23, one week earlier.) Check local rules for other states. Most states have some form of AB voting. If not, do what you can to vote on paper--and protest loudly at non-transparent vote counting and lack of a choice.**

-----

TURN-OUT: To those who say, "it's all rigged--why vote?", we should be saying, "Join the PROTEST to UN-rig the system! Help us bust the machines--vote by Absentee Ballot!" No more excuse not to vote.

Absentee Ballot voting, to help UN-rig the system, takes the passivity out of voting--that feeling of hope against hope that maybe this time it will come out better--and turns voting into a positive PROTEST.

It won't get us accurate vote counts this time--nothing can--but it may save the future.

[demobabe]

57. Bravo, PP... this should be it's own thread

I agree with most of what you said except for the Absentee Ballot stuff.

DON'T vote absentee. There is no way to confirm your vote was counted or even received. Additionally, many places don't bother counting absentee ballots or provisional ballots if the consider the race not to be close. A lot of fraud goes on "in the margins" - the vote is tampered with JUST ENOUGH so a recount is deemed "unneccessary" because the vote wasn't within a certain percentage.

Your absentee or provisional ballot could be discarded in this kind of scenario - never counted.

Always vote at the poll on election day - on paper ballots if at all possible.

[Peace Patriot]

70. It's a PROTEST! A BOYCOTT! Bushite-controlled secret corporate vote

counting is UNACCEPTABLE. And it should not be tolerated--especially if there is an alternative by which we state our NON-COOPERATION with this rigged system.

What you are saying is that it's OKAY for people to vote on Bushite-controlled electronic machines, run on TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code, with highly corrupt sales to states benefitting Bushite corporations in the billions of dollars. OUR dollars. That's what's driving all this--money, the big electronics contracts by which they have corrupted our election officials, the money changing hands among Delay, Ney and Abramoff (whose offices this democracy-killing e-voting legislation was hatched in), and the billions and billions and billions of dollars to be made from having Bushites in office.

I don't understand that. How can you recommend it? The answer to mishandling of Absentee Ballot and other paper ballot votes is MORE Absentee Ballot votes and MORE paper ballot votes (--but NOT "provisional" ballots--those are easily tossed).

FLOOD election officials with MOUNTAINS of AB votes--then you create the scrutiny and oversight and interest to demand better handling and reform.

An Absentee Ballot is about as "safe" as an optiscan vote, so why CHOOSE to vote on a Bushite machine? Touchscreen and optiscan votes can EASILY be changed, by the millions, at the speed of light, without leaving a trace. This is NOT OKAY. This is tyranny. And we MUST stop it.

I really don't understand this argument that it's somehow "safer" to vote on such machines. Besides it being completely UNSAFE, it's an ENDORSEMENT of the rigged system--and we'll never get rid of it if people get sucked in like that. And anyway, I think you're going to find that about 50% to 60% of the voters in many places--and maybe all over the country--disagree with you. THEY are REBELLING against it.

NOBODY's saying we're going to get accurate vote counts, no matter how we vote. That is impossible in these highy rigged and corrupt conditions. But the least we can do is exhibit some dignity, and boycott the filthy things.

I respect your choice, and your thoughts. But I would ask you to reconsider your position, and think longer term. Just how long are we going to be up with these fascists choosing our candidates and (s)electing whom they please to loot our government, and torture and kill people?

And if American voters are at long last rebelling against this deliberately rigged electronic voting system, I say we should support them in every way we can, and make their protest MEAN SOMETHING in terms of action!

[demobabe]

149. No, I'm not advocating electronic voting machines

It is CLEAR they have the most potential for creating fraudulent results. No doubt about that.

But what I'm saying is that electronic voting machines aren't the SOLE problem with voting - we have a myriad of vote fraud issues that go all the way from the polling places on election day to the machines, the corporations that create and maintain those machines, to the potential for hanky panky with central tabulators (that affects optiscan votes too btw), and the courts that uphold decisions not to recount votes for various reasons (that just so happen to support the party of their leaning).

I keep seeing people say VOTE ABSENTEE! VOTE ON PROVISIONAL BALLOTS! and that's a fallacy, pure and simple.

I've voted both and later found my vote didn't count. I was told that they would only count the provisionals if the race was close enough for them to make a difference.

So you say get mountains of people to vote provisionally so they HAVE to count the vote? You're not going to get that to happen unless you employ a multimillion dollar pr campaign.

Meanwhile, Republicans know the Dems are promoting using provisional ballots and have a nice little clue of whose votes NOT to count: namely people who are die hard Dems who ALWAYS vote and WANT THEIR VOTE TO BE COUNTED SO BADLY that they'll follow the instructions to vote provisional. Guess what? You've just split yourself off into an easily identifiable demographic.

So we won't count your votes.

And it's quite possible had you voted on your HAVA-friendly paperless electronic voting machine, your vote would have been counted.

Or not.

It's a trick, pure and simple. House always wins, huh?

We need to find long term ways to revamp the election process to ensure ALL VOTES are counted, rather than have widespread panic a few weeks before every election like our current trend.

Meanwhile, vote, vote, VOTE!

[lastliberalintexas]

135. What is this paper ballot of which you speak?

:shrug:



And I'm not even one of the people who is very knowledgeable about the voter fraud issues, but I know I don't get no steeenken paper on which to vote. And that yes, the ES&S machines on which we in SE Texas are required to cast our votes have caused tons of problems.

[Perky]

The OP never suggested any Dem was trying to supress the vote.

I can't control what others say.

[galloglas]

92. Didn't you say "You people"??

[Perky]

64. The OP never suggested any Dem was trying to supress the vote.

I can't control what others say.

[Robeson]

68. Wish I could nominate your post for the Greatest Page....

...Bravo! :applause:

[LonelyLRLiberal]

71. PP - what can you tell us about how exit polling fits in with this picture

I recall that exit polling was/is blamed for suppressing turnout in Presidential election years when races on the east coast were being called before voting was finished on the west coast, but I also vaguely recall that there also were "explanations" offered as to why the actual votes in the disputed states like OH and FL were so different from exit polls.

Any light you can shed on this subject would be helpful in understanding this aspect. Seems exit polling should be pretty accurate as a means of at least identifying precincts where thievery is taking place.

[OnTheOtherHand]

113. PP doesn't know much about exit polls

although she has left a prodigious trail of posts in her wake nonetheless.

The national exit polls' target sample size per precinct is 100, which gives them about a 10% per-precinct margin of error (20 points on the difference between the leading candidates). Not a whole lot of help there. And that's just the theoretical margin if all goes well, as it often doesn't.

Exit polls have a long history of error, and as with other polling, one can never be sure why they were wrong. One good reason to think the 2004 exit polls don't point to e-voting hackery is that the discrepancies were largest in lever-machine precincts. (I don't say this is evidence that the DREs weren't hacked -- much less that they couldn't be -- but it's noteworthy in any case.) Another two are that the exit poll discrepancies don't correlate with changes from outcome in 2000, and with deviations from pre-election polls. They do correlate with other things that at least don't appear to have anything to do with election fraud: for instance, younger interviewers obtained larger discrepancies.

The experts mostly wrote off the exit polls as evidence of fraud anywhere between late 2004 and mid-2005, depending. They left a few of us behind to try to explain why. (Actually, we are self-selected masochists.) Nevertheless, it is theoretically possible for exit polls to provide supporting evidence of fraud nationwide, although the 2004 exit polls do not. It's less likely that they could do that at the precinct level.

[Peace Patriot]

120. LonelyLRLiberal, see www.TruthIsAll.net about the '04 exit polls.

I and many others dispute the entire '04 election, not just OH and FL. The exit polls, which were conducted by one polling organization--Edison/Mitofsky--hired by a consortium of all of the war profiteering corporate news monopolies--in fact showed a Kerry win by a 3% margin nationwide, late on election day, 11/2/04. Then there was a supposed computer crash in the reporting system, and, when it came back up, lo and behold, the exit polls had been dramatically CHANGED, and now said that Bush won. What they had done was to DOCTOR the exit polls--in impossible, absurd ways--to force the exit polls (Kerry won) to fit the results of Diebold/ES&S's secret vote counting formulae (Bush won).

In other countries, exit polls are used to check election numbers for fraud. They are used as a comparison, and if the exit polls differ significantly from the official totals, fraud is suspected. Not here. Here they ALTERED the exit polls to CONFORM TO the official results--which in this case were derived from a secret vote counting process, controlled by Diebold/ES&S. How they did it was by mixing the Diebold/ES&S results in with the exit poll results after the polls closed. The pure unmixed exit polls still said Kerry won. They forced their exit poll numbers to say that Bush won. Edison/Mitofsky later came up with a concocted explanation for this--the "reluctant Republican responder" theory (that Bush voters were shy of pollsters). This theory has been thoroughly debunked. In fact, there is evidence that the opposite is true.

On election day, alert experts like Jonathan Simon downloaded the real exit poll results as they appeared on everyone's TV screens (Kerry was clearly winning until late in the day--an irreversible win), and thus caught E/M is this deceit. E/M later had to admit that Kerry won their exit polls, but still refuses to release the raw data (precinct level) for review by statistical experts, even at the request of Congressman Conyers and his committee. This data would likely confirm the ways that E/M tweaked their exit poll results to fit the "official" (Diebold/ES&S) results. (Analysts like TruthIsAll have shown the impossible ways that the exit polls were tweaked, to make it a Bush win. They have done it by inference--the numbers just don't add up. The final proof--the precinct level raw data--is what E/M has withheld.)

Because some heroic people simply didn't believe this late in the day reversal--and have established that it is phony--E/M has promised never to let the public see their real exit polls again.

Upshot: We can no longer trust exit polls that are commissioned by the corporate news monopolies.

One of our two main checks against tyranny--honest news reporting--was AWOL on Nov. 2, 2004. The other--transparent vote counting (vote counting that everyone can see and verify)--had been deliberately destroyed by legislation of the Anthrax Congress in 2002 (the so-called "Help America Vote Act"--the $3.9 billion to fast-track this secret vote-counting system).

Of our two bastions against tyranny--honest elections and honest journalism--it's hard to say which is most important. But probably honest journalism is. Tyrants and criminals will ever try to steal elections, in various ways. Honest journalism is supposed to catch them at it, and preserve us from falsely empowered public officials. But our situation right now is that we cannot address the problem with dishonest journalism (vast corporate monopolies of news/opinion, which are now acting together--not in competition--to lie to us) because we have lost the power of the vote. Without transparent elections, we CANNOT elect representatives who will bust the corporate news monopolies, as they so well deserve.

Although honest journalism may be the more important of these two bastions against tyranny, there is little we can do to correct the oppression of corporate news monopolies colluding with the Bushite fascists, until we RESTORE our right to vote. That collusion has been very apparent on the Iraq war--but few people are aware of this specific collusion and deceit on our elections. (They may suspect it, but they don't know the facts.)

I do think we can restore our right to vote, but I don't think we have much time. This election, '06, is wide open to fraud. There is nothing in place to prevent it. But if we use what little power we have wisely--for instance, in most states, we still have the right to an Absentee Ballot vote, that is, a right NOT to vote on the rigged machines--I think we can turn this around at the state/local level.

A third bastion against tyranny is the political opposition--in the case of the U.S., limited to one other political party (of sufficient size to affect national government). I am speaking, of course, of our own party, the Democratic Party, which has also failed in its responsibility to protect our right to vote. Our democracy rests on this weak reed. We have a highly manipulated and dishonest press. We have non-transparent, unverifiable elections. And we have an opposition party whose leaders--for whatever reasons (fear? corruption? collusion? --a mixed bag, I think)--have not, or could not, counter these other forces.

That leaves the People. The bottom line of democracy. What are we going to do? Wait until things get so bad that easily repressed riots break out? Tear-gassing of little old grannies in wheelchairs angered at the looting of Social Security? Microwave weapons against anti-war protesters? Pepper spray hoses and "rubber" bullets against the civilly disobedient? (Seattle '99.)

We have an opportunity to start turning this around, peacefully, by massive Absentee Ballot next month, aimed at getting rid of these rigged voting machines. People--ordinary voters, in large numbers--are already using Absentee Ballot voting to protest unverifiable elections. We should support this indigenous protest, and make it even bigger, and help focus this rebellion on local/state election officials. "Why," we must ask, "are fifty percent of the voters refusing to vote on your machines? Why have you spent so much money on voting machines that the public does not, and cannot, trust?"

Rigged electronic voting machines are not our only problem, by any means. But until we get rid of these voting machines, we have no power to fix anything else. So this is where we must start. It would be great if our Democratic leaders would help us. But if they won't--and they have been very derelict thus far--then we must do it ourselves, locally, by forcing election officials to reform this voting system or resign. Massive AB voting will give election reform advocates the clout to get this done.

Much of South America has now achieved transparent, verifiable elections--and they've done it in far more repressive conditions than we have yet seen. Hard work. Patience. Persistence. A lot of ground work by the OAS, the Carter Center, EU election monitoring groups, and local civic groups, combined with intense civic organization at the grass roots level. The result is leftist (majorityist) governments in Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay, Venezuela and Bolivia--virtually the entire continent (and soon in Ecuador, and next election cycle, Peru).

Transparent elections = good leftist government. Non-transparent elections = bad rightwing government. It may not so easy for us, because there is still so much left for the global corporate predators to loot and misappropriate (such as the U.S. military, Social Security, Medicare, remaining pension funds, credit card debtors, the health care system in general (more families to be squeezed into poverty by unconscionable medical costs), the ever expanding mismatch between wages and cost of living, the ever expanding federal deficit underwritten by China and the Saudis, etc.). The bad guys have us by the throat, to be sure. This is WHY they have taken away our right to vote. And this is why we MUST get it back.

[OnTheOtherHand]

141. fact check

The supposed-computer-crash shtick is pretty much an urban legend. What Peace Patriot refuses to learn is that while the tabulations on cnn.com are updated only occasionally, the projections are updated continuously. So her perception that things changed suddenly after midnight is based on a cnn.com-centric view of the world, which is sort of ironic.

There was nothing "absurd, impossible" about the exit poll reweightings; they look a lot like reweightings of lots of other poll data. Arguably they could be wrong, but PP is hardly in a position to insist that they match "secret formulae." I invite her, or anyone else, to defend TruthIsAll's arguments in detail, because they are very weak. She is welcome to believe that all the folks who discount these arguments are stupid or corrupt, but I don't.

The "'reluctant Republican responder' theory" is something that the critics made up, not Edison/Mitofsky. What E/M said was that there was evidence that Kerry and Bush voters participated at different rates, and indeed there is.

The "real exit poll results" actually aren't what appeared on cnn.com, either; that's just a factual blunder that, again, Peace Patriot refuses to correct. (The initial tabulations incorporate both interview data and prior expectations based on pre-election polls.)

E/M hasn't "promised never to let the public see their real exit polls again"; rather, the media sponsors have undertaken to prevent leaks before the polls close. The results PP is inaccurately characterizing as the "real exit poll results" were posted after the polls closed. Again, I don't really understand her motivation for insisting on factual errors that aren't even central to the debate over what happened in 2004. One could actually think that Kerry won the popular vote in 2004, and still disagree with PP on every one of these points.

[LonelyLRLiberal]

147. Thanks - want to let you know I appreciate the responses and info. eom

[LonelyLRLiberal]

146. Thanks to both of you for giving me food for thought and sources. eom

[WoodrowFan]

56. Hear Hear! Become a poll worker!

I agree, become a poll worker! I am agnostic on Diebold being rigged, but I don't trust the repubs not to cheat. Or, to put it better, I do trust that the repubs WILL try to cheat. I work regularly as a poll worker here in Virginia and highly recomend it. It's a long day but you meet your neighbors, get to participate in the process, and you can keep an eye on the other side. Also, I recomend that you get to know your Democratic precinct captain so if you find the repubs trying to cheat you can contact the Democratic Party HQ in your area quickly. They'll likely have a platoon of lawyers on site to help if the repubs try anything to suppress the vote.

[Vinnie From Indy]

61. I love a good DU rant!

The passion and the confidence are inspiring!

That being said, the OP hits some balls and misses others. Getting involved is always a good idea and being vigilant is also an excellent idea, but I believe that much of the Diebold shennanigans take place without local poll workers being alerted. It is not like a shadowy group comes in and steals away with ballot boxes and then returns them later. While I heartily second the call to have vigilant Democrats at the polls, I urge people to make a minor effort to undertsand what it is they can do that would be most effective to protect our right to vote!

[Perky]

63. OP Clarification OP Clarification OP Clarification

There has been a slight leap in logic in this thread that I need to work on.

I never suggested that people are saying you should not vote. I said telling people that there votes won't be counted plays into the GOP hands.

What I meant is what I said....but...what I should have said is that the presumption that republicans and their EV accomplices are going to rig the election is tantamount to saying that Democrat votes will not be accurately counted. And that by any reasonable definition is saying votes will not be counted.

If anyone honestly believes that is not a constant theme on here they are nuts.

If on the other hand you do believe that the votes will be counted correctly. Then you should have not complaint about EV.

Choose you poison.

[galloglas]

69. You did say THIS!

"You folks who insist that voting is a worthless endeavor",

I am just asking you to find one, just one, thread where the posters says two things together.

1) That Diebold is scamming the voting public
and
2) So don't vote.

That is what your OP says/implies: And I quote, from the beginning,

"You folks who insist that voting is a worthless endeavor because the GOP controls the apparatus....are missing the obvious solution.

The only way to insure fair elections is to get involved at the precinct level."

Now that is what you said.

If you actually meant something else, OK. Just back up, correct the errors, and say what you mean.

I'm fine with that!

But, above, you say again,

what I should have said is that the presumption that republicans and their EV accomplices are going to rig the election is tantamount to saying that Democrat votes will not be accurately counted. And that by any reasonable definition is saying votes will not be counted."

And that is simply not true.

Saying that they are going to try to rig the elections again is a simple fact (HR4844, and the state bills found unconstitutional, prove that). But that they are GOING TO TRY TO FIX THE ELECTIONS is a statement about their intent, not a conclusion about their success.

Unless you are implying that the ER reformers here, and elsewhere, are totally without power to stop them? If so, then YOU are the one saying that voting is futile and that Democratic "votes will not be counted". Not us!

And no number of leaps of logic from our mantra, "They will try to cheat"(hence, be wary, observant, careful, etc.) will take you to concluding "by any reasonable definition is saying votes will not be counted."

Maybe, if you or others are (what is the term?) "Defeatocrats" and don't have the belly for a fight for your right to vote, then maybe you might conclude that "you" should stay home. But that is your choice.

As for me and my compatriots, we will be at the barricades when, not if, you need us.

[BeFree]

74. It seems

There are some that think the Dems honestly lost the last election. They seem to think America actually elected bushco. We know better, don't we?

[Perky]

76. You may be right.

But It was not my intent to suggest that anyone was saying don't vote.

But I have ssen may many post saying that the GOP has rigged or will rig the results because they control the EV system. But point however inarticulate is that the mantra is rampant and a solution, to the problem is to get into the election systemr and due the hard work necessary to keep folks hoest.


The idea that the more vote we cast the less the possibility that fraud can occure. begs an important question about the sophistication of the patches. It suggest they can somehow selfregulate the number of votes an individual machine can switch...Either that or every machine would have to be set up in such a say to that the outcome is already

So if the outcome is already known then turnout does not matter and it is fait accompli. but if the number has of Dem votes cast does make a difference in the result thenyou are suggesting that the patch would shift votes back to dem if certain quantities are met?

[galloglas]

80. I'll tell you what I KNOW, my friend.

Anyone who studies it, knows it. But, I'll not show my cards for this discussion.


Within some small constraints, there is no real need for "patches". There are many ways to fix the machines and their outcomes. Patches are but one.

But, you seem a man for either/or paradigms so, I'll tell you flat out. The machines that are electronically run can be made to do anything. If "they" decide to announce the next Presidential election, to the world, via your iPod, they will do it.

The fix can be run in "real time" (hope you understand that term) and what they decide to do is entirely up to them.

Their dilemma is this. What if the people don't buy it?

Up to the point that the people start bringing out the tar, feathers and hemp, their actions are only limited to what they can get away with (read: whatever you will believe). And they will do whatever they like, provided they can get away with it.


Now, the important point.

There are but two things which can/will stop this ongoing plot.

1) The American public's unwavering belief that what they just experienced (say on 11-8-2006) was "BullShit". Untrue. A "Wag the Dog" scene.

That, coupled with their decision that "this will not stand" (a like decision was made by the peoples of the Republic of Georgia).

OR

2) Too many times trying to make the unbelievable seem believable.

(Think, 2010, "Republicans sweep both House with an unexpectedly heavy "Boll Weevil" vote, coupled with the first time mass voting of Mennonites and Samoans).

There are only so many "unbelievables" that America will swallow. After all, Karl Rove (regardless of what he thinks) is not God!

And, after swallowing enough, they will say,

"I want hand-counted paper ballots, counted at the precinct, in front of the press and the public, and the results posted on the door before anyone leaves".


There is only one "if" in scenario #2, when the voters demand their rights.

We will all have to decide whether they go to jail, or we whether we go to jail.

The "IF" is this. If we are afraid, they will make the decision for us.

[mistertrickster]

67. AMEN! It's just too convenient to blame everything on voting machines.

Sometimes democrats just lose too. It's time to change the message, organize for power and get involved.

Election fraud has been going on for a long time on both sides. It's not the be-all and end-all.

How many people complaining about Diebold are actually pounding the pavement canvassing for Dems?

I am.

How about you now?

[BeFree]

77. A-wo-men!

So you think that the Dems lost fair and square? That since election fraud is historical that we should just get over the latest loss?

Well, we are organizing for power. What we want is to take the power to count our votes away from diebold and put it back in our hands. Don't you agree with that?

Forget the OP and all that jazz about us wanting people not to vote, it is a simple misunderstanding, that's all. It's obvious by now the OP doesn't have a clue about our true intents. We want people power, we want people to vote, and we want their vote to be counted as cast. That's all.

[galloglas]

79. MisterTRICKSTER!!

What a troublingly appropriate name.

"Sometimes democrats just lose too. It's time to change the message, organize for power and get involved.

Any particulars you want to point out? Any guidance from you? Or, whom do you endorse?

Election fraud has been going on for a long time on both sides. It's not the be-all and end-all.

You know, you're right! Except for you being dead wrong. Why don't you refresh our memories about election fraud going "for a long time on both sides". If you can find one story of the Democrats being in bed, politically, with the machine makers, I'll eat your virtual hat.

The allegations and confirmations of systematized Election Theft, as opposed to any allegations of retail "voting theft", are solely related to the GOP and are a "be-all and end-all", as you dismissingly phrased it.

It is, indeed, a "be-all, end-all" situation when the matter is not vote theft, or even election theft, but the theft of a government that is alleged.

The allegation that the penetration of this conspiracy is so deep that it has changed, ultimately, our make-up as a nation. You see, when you steal enough elections, at the right time, it conveys not just one elective seat, it conveys an entire government.

But, you gasp, "Such cannot be! That's preposterous! You're, and your ilk, are delusional!"

To which I would reply, "You're right. I, and my ilk, are either delusional or YOU, and your ilk, are deep in denial.

But if I ask you for proof, you would have to reply, "But everyone knows there was no conspiracy! It's crazy to think otherwise." Because you have nothing else.

And I would reply with a massive amount of documents, statistics, photos, jury testimony and, probably most importantly, the recent poll that shows only 45% of the population of America agrees with your view.

So, if I am delusional, I am in good company with the 55% who can see right through the "official story".

What would worry me if I were you, would be why you are among that remaining 45%.

That because among those remaining 45% are the Right Wing Religious radicals who wish to use this president to bring on Armageddon and the wrath of a Fearful and pissed off Jesus. And they are 29% of the total.

So, if we are all Democrats here, that means that you and your ilk are outnumbered by around 55% to 16%. Ever wonder about that?

And, not to burst your biennial bubble of pride about canvassing for your candidate, I would suggest to you that those at work on Election Reform (so that you actually can vote) are no Summer Patriots.

They are dedicated to busting their butts, battling an implacable foe (the corporate lobbying interests and their Bought and Paid for legislators) because they were the first to have seen that electronic hand attempting a Coup D'etat.

With them sacrificing livelihoods, risking their reputations daily, working too many hours with too little reward, is it tooooo much to ask you, and the rest of you "non-conspiracy theorists" to do your homework and read about this issue?

And to stop disparaging the only people who are out (daily, not every two years) actively trying to save your electoral butts.

If for no other reason than that you are outnumbered 55 to 19. Just stop what you are doing now and go educate yourself.

Please? Just for the sake of neighborliness with the 55% who think that you are the ones who are crazy?

And, if you can prove them wrong, I know they will all heave a huge sigh of relief. Because it's really a bitch walking around all day knowing that our Republic is this close to being electronically captured by a gang of traitors, and you and your compatriots are the only thing that will make the difference between its surviving or not.

Please, debunk us!

[foo_bar]

84. fallacious appeal to popularity aside...

And I would reply with a massive amount of documents, statistics, photos, jury testimony and, probably most importantly, the recent poll that shows only 45% of the population of America agrees with your view.

So, if I am delusional, I am in good company with the 55% who can see right through the "official story".

What would worry me if I were you, would be why you are among that remaining 45%.

That because among those remaining 45% are the Right Wing Religious radicals who wish to use this president to bring on Armageddon and the wrath of a Fearful and pissed off Jesus. And they are 29% of the total.

So, if we are all Democrats here, that means that you and your ilk are outnumbered by around 55% to 16%. Ever wonder about that?

Never mind a citation for "the recent poll" which proves everything and more, I'm wondering how 71 percent of 45% works out to be 16%. Did you use a Diebold calculator?

[foo_bar]

104. I get it now: you subtracted 29 from 45

On the assumption that 100% of "Right Wing Religious radicals" side with your opponent(s) in this discussion, and 55% of people in this apocryphal poll don't. While the first assumption is fiction (to put it gently), the second one is merely wrong:

So, if I am delusional, I am in good company with the 55% who can see right through the "official story".

Forgetting the absence of a citation (is this an online poll? a DU poll?), it's logically possible for 100% of the 55% to believe that you're delusional (if you're not in the sample); the poll wasn't conducted on whether your beliefs are tenable, just whether Bush cheated or not (or whatever the subject of this poll was). Similarly, a majority of poll respondents not believing "the official version of 9/11" isn't the same as them endorsing a conspiracy to spirit all the passengers into Area 51.

Mistaken assumptions aside, none of these statistics offer any validation of the truthfulness of your point, given that the premise is an argumentum ad populum. A minority of Americans might not believe the Earth was created under 10000 years ago, but happily textbooks aren't based on the beliefs of an opinion sample.

[galloglas]

116. And exactly what does

any of the above have to do with the basic thread?

Started thus, "You folks who insist that voting is a worthless endeavor because the GOP controls the apparatus....are missing the obvious solution."

That line quoted above is a lie and a canard.

Why don't you cite a source for it, or go start your own thread somewhere else. The figures above were an specifc appeal to the logic of the first poster, giving the opportunity to either renege or rethink it. Assuming it was not trollery.

The figures are not meant to lead "those so blind that they will not see."

[foo_bar]

124. it seems you have some issues with facts

Twice you've fabricated statistics on this thread, and twice you were called on it. Yelling "canard!" at what the OP clearly presents as opinion ("missing the obvious solution") suggests you have no idea what the word "lie" means.

[galloglas]

132. This is a lie...

"You folks who insist that voting is a worthless endeavor because the GOP controls the apparatus....

That opens the OP. IT IS NOT opinion. It is stated (wrongly) as fact.

[foo_bar]

142. you're certainly entitled to faulty opinions

What is a lie is "you and your ilk are outnumbered by around 55% to 16%", which is what I initially responded to. I'm not sure why you find the OP so singularly "offensive" (which is an opinion), but calling it a lie is, itself, a lie.

[kster]

97. OK, I will help show me where

I can go to see the Votes being counted.


GOTV, GOTV, GOTV.........

[Quixote1818]

81. Isn't Diebold only in like 5% of precincts? nt

[galloglas]

94. Diebold has, with

its sister company, ES&S, control of the counting of 80% of the ballots in this country.

Diebold makes many models. Perhaps you meant to imply that some particular model accounts for 5%?

If so, that could be true. But, it would have no bearing on the 80% monopoly of vote counting created by the Urosevich brothers.

[foo_bar]

96. 80% of electronic votes, not 80% of ballots

Diebold and ES&S combined count an estimated 80% of U.S. black box electronic votes.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm

[galloglas]

98. If you want to get technical, Foo_Bar,

yes, Commondreams does report it at 80% of electronic votes counted, as opposed to 80% of the votes counted.

Now, since we are comparing 80% of the votes to the 5% that the previous poster asked about, let me inquire.

1) Do you not think 80% to 5% worth noting?

2) Do you assume that the TOTAL electronic vote is 6% of the total vote? (leaving 94 %HCPBs)? That would make Diebold's 80% of the electronic vote total 4.8% of the total!

3) Or are you just nit-picking? "Cause if so, I will point out that the date of the article is30 months old, predates HAVA implementation, and all the changes since.

Will you settle for this?

At 80% of the electronic vote count, Diebold has control of much more than the (possibly insignificant) 5% that the other poster asked about??

[foo_bar]

103. hardly picking nits

At 80% of the electronic vote count, Diebold has control of much more than the (possibly insignificant) 5% that the other poster asked about??

Diebold and ES&S combined, you mean.

1) Do you not think 80% to 5% worth noting?

Can I buy a preposition?

2) Do you assume that the TOTAL electronic vote is 6% of the total vote? (leaving 94 %HCPBs)? That would make Diebold's 80% of the electronic vote total 4.8% of the total!

No, I'd make sure to look it up first:
http://www.electiondataservices.com/EDSInc_DREoverview.pdf

3) Or are you just nit-picking? "Cause if so, I will point out that the date of the article is 30 months old, predates HAVA implementation, and all the changes since.

Except you'll notice that the 80% factoid is 30 months old (it could be 90% by now). It doesn't seem nitpicky to point out the difference between 80%, and 80% of 21.68%, per the aforelinked sources.

[galloglas]

114. Look, Foof_Barb,

You want to say it's 80 % of 21.86%?

Great. Look at your source. EDS. Another K Street project. If you far enough, you'll find Jack Abramoff.

This thread started with an allegation that those of us who don't trust the machines were telling people not to vote. That was a lie.

Then first you quote Firakis, then a K Street flack. Payer oy bribes to Ney, et al?

How is that reprehensible canard we objected to relevant to Diebold's %?

I have an ignore button. I'm pushing it now.

[foo_bar]

123. putting me on ignore must mean you have a strong argument

You want to say it's 80 % of 21.86%?

Great. Look at your source. EDS.

The thing is, I have a source. Your 80% figure is an unsourced urban legend, as I kindly pointed out. If you have reason to believe EDS invented the stats from thin air, and it's really 80% of 100% not 80% of a small fraction, then now would be the time to, you know, provide a source.

This thread started with an allegation that those of us who don't trust the machines were telling people not to vote.

I've seen this claim repeated on this thread, but the OP writes "You folks who insist that voting is a worthless endeavor" and "Telling pelople (sic) their votes won't be counted is playing into the GOPs hands", so there seems to be a comprehension issue.

Then first you quote Firakis, then a K Street flack. Payer oy bribes to Ney, et al?

If you maintain Bob Fitrakis (not Firakis) is part of the conspiracy, and citations are merely illusions, there isn't much "consensus reality" to discuss with you.

How is that reprehensible canard we objected to relevant to Diebold's %?

We? Is this a group effort? I haven't calculated the Diebold % from the EDS appendix (or any primary source of your choice), but we're clearly discussing 80% of a minority, not 80% of 100%.

[galloglas]

127. OK, here's a source..

http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/042804landes.html

Now, I would suggest you not tell Lynn Landes that, "Your 80% figure is an unsourced urban legend, as I kindly pointed out." Knowing Lynn, she will probably "kick your ass".

My Quote:

This thread started with an allegation that those of us who don't trust the machines were telling people not to vote.

Your Quote:

{b}I've seen this claim repeated on this thread, but the OP writes "You folks who insist that voting is a worthless endeavor" and "Telling pelople (sic) their votes won't be counted is playing into the GOPs hands", so there seems to be a comprehension issue.

There is NO comprehension issue. The OP writer made a statement of fact.

"You folks who insist that voting is a worthless endeavor" and "Telling pelople (sic) their votes won't be counted is playing into the GOPs hands",

That As clear as a bell. And it was NOT a fact. And not ONE of you has substantiated that. Yet you quote the line above as if black is white.

It's not. There is NO comprehension deficit here, unless it is yours. The OP poster said what he did, I asked for cites, and YOU, for the SECOND TIME, act as if there was some misunderstanding!

The statement is libelous, on its face, to whomever is referred to as "you people".


And this is just petty. "If you maintain Bob Fitrakis (not Firakis) is part of the conspiracy, and citations are merely illusions, there isn't much "consensus reality" to discuss with you."

I don't wish to discuss anything with you (hence the ignore). You cite a mistyped last name (I am sure Bob will forgive that). And, obviously, Bob is NOT part of the consiracy.

But, why don't you get a fresh quote from Bob and see what he thinks of EDS? Then explain why you take figures (which don't agree) from two diametrically opposed spectrums, to cite the same bogus figure.

Check Lynn Landes, above. End of story.

MY QUOTE:
"How is that reprehensible canard we objected to relevant to Diebold's %?

We? Is this a group effort?

I would say so. It is the most selfless, cooperative effort I have ever seen.

I haven't calculated the Diebold % from the EDS appendix (or any primary source of your choice), but we're clearly discussing 80% of a minority, not 80% of 100%

That means you belive that the majority of the ballots cast in the US are not electronically counted. Right???

PROVE IT!!

[foo_bar]

129. so the "ignore button" was a ... canard?

Now, I would suggest you not tell Lynn Landes that, "Your 80% figure is an unsourced urban legend, as I kindly pointed out." Knowing Lynn, she will probably "kick your ass".

I was referring to a primary source, not a blog perpetuating an urban legend. You can find the same factoid on capitolhillblue and whatreallyhappened and even Wiki, but only the Wiki factoid is sourced, and it points to, you guessed it, the EDS paper (which mentions nothing about "80%" of anything).

That As clear as a bell. And it was NOT a fact. And not ONE of you has substantiated that. Yet you quote the line above as if black is white.

Hope this helps: http://www.manatee.k12.fl.us/SITES/ELEMENTARY/PALMASOLA/rcfo1.htm

Check Lynn Landes, above. End of story.

Once again, the fallacious "Argument to Popularity": http://www.fallacyfiles.org/bandwagn.html

That means you belive that the majority of the ballots cast in the US are not electronically counted. Right???

No, a majority of the ballots cast in the US aren't DREs. You should read a little slower, and think before you post (this is an opinion, not "libel" or a "canard"). Once again: "Diebold and ES&S combined count an estimated 80% of U.S. black box electronic votes" (per Fitrakis)

PROVE IT!!

And the cycle continues: http://nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html

[galloglas]

131. No more games

The OP opens with "You folks who insist that voting is a worthless endeavor because the GOP controls the apparatus...."

That is a simple, and untrue, statement. This is the third time you've defended it. Cut and paste all you want, the fact stands that the above remark is "offensive, and a lie, as stated"

The burden of proof is on you, not me.

[foo_bar]

139. facts vs. opinions

the fact stands that the above remark is "offensive, and a lie, as stated"

That isn't a fact, that's your opinion; "offensive" isn't a trait that can be objectively measured (as the Supreme Court learned). I did cite a few posts supportive of the OP's premise, but you seem to believe the OP wrote something other than what s/he wrote, per "show me where anyone says "Don't vote!" Just one Frickin' time!!" (source). So you fabricated a strawman, called the strawman libelous, and now you're pawning it off on me, not the OP. Good luck with that.

[kster]

105. I wish one Politician would go ON TV and

prove us wrong, show us how the votes are being counted, but the Politicians are veeeeeeeery silent about this, WHERE ARE THEY? The Politicians are not allowed to go ON TV and prove to the voters that the secret vote counting "CONSPIRACY THEORIST" are wrong, the Politicians shouldn't be afraid to go ON TV just to prove us wrong, or at the very least to show us how the votes are being counted, but for some reason they are.

They are remaining silent.

[garybeck]

138. no, that's ridiculous.

Diebold is the largest manufacturer of voting machine equipment and only 3 companies control over 90% of the business. How could they only be in 5% of the precincts.

[bridgit]

85. agreed...

:patriot:

[tyedyeto]

95. Show me where someone said their vote would be worthless... n/t

[yurbud]

99. good idea, but who is saying it's pointless to vote?

We talk about Diebold et al to make sure that votes ARE counted, but your suggestion would go a long ways toward keeping it clean.

How exactly would a poll worker protect the vote if code is already in the machine when it shows up at the precinct though?

[FogerRox]

106. I agree, KNR

[garybeck]

108. GET A CLUE before you start pointing the finger.

FIRST OF ALL, folks who are saying the elections are rigged are NOT telling people to stay home on election day. Can you find a single person saying this????? NO. So stop making false claims.

SECOND of all, to imply that folks are just whining and not doing anything about it is such a huge crock of shit, it shows you have absolutely NO IDEA what you are talking about. WE ARE DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN.

MANY MANY people have put thousands of hours into this issue since 04, and some since before that. There are movies, websites, candidates running on election integrity, independent studies... I could go on, but you obviously don't want to look at the facts and you just want to bury your head in the sand and trust a system that can't be trusted.

It's not just Diebold. It's all the systems. You have a lot to learn my friend. I advise you check the facts before you start pointing the finger.

I suppose Lou Dobbs on CNN, Robert F Kennedy Jr, and 7 independent studies are all just whiners. Go back to your fantasy land, or wake up and realize we have work to do.

[eomer]

111. The flaw in your logic is the idea that we can work within the existing

system and that, given enough observers at the local level, we can ensure a fair election.

That idea is just blatantly false.

Computer science experts have examined and analyzed components of our system and have warned us in no uncertain terms that you are dead wrong.

But my reaction to the fact that we cannot ensure a fair election under the current regime is just the opposite of what you suggest it is. I say that it is more important than ever to vote and I am making that point to people in my life whom I can influence.

They're going to have to steal my vote until the day I die or else eventually give in and fairly count it. That way the blame for whatever happens is on them, not me. The more fair votes there are then the more votes they have to steal and the more chance of catching them. Sort of a go ahead, punk, make my day thing.

Also, let me clarify that even though I believe it is not possible to ensure a fair election through observing, I am still in favor of observing and will do so in this election. Here in Miami-Dade County we have the worst possible system -- paperless DREs. There is no way that my observing can provide assurance that the election is fair because I can't see what is happening inside those boxes. But I'm still going to show up and demonstrate that I'm doing my part. The blame is on those who devised such a system that is inherently non-observable. I will continue to show up as a citizen observer in future elections. Hopefully someday we will have a system with transparency so that citizen observers can make a meaningful statement about the fairness of an election. Please, get on the election reform bus with the rest of us and help make it so.

[OnTheOtherHand]

112. indeed, the assumption that there are ballots to count...

or that one has some opportunity to help count them. Yeah, there are several weak assumptions in the OP.

[lastliberalintexas]

137. Seriously! "Count the ballots" shows the OP

has even less knowledge of electronic voting problems than I do, and I am by no means an expert on this issue. But I do know that I can't get a paper printout verifying that I even voted, much less proving for whom I voted. Maybe my vote was counted correctly, but I have no idea if it was or wasn't, and THAT is the problem with the electronic voting scam. The computers hold all the information rather than the local precinct/county poll workers.

[OnTheOtherHand]

144. OnTheOtherHand (tm), most folks aren't voting on computers

which isn't to imply that hacking is necessarily limited to the Direct Recording Electronic devices -- of course it isn't.

I haven't looked all around the thread to see whether the OPer clarified the part about counting ballots. It's too bad, because I'm probably one of many folks who can't really agree with either the OP or a lot of its critics.

[springhill]

128. I am going to vote..........

because even though I believe the republicans will do anything to ensure they don't lose control of the house or the senate, because they are criminals of the highest order, I still in the back of my mind hope that I am wrong. And I think everyone should vote. But, I have to say that I am skeptical. First, voter purges, and then machine control if needed.

Now, of course we should go out in the greatest numbers possible to show that if many of the races somehow turn at the last minute for republicans as they have in the previous elections, there will be more of an outcry. But we need to uncover what is going on? For those who don't want to focus on diebold or voter purges, I ask: Are we going to have to go through this every damn election from now on? We need to get to the bottom of this and expose the people behind it. And that I truly believe also.

Also, just because there are people on this board, including me, who take care of their monther in law, take care of a little one, among other responsibilities, and don't have time to be that politically involed, does not mean we don't deserve fair elections and are not entitled to talk about it.

[lastliberalintexas]

133. Um, there are NO BALLOTS TO COUNT

Apparently you don't understand the Diebold, ES&S, etc. problems if you think that people getting involved at the precint level will solve this issue. In places where electronic voting machines are in place, people do not vote on paper ballots, they vote on touch screen computers. Then the computer counts the votes cast, whether correctly or not who knows. In the majority of areas where electronic voting machines are in place, you can not even receive a paper printout which can be used to verify your vote, hence there is no paper trail.

Now, I do continue to vote even though I vote on ES&S machines which have created a number of problems in Texas (and have even been shown to be vulnerable to hackers). But you lose any shred of credibility on this issue when you tell people to get involved so that they can help "count the votes", because that isn't something that all (most?) precinct workers do anymore.


And I haven't read this entire thread yet, but I seriously hope that I wasn't the first one to point this out to you.

[mvd]

140. You are right that we shouldn't discourage voting

But I think the 2000 election was stolen for sure, and that Ohio in 2004 at the least had dirty tricks and massive disenfranchisement. Yes, it might be getting too obvious for the Repukes to try anything like that again, but we need to be very vigilant.

[OnTheOtherHand]

145. yes, lots of what happened in Ohio 2004 had nothing to do with Diebold

And many of those things are more amenable to vigilance than black-box hacking would be.

[leftupnorth]

148. Poll workers won't help if you can't vote, but thought you could

Read this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x453433

[leftofthedial]

153. The Diebold issue is REAL! And it makes voting more important than ever.

If we don't vote, they don't have to cheat. If they don't cheat, we can't send them to jail.