I have been researching the ammo dump fire all morning...

[w8liftinglady]

all news of it stopped 10/11/06.I've posted on sftt.org,who sometimes have inside info.I have looked at every piece of military news released.nothing.
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,116519,00.html
"The blaze broke out in an ammunition holding area, where material is kept temporarily before distribution to the units at Falcon, said Lt. Col. Jonathan Withington, a spokesman at the base. He said more than three battalions were stationed there at the time of the fire but he would not give a specific number of troops"

[acmavm]

1. Thanks for posting this. I have been wondering if I've just

missed any news about it. It is very very very strange how that just dropped off the radar. And I saw one picture of the fire. And it was not very encouraging. The fire looked huge and it lit up the sky. (Who has that picture? I saw it here.)

Something very bad happened and they don't want anyone to know about it.

[spanone]

45. Here's the last thing I've seen on it.

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=146196

[eleny]

2. Perhaps there might some glimmer of news in boards around the net...

...run by families of soldiers. But perhaps those are included in your research of military news.

[brokensymmetry]

3. Fascinating. K&R so others can see this.

I think the concealment of this event says a lot.

What, exactly it all means...well, I'd like to
see what others say.

[notadmblnd]

4. there was some blog that had postings and video footage

made by someone who was there. I read about it because the link was posted here. I didn't book mark it though. Have you searched DU for articles too?

[Norquist Nemesis]

5. Donning tinfoilhat here...

At the time there were supposedly no casualties. More specifically, no REPORTS of casualties. And yet, this month is on target to be one of the highest (if not the highest) in US deaths.

[bigbrother05]

9. video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1410660598904719984&pr=goog-sl

[Norquist Nemesis]

14. Holy crap! n/t

[LonelyLRLiberal]

26. Everyone needs to watch this -

The comments during the video are very interesting. You can hear the sirens and orders for everyone to take shelter in bunkers. The guys filming are kinda joking around at first, then it gets pretty quiet except for exclamations when another big explosion occurs.

I don't see how casualties could have been avoided, unless the explosions were far away from buildings.

[conscious evolution]

54. Did anyone else notice

when someone asked if there where "chemical munitions" there?

[file83]

59. I noticed that to. Is that even a possibility? What do those guys know

that the American/World public doesn't?

I hope they are just regular soldiers with :tinfoilhat:'s on, making a guess.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pacalo]

48. That had to have been a nuclear bomb -- did you see the mushroom cloud

that formed afterwards, suspended in the air for the next 30 seconds after the bomb exploded?

[berni_mccoy]

49. Not every mushroom cloud is caused by a nuke

I've seen plenty of convential explosions create mushroom clouds. If that had been a nuke, even a small tactical one, much of the city would have been destroyed and would have caught on fire.

All it takes for a mushroom cloud is a large volume of heated gas to expand rapidly at the site of the explosion. Convection and thermodynamics does the rest. Here's a small explosion that causes a mushroom cloud: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3978917686682038046&q=mushroom+explosion&hl=en

[pacalo]

56. I'm relieved to know this. Thanks for the info.

[hedgehog]

67. As a side note, back during the Cuban Missle Crisis, my

parents were awakened one morning by a loud explosion and looked out their window to observe a mushroom cloud. It turned out to be a fireworks factory outside of Akron, Ohio. I asked my dad what they did. He claims they just went back to sleep.

[jberryhill]

73. Try these on for size...

Weapons cache detonation:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6365604429685622390&q=detonation

426 ton ordnance detonation:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4547217297232181864&q=detonation

Some C4

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5999087837644965511&q=detonation


Now all of these were taken during daylight, so the flash doesn't look as overwhelming given the limited dynamic range of your average ccd.

[bigbrother05]

61. Thanks for posting the date

I had not even noticed, pulled it from a thread yesterday.

[Ghost Dog]

93. Thanks for some correct video

So, would that have been the only 'big one' explosion, or only one of many (not shown in this clip)?

[ichblog]

109. That's the wrong video

That's taken near Kirkuk a year ago.

[w8liftinglady]

13. that was my concern as well

the stories keep mentioning no "reported" casualties.
http://news.google.com/news?q=news+about+ammunition+depot+baghdad++fire&hl=en&lr=&rls=SUNA%2CSUNA%3A2006-30%2CSUNA%3Aen&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&start=0

How do you have an explosion with that magnitude,three battalions based at the depot and not one casualty?

[Justice Is Comin]

19. Absolutely!! Just imagine the shrapnel there had to be alone.

Ammo-gate.

I think there were smart weapons stored there too. This is a major cover up.

[never cry wolf]

34. It appears that those troops were less than a mile away

I counted off approximatly 4 seconds between the explosions and the sound which would put them pretty darn close, IMHO.

[BelgianMadCow]

36. well, for one, the explosion is the "big one" but seems to have come

after initial mortar attacks and other fires broke out, and ammo started to go off.

So maybe there was opportunity to get out of there.

Nevertheless the total blackout smells to high heaven.

[conscious evolution]

55. If USforces were under attack

where would they go?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

112. You don't store huge amounts of ammunition right next to barracks.

And it's likely that anybody in the immediate vicinity would have thought, "Hmm... They're shelling the ammo dump. Perhaps I should move quickly away from the several thousands of tons of explosives that I'm standing next to, before something bad happens. Believe it or not, this isn't the first ammo dump fire/explosion in history, and the Army has procedures for this sort of thing that are designed, you guessed it, to make sure people remain safe it it gits blow'd up.

[global1]

16. Are You Suggesting That If G.I.s Got Killed In This Ammo Dump....

which seemed to have a news blackout soon after it happened - that the rising death toll that we are hearing of now where really killed in the ammo dump and they are trickling out the death toll so as not to show that they got killed all at once?

I don't know if that made sense - but say that a lot of our people were killed in the ammo dump all at once. Now that wouldn't play well to the 'merikun public just before a critical election. So maybe a news blackout was instituted at the ammo dump and every day since they are saying 5 got killed here - 10 got killed here, etc.

I know I have my tinfoil hat on - but it is suspicious isn't it.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ghost Dog]

92. Yes, especially this:

<snip>

Nine Huge American Transport Planes Unload Casualties From Devastating Strike

In a bulletin posted at 2am Makkah time before dawn Wednesday morning, Mafkarat al-Islam reported its correspondent as saying that the US military hospital at the massive American-occupied air base in al-Habbaniyah had begun to receive dead and wounded personnel from the devastating Resistance rocket assault on the US Falcon arsenal in the southern Baghdad suburb of ad-Durah. Just before midnight Tuesday, the Iraqi Resistance fired barrages of Katyusha and Grad rockets into the arsenal, the largest such facility in occupied Iraq, causing the ordnance to begin to explode. Western news reports stated that the blasts continued for hours lighting up the nighttime sky over Baghdad.

The correspondent for Mafkarat al-Islam reported at that hour that three huge US transport aircraft emblazoned with the Red Cross had flown into the base, and casualties were being unloaded and sent into the hospital at the al-Habbaniyah base, located some 70km west of Baghdad.

Later, in a dispatch posted at 2:45am Makkah time Wednesday morning, Mafkarat al-Islam reported that two more huge transport planes had arrived in the US-occupied al-Habbaniyah airbase, 70km west of Baghdad carrying casualties from the devastating Resistance assault on America’s Falcon Base in the US-occupied as-Saqr (Falcon) Forward Base in Sukkaniya located in the southern Baghdad suburb of ad-Durah.

Eyewitnesses in the village of al-Bu Mar‘i, about 2km from the US-occupied air base were quoted as saying that as of that time, a total of five enormous transport planes had flown into the base emblazoned with the red cross. The transports came in under fighter escort, the fighter planes remained aloft circling al-Habbaniyah as the transports set down.

The witnesses said that the US occupation forces illuminated the base, something they do not normally do, as swarms of American helicopters prowled the skies around the area, trying to prevent Resistance rocket attacks.

Then in a dispatch posted at 5:15pm Makkah time Wednesday afternoon, Mafkarat al-Islam reported that at 7am Wednesday morning the last of a total of nine huge transport planes had landed at the US-occupied al-Habbaniyah airbase, site of America’s largest military hospital in the country, during the night.

The al-Habbaniyah correspondent for Mafkarat al-Islam reported that the transport planes continued to land and take off all night and into Wednesday morning ferrying back and forth under fighter escort from Baghdad loaded with dead and wounded Americans.

The correspondent reported eyewitnesses as saying that the aircraft did indeed fly into al-Habbaniyah from Baghdad. The huge transport planes arrived over al-Habbaniyah with fighter escort and then would break away from the warplanes land at the airfield and then take off again after about 20 minutes.

/...

[Norquist Nemesis]

23. Don't you just hate it when the hat feels necessary?

Yes, that's what I'm (at least) wondering about. The seemingly odd coincidences from this administration are increasingly shown to be manipulations (read: coverups).

I dunno. I would think if that's the case there would be a revolt by some pretty outspoken soldiers marching to their Representative. I'd also expect to see Michael Ware...but his absence on this is notable, IMO.

No mention of even the cost of that cookoff either. Not the replacement costs of the facility or the munitions. The whole thing is just strange.

[malaise]

51. Yep I too am suggesting that

I wear a permanent tin foil hat with these war criminals.

[Karenina]

39. The casualties will be

S-P-R-E-A-D O-U-T in the daily reports. Family calls from Iraq have confirmed that shit was flying ALL DAY LONG. My sources are third hand but just watch for the daily toll of GIs to rise... They will NEVER tell you that 100 GIs were killed in one clip.

[stillcool]

I've been looking too....

this was the only one I found that was not worded as a press release. All other articles, regardless of the source, had the same wording.

http://www.sundayherald.com/58553

Bombs, gun squads, burials ... one week in Iraq


As US troops fear a new onslaught, the head of the British army calls for a pullout, leaving Iraq’s future in the balance. By James Cusick


Last Tuesday night in Baghdad the Iraqi skyline was lit up. In what was believed to be one of the most sustained and ferocious mortar and rocket attacks in three years, there was widespread fear among senior US military personnel that the protected international zone (IZ), formerly the “green zone”, was about to experience a direct assault.

Major gun battles were being fought in two of Baghdad’s districts – Doura and Mansoor. Doura has a large oil refinery, Mansoor is technically an affluent area close to the IZ. Gunfire and explosions were louder than normal and then, at around 7pm, the first large rocket landed inside the IZ itself. Another hit came after 10 minutes, then another two minutes later. Then a series of explosions, different to the daily “normal” rocket attacks were felt. For those in the IZ, the explosions were so close and so fierce that, even for experienced military personnel, “you could taste the cordite in your teeth”.

The sustained attacks lasted for two hours, during which Camp Falcon, a major US ammunition and storage dump, was hit. The attack resulted in what one security official called “a fireworks display”. But the display wasn’t put on for entertainment. Immediate military feedback pointed to casualties.

With the IZ in blackout mode, specific troop and tanks movements were ordered, said to be a precautionary defensive measure. But there was high-level concern that the fireworks would be followed by something the US military fears – a large-scale assault on the IZ itself. Helicopters were all over the place trying to figure out what was happening and where the attacks were coming from. Tuesday in Baghdad wasn’t a good night if you needed to sleep.

The official US military line on Tuesday night was that fire had broken out at the weapons dump in southern Baghdad and that “ammunition cooking off” had caused the explosions. There were no official reports of casualties. The Iraqi interior ministry added little, saying only that neighbourhoods close to the Falcon forward operating base in Doura had been “shaken”.

[hobbit709]

6. It's on this site

http://piglipstick.blogspot.com/2006/10/news-blackout-on-major-disaster-near.html

[catmandu57]

12. There's a better video

It's on Google, if you go to Goggle Video and put in army ammo dump, it comes back with a video taken by the troops there. It's nine minutes long and if there aren't massive casualties, I'm a monkies uncle.

[Norquist Nemesis]

25. Tried to catch what was coming in over the radio in background

but couldn't quite make it all out. Sounded to me like "Impact" and "gunfire" a couple of times at least. Then, it sounds like ALL personnel were ordered into bunkers.

Anyone make out those transmissions?

[MADem]

42. That event happened a year ago--not the same explosion. NT

[Norquist Nemesis]

44. Good catch! n/t

[hobbit709]

29. If you listen to what is said

and look at the date on that video, it's not the same one. The troops one is during the invasion, you can hear them asking if there's any chemical weapons. etc.

[buddysmellgood]

63. I'm not saying you're wrong, but don't you think that if a fire started

in an ammo dump, everyone would pull back to a safe distance? The guys making the tape seem safe enough.

[onenote]

80. uh-oh, a purveyor of logic!!

[ichblog]

110. There are two videos

One from Kirkuk a year ago.

And one from Baghdad very recently from Arabic TV.

People are getting confused.

[nosferaustin]

7. Here's the link

I found on DU yesterday in another thread. Unfortunately, the audio on the linked video is not in English but the explosion at 3:55 into the tape is scary.

http://piglipstick.blogspot.com/2006/10/news-blackout-on-major-disaster-near.html

[Union Thug]

11. holy cow...that explosion is devastating...

What the hell was that?

[jberryhill]

15. A video camera...

Iris wide open and zoomed at night, with limited dynamic range, responding to a rapid, bright event.

[Richard Steele]

20. A video camera ELEVEN MILES AWAY....

And that mushroom cloud after the blast is certainly
not a camera artifact.

[file83]

60. The person that posted the video at "Piglipstick" blog said

they thought it looked like a nuke. I'm not sure you are trying to suggest the same thing, maybe you're just trying to say it was a big explosion. Which ever it is, it wasn't a nuke. Nuclear devices don't explode from being "cooked off" like regular munitions. They rely on a perfectly timed, carefully shaped internal explosion that starts a nuclear fission chain reaction, something that can't happen by them simply being placed into a fire.

[Richard Steele]

62. No, it certainly wasn't a nuke, just a DAMN big explosion.

Everything you say is correct.(and no nuclear device would EVER
be stored in such a place to begin with.)

Any sufficiently large explosion will create the "mushroom cloud"
we commonly associate with nukes. And that explosion was, obviously,
sufficiently large.

I was simply responding to the DUer who seemed to be implying that
the size of that blast was an illusion created by the camera filming
it.

[file83]

75. Cool.

:thumbsup: And I agree - it was a pretty big one.

[MADem]

66. You can get a swell mushroom cloud from a bigass propane tank

that was improperly hooked up. It would happen every now and again when I lived out that way, in apartments where the tank, out on the curtained balcony and connected through a hole in the wall, wasn't properly secured and Abu was out there smoking his pipe or what have you.

We associate the mushroom cloud with a nuclear explosion, but all it really means is a bigass boom. They wanted to simulate a nuke with a shitload of weaponry out in the Nevada desert, in a test called Divine Strake, but people were afraid that it would kick up all the radioactive dust out that way. So, to the best of my knowledge, it hasn't happened.....YET.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/ops/divine-strake.htm http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2006/10/us_says_north_korean_test_was.php

[file83]

76. I'll never forget the gas explosion caught on video....(clip)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZPtm6uM_WI

I forget where it was.

[jberryhill]

70. There's no question that it was a large explosion...

It's just hard to tell how large. There seems to be a perverse desire for there to be a lot of casualties, but there have certainly been large refinery and other industrial explosions in which surprisingly few people got hurt. It appears that the fire was burning there for a while before "whatever it was" blew up. But when something like that catches fire in the first place, it's not as if you go running in with hoses.

I mean, "Hey, there's a fire in the ammo dump. Whaddya say we mosey on over to the ammo dump and try to put it out?" is probably not what the training manual says. If it is out of control and heading for a storage area for large munitions, you get the hell away. Ditto when something goes bad wrong at the oil refinery, chemical plant, etc.

There's certainly a cloud, but I was referring to the apparent size of the flash because it seemed that some comments on how "large" an explosion it was were based on the apparent size of the blast, which IMHO can't accurately be judged. It would be better to have audio, know the distance away, and then figure how many dB above background the audible "boom" was, as a way of getting at the energetic force of the blast.

[Richard Steele]

77. "There seems to be a perverse desire for there to be a lot of casualties".

So, you think DUers are -HOPING- that this killed
large numbers of US troops?

It SEEMS that that's what you're saying....because that's what you said. :wtf:

[jberryhill]

79. Saying "it comes across that way" is simply

...an observation that "it comes across that way".

I really can't read minds, nor would I intend to. I don't think anyone is HOPING that it killed a lot of people. The thing is, if it didn't kill a lot of people, then what you have is a fire in an ammo dump, and a military which is not inclined to report the precise effectiveness of a mortar attack.

But, yeah, it's easy to get caught up in wanting to prove some pet theory is true without taking a step back and thinking, "Hey, what do I *want* to be true."

The problem with the theory about "spreading out the casualty reports" or simply not reporting casualties, is that we have an all-volunteer force with families here. You can't just "spread out" dozens of deaths in a single unit without someone noticing that a single unit seems to be taking a hell of a beating - no matter how you might spread it out temporally.

Again, take the hypothesis that there were no or very few casualties. You are not going to see a screaming headline saying "Dozens NOT hurt by fire and explosions in ammo dump".

[Richard Steele]

90. Saying "it comes across that way" is a much better way to put it, IMHO.

And the "problem with the theory about "spreading out the casualty reports""
isn't actually a PROBLEM yet. The fact is, we HAVE BEEN seeing a spike
in troop casualties as reported daily, just as that theory predicted.
(And I should take a sec to state that we both know it's actually a "hypothesis",
before someone comes along and jumps on us for that)

The real problem is that the deliberate media blackout of this event
quite naturally invites reasonable suspicions, and the powers that be
are giving us no information to allay those suspicions.
The few facts we have so far are insufficient to rule out
even the most tinfoil-based scenarios.

Personally, I'd like to know WHICH 3 units were stationed there at the
time; that would make it easy to compare with the units seeing a
sudden increase in casualties. But I haven't even seen that info yet.

[jberryhill]

114. Don't you see the circularity in the logic there?

"The real problem is that the deliberate media blackout of this event
quite naturally invites reasonable suspicions"

The notion of a "deliberate media blackout" assumes that there was a large number of casualties.

If there was not a large number of casualties, then just how much coverage would you expect the event to have? There was a mortar attack on an ammo storage facility. A lot of stuff went boom. Anyone in the area had the good sense to get the heck away when it looked like stuff was going to go boom. A week later, the report is not going to be "The stuff that went boom last week isn't going boom anymore".

[Hubert Flottz]

8. Ask your congressman...

[RufusEarl]

10. It's pretty amazing to me,

with journalist that are in Baghdad not being able to go out of the green zone to do any reporting, that they wouldn't be asking more questions about this event.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[onenote]

81. if its not credible, why post it?

[w8liftinglady]

88. because it is literally the only piece of "news" from the middle east

there is virtually no reporting on this from Iraq or any of the Middle eastern countries.By credibility,I was referring to it being a personal blog,not a news source.

[MADem]

107. Al Jazeera had it; I posted a link to their story in this thread NT

[MADem]

18. Well, generally speaking, there aren't a shitload of troops hanging around

an ammo depot--it's recognized as a dangerous area even in peacetime. The film of the event cited elswhere in this thread was taken from a bunker some distance from the explosion. They don't place billeting or other MWR/MWA activities near ammo storage areas, and there are minimum clearances (explosive arcs) that must be maintained based on how much crap you've got stored.

The ones at risk would be the ones guarding the area, not the entire base population.

[catmandu57]

38. That makes sense

The toll though, in munitions and equipment is going to be staggering.

[wicket]

21. K & R

:kick:

[Subdivisions]

24. K&R. Also, I am gathering some non-US sources and I

will be editing them into this post until the editing time expires. Decide for yourself whether they are credible or not.

9 Transport Planes Ferried American Dead Bodies From Baghdad
http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2006/10/12/5939.shtml
Homepage: http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elehhhhna]

28. Did y'all know that Abu Ghraib is located at the Falcon base?

http://www.pej.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=5781&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

[Ghost Dog]

94. No, it's not.

(But there may be another prison/interrogation center there).

[w8liftinglady]

30. more unsubstantiated eye-witness reporting

http://dissidentnews.wordpress.com/2006/10/12/iraqirabitaorg/
In the meantime, Camp Falcon, the chief ammunition depot of the American army, continues to explode and burn, as does any news about the fate and injuries of approximately 100 American soldiers, while the sky above the city burns and rocking southern Baghdad like a child’s cradle because of explosions inside the base.

American forces were unable to rescue their soldiers inside the base, which contains a helicopter runway now consumed by fire, along with eight considerable stores of ammunition each being more than 40 meters long. Subsequent explosions continue.

[w8liftinglady]

101. and when I say "unsubstantiated"...it means there is literally no reportin

from this region on the incident to confirm this.

[elehhhhna]

65. FYI: 2,783 DEAD. 70 so far this month. Gonna hit 2800 by H'ween.

[MADem]

32. I find that first source, crap, to be frank. They're using those old

pics of caskets that that woman got fired for taking, and it's clearly an advocacy/terrorist/freedom fighter (depending on your perspective, I'll take the middle definition for now but YMMV) website.

I trust the Al Jazeera coverage, as they are on the ground over that way, and I'll trust what I know about explosive arc perimeters on military installations that store ammo.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/121DC66C-0EC2-4FE2-ACFB-192F6FF6ACB9.htm

...Iraqi officials said that shells "cooking off" in the fire had crashed down in five districts in the south of the city.

The munitions store in Forward Operating Base Falcon was still burning on Wednesday, more than 13 hours after the strike set off the blaze that lit up the night sky and spread panic in the Iraqi capital.....While there were no reports of US casualties, the explosions marked a rare success for mortar teams working for militia and fighter groups, which rarely cause much damage to well-protected US facilities.

Military and civilian personnel were evacuated from Forward Operating Base Falcon without injury....


It is damned lucky that no one guarding the perimeter appeared to get killed, but I wouldn't anticipate massive casualties in any event, unless you had a major "PORT CHICAGO" loading evolution going on (which would be highly unlikely, given the regs nowadays), concomitant with shitty ordnance handling procedures, minority sailors without equal rights doing the heavy lifting, and two racist asshole supervisors brutalizing their subordinates while having a little contest to see which team could load faster.

That was a disgraceful day in Navy history, and the lessons learned from that shameful event changed ammo handling, storing, and loading procedures permanently. The sad story, for those interested, here: http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq80-1.htm

[berni_mccoy]

31. self delete

responded to wrong post.

[MADem]

37. Unless the guy had a time machine, it couldn't be, then!! NT

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MADem]

41. I don't believe that either.

Nukes aren't handled like regular ammo. They aren't left in a dump, all armed and ready to blow. And ESPECIALLY in a dump surrounded by insurgents who could overrun the area and compromise the security of the weapon.

Think about it--if the US wanted to drop a nuke on Iraq, they sure as hell wouldn't store it there. It would come from an aircraft or a surface ship in the Gulf if it were a tac nuke, and from a sub if it were a strategic weapon.

Primer on our nukes, here: http://www.thebulletin.org/article_nn.php?art_ofn=jf06norris

[negativenihil]

46. do you understand the difference...

between a tactical nuke and thermonuclear device? they are quite different.
one, like you said is usually delivered via an aircraft or other delivery system (icbm, etc), while the other is generally used with howitzer.
in any case, i'm just throwing this out here. you're free to believe or disbelieve anything you wish :)

[MADem]

50. An ICBM is a strategic nuke, not a tac nuke

That said, I understand what you are saying, (you're talking about the sort of weaponry pictured here http://www.nukestrat.com/korea/koreahistory.htm ) but we need to ask ourselves a few questions that any military commander on the ground would ask.

First, is that the best place to store a few tac nukes? Surrounded by insurgents, under constant mortar attack? When all you need to put a chunk of nuclear ordnance on target, without the EXTREME hassles and ENORMOUS manpower assets that attend having nuclear weapons on your facility, is a single satellite phone call?

Would anyone in their right mind store a nuke weapon like that? All ready to fire? In a war zone? Out in the open, or in a nonhardened weapons storage facility? I just can't imagine that ever happening. Hell, I used to work in a hardened facility--it was like working in a pharoah's tomb, the walls were so thick....and our facility was a paper bag compared to the nuke facilities.

The whole scenario is unbelievable. I realize our military is compromised, I realize a lot of the good leaders have quit or been fired, but I can't believe that even the stupidest, most craven military flag or general officer would allow that sort of thing to occur. They can't possibly be that stupid, and the chain of command above them can't be that fucked up. Even with the Monkey and Rummy running the show.

[negativenihil]

64. i think we can both agree...

there are many many unanswered questions surrounding all this.

for all we know, this could be someone's *major* screw up.

In any case - i'm sorry - i didn't mean to imply that i was supporting the theory presented in my link. Just something i came across in my travels along these series of tubes that matched up with the date of this incident.

[northzax]

40. just remember

there ain't nothing like a good fire to make all sorts of stuff vanish into thin air.

[BelgianMadCow]

43. the media blackout is telling in and of itself, but

seeing the (dated) 9 minute video upthread, which has considerable more bang than the recent one, and hearing the troops laugh and banter in the first one, and saying "it'll be a wonder if noone is hurt", that leads me to believe it is possible to have huge fireworks and no casualties in this second one (coupled with the statements about perimeters around ammo dumps).

So I am inclined to interpret the blackout as shileding for political fallout.
Which is equally reprehensive, as it is designed to let this clusterfuck of a war rage on and more innocent people get killed.
It totally fits in their MO to not let the raw truth of war get to the public.

The first time I heard about embedded reporters, and the fate of our one belgian journalist who could not get an insurance because he did not want to embed, and the "accidental" attacks on independent media, all my warning flags went up.

They still are. It will be ugly when light is shed on the dirty deeds of this administration. Might as well try to poor some light on them NOW. Good job!

[MADem]

108. Here's the LATEST NEWS on the matter

FWIW, that video you reference with the laughing troops was taken last January. It doesn't record this event. The video of this event is the arabic television footage.

Most embedded reporters have left. It's Jane Araf and a few others for us...otherwise, the best footage is from Al Jazeerah or Al Arabiya...

My take is that there is no "blackout." What's happening over there is awful enough, between the civil war, the partition of the nation, the insurgent attacks, the roadside bombs, that one more lousy mortar attack (amongst many) on a forward operating base, even if it did produce some spectacular fireworks, is just not a sustainable story. It didn't bleed, so it doesn't lead.

http://www.blackanthem.com/News/military200610_1476.shtml
Operations return to normal after mortar attack on FOB Falcon
By Spc. Jason Dangel, 4th BCT PAO, 4th Inf. Div.
Oct 14, 2006, 18:18


Blackanthem Military News, FOB FALCON, Iraq – Less than 24 hours after enemy 82mm mortar rounds hit an ammunition holding area, causing a torrent of explosions and fires that continued to smolder through the next day, life on Forward Operating Base Falcon has retuned to normal.

Despite triggering multiple explosions and causing fire crews to work overtime, there were no casualties, and little damage was sustained to the buildings and vehicles positioned throughout the large military base located in Baghdad’s Doura neighborhood, said Col. Michael Beech, commander, 4th Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division.

With the help of seven Explosive Ordnance Disposal teams, the Soldiers at FOB Falcon were quickly able to locate and dispose of all unexploded ordnance near the explosion site, which enabled business to return to normal Thursday morning.

"Ultimately, this incident has had a minimal effect on my brigade's operations within the last 24 hours," Beech said. "This attack did not effect ongoing Baghdad security operations in our area of responsibility, and the loss of ammunition will not degrade the operational capability of the 4th Brigade Combat Team.”

http://www.blackanthem.com.nyud.net:8090/News/hunting_for_uxo.jpg

FOB FALCON, Iraq – Staff Sgt. Evan Ort, ammunitions specialist, Company A, 704th Support Battalion, 4th Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division, marks down the location of a piece of unexploded ordnance located at Forward Operating Base Falcon Thursday. Within approximately 24 hours, life returned to normal on Forward Operating Base Falcon after enemy 82mm mortar rounds hit an ammunition holding area Tuesday night and caused a torrent of explosions and fires that continued to smolder early Wednesday morning. (U.S. Army photo by Spc. Jason Dangel, 4th BCT PAO, 4th Inf. Div.)

Additional not-terribly-useful information is 'buried' in other articles:


http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/15738986.htm
The U.S. military, meanwhile, reported Wednesday that an insurgent mortar attack had caused a fire Tuesday night at a U.S. ammunition supply depot and sparked a series of explosions that shook much of the capital.

Arabic-language television reported that the Islamic Army in Iraq, a Sunni Arab insurgent group, claimed responsibility for the attack. The mortar shell ignited a fire that set off tank, artillery and small-arms ammunition at Forward Operating Base Falcon in southern Baghdad.

``Intelligence indicates that civilians aligned with a militia organization were responsible for last night's mortar attack,'' Lt. Col. Jonathan Withington said in a news release.

U.S., British and Iraqi military bases frequently draw mortar and rocket fire that rarely inflicts casualties.


http://www.telegram.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061012/NEWS/610120442/1052



The U.S. military revealed yesterday that a spectacular series of explosions in a munitions depot on a U.S. base here late Monday was caused by an 82 mm mortar shell fired by insurgents. The attack destroyed much of the stockpile, shut down most operations on the base and grounded a few battalions, compelling the military to relocate troops from elsewhere in Baghdad to cover the units’ patrol areas.

[jokerman93]

47. Hey...pssst

"Bring 'em on."

:nuke:

:sarcasm:

[mariema]

52. This is all I could find as of Oct 14

http://www.blackanthem.com/News/military200610_1476.shtml

and I have also been looking for follow up stories. There is nothing after 10/14/06.

It is very likely that there were DU shells in the depot. My husband was at Camp Doha during the motor pool/ammo dump fire there in 1991. They found unexploded DU ordinance then. It is a good bet they will find the same at the FOB Falcon dump, too.

[Ghost Dog]

95. DU warheads? Almost certainly, (& maybe a big bunkerbuster) imho.

See, eg. here: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Ghost%20Dog/31

If you were watching T.V. and you saw any bombs hit there was an easy way to tell if it was D.U.

If you saw all those little secondary white fires burning in the air in the blast: that was D.U. burning off. D.U. burns with a whitish orange flame, almost looks like a firework shell burning.

[wicket]

53. kick

:kick:

[w8liftinglady]

57. all I have to say-4th Infantry Division from Ft Hood...

be looking for an increase in their death rates

...An unknown number of troops from the 4th Infantry Division, out of Fort Hood, Texas, were at Forward Operating Base Falcon when the base's ammo dump began to explode.

A military statement said the fire began at about 10:40 p.m. and ignited tank and artillery shells and small arms ammunition.

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/nation/15728930.htm

[BelgianMadCow]

58. Interesting you highlight that - I was thinking the best way to get at

the news was to contact the families of the soldiers concerned.

[w8liftinglady]

69. when I have time-I'll check out how many have died-three this week so far

[hedgehog]

87. If there were bunkers in place and if the troops had time to get to them

then casualties would have been minimal. The Army has to go where it is sent, but it has been at this business for a while. It's too bad Rumsfeld didn't listen when the generals old him what would happen when they went in to Iraq, but at least I don't think he's gotten around to redesigning ammo dumps yet.

[w8liftinglady]

89. I hope you're right-but why the virtual black hole if there's nothing

just curious.all reporting on this stops 10/11.

[hedgehog]

91. MAybe because no reporters can safely get out there to look around?

Once the shells stopped cooking off, you couldn't see anything from the Green Zone. Not that I blame the reporters for trying to stay safe -too many have been killed already.

[Ghost Dog]

96. The AFP report syndicated here says:

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=146196

"Soldiers and base employees were moved immediately to the safety of hardened buildings and structures on the base," a coalition statement said.

[w8liftinglady]

100. written 10/11...and even THEY write...

Surprisingly, there were no reports of casualties among the more than 2,000 US military and civilian personnel at the camp, nor among the citizens of Baghdad, whose night was disturbed by hours of terrifying detonations.

[hedgehog]

68. Can someone with military experience answer this question?

Is there a practical way to store ammo so it won't be set off by a mortar strike or similar weapon? DOes it seem reasonable that a single strike took out the entire facility in a series of chain reactions? I would imagine that the Army figured this out a long time ago and the fact that this ammo dump blew the way it did indicates that the Army is under such pressure that normal procedures are being ignored.

[MADem]

82. In deep, thick walled, hardened bunkers

But they take a while to build, and you still are vulnerable when you receive new shipments or are in the process of distributing ammo to field assets. You still need to adhere to your explosive arc regulations, too, or get a specific, written and limited waiver from DC to deviate from them. At this stage, though, they really wouldn't have to ask for a deviation, because they are in a position to just take/appropriate/swipe sufficient land for the distance of the arc.

[hedgehog]

85. There are some pictures given in a link below.

I would say the damage was limited given the spectacular night shots. If the pictures are real, it would appear that something approaching proper precautions was taken so that the fires were a result of direct hits rather than a chain reaction taking out the entire camp.

[aikoaiko]

71. ammo dump fires keeps the price of ammo high :-(

...here at the homeland. ...:-(

[Gwerlain]

72. OK, some things to keep in mind...

1. When an explosion happens, it forms a fireball, and that fireball rises. A mushroom cloud results when the air blast from an explosion rebounds and compresses the bottom of the cloud of smoke, generally below the fireball. The top of the cloud is hot, so it rises, and doesn't get compressed (as much). That means the bottom gets compressed, forming the stem, and the top doesn't get compressed, forming the cap. For obvious reasons, this is much more pronounced in a large explosion than a small one.
2. Nuclear weapons cannot generally be set off by a nearby explosion, unless they are extremely crude; and tactical nukes, being very compact, are necessarily highly sophisticated.
3. Even a tactical nuke is very powerful; it could shatter windows and possibly even knock houses down at a mile or two. Nothing in any of the clips gave me the feeling that this was anywhere near that big.
4. The US inventory includes fuel-air explosives, basically propane bombs, that is, high-pressure canisters filled with propane/ethane/etc. It is possible that one or more was present at the ammo dump.
5. Nobody with a brain puts the quarters/barracks next to the ammo dump. I don't care how much of a hurry you're in. And if they do, nobody with a brain sleeps there. And everybody knows where it is. It's kind of important to know that so if you run out you've got a clue where to get more. You wouldn't want to be asking around in the middle of a firefight. It might not work out well.
6. Placing ammo too close is an error that could happen if someone was in a hurry; that's the most plausible theory given here.
7. Ammo's pretty cheap, all things considered, and relatively easy to replace. It's also pretty embarrassing to have your ammo dump blown up, and it's a problem when you're dealing with the possibility of it emboldening your enemies.
8. Mortars are pretty long-range, and pretty hard to defend against. Once a hit is made, several more shells can be dropped in the same area in quick succession, and then the mortar is folded up and everyone runs away.

My guess? Somebody set up a mortar and ranged in on the ammo dump, and when they got a hit they kept firing until they figured they were making a target of themselves and left. Maybe they managed to hit an FAE bomb. Anyway, it volcanoed. A few guards got hurt or killed, but not much of anybody else. The military is hushing it up because they don't want a bunch of extra attacks and because it's pretty embarrassing; it might also be a security issue, think about it, do you really want your enemy to know where you keep all your ammo? They're using a secondary supply base, and replenishing as fast as they can.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hedgehog]

84. Interesting pictures if real.

They would indicate that the ammo was kept in discrete locations separated by some kind of blast walls. Note that the damage is confined with apparently undamaged containers just adjacent.

[Ghost Dog]

97. Rense not a credible source for DU?

just saying.

[Richard Steele]

105. Well, this pic is BELIEVABLE as a possible site of that one big blast:

At first glance, it just looks like more scorched earth;
then I realized that both the inner and outer walls have
been blown away right along the scorched area.
Also, what looks like a guard tower at the corner seems
to have had some height blown off as well.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasLawyer]

83. It "rattled windows"

Yeah, nukes and mushroom clouds will do that.

[hedgehog]

86. Put away your tin hat.

Conventional munitions are very capable of rattling windows. God knows, it doesn't take nukes to do a lot of damage to people and their things.

[w8liftinglady]

99. please-you guys know I'm not the tinfoilhat type,but

you have to admit,the fact that all news ceased on 10/11 is unusual...from all news sources.

[truthisfreedom]

102. they can't keep this under wraps forever.

someone in the msm wants to get this out. you can be sure. it's just too big.

[w8liftinglady]

103. I am a rational person...not a conspiracy theorist,by any means...but

when you see the obvious black-out by the media...you have to wonder.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

111. I don't get it.

It's an ammo dump fire. I mean, it's big. But this is Iraq, where large explosions are not exactly unique events anymore. It's not as if it were an ammo dump in Virginia.

[Senator]

104. My first thought -- Retreat

The depot location was near, but not part of, the Green Zone.

As the report posted above says, there was concern about a direct assault on the Green Zone.

You don't circle the wagons and leave all that ordinance available to the enemy. At least not since they got caught "supplying the insurgency" by not having enough troops to secure Saddam's weaponry early on.

If you're forced to leave in a hurry, you can't arrange to carry it all with you.

So...Boom!

Then, you go to any lengths (literally any) to be certain that the dreaded word "retreat" not appear in any media report -- at least not until after you steal the next election.

It would explain the blackout and the lack of casualties.

And it also means that it is possible that the unthinkable -- "losing militarily" -- is a very real concern. Even in the short term.

--

[wicket]

106. kick

:kick:

[TexasLawyer]

113. kick