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A Biologist Calls "Two Humans" Prediction "Utter Nonsense"

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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 09:37 AM
Original message
A Biologist Calls "Two Humans" Prediction "Utter Nonsense"
Edited on Wed Oct-18-06 09:39 AM by BurtWorm
If you thought the BBC story about two developing strains of human beings--one "high class," the other "low"--was fishy, you had good reason. This is from Pharyngula.com, a blog by PZ Myers who teaches biology at the University of Minnesota in Morris:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/10/utter_nonsense.php

What the hell? How can the BBC News publish this tripe?

But in the nearer future, humans will evolve in 1,000 years into giants between 6ft and 7ft tall, he predicts, while life-spans will have extended to 120 years, Dr Curry claims.

Physical appearance, driven by indicators of health, youth and fertility, will improve, he says, while men will exhibit symmetrical facial features, look athletic, and have squarer jaws, deeper voices and bigger penises.

Women, on the other hand, will develop lighter, smooth, hairless skin, large clear eyes, pert breasts, glossy hair, and even features, he adds. Racial differences will be ironed out by interbreeding, producing a uniform race of coffee-coloured people.


Ignoring the fact that you cannot predict long-term evolutionary trends without knowing long-term environmental trends (and not even then), I would like to see the evidence for any of this. For instance, I doubt that there's even a speck of credible data showing that men with square jaws have greater reproductive success than men with more rounded jaws…or that large penises and fertility are correlated. The author of this claims is just making things up, I assert.

On what basis does he make these claims? It's all about his perception of what sexual selection should do.

People would become choosier about their sexual partners, causing humanity to divide into sub-species, he added.

The descendants of the genetic upper class would be tall, slim, healthy, attractive, intelligent, and creative and a far cry from the "underclass" humans who would have evolved into dim-witted, ugly, squat goblin-like creatures.


In other words, because he (and the advertising world) has set up hairless women with pert breasts and glossy hair as the ideal, well, they must get lots of sex and produce lots of children who will propagate that Cosmo state of airbrushed perfection. Meanwhile, no man is going to breed with the majority of women (you know, those women who have body hair and whose breasts actually sag a little bit…the "squat goblins") unless they are chinless, lopsided dwarves, so we're going to see that subhuman breed spontaneously segregated from the noble Eloi.

I might have believed this nonsense could come from some late 19th century eugenicist, but now? Is there any evidence of the kind of sympatric speciation event described going on? Humans are a happily interbreeding group, with no hint of the separation of genetic classes corresponding to this prediction emerging, or that real-world human beings make mate choices as simplistic as that, or that the people who best fit those stereotypes are at all superior in reproduction. What competent biologist could even suggest such silly nonsense?

The source is not a biologist, which helps. It's Oliver Curry, who recently received a Ph.D. from the Government Department of the London School of Economics, and now teaches Political Theory. "Eh, what?" I hear you say—what does training in government, economics, and politics teach you about how evolutionary biology works? Apparently, next to nothing. Worse still, this fellow is a member of something called the Evolutionary Moral Psychology Group. I roll my eyes at everything Evolutionarily Psychological, and sticking the word "Moral" in there just makes it worse. There is good work in morality by psychologists and social scientists, but calling it "evolutionary" seems to be a universal corrupter, as the practitioners, who rarely have any knowledge of population genetics or evolutionary biology in general, strive to tangle their misperceptions of biology with the complicated business of how their brains work....
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. It's nice to know that the ugly, goblin-like people...
are going the way of the Republicans.

But I repeat myself.
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nickinSTL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. so very nice to know that in the future, I'd be a Morlock
what a bunch of crap.
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FSogol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
3. dim-witted, ugly, squat goblin-like creatures? You mean the GOP? n/t
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
4. This sounds like some geek's sci-fi fantasy!!!
Edited on Wed Oct-18-06 09:46 AM by MADem
....squarer jaws, deeper voices and bigger penises....lighter, smooth, hairless skin, large clear eyes, pert breasts, glossy hair, and even features....a uniform race of coffee-coloured people...

The frustrated musings of someone who's spent a bit too much time playing video games, perhaps??

And on edit: What about the poor lad who looks like his mother, or the poor young miss who is the spit image of her daddy? How does this clown "square" the square-jawed girlchild of this union? Or the smooth, hairless boychild for that matter?
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
5. High class beauty
Edited on Wed Oct-18-06 09:47 AM by Jed Dilligan
Like the CEO of Exxon exhibits?



On edit: I believe in the "two humans" theory too. I think that working people will remain human, and the executive class will evolve into Jabba the Hutt.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 09:48 AM
Original message
Are those "pert breasts" under his "square jaw?" Is he the future gone
horribly wrong??? :rofl:
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
9. No, he's melting
Must be raining holy water.
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
18. He certainly IS a big penis!
With ears...
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. If my penis was that ugly,
I'd get surgery to correct it.
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survivor999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
6. This is so stupid...
Especially in a world more and more dominated by INFORMATION and virtual interactions, the way people look like in reality will matter less and less. On the other hand, people's brains are going to matter more and more, as technology becomes something anybody needs to master to survive.
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
7. OTOH: Pollutants May Shrink Genital Size, Study Says
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Red Zelda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
8. Pert breasts? Glossy hair?
I'm there now, Oliver babee.
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. LOL
Welcome to DU. :hi:
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
10. "Pert breasts, smooth skin and glossy hair"? Sounds as if someone was
Edited on Wed Oct-18-06 09:52 AM by yellowcanine
engaging in a little sexual fantasizing. And getting paid to do it. It is a tough job but somebody has to do it I guess.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Like I said upthread, what happens to the lad who looks like momma?
Or the square jawed young lady who looks just like daddy?
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
12. and here i was all about that bigger penises thing --
until this guy said it was bunk.

just couldn't leave well enough alone.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
13. Is that coffee with or without cream?
I think we should be told.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
14. And those breasts will be pert for 120 years too
and I have some swamp land in Utopia to sell him
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Ha ha!
Gods, that struck me funny! :spray:
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
15. Hear, hear
I roll my eyes at everything Evolutionarily Psychological, and sticking the word "Moral" in there just makes it worse. There is good work in morality by psychologists and social scientists, but calling it "evolutionary" seems to be a universal corrupter, as the practitioners, who rarely have any knowledge of population genetics or evolutionary biology in general, strive to tangle their misperceptions of biology with the complicated business of how their brains work....

:applause: :applause: :applause:

I went to graduate school with some "evolutionary psychologists." What utter hogwash that stuff is. I love to see it slapped down by a real evolutionary scientist.

:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
19. In as little as just a few years, a new species will emerge...
Edited on Wed Oct-18-06 10:23 AM by Javaman
one that glows. They will be the result of moron* nuking Iran.

I'll make a prediction in 10,000 years, the human race will have evolved to such a level of stupidity, they will die out because they will have forgotten how to breath. give or take 10,000 years. ;)
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
20. What the hell is this guy talking about?
As we all know, this experiment has been done before, and the result is the British royal family.

'Nuff said.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
21. As if there haven't been differences in appearance throughout
human history?

So the future belongs to tan people with fashion model features?

Methinks his brain has been warped by seeing too many episodes of Baywatch.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
22. Oh, He's an Economist
They're paid to live in a hypothetical world.

Dr Curry's scenario assumes that attractiveness as a mate is related to breeding success, or number of offspring. If this were true, the rich and attractive would all have thirteen kids and poor people would be childless. We know how well that correlates to reality. Typical economic analysis.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
23. He has neglected the evolutionary importance of "Beer Goggles"
Anyone who has ever watched The Jerry Springer Show knows that people don't always choose the most sexually desirable people to breed with.
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SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
25. If and only if
just those who fit the criteria (hairless women w/ pert breasts and square jawed men) were to reproduce with each other, and the short squat ones reproduce only with each other, then maybe, over several thousand years this could happen. But in a little over a century? This is someone who just doesn't understand very much.

I've been hearing nonsense like this for at least thirty years, and what it mostly indicates is a complete ignorance about the fact that most humans actually reproduce, and there's a fairly random mating process going on.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. He missed the freshman bio lecture
Where they talk about phenotype vs. genotype and recessive traits...
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
26. lol.. they never fail to mention how they long for big penis'
Edited on Wed Oct-18-06 01:26 PM by notadmblnd
or is "peni" the plural for penis. I'm surprised they didn't write that the women would all have tighter.. Well never mind, I sure you get my drift. Is is just me or has the whole world gone crazy today?
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
27. A load of bullshit
This is what he says we will look like in the future, since people will become "choosier about their sexual partners, causing humanity to divide into sub-species."



Does this guy actually get paid for writing this tripe?
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Where's the ginormous penis?
:wtf:

Maybe it's retractable?
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. It's what is inside that matters...
Who's to say the gal on the right isn't smarter and brighter than the guy on the left. For all we know the "subspecies" might be the pretty ones.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. I think she's cuter than he is - from the picture. n/t
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
31. I'm a layperson when it comes to biology and genetics
And I can see this guy is a complete nitwit as a scientist. Is he trying to bring back Larmarck-ian (sp?) theories of heritability? That was the guy who believed that if you lost a leg in an accident you could have children who didn't have legs. Many hairless, pert-breasted women are not that way as the result of birth. They acquire those characteristics later through effort and expense. Therefore, they are not going to pass those traits onto their daughters.
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
33. R. O. T. F. L.
:rofl:

Larger penises ... Oh, keep dreamin' buddy boy.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
34. If anything, the upper classes grow weaker with inbreeding...
then what historically follows is a revolution.

Nature has worked that out very nicely.
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Fox Mulder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
35. PZ Meyers was my Genetics professor while I was at Morris.
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. What did you think of the class? (nm)
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-19-06 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
37. PZ Myers is da man.
Then agian, he's a fellow Minnesotan, so I might be biased. :)



That moron of an economist aparently know jack about evolutionary biology. Also, we will be geneticaly engineering ourselves in the future, rendering natural selection irrelevent.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-20-06 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
38. kick
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