Need Help Debating NeoCons About Economy.

[AllexxisF1]

Hello Everyone,
Since I have a great fondness for heading on over to raptureready.com (a FAR RIGHT NEO CON Religous site) to do my part in debunking these myths throughout the years I ran into a bit of a snag.

Everyone knows about the DOW numbers coming out of late and their spouting off to the hilt about how things are better now that the Clinton boom years and I am eager to post factual statistics showing how while business is booming salaries and other area's or not. I am at work so doing the long leg work finding these things is not an option but I sure as hell cannot let the bastards win.

So if any of you have at the ready a good response with factual statistics please help a brother out. Or if you like debunking these loonies head on over there yourselves :lol:

[BOSSHOG]

1. This may help

http://news.bostonherald.com/editorial/view.bg?articleid=161760

Now go forth and kick some ass.

[spotbird]

5. That's perfect, thanks. nt

[Selatius]

23. I have never seen that much information expressed in such a short report.

If you went on the campaign trail and gave a 2 minute speech with just this information, you'd be winning their hearts already.

[spotbird]

2. Adjusted for inflation

the Dow is down since Bush took office. The other markets are down in real and inflation adjusted numbers. Average household income is down. Cost of higher education, ridiculously up. Cost of housing, insane. Insured Americans, down.

If an American was wealthy and invested in certain foreign currencies six years ago he is doing quite well today. By almost any measure, the average Joe is worse off. In other words, the "booming" economy is only meaningful to Bush's true base.

[Dr Fate]

3. I can at least give you some good common sense talking points:

Whenever I argue with repubs who insist the economy is good, I say:

"Wonderful-then could you please tell my boss the good news, so that he will give me a raise as opposed to cutting my benefits?"

"Also, could you tell my landlord about this WONDERFUL news too- so that he can take my rent back down from where he raised it this year?"

"Also, while you are at it- could you tell my grocerey store to stop raising their prices every few months- after all, the ecomony is BOOMING and they should have no need to do that..."

"Then their is the matter of my utilities..."

You get the picture.

I find the best debate tactic is to argue "my economy" as opposed to "Someone eleses economy that some man on TV tells me about."

Sorry I cant give you the stats & numbers, but keep in mind that most swing-voters (who should be your intended audience when arguing with die-hard repubs)are not impressed with bookish numbers & stats- common sense, "Your pocket book" arguments win the day with them.

[Ellis Wyatt]

10. but

Rising prices is often an indication of a stronger economy. Supply and demand and all. When commodity prices and housing stagnate or even fall, it's normally a very bad sign for the economy.

[Dr Fate]

24. But-but-but- I'm still broke. Fancy economy text books dont change that.

Fact is, rising expenses FOR ME and most swing-voters means that I have less money in the bank and in my wallet. What they mean for the man on TV or some economics professer, I couldnt tell you.

If rising expenses are not coupled with rising wages, then your assurance does nothing for me.

I dont care what the man on the TV says or what some well-paid fancy-pants economics professor says about "their" economy- rising prices and no pay raise and less benefits means that "my" economy stinks.

Plenty of "swing-voters" would nod their heads and say "that makes sense" if they heard this argument.

[alcibiades_mystery]

4. Uh huh

Came here first, eh? On the day the Dow broke 12,000, huh?

Pretty transparent, F1.

[spotbird]

6. It is transparent,

but the Dow is such a meaningless number that if this poster really believes the economy is better under Bush, s/he needed an education.

Since there has been no reply it is safe to assume that the poster has the answer.

[Ellis Wyatt]

7. Well

1. They've heard of inflation right? Still hasn't reached the inflation adjusted peak. This point probably doesn't carry as much weight because it seems like a semantic discussion. But in reality, if their point is that it's better - the only way to say it's better is it's higher; and you need to normalize things.

2. More importantly. No one in the investment community cares about the Dow. It's only 30 companies, and only one industry. Sure, it's huge companies and the largest industry, but it's still not a whole picture. If they must focus on the stock market, the S&P500 is widely used as the indicator there, and we are still below the high there (1,530ish)

3. While the stock market is AN indicator, there are other indicators that I'm sure others will also list

[spotbird]

9. Welcome to DU Ellis!

Fantastic response.

[peanutbrittle]

8. Simply put......

"Of course the market is going through the roof. The speculators in the real estate market needed some where to start dumping all their proceeds from that bubble. One great big transfer of wealth from one bubble to push the other." The stock market isn't an exact indicator of the overall economy.

[AllexxisF1]

12. Transparent?

Transparent? Dude I am as a true blue Democrat as you can get. I have been on that site for four years debunking all the NEOCRAP these people post day in and day out and it's working. I get PM's all the time from people who used to be sheep but now see things for what they really are. We all have a responsibility to stand up to the crap and tell these sheep that Rush and company are lying to them.

Here is the link to the discussion I am having, I go by Mr. Ecko.

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?p=3602701#post3602701

Thanks for the help people keep them coming.

[peanutbrittle]

14. huh? n/t

[wicket]

20. I think he/she meant to respond to another poster up thread

n/t

[Emit]

11. Welcome to DU! Try this site

It might have what you're seeking. Here are a couple of specifics:

January 27, 2006 | EPI Issue Brief #219

Why people are so dissatisfied with today's economy

by Lee Price

In recent weeks, incumbent politicians have bragged about growth in gross domestic product, jobs, and pay and touted declines in unemployment. Yet a January 12 Gallup poll found that 55% of Americans rate the economy as only "fair" or "poor," and that 52% believe the economy is getting worse. It will not come as a surprise to these Americans that the Commerce Department reported today that, in the fourth quarter of 2005, GDP grew by a tepid 1.1% and the wage and salary growth rate was 1.7%.

The following set of questions and answers provides insight into the public's dissatisfaction with the economy despite the seemingly positive numbers that often get the most attention.

~snip~

Declining wage gains
Don't rising health care costs explain why wages have not done well?

No, labor market slack has caused both pay and employer benefit costs to rise more slowly. Data on employers wage and benefit costs show that over the last year, wage and salary income per hour rose by 2.3%, the slowest year-over-year rate on record. That compares to a gain of 2.9% two years earlier. Over the most recent year, benefit costs (including employer-paid health insurance) rose 5.1%, down from 6.5% two years earlier (Figure F). As a result, growth in total compensation slowed from 3.9% to 3.1%. Because of the acceleration in inflation over that period, inflation-adjusted compensation declined by 1.5% over the last year in contrast to a 1.5% gain two years earlier. That fact, plus the fact that increases in profits are running multiple times the increase in employer health care costs, makes clear that the squeeze on wages is coming from profits and not from health care costs.

http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/ib219

Wages
Last month, Treasury Secretary John Snow noted that real (inflation-adjusted) wages had risen 1.1% since March 2001 in contrast to the 2.1% decline in wages over a comparable period of the 1990s business cycle. Aren't wages doing pretty well?

The slack in the labor market has taken a toll on pay gains. While the Treasury data are accurate, they give the misleading impression that wages are doing well in this cycle. In fact, real wages fell by 0.5% over the last 12 months after falling 0.7% the previous 12 months. Because of the momentum of real wage growth from the tight labor market of the late 1990s, real wages actually continued to grow during the recession that began in March and ended in November 2001. Since then, however, they have fallen slightly (Figure C).



The decline in inflation-adjusted pay has been the largest for lower and middle-income employees. For example, workers at the 20th percentile of the income scale suffered a 0.8% decline in real pay. Only the highest wage employees enjoyed pay gains that outpaced inflation—those in the 95th percentile of wages had gains last year of 0.8% (Figure D).

http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/ib219

The state of jobs and wages

Lee Price and Jared Bernstein

Economy up, wages down
The year 2005 was a solid economic year by some indicators, as the economy expanded for the fourth consecutive year. Real hourly wages, however, fell for most workers.

Each bar in Figure A and Figure B represents the percent change in the buying power of the wage for different groups of workers. Figure A shows the real wage changes of low-, middle-, and high-wage workers, corresponding to wages at the tenth, fiftieth, and ninety-fifth percentile of the wage scale. Figure B shows the change in average real wages by education level for high-school and college graduates (four-year degrees).





For low- and middle-wage workers, as well as those with a high school degree, real wages fell last year by 1%-2%. Those at the top of the wage scale experienced marginal gains, and real wages were essentially unchanged for college graduates.

The decline in real wages for these groups of workers was the result of a variety of factors. As shown in an earlier analysis, nominal wage growth slowed over the past few years as the slack in the job market ultimately slowed the momentum coming out of the full-employment job market of the latter 1990s. Inflation was also a factor last year, as energy costs drove prices higher (on average for the year, inflation was up 2.7% in 2004 and 3.4% in 2005). Thus, nominal wages needed to grow that much faster to beat price growth.

Other factors contributing to the decline in real wages are those that reduce the bargaining leverage of many in the workforce, including: the erosion of union power, the fall in the real value of the minimum wage, the growing imbalance in international trade, and the offshoring of white-collar jobs. As long as these forces are in play, the headwinds pushing against real wage gains for many in the workforce will remain strong.

http://www.jobwatch.org/

More Children are Uninsured
September 27, 2006
By Elise Gould

The rate of uninsured children in the United States has increased for the first time in seven years, from 10.8% in 2004 to 11.2% in 2005. From 2004 to 2005, the number of uninsured children grew by 361,000 to a total of 8.3 million uninsured children.

Children have experienced declines in employer-provided health insurance in each of the past five years, but public health insurance programs—Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP)—have offset this trend, preventing many children from becoming uninsured when their employment-based benefits were lost. But in 2005, this phenomenon reversed as fewer children were insured by either employer-provided or publicly provided health insurance (see Figure).



Children experienced declines in employer-provided health insurance coverage of 5.1 percentage points in the last five years. In 2000, 65.6% of children had employer-provided coverage, whereas in 2005 only 60.5% did. While the number of children insured by Medicaid or SCHIP increased from 2000 to 2004, 184,000 fewer children (nearly 1%) had Medicaid or SCHIP in 2005 than in 2004.

The weakening of the public safety net combined with the continued erosion in employer-provided coverage is pushing more children off the rolls of the insured.

http://www.epi.org/content.cfm?id=2501

[VOX]

13. Self-delete -- BOSSHOG got on the 1st post. He's the man! n/t

[AllexxisF1]

17. Thanks Peoples!

I think all that shut them up real good.

It is really sad in a way because most of the people on that site are poor trailer trash and they know how hard the economy is. Even though they won't admidt it I know they agree with what I had to say.

Tell you what it's been tough sometimes trying to de-rushifying them but hey the fight has got to be won, one mind at a time.

[tenshi816]

15. I lurk at RR.

I don't post there because I think they're mostly insane in their delusions, but good luck to you. Are you that one person posting in End Times Chat who actually says logical things, but not in such a way that the rest of the posters there could put actually put a finger on why you're not one of them?

[Kingofalldems]

End Times Chat?

:rofl:

[AllexxisF1]

18. About RR

Quote -I don't post there because I think they're mostly insane in their delusions, but good luck to you. Are you that one person posting in End Times Chat who actually says logical things, but not in such a way that the rest of the posters there could put actually put a finger on why you're not one of them?

Yea that is probable me, I go by Mr.Ecko on that site and several other names in the past when I used to get banned all the time. I am not a Christian, I am a non church going Roman Catholic LOL. I go there because that's where the NEO CONS are. Everyone likes to help our party in different ways. I saw in early 1995 that the Conservatives got it right by working at the grass roots level. So I am fighting the good fight at the grass roots.

Some of them are good "traditional conservatives" where although you might disagree you can at the very least have sensible discussions. But the site is mainly comprised with 99% people who call themselves GOD's chosen yet they want to nuke the entire mid east.

[joefree1]

16. Are those folks supppose to gone by now

But anyway here's another article:

Health care, wages, energy costs put squeeze on middle class
By Kevin G. Hall
McClatchy Newspapers
(MCT)
WASHINGTON - When he was asked recently why Americans aren't delighted by their strong economy, Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson called it the $64,000 question.
In fact, there's a $65,093-a-year answer. That's the median income of a family of four in fiscal 2006, according to the Census Bureau, and middle-class families are being squeezed between stagnant wages and skyrocketing energy and health-care bills.
The U.S. economy is indeed strong. Although growth is slowing, it's essentially been steady since mid-2001. September's unemployment rate was a low 4.6 percent and the Dow Jones Industrial Average reached record highs last week.
But through September, the growth in hourly wages was flat or negative for 27 of the previous 29 months, according to Labor Department data. Wages for blue-collar and nonmanagerial workers - 80 percent of the work force - are growing at a 3.9 percent annual rate, the Labor Department reported in September. Consumer-price inflation, however, is rising at the same rate. That means prices are rising as fast as wages.
Workers are barely keeping up. Health care, wages and energy prices are consumers' top three economic concerns, according to a Gallup poll in September.
More ...
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/15781375.htm

Rapture ready? Not!

[FormerDem06]

19. If they used the DOW before they reconfigured it a few years ago

It would have hit 12,000 in January. The DOW is doing well because wages are stagnating and dropping. More profits for the companies. The closer to free we are, the better they do.

Sad really.

[Finder]

21. They are not neocons...

but most are paleocons and libertarians.

[Selatius]

22. Here are some HARD NUMBERS on the economy

The Economic Policy Institute's

The State of Working America 2006/2007:

http://www.stateofworkingamerica.org/facts.html

Included in the report are family income, class-mobility numbers, poverty statistics, wealth, jobs, wages.

Perhaps the most illustrative is the comparison of the US economy to economies in other industrialized nations.

[LSK]

25. you do realize the Stock Market LOVES profits right???

And how do you get profits??? Reduce costs or increase revenues. Doesnt reducing costs mean reducing salaries and outsourcing??? How is that good for the economy?

Sorry, but the DOW is just one of many factors that judge the economy.

[applegrove]

26. Try looking at the distribution of wealth by country. USA is just ahead of

................................... Russia and MEXICO!! Mexico has serious problems as a capitalist country while Russia is about 15 years old.

Then look up median income..is that rising or falling.