A Case of 'Outing'

[Autonomy]

I've decided to post this case as a separate thread from the other two on 'outing' because I think it deserves its own discussion -- a discussion not based on rhetoric or hypotheticals, but rather a real-life account of the cost of outing. If you're sick of the topic, feel free to move on to another one.

http://www.randomhouse.com/features/americancentury/imperialpres.html

Oliver "Bill" Sipple, a paunchy former Marine and high school football star, aged 33, was walking past San Francisco's St. Francis Hotel on September 22, 1975, when President Ford emerged. Just three weeks before in Sacramento, Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme, a deranged acolyte of the murderous cult leader Charles Manson, had got within a few yards of the President with a loaded gun. She had failed to get a shot off, but now the Secret Service was watching a small crowd of protesters across the street.

Sipple moved toward the front of the crowd to see his president. He saw him all right-as well as a gray-haired woman by his side, pulling a revolver out of her blue raincoat. Sipple grabbed her arm. Her shot missed the President by a few feet. Sipple wrestled her to the ground, and prevented her from getting off a second shot by shoving his hand into the firing mechanism.

Sipple shunned publicity. He was gay and he had never told his straitlaced Baptist mother. But Harvey Milk knew. "That guy saved the President's life. It shows that we do good things, not just all that ca-ca about molesting children and hanging out in bathrooms."

<snip>

Exposure was too much for Sipple. Already listless, he drifted into alcoholism and drug dependency, finally taking his own life. It was a sorry end to a heroic act-and the beginning of an issue that would roil the gay community and identity politics in the decades to come. Did anyone have a right to "out" someone else?

This heroic individual died because someone decided to use him as a political statement. That's all outing is. No matter how one tries to justify it with tortured analogies, outing is just an act of selfishness.

[DURHAM D]

1. Oh great - aren't you in the wrong place ? n/t

[Wonk]

2. There's way more than 2 threads about 'outing'. In fact, there's even

already a thread dedicated specifically to Bill Sipple, too.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2417495

[annarbor]

3. You're kidding right?????

This story actually has something to do with the outing of hypocritical Senators who are EMPOWERED to affect every aspect of our lives? What bullshit....

Ann Arbor

[Autonomy]

5. No

It doesn't have anything to do with senators. Or priests. Or actors. Or garbage men. Or circus clowns.

[mondo joe]

8. Maybe you could compare outing George Allen as a Jew in 2006 with

outing a Jew in hiding in Nazi Germany.

It would be just as fallacious.

[Autonomy]

12. But I am not making a comparison.

I am not even sure what you think I'm comparing.

[mondo joe]

13. LOL! That's like Bush saying he never connected 911 with Saddam.

Thanks for the "honesty".

[annarbor]

14. It appears....

you have attempted to "compare" the outing of Larry Craig with that of Sipple. How both cases are both examples of selfishness and politics. I'll stand by for your reply.....

Ann Arbor

[annarbor]

15. By the way....

Sipple was probably a Marine during the Vietnam War. He was described as "listless, drug dependent and drifting towards alcoholism". How is it that you came to the conclusion that he took his life simply because he was "outed"? No other pre-existing factors played into this huh?

Ann Arbor

[Autonomy]

22. Ah, now we get to the argument

No other pre-existing factors played into this huh?

By saying "other" you're implying it was a contributing factor. I think that's a fair assumption. People who knew him and have written about him say as much. What I want to know is... what amount of personal anguish of Oliver Sipple is acceptable to you? What degree of contribution to Mr. Sipple's suicide is acceptable to you?

[annarbor]

23. Now we get to the argument?

'This heroic individual died because someone decided to use him as a political statement. That's all outing is. No matter how one tries to justify it with tortured analogies, outing is just an act of selfishness'.

Your closing statement is being argued here. Again, you've got some reading to catch up on. Might I suggest that you skip the posts about smoking....

As for your question. I am not only gay, but I'm also a Marine Corps Veteran. That poor, tortured soul was a victim of many of societies issues...too many to list here. But Sipple died ashamed of the man that he was...and he should not have. Closeted, gay, congressmen that perpetuate the myth that men like Sipple, and women like me are somehow a plague on society need to be outed for the hypocrites they are. As I said in an earlier post, "give me the list of hypocrites, I'll read it on the radio myself!"

Ann Arbor

[Autonomy]

26. Fair enough.

I made an overly strong statement when I said his death was THE result of outing. It's not likely, perhaps impossible, that outing is the sole cause of anyone's suicide. However, you cannot debate that the outing was a contributing factor. It caused him anguish, and the loss of relationships with his family.

I am with you on outing hypocrites.

[kevinbgoode]

32. Did you know Oliver Sipple?

What "personal anguish" do you know about that is directly attributed to the factors you state?

[Autonomy]

16. Forgive my ignorance

but I've never heard of anyone named Larry Lewis. Until 20 minutes ago, that is. I am addressing the arguments that defend outing as a general practice. (There's at least one on the Greatest page.) I am not saying that there cannot be exceptions.

[annarbor]

17. I just edited it to read, "Larry Craig"

n/t

[Autonomy]

20. Never heard of Larry Craig either.

heehee

[annarbor]

21. ...then you've got some catching up to do....

n/t

[MadMaddie]

4. This is truely a sad case....and the way that it happened

uncalled for....

The fallen hero had a right to privacy...and if this country wasn't so fucking backwards the stigma of being gay wouldn't have pushed him over the edge...

The difference between this Hero and the Neocon in the closet Repugs is that they have made it their life and their job to destroy every Gay life in America....by attacking basic rights....they have politicized our lives....they do not have the right to impact our lives to advance their political careers

When are they held accountable for the damage they have done to tax paying Gay Americans who are living good decent lives?

What is the solution? Do we continue to stand by while the pile shit on us..or do we fight back with the few tools that we have....

Sigh...there is no good answer....the Gays in the Repug party have set the tone....this is their doing.....they are reaping what they have sewn..

[tuvor]

6. Mr. Sipple was not a hypocrite, let alone one with legislative powers.

He deserved a lot better, and I'm sure no one on DU will disagree with that.

[mondo joe]

7. Sipple was not in public life, and in a different society.

[Autonomy]

9. Hi Mondo Joe

I remember you from a thread many months ago when you vehemently defended outing as a general practice. Are you pulling back from that position to defending outing only in cases of hypocrisy?

[mondo joe]

11. I don't recall doing such a thing. I pretty much don't care about

outing in private life - people in politics are another story.

Of course if you want to keep things SECRET there's an easy way to do it: don't let anyone know.

[Autonomy]

18. I apologize if I mischaracterized your position.

:-)

[Erika]

10. Nor did Mr. Sipple go on a soapbox to denigrate gays

as people, such as Larry Craig, has done. There gets a point when enough is enough when it comes to the vast chasm between personal behavior vs public speech.

[Rockholm]

19. This "kind" of outing was indeed wrong.

Private citizen who did not ask for their sexual orientation to be mention. Shit. IT WAS NOT EVEN RELEVENT.

[kevinbgoode]

25. It apparently WAS relevant back then. . .

because the heterosupremacists running this country MADE it relevant.

[kevinbgoode]

24. This is bullsh*t

First of all, that was 1975. Sipple didn't die because he was "outed" - he died because of the way this country treated OUT people... and the shameful way the government and the media handled his situation, particularly robbing him of the accolades of his heroism and replacing it with the scandalous homosexual stories.

He was gay. Every time a damned heterosexual goes out on a date and holds someone's hand, it's a "political statement." How come they don't all go home tortured and end up taking their own lives for being "outed" because someone else saw them holding hands in public? Give me a break. And while you are at it, try reading a well-researched account of the Sipple tragedy, which is one more embarassment of the way this Nation has treated it's own "equal" gay citizens.

As a gay American, I will not be told to endure sacrifice or hardship or second-class citizenship simply to protect some coward's right to hide in a damned closet. That closet only exists because other people USE us as whipping posts in this society. And when those closet cases are public officials who lied about themselves to both the public and hurt my rights, don't tell me to kiss their ass because they might be fu*king insecure. If they are so damned insecure, their butts don't belong in public office to begin with - get it?

Perhaps while we debate the tragedy of humiliating some dishonest, disgraceful public liar from Idaho who votes against my rights and causes damages, you can explain why Congressman Gerry Studd's HUSBAND isn't entitled to his federal pension because these GOP GAY lying sacks of crap voted for that Defense of Marriage Act. Once more gay Americans are expected to make material sacrifices to maintain the fuc*ing insecure superstitions of some privileged special rights religionist.

As far as Sipple goes, that is NOT a good discussion to start around here. His story was an utter embarassment to this government and to this country, and it only makes me angrier that he was harmed by the outrageous attitudes and rejections of a society that believed more in beating a bible than providing the god-given rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to one of their own heroic citizens.

[Autonomy]

27. So Sipple's death is justifiable to you

because it might decrease your burden. You blame "society" and don't mention Milk at all. Milk knew well the reality of society, and was willing to throw Sipple under the bus for his own purposes.

You've lapsed into rhetoric with your post. But we're talking about real people here, not talking "points". Sipple might well be alive today if it were not for being outed.

[kevinbgoode]

31. I think you need to do a lot more research about that case

before you make so many blatant assertions. I notice you have nothing to say about the mass media reports, how they were handled, how the Administration handled the situation then, the roots of his mother's chosen religious beliefs and their effect on him, or anything else. You are only attempting to drop the issue into Milk and the gay community's lap as the cause of the problem.

And don't you dare talk to me about "talking points." The whole intent of this thread is to throw around your own "talking point." Perhaps you'd like to enlighten us as to your understanding of the gay community in 1975. . .and until you are willing to start from there, your snarky comments are not appreciated.

Who was running this country in 1975? When someone mentions "society" at that time, it is rather obvious who was in charge of things and how the reactions were staged. Again, you need to do a little more than recite ideas from one source to attempt to use his situation as a comparison to what is going on today.

[mmonk]

28. Depression.

When someone has it, it overwhelms the person's thoughts to where they can't think and takes over. He could be alive today if someone had tried to get help.

[Autonomy]

30. I'd be depressed too

if someone made my major life decisions for me and I was powerless to stop them. Depression is known in current psychology as "learned helplessness". Surely Sipple learned some of that helplessness being outed.

[mmonk]

33. Yes, but a chemical imbalance in the brain

can acerbate the situation and is sometimes an hereditary trait whereby medication could have saved him and maybe he could deal with it and go on. It's important to recognize symptoms in people and it seems the symptoms were obvious.

[kevinbgoode]

34. Uh...you don't think he felt helpless BECAUSE he was gay?

so wouldn't that depression already exist whether he was "outed" or not? Wouldn't it have potentially driven him to suicide or substance abuse without being "outed?" Wasn't it. .. actually, back in 1975, considered appropriate to portray gay Americans as overly effemininate, mincing, whiny, perverted, lisping degenerates that everyone should hold in contempt? And that image was played out over and over and over again in every aspect of popular culture?

But that wouldn't have established any helplessness or depression?

[David Zephyr]

29. Can you understand the word "distinction"?

Oliver "Bill" Sipple was not in a powerful position drafting legislation to punish homosexuals.

Oliver "Bill" Sipple was not encouraging hate speech against homosexuals.

BIG DISTINCTION!

[mitchum]

35. Bullshit! YOU are exploiting Sipple's death with your specious strawman...

"argument"

I applaud the outing of EVERY fascist enabler