(Reuters) Is God dead? Atheism finds a market in U.S

[Synnical]

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=inDepthNews&storyID=2006-10-18T114543Z_01_N10351822_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-ATHEISM.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsHome-C3-inDepthNews-2

By Michael Conlon, Religion Writer

CHICAGO (Reuters) - A fresh wave of atheistic books has hit the market this autumn, some climbing onto best-seller lists in what proponents see as a backlash against the way religion is entwined in politics.

"Religion is fragmenting the human community," said Sam Harris, author of "Letter to a Christian Nation," No. 11 on the New York Times nonfiction list on October 15.

. . . .

Religious polarization is part of many world conflicts, he said, including those involving Israel and Iran, "but it's never discussed. I consider it the story of our time, what religion is doing to us. But there are very few people calling a spade a spade."

. . . .

His "Letter," a blunt 96-page pocket-sized book condensing arguments against belief in quick-fire volleys, appeared on the Times list just ahead of "The God Delusion," by Richard Dawkins, a scientist at Oxford University and long-time atheist.

. . . .

Publishers Weekly said the business has seen "a striking number of impassioned critiques of religion -- any religion, but Christianity in particular," a probably inevitable development given "the super-soaking of American politics and culture with religion in recent years."

. . ..

"I've published 45 books, many critical of religion," Kurtz said. "I think in America we have this notion of tolerance ... it was considered bad taste to criticize religion. But I think now there are profound questions about age-old hatreds."

. . ..

Larsen, author of the soon-to-be-published "Crisis of Doubt," added that in some sense atheism is "a disappointment with God and with the church. Some of these are people we wounded that we should be handling pastorally rather than with aggressive knockdown debate."

[Duer 157099]

1. Thank God someone is finally speaking up n/t

[Alexander]

2. Anyone know how many atheists there are in this country?

I hope to be alive on the day the first non-religious president is sworn in.

[stopbush]

12. Estimates are 3-9%. With 300-million citizens, that means

9-27 million people.

[Marnieworld]

49. Actually I read estimates at 10-15%

And I personally think it's much higher. Even so with a 300 mil pop the US has 30 mil atheists. Approximately the same number of African Americans. Can you imagine if they were as disregarded and ignored as atheists?

[VeggieTart]

58. Well, African-Americans are born that way

Most people choose atheism/agnosticism after a lot of thinking. Still, we are terribly marginalized for our beliefs terribly, and any other religious group would be freaking if they were treated as such.

We should tell born-again Christians, BTW, that we don't approve of their lifestyle choice. I mean, they admit they choose to turn their lives over to Jesus, which -- sorry, Christians -- seems to me to be a way of saying, I am not taking responsibility.

[Marnieworld]

61. everyone is born atheist

you are taught religion. Atheism is the absence of those beliefs. If you are never indoctrinated into something what would be the default belief system?

[Synnical]

15. Depends on which poll you read

Many won't "come out". Many are agnostics, not atheists.

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/129492.htm

How Many Atheists in America?
Atheists appear to be a growing segment of the population - but how big of a segment? Decent figures seem hard to come by, perhaps because admitting atheism is as much of a social taboo as admitting homosexuality. Add in confusion about the definition of atheism and a very difficult situation is created.

Which dives into the "outing" issue . . .

[NGC_6822]

32. Definition of an atheist

What is the problem of defining an atheist? For me the definition seems simple. "An atheist is one who BELIEVES, there is no God." No one can prove the existence of God one way or the other, although many think they can. An agnostic is one who has not yet fully arrived at a personal belief. I don't see anything else that needs to be said about the definitions.

[Synnical]

33. Ah, no, incorrect

An atheist is one who holds no belief in any deities. An atheist does not "believe". As there are varieties of theists, there are varieties of atheists. There are hard/positive atheists (such as Dawkins) and there are soft/agnostic atheists (such as Sagan).

But, atheists hold no "beliefs" in regard to the "god" matter. There is no evidence to suggest such a "being" exists, thus no belief.

BTW - Welcome to DU!


-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale

[NGC_6822]

36. Definition of an atheist

According to my Oxford dictionary that I'm holding in my hand:

a.the.ism
n, belief that God does not exist.

It's a simple definition that says everything and doesn't require any further embellishment.

I studied this definition from dictionaries a long time ago, and that's when I recognized that to be true to myself, I had to move from an agnostic position to an atheist position. Many people want to attach a stigma to this word; but it's not a bad word. It simply defines a belief and should be taken in that way without any other connotations. Some may want to elaborate and attempt to prove their religious or atheist beliefs, but such an exercise is ultimately futile.

[Synnical]

38. Are you referring to the OED on some other Oxford dic?

'Cause you're not making that clear. And I just love that you with 20 posts and the other poster with 17 posts are attempting to define that for which I hold no "belief".

And also to mention, the OED is a beautiful dic that lists many definitions, but is careful to update, according to recent usages, and you're only listing one definition? And is that the number one definition?

My life, my non-belief, is not an exercise, nor futile. You are wrong, end of story. And I will not get into a flame war with you, which is exactly what you want so that this thread will be locked. Not going to play your game.

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale

Edit for typo

Edit again - just realized it's the same poster spewing nonsense. My bad.

[NGC_6822]

45. Merriam Webster

The definition that I gave was the only one on my Oxford dictionary; but just to confirm, I went to Google and called up Mirriam Webster. It also has a single definition which follows:

atheist
One entry found for atheist.
Main Entry: athe·ist
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-ist
Function: noun
: one who believes that there is no deity
- athe·is·tic /"A-thE-'is-tik/ or athe·is·ti·cal /"A-thE-'is-ti-k&l/ adjective
- athe·is·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

I really don't understand why people are making this so complicated. The definitions all specify the word "belief." For me, the dictionary defined atheist arrives at his or her "belief" by examinig the so-called religious evidence, becomes un-convinced (as someone has already stated), and then takes a doubtful position. The person with the doubt may teeter toward the undecided agnostic position or transform into a more firm ahteist that would express actual belief that God doesn't exist. That's me. But I would never say that I "know" there is no God even though I have a degree in science, my favorite hobby is studying astronomy, and my screen name, NGC-6822 is a neighbor galaxy to the Milky Way.

Sorry, I'm going to bed!

[VeggieTart]

46. My understanding:

An atheist either does not believe in a god or believes there is no god.

An agnostic believes that it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of god. I once read that Margaret Atwood identifies as a "doctrinaire agnostic," meaning that she believes there are some things that cannot be proven or disproven.

Wiccans (and maybe some pagans) seem to anthropomorphize the natural world and items in nature, such as the moon or trees. I figure you get a better response from the moon than from the Judeo-Christian "god" who needs endless ass-kissing. You at least know the moon exists.

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. From the Oxford English Dictionary

Atheist: One who denies or disbelieves the existence of a God.

and:

Disbelief (trans.) Not to believe or credit; to refuse credence to: a. a statement or (alleged) fact: To reject the truth or reality of.

So an atheist is someone who denies, or does not believe in, or credit, or refuses credence to the existence of a God.

A quoted example: "1709 SHAFTESBURY Charac. I. I. §2 (1737) II. 11 To believe nothing of a designing Principle or Mind, nor any Cause, Measure, or Rule of Things, but Chance..is to be a perfect Atheist."

There's 300 years behind that usage.

And from my Concise Oxford Dictionary, Fifth Edition:

atheism: Disbelief in the existence of a God; godlessness.

Which version and edition are you using?

[Synnical]

79. Thanks for this, n/t

[NGC_6822]

86. Belief--disbelief

I'm using an Oxford dictionary that I downloaded onto my PDA. To check the possibility that it might be incomplete, I checked the Miriam-Webster on the Internet which I showed above and it confirmed my Oxford.

For me, the definition that you found is also consistent. "I believe there is no god." seems to say exactly the same thing as, "I have a disbelief in God."

Someone in this thread indicated that there was a problem counting atheists because there are so many definitions. I say this is not a problem. There is one simple definition in all the dictionaries that can include all atheists regardless of the intensity of their conviction. Similarly, we could theoretically count how many religious people there are regardless of whether they are Christians, Jews or Muslims. Atheism is a generic term just like a religion is.

There is a big difference for me, though, between "believing" there is no god and "knowing" there is no god.

If someone tells me that Zeus tows the sun across the sky each day behind his chariot, I will unabashedly say, "I know that god does not exist!" But, when I am confronted with the current monotheist concept of god, I must use the retort, "I don't believe your god exists."

Why must I do this? The answer is simply that I have no way to prove that the monotheist god doesn't exist no matter how strong the circumstantial evidence is in my assessment. If Christ was really the son of God, I think he should have been 12 feet tall; this would be a small feat for a god that was able to impregnate a virgin. On the other hand, the current standard theory of physics is based on four dimensions, but some problems in physics can't be explained with this model. The deepest thinking theoretical physicists in the world are working on models that contain up to eleven dimensions, but we cannot see these, and we don't know what they are for. Maybe God is hiding in there. I'm 99.999....10 to the 30th power decimal places sure that he is not, but I am forced to say I don't know. This is one example among many of why the definition of atheism is tipped toward belief (or non-belief).

I'm going to bed.

[muriel_volestrangler]

90. But the difference between belief and non-belief can be important

because of the way a few Christians try to use definitions of 'belief' and 'faith' to insert their own religion into public life. They claim that atheism is a 'belief', and then they they say it's a 'faith', and then they say that a secular society (that is, one which doesn't mention any particular set of gods) is actually supporting "the atheist faith" - and so they start demanding equal time with the real world, teaching of creationism or intelligent design, and so on. Part of the problem is that those kind of Christians may well have chosen it on the grounds that it sounds 'nice' to them - it's what they want to believe is true - and they think that atheists have similarly decided a universe with no God (and those kind of people probably don't consider, say, the Hindu alternative) would be preferable for themselves, without realising that atheists (all the ones I know, anyway) hold their views because they've looked at reality, and come to a conculsion.

The overall definition of atheism is "not believing in gods". That does cover both people who consider that all the gods so far proposed have no decent evidence for them, and that there isn't a need for a god to explain the universe, and those who are sure there can never be anything that could be described as a god.

"I believe there is no god." seems to say exactly the same thing as, "I have a disbelief in God."

I disagree. 'Belief' is a word with several shades of meaning in English, and that can cause problems, which is why I don't think the two versions mean exactly the same thing. If you said "I consider there is no god", then I'd agree it means the same as "I don't consider there is a god". But "I have faith there is no god" doesn't mean the same as "I don't have a faith there is a god". "Having faith", and also one possible definition of 'belief', means trusting some abstract (or concrete) entity.

When one gets into metaphysical territory, one may say "we all have faith that our existence as humans is real", or "we all have faith that the laws of physics that applied yesterday will apply tomorrow", but that is as far as "faith that there is no god" goes.

[Synnical]

65. We aths and ags have been trying to correct dictionary definitions

See here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=263&topic_id=14218&mesg_id=14218

And here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=263&topic_id=18869&mesg_id=18869

We've been labeled as immoral, thus we're in a bit of pissy mood about that.

But, we don't "believe". We just hold no belief in "gods".

Could you provide a universal, accepted definition of what a "god" is so that I might look for evidence of such a thing?

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale

[genie_weenie]

70. It's no use, he's gone...

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Isaiah6.9

That is for NGC_6822

[Finder]

60. I don't think that was the poster's intention...

and although I agree with you regarding the definition of atheism,(lack of belief)many atheists have no problem saying "I believe there is no god"--including myself.

[genie_weenie]

39. NGC_6822, you are looking at it backwards.

Think Russell's undetectable teapot. The onus does not rely upon me to prove to Theists that their untestable, undetectable, all powerful God does not exist. It is up to those who assert there is a God to prove he does...

The default status is no God. And several thousands of years of philosophical (and sometimes scientific) assertions have not produced tangible evidence.

Edit: to clarify.

[Synnical]

40. Hi - dd you reply to the wrong post?

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale.

[genie_weenie]

42. Ummm. I don't think so

I though I replied to NGC (20 posts) who is, basically, asserting Atheism is logically equivalent to all other religious positions, requiring faith in an unprovable assertion.

But, if I messed up sorry. :hi:

[Subdivisions]

73. NGC_6822 backwards? How about this:

Barnard's Galaxy - NGC 6822

[NGC_6822]

84. Homesick

Thanks! I get so homesick when I see that photo.

[riderinthestorm]

34. Oh god no, not the "definitions" thing

Atheists don't believe in any deity. There's no belief in atheism.

It's like saying wearing no shoes is akin to wearing footwear, like going barefoot is some kind of shoe. Religious belief is something that is applied to a human, an indoctrination by society or culture or family.

Atheists don't believe in the myths that have been generated by humans. They just acknowledge that there isn't any imaginary character who requires a bunch of dogma, ritual, clothing or worship in order to keep the world running.

[Synnical]

35. Apparently, it must be repeated, again and again!

And again!

:banghead:

[Zhade]

37. False. Only strong atheists believe that.

The rest of us just aren't convinced any exist; we're not stating that we know there are no gods.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

89. I am agnostic... really.

it's not that a 'god' is not possible, it's just that I have never seen any evidence that says yes or no. just maybes. :shrug:

[Ian David]

27. We've already had non-christian and non-theist presidents. n/t

[PurityOfEssence]

74. You won't be

Fantasy selfishness will hold sway.

Those who question Santa will be so marginalized that their voices will hardly be heard.

[Erika]

3. I had a discussion with a co-worker who said they coudn't

survive without knowing there was a "higher power". I let it go. What does their survival have to do with a higher power? They think they'll drop over dead without it, or what?

[Warren DeMontague]

5. Who cares.

What goes on in other people's heads is their business. More power to 'em. Even if I thought what works for me would work for everyone else, I'm far too fucking busy to spend all my time trying to proseltyze/enlighten the rest of the species.

I don't let other people tell me what to think, so I try to extend the same courtesy back to them. You were right to let it go.

[Synnical]

7. Well, that's nasty

One can try, be it, nicely. Thanks, though for your thoughts. Appreciate it.

[Warren DeMontague]

14. Wasn't intended to be nasty.

Perhaps I phrased it wrong.

[skyblue]

25. I watch NBC's "The Office" and the wierd girl is the religious one. Where

I work the wierd girl is the non-christian one. Can't discuss the religion thing. Have seen plenty of notices for religious activities. Doesn't bother me that much, but then I remember the anti-women, anti-gay policies and have to just shrug it off.

[Old and In the Way]

9. I think it's a psychological crutch for many people.

Believing there is an afterlife helps them to make it through their daily existance. I think many people would go insane without this construct of reality to create a purposeful meaning. Guys like Falwell and Robertson figured this out a long time ago and developed a very lucrative Jesus franchise to con people out of their hard earned $.

[Megahurtz]

50. And guys like Falwell and Robertson

are turning more people into Atheists.

[KittyWampus]

75. I think athiesm is a kind of crutch for some. Insisting the physical world

is all there ends up being their means of attempting to control that which they are too frightened to explore.

[riderinthestorm]

85. Laughable.

From an atheist who spent decades exploring evangelical religions, mystics, orthodox mainstream (and not so mainstream), native american spirituality, myths, and more. Every atheist I know is more well versed in spiritual text and experience than you could ever dream of my friend. I find it deeply insulting that you could even imply that atheists are just too damn frightened of "god"....

I can quote you any spiritual text, from my experience as one with a photographic memory, and one who truly, deeply explored spirituality... there's no fright there, there's just nothing.

You can cling to your myths but I prefer the reality based existence, thank you very much.

There is no "god" out there, sweet dreams little one.

[rhiannon55]

10. I think they're stuck on the ideas of heaven and hell

They fear hell and eagerly anticipate heaven. They think that without an afterlife they have nothing to live for now. Very convoluted "logic", but it seems to work for them. O8) :shrug: :evilfrown:

[Union Thug]

11. and this cripples their desire to build a better world...

This pie in the sky bullshit helps them accept injustice instead of rallying aggressively against it. I almost had a coronary after a woman told my wife that she should accept the crap that was going on in her workplace, because "god will punish those kind of people."

God will punish. WHat a load of crap. So we are supposed to just happily accept life the way it is and God will mete out justice. Marx was right about religion.

[stopbush]

19. The same may be said of the Horatio Alger myth of the American Dream.

"This pie in the sky bullshit helps them accept injustice instead of rallying aggressively against it." Yep. I know many, many
people who keep mum on social injustice because they truly believe that their fortune is just around the corner. They don't want
to tax the rich or rock the boat because they believe the myth that THEY will soon be in that elite 1%. They believe that higher
(or, fair share, as I like to say) taxes on the rich NOW will somehow impact them tomorrow. Dream on, people, dream on.

I've read polls in the past where people making a decent middle class living ($150k per year) think that they're in that elite 1%. Why?
Because ultimately, we compare ourselves and our standard of living to our next-door neighbors, not to Bill Gates and Warren Buffet.
Since we can always find somebody on our street who is worse off than are we, it's easy to feel that we're in that "elite" class of
Americans. We look at our boilerplate 401k plans and marvel that we're part of the "investor class" while the truth is that most of us are
just a few missed pay checks away from financial disaster.

In the USA, fundamentalist Xians are suckers for these myths. myths that are actually two sides to the same coin, myths that serve to
cripple their connection to reality while empowering those already in power.

Sad stuff.

[Union Thug]

20. Well said! n/t

[upi402]

88. Well put n/t

[Megahurtz]

54. "God will punish". That's so Fucking Rude.

That's exactly like the RePuklican mentality crap that "you get what you deserve". I've seen this mentality over and over again from Repuklicans, especially the "Born Again" Fundamentalists. They think that if something bad happens to a person then they must deserve it, or God must be punishing them for something they did. So I guess if a person is victimized in some way then the must deserve it! Makes me sick. :puke:

[Synnical]

67. Had the same conversation with my mom

"Cindy - why can't your Higher Power be the tree outside your house?"

Huh? I love trees and all that, but, WTF?

Yeah, my mom is a product of the "Twelve Step Program" - though she's going to die of alcoholism. :crazy:

[bullwinkle428]

4. I think the atheists were always there - it just took the in-your-face

fundie-ism to begin driving them to speak out about it...

[alfredo]

17. The American Atheist came out of a very repressive era. Maybe

this is a beginning of a swing back to a more open society.

[Warren DeMontague]

6. Good. It's about time we felt comfortable enough to get out of the closet.

No matter how uncomfortable it may make some other people.

We're here, get used to it.

[tomreedtoon]

8. It's not all atheist; there's a lot of Wiccans too.

I've met several Wiccans. I hold no particular like or dislike of their beliefs. However, I think a lot of them joined that particular brand of nature worship because they were offended by Christianity, Christians, or a Christian church.

I've known some gay people who went Wiccan for the obvious hatred Christians have for their sexuality. I also know a couple who had right-wing Christian parents (on both sides) who couldn't take the anger and fear their churches fed them.

Like I say, I have no particular attitude toward anyone's belief. But I don't think it's Christian beliefs that troubled these people; it was the churches, the organized religions and how they got involved with politics that made them leave.

[NGC_6822]

13. Mystical world vs physical world

The mystical world is destroying the physical world. The mystics (Christians, Jews and Muslims) all believe in the same God, but they fight incessantly about the prophet. Then, they hide behind the politicians whom they blame for not solving the mess that they have created. 21st century religious leaders are some of the most irresponsible people on the planet.

[newyawker99]

29. Hi NGC_6822!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Megahurtz]

55. Haha well said! n/t

[KittyWampus]

76. it's not the "mystics" creating ever more sophisticated bioweapons,

genetically engineered crops, etc.

I study estoric Christianity/Judaism. Neither I nor my brethern have EVER fought over anyone's "prophet". We basically work to develop ourselves to reach the level of those same prophets.

Wonder if your post will be deleted for making a blanket statement about Christians etc. the way mine SUPPOSEDLY was about athiests...

[Zhade]

80. No, it's people like you who think things like Intelligent Design...

...are science who are doing the real damage.

[alfredo]

16. The reality based world is not that scary.

[Demobrat]

18. The basis of all religion is fear of death, plain and simple.

It's a means that human beings have collectively created in order to help one another deal with just that. If people never died, there would be no need for the comfort of religion.

[Chulanowa]

24. Pardon?

All Abrahamic religions, perhaps. Myself, I accept the inevitable - I will die. I'm supposed to. Dying is a part of living, and is not something to worry about. I have theories about the "then what?" of dying, but I'm not about to go preaching these to people, for the easy-to-state reason, "I don't really have a clue".

My faith is about companionship with the world around me. After all, we can't live life believing we are a separate and elevated part of this world, can we?

Don't give me the "It's all about fear of death" thing. That makes as much sense as the fundies who say people are only atheists because they fear "God's punishment".

[KittyWampus]

77. The basis of athiesm is fear of exploring anything beyond the physical

it's the means that human beings collectively created to engage in reducing others to objecthood. It comes in handy when you're building empires.

[alarimer]

81. What bullshit

most empire-building has been done in the name of God. Europeans especially thought they were superior because they were white and Christian. Most evil in the world has been done in the name of religion. What war was ever started by an atheist? How many natives were killed in the name of God?

[KittyWampus]

93. You can slap the name of 'God' on empire building but the world view

that really is beneath that reduces human beings to objecthood.

What people say, and the cover story they give, can be very different from what they do and how they approach the world.

[progressoid]

21. Love Richard Dawkins - just started reading The God Delusion

Of course, to borrow a phrase, he's preaching to the choir!!

[K8-EEE]

22. Bill-O is on this huge "S-P" kick that doesnt' seem to

be really taking off....who the hell would be s-s-scared of "secular progressives" hello is that most of the founding fathers right there? Wouldn't it be lovely if Iraq went "S-P?" He really doesn't seem to be getting any traction with this bullshit.

[Beelzebud]

52. Someone needs to inform that jackass that America is a Secular country...

A Secular Country Founded by Liberals.

In your face O'Rielly, you sexual harrassing, knuckle-dragging, fraud...

[NMMNG]

23. Yay!

Maybe more of us can come out of the closet now.

[girl gone mad]

26. I stopped telling people...

I was an atheist years ago, because I was tired of the hateful reactions.

I told a date once and the guy literally started shouting at me, right in middle of the restaurant. Another time, a boyfriend's father asked me about my religion. You would have thought I just shot the family pet. He jumped down my throat about how atheists have no conscience and every charity on earth is founded by Chirstians. Another time a friend went into histerics trying to convert me.

Well, I'm out of the closet again. After speaking with a young atheist, I realized the next generation needs us to be honest and set a good example.

[malaise]

28. The headline is beyond misleading

How can a figment of one's imagination die?

[mikelewis]

44. Seeing as how that "figment of the imagination" will live on long after...

your dead and rotting... that seems like a sort of ironic statement. The "concept" of God will live on whether or not you believe any of it and it will survive you and the brief flicker of light you shed on the world. In time, you won't even be a figment of anyone's imagination and yet people will still believe in "God". The "figment" was here before you and will live long after your gone, it will affect peoples lives in ways you deny is even possible and yet there it is... living eternally in relation to your existence and yet you know "it" doesn't even exist. That must stick in your craw just a bit... or else why would you care at all. It must suck to know without a doubt that such a stupid idea as "God" will outlive you and have a much more profound impact on everything that comes after you.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

56. Actually, I think the Pythagoras Theorem will live even more

THAT gets me pissed. :mad:

[EvolveOrConvolve]

69. LOL

And how exactly does that make the existence of god a fact?

I don't see any fretting from atheists over who remembers them after they die, so your argument is a bit of a red herring...

[mikelewis]

94. It doesn't make God a fact...

"No one pours new wine into an old wineskin. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins. And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for he says, 'The old is better.'"

I'm not trying to convince you that God exists. You're either going to believe it on your own or your not. I can't force you to believe anything you don't want to believe.

Also, I never said anything about remembering you after you die... I was talking about the length of your reality. The reality of you is fleeting and momentary... while the "illusion" of God will last and last and last. In a very short amount of time, it will be as if you never even existed and without any proof of your existence, people may wonder if you too were just a figment of the imagination... though unless you make some sort of significant contribution, I doubt anyone will care. "God" however will never die so there won't be any need to "remember" him. He will live on while you are doomed to dissolve into nothingness... lost in a sea of time from which there is no escape.

After you die, there will never again be love and hope, happiness and friendship, honor and life... but the "illusion of God" will bring all these things to billions and billions of souls for a very long time to come. That is a reality and that is a fact that transcends your existance... even though, to you, nothing of that sort is even remotely possible. Like it or not, "God" is here to stay, "God" will inherit all that which you now claim as your own and you will be cast out into nothingness. That is a reality and that is a fact which obviously you accept quite readily.

I'm not trying to convince you that God exists. You are free to believe anything you want and interpret what you believe you see any way you want... but by claiming that there is no "God" and that what I see is not God... only a figment of my imagination... you are making assumptions without the proper insight. Keep this in mind, what I know to be God will last for your forever and even longer. Your non-belief will die with you and what I believe will last as long as Man has the ability to think and interact with others. You have placed your faith in dead things and I, in something eternal... that does not make me any better than you but it does mean that my belief's are more centered on reality than yours... even if mine are merely illusions.

[shadowknows69]

30. If he's not

he sure needs to slap the shit out of some of the people doing things in his name.

[Auggie]

31. Maybe people are just deciding to become more accountable?

Maybe they're realizing that in order to make a difference in their lives they must become actionable rather than passively pray to deities.

[KittyWampus]

78. Maybe people need to move beyond physical appearances where

humans are seen as seperate physical individuals living seperated from the entirity of physical world.

Maybe people need to reach for a deeper level of reality that goes beyond the illusion of physical reality and seperatness and towards Unity.

[alarimer]

82. There is no deeper reality.

There are the laws of physics. Nothing can violate those. Humans are not separate from the physical world. We are animals with delusions of grandeur.

[KittyWampus]

92. Not to get drawn into a verbal dispute- The Laws of Phyics emphatically

DO EXIST AS A LEVEL OF REALITY... a level distinguished from the changing Material World.

This is Plato's world of Ideals.

It exists on a plane unencumbered by limitations of the 3 dimensional world Materialists/Athiests BELIEVE to be all there is, yet it shapes that very world.

[daleo]

41. God isn't dead

But religious nuts have made most of us sick of the whole subject.

[mvd]

64. True

Progressive Christians have to set the record straight when they spout off, though.

[mikelewis]

43. From a Christian to the Atheists....

In my eyes, you guys are usually more on God's side than most "Christians" I know. Who cares if say you believe in Him as long as you love Truth and honor Decency. Your humanity defines you and serves God more than any words spoken by the most fervent hypocrite. You're belief doesn't threaten my belief in any way and I'd rather see the whole world follow your example than the example set by the Corporate Christians. I don't see God as some megalomaniacal dick who created the universe as some sort of twisted plaything and I don't blame you for your derision of "Christians". You guys do good work (not all of you, mind you, but enough to generalize) and I for one appreciate your faith in humanity.

[Marnieworld]

62. That was just the nicest!

Normally we don't see anyone reach out like you did so, on behalf of all my fellow heathens, thanks!

I am an atheist, but I think I follow Christ's teaching with my words and deeds than many Christians I've met. For instance how in the world is anything connected to the * admin Christlike? Waging war by choice, slaughtering thousands, robbing the treasury, Katrina? I'd gladly live in a theocracy if they actually practiced what they preached.

[mikelewis]

91. You are far from a being a heathen...

A heathen is someone who denies God. You don't even know who or what God is... you don't believe that you can even hear his voice... so how on Earth can you deny him? Sure, you deny his name and you deny the hypocritical shit done in his name but God is far more than a name. You deny a Religion... a club... a set of beliefs that seem to lead nowhere and drive Man to madness. You deny the illusion and you deny the manipulation of people's minds with that illusion by the unscrupulous Man for his own vain ends. To you, there is no God because you don't see him or hear him and you can't envision some white haired and bearded grandfather floating around on a cloud sitting in eternal judgment of mankind. The descriptions of God by Man and the things done in his name by all religions both great and small seem so ridiculous and unnatural that to accept that "faith" amounts to a form of mental slavery.

I don't know if this is how you feel exactly but this is how I used to believe. I used to think God was just a tool to manipulate the sheep and siphon away their money and use their faith to increase a person's power. I too "denied" God until I found out... That's not God. God is so much more than what Man can envision and is very difficult to explain... just as you are so much more than even those closest to you can envision and explain. It takes a very special person to be able to show people the face of God... to reveal to them how to see him... to hear him and do his will. However, every person sees him and hears him and every person can do his will or deny him... they just don't know that it's God they see and hear.

When someone tells you that you just have to "believe", they are telling you that you have to believe what they say God is and what they say God wants. They are trying to get you to accept their beliefs not necessarily God's beliefs. To me, as long as you follow your conscience... as long as you seek to do what is right and good... as long as you cry for injustice and rejoice over what is glorious, you "know" God and you aren't in any way "denying" him. You can deny the Bible or deny the Koran or deny the Gita's and still not deny God. These books are merely stereograms that, if you are wise enough to know how to look, they can reveal the face of God. { }

I don't worry about the soul of an atheist unless that atheist uses their "non-belief" to do wicked things and ruin the souls of Man. An atheist who does evil is no better than a Christian or Muslim or Hindu or any other person who does the work of Satan. Inversely, an atheist who does the work of God is a blessing to all mankind and will receive the promised reward. These books are just books unless you know how to use them to see God. It's sometimes easier to see God if you have the right instructions but even without faith in Man, God can and does reveal himself. But seeing God and accepting God and saying "Lord, Lord" is hardly a requisite for being Godly and I would never judge an atheist as wicked unless they had a wicked heart. Yes, the "Christians" will judge you deficient but I have a feeling God won't... as long as you do his will. To me, God is Love and you seem to believe in Love so you believe in my God. That's good enough for me.

May God's blessing be upon you and your family.
Mike

[StellaBlue]

47. I am an out and proud atheist.

And I don't care what George HW says, or anyone on DU, either. I am an American, and I have the same religious freedom rights as the majority.

Viva Richard Dawkins. He's right; theists are wrong.

www.richarddawkins.com

[sofa king]

51. Proud to be next on Rove's hit list.

First they came for the gays, but then they backed off because so many Republican leaders are gay.

Then they came for the atheists. Because generally you have to think a lot to be an atheist, so that rules out most Republicans.

[librechik]

53. heh--so there will be a backlash over all the "religious" crap!

no hypocrites ever deserved a comeuppance so much.

Welcome back, Science!

[Irreverend IX]

57. The only rational concept of God...

Is that God has the same emotional nature as the sociopathic six-year-old who pours boiling water into his ant farm. He creates a colony of living things, endows some of them with the capacity to reason, then gives them signs and messages to oppress their fellows, cut off parts of their bodies and kill each other in wars. It's like playing Lemmings so you can make them all blow up and march off cliffs. If you assume that Christians, Muslims, Aztecs, Hindus and other religions groups throughout history each received divine messages from some sort of supreme entity, it stands to reason that thia entity enjoys coming up with new ways to make his creations kill themselves and each other. "Hee hee, I'll tell these guys they have to cut people's hearts out and sacrifice them so the sun won't go out! And I'll tell these guys that wives have to throw themselves onto their husbands' funeral pyres! And I'll tell both the Jews and Muslims that they're my one and only and that they have to kill the other group!"

It seems that God has been growing desensitized to bloodshed and horror over the centuries, requiring bigger and bigger slaughters to get his jollies. When you consider the improbability of the Archduke's assassination, the Nazis' meteoric rise to power and other events that spurred 20th century conflict, doesn't it seem like some invisible guiding hand was involved? With the epic carnivals of carnage that were the World Wars behind humanity, I suspect that God toyed with the thought of nuclear apocalypse, but it seems he let go of that idea. Considering how close the US and Russia were to war, with so many near-misses, you'd think that divine intervention had to have occurred to prevent a nuclear conflict. Perhaps God decided that annihilating his creations so quickly would be a letdown, and instead he's decided to cause a slower, messier end via climate change and wars over the dwindling oil supply. If this is the case, I have no trouble believing that Dubya is one of his best buddies.

Of course, I'm an atheist. But if there is an omnipotent entity guiding the world, I think my theory makes a lot more sense than "Jesus loves you."

[mvd]

59. I think it's a good thing that other voices are being heard

The fundies have pretty much had the stage. I am a Christian, and though I won't change my beliefs, I and other Christians could learn some things. Some of what's being said in these books, I've said all along. I don't believe God is some vengeful old man - if you are generally a good person, you should have no problem getting the Heaven you desire.

[obreaslan]

63. The Kids in the Hall said it best:

"Yes, God did exist, he died. He was very small. Mystery solved. God is dead."

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qchmuSdK8SQ

[Cha]

66. That's the best reason for

atheism there is..the insane religious nutzoids wanting to kill everyone who isn't a true believer. Well, fuck that but I really wouldn't want to belong to a group that includes chris snitchens, either.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Synnical]

71. Not to be too picky, but it's humankind

Thanks.

[Subdivisions]

72. Fair enough. :)

[Synnical]

83. Pope turns to atheists to help restore values

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=5c699031-298b-4733-983f-64e692936845&k=77032

hmph.

[upi402]

87. backlash happens I guess

that whole woman from rib thing ...
:silly: