Reality based alcoholic poll

[Theres-a]

With all the talk these days about rehabs and demon rum made me do it,I got to thinking,how prevalent is alcoholism?Is it this rare,unusual affliction that causes pedophilia and racism?From my own point of view,I think it's as common as cancer,and these other afflictions are entirely separate issues.I think there are alot of alcoholics in america,and they are just alcoholics,not this or that because of their drinking.

[MrCoffee]

1. My dad is going to die from alcoholism

but i'm not worried about it. can't change the inevitable result of 20+ years of hard drinking.

so how do i vote?

[Warpy]

6. I'm sorry, kiddo

I've had family members die of alcoholism and it's not a nice way to go, especially if the end is caused by cirrhosis.

I have taken care of a lot of people who died of alcholism, and it's always been the same story.

Alcohol is one of the worst drugs out there, but banning it worked exactly as well as banning all the less deadly drugs has done: it resulted in more alcohol availability but at a higher price, the ritualization and social approval of crime, and the growth of criminal gangs that spread out into even worse ventures.

What people put into their bodies is their own business, and yes, some people will die from it. There is nothing you or I can do about it.

Thank you for a wise post.

[Theres-a]

7. You're right

I should have worded that differently.I am very sorry about your dad Mrcoffee. I have lost a few family members due to alcoholism.

[Beaverhausen]

2. OF course alcoholism is a separate issue from pedophilia and racism

sorry but I don't get this poll at all.

[Theres-a]

12. I agree

The poll was merely intended to show how prevalent it is.I'd bet my last dollar that there are plenty of racists and pedophiles that don't drink at all.These things exist separately, I believe.

[Warren DeMontague]

39. It's a convenient excuse, however, for "I did some shit I really dont want

to own up to".

[Ganja Ninja]

3. I have a friend with Hepatitis C that has a beer in his hand starting

from shortly after noon until he goes to bed. He's always been that way since I've known him. He's on disability now and his liver is going to fail before too long.

[Boomer]

4. Runs in my family

My father was an alcoholic, as was my half-sister.

Not too surprisingly (in retrospect), my first significant other was an alcoholic and nearly died of it before joining AA and staying sober for 20 years. One of her brothers joined up with AA, too, eventually. Her mother, however, died of her alcoholism.

None of them are/were racist or sexual offenders.

[CTyankee]

68. runs in my family also. You'd think that medical science would

come up with some kind of medication that would turn off the alcoholism gene.

[upi402]

76. just AA works

religion may, if the person is not a real alcoholic or just in early stages. Usually not.

[CTyankee]

79. BUt that a behavioral technique. And it does not work for some

individuals, who find that they cannot use AA and yet they must do something about their drinking, so they must look for other alternatives. Nonreligious people, in particular, are so turned off by AA's religiosity that it would not work for them because they wouldn't go to meetings.

What I was asking about is why science cannot find an answer in pharmacology or with some kind of medical procedure. I see it like say, high cholesterol. People take meds to control their cholesterol, if they can't control it through dietary changes. People who cannot drink normally, i.e. like my brother, can't have one drink, just keeps on drinking, are different from those who can, so I wonder what is it about their body's chemistry that throws them out of whack.

[Junkdrawer]

5. I'm told 1 in 10 are predisposed...in AA, about 1 in 10 make it....

Nasty business...

[Ron Green]

8. Addiction is addiction

and it's one of the conditions of life on earth, whether it's to alcohol or tobacco, refined carbs, shopping, TV, pornography, jogging or unhealthy relationships.

Seems to me the object of the game is to find a balance in life that does not go to far in any direction to the exclusion of other life needs, and to face hardship and fear with courage rather than diversion.

[undeterred]

9. My mother is a closet alcoholic all her life

and she isn't much of a mother.

My best friend is an alcoholic and he's honest about it. He's a great friend, but I am afraid he will die young.

[sandnsea]

10. You need a more than one of the above

I've got 1,2 & 3 - alcoholism is very prevalent. People can also go down roads they wouldn't typically have gone down in a completely sober lifestyle. It's a slide into deviancy that alcohol sort of greases. People do get drunk and do things they would't when sober, alcoholism makes it easier to construct denial systems that allow someone to rationalize behaviors. The alcoholism doesn't cause pedophilia or racism or carjackings - it does take down those normal barriers that people use to check their behavior.

[Theres-a]

15. Done

Thanks for the thoughtful post.I agree completely.

[dysfunctional press]

11. None of the above.

i don't drink, but it's not because i'm an alcoholic- i take medications that don't allow it(and i'll likely be taking them for the rest of my life).
I have a good friend who is a sober alcoholic- but i'm not concerned about the drinkng habits of anyone that i know.

[Squatch]

13. My brother drinks like a fish, but I'm not worried about him

He puts away a 1/5 each day.

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. Just lost my 55 year old sister to alcohol

It sucks.

I wish now that I'd done more to intervene.

Take that for what it's worth.

[Kali]

14. Other

I have a (an ex-) close friend or relative who is an alcoholic. I no longer associate or care about this person. Put me down for at least two.

[Lilith Velkor]

16. Not all drunks are assholes, nor are all assholes drunks

And by the way, nobody lives forever.

[hedgehog]

24. I have to disagree.

All drunks are indeed assholes. Anyone who thinks differently is in denial. Even the genial drunks cause unending worry for their families wondering if the person is going to lose a job, wrap a car around a tree or end up plowing in to a family some day.

[ieoeja]

26. Well, *I* am an asshole.

Ask anyone. And I think hedgehog just proved the second half of that statement.

[hedgehog]

27. Assuming by that you mean that you get drunk regularly,

get someone to videotape you next time and watch the tape before commenting.

[Lilith Velkor]

29. So you've met all drunks?

Geez, and I thought I usedta have a wild social life...

:woohoo:

[hedgehog]

32. Let's just say that every drunk I ever met met the qualifications.

I've met happy drunks and angry drunks, so I think I've seen the spectrum. Let's not get into the habit some drunks have of manipulating others into bailing them out time after time. I have drunks in my family, and I love them dearly, but they are still assholes.

[Lilith Velkor]

34. Have you ever met one who stopped drinking and remained an asshole?

Or one who got religion and became an even bigger asshole? I have, and that's what led me to the conclusion that "drunk" and "asshole" are different categories even though they usually overlap. Kinda like "stupid" and "Republican."

[hedgehog]

36. A lot of alcoholics will maintain that the things that made you

an alcoholic will remain unless you truly reform your life and attitudes. Case in point: George W Bush.

[Warren DeMontague]

42. For me, the things that "made me" have a problem with alcohol

were my genes and my liver enzymes, that's my firm reality-based opinion.

I don't think any amount of "reform" would ever change that. Nor do I think that my inability to drink normally had squat to do with some sort of "moral failing" (or "assholishness") on my part, or -for that matter- on my lack of belief in a Deity (which is where I break off from many of my fine 12 step brethren)...

That said, I certainly needed to adjust certain attitudes and whatnot in my own head before I could achieve anything resembling long-term sobriety. I'm of the opinion that addiction, being a problem at least partially in the brain, is particularly hard to beat using that same brain- sort of like trying to fix your broken hammer-- with your broken hammer.

Different things work for different people, certainly 12 step programs work for many.

[hedgehog]

48. I can't begin to separate the threads of free will from whatever

physical malfunctions make a person an addict. It's just that those I know who are addicted to the misuse of alcohol are adapt at using their addiction as an excuse to manipulate others to support their addiction. Too many think getting drunk every week-end is a cute habit.

[Warren DeMontague]

57. Certainly, an alcoholic who is drinking

is pretty damn unpleasant to be around, in most cases.

[Lilith Velkor]

51. It worked for me, sorta

I will certainly never behave in any way that would force me to sit in those meetings again. :scared:

But yeah, once I realized it's not a "moral failing" to be heterosexual, I stopped getting hammered so much...go figure. :shrug:

[Warren DeMontague]

65. LOL.

Yep. I'm right there with you.

Don't underestimate the power of the Lord's Prayer to keep you from drinking- particularly if you never want to have to be stuck in a room full of "I told you so's" who are saying it!

[hedgehog]

73. I remember reading an article questioning the efficacy of the 12 step

programs. I think the key in any case is a decision to change the way you're living. For some people, the 12 step program works. Others find other methods.

[Warren DeMontague]

78. Absolutely, But it's important to know there ARE other methods.

A lot of 12 steppers will tell newcomers that if they can't make AA work for them, or if they can't bring themselves to believe in "God", they are doomed to drink.

People should know that one size does not always fit all.

[Lilith Velkor]

59. What makes a person an alcoholic?

I tend not to use the word because it's used to denote people who don't drink any alcohol. So I use the term "drunk" for people who habitually get drunk.

I don't understand how Bush is a case in point. Like many drunks, he simply switched to pills and religious shuck-and-jive. He worked that reform shit all the way to the White House.

Wouldn't we all be better off if he'd wrapped himself around a tree instead?

[hedgehog]

66. My father always used the term "drunk" even though it's not PC.

I think the question of addiction is too complex to label it totally as an illness or totally as a matter of will. There is a certain amount of responsibility involved, but people who are apt to be addicted to something also need the proper tools to assist them to change their habits. No rehab program will work unless the person involved makes the decision to make it work. That's why the common mantra is that someone has to hit bottom before they will make the change. That seems to apply to whatever is involved: alcohol, heroin, food, cocaine.

[Lilith Velkor]

67. All we need is thought-stopping cliches

Heh. I should put that on a button.

[hedgehog]

71. That's his way of expressing the notion that those who drink to

excess, whatever the other mitigating factors, do bear some responsibility for their actions. Are there actions and/or medications that addicts can use to control their addiction? If so, they have a responsibility to admit they have a problem and take steps to resolve it. I think he was using the now shocking term drunk to break the cliche that alcoholism is only a disease. People with ALS have few options in fighting their disease. People with diabetes or depression can choose to let their disease run the course or take steps to control their disease by a combination of medication and/or behavioral changes.

[Lilith Velkor]

75. I agree with him on that

I do not agree with the notion that alcoholism is a disease in itself, it's a compulsive behavior that masks a deeper emotional problem, and that problem is a different one for each, um, drunkard.

I don't see how dwelling on drinking, or browbeating others into joining some weird religion, helps solve these problems. All I did was quit drinking, and draw firmer boundaries. It's a normal part of the young life of many young women, and there's no need to build a permanent identity around it.

JMFO, and YMMV.

[Sinti]

17. Other - IMO, alcohol and other addictive mood altering substances

are used by people who are self-medicating. The poison of choice doesn't matter, it's the end result they're after. Alcohol is most prevalent, because it's legal.

The booze excuse sucks... yes, people do lose their inhibitions when under the influence, but it's simply no excuse for feeling able to do something you would otherwise fear public ridicule over. I've known several alcoholics, a couple in my family, most don't use the sauce as an excuse for bad behavior.

I think pedophilia, racism, abuse, and the general ugliness of the world are more likely to cause addiction (self-medication) than the reverse. Additionally, mood altering drugs tend to reduce your dopamine receptor's ability to "receive" dopamine. So for addicts when they first quit the world is absolute hell, much worse than it is for people who were never addicted, due to this lack of chemical reaction in the brain. It takes many months to get past this problem.

We really need to work on the root causes of addiction, and the root causes of unacceptable behavior, but they are not the same thing.

[CTyankee]

69. Do you know why some inherit alcoholism in a family and some don't?

My brother shortened his miserable life with alcohol, which is pretty rampant in my family. I don't know why I didn't. I don't have much will power (or I would lose more weight than I have). It just seems that I don't have an addictive personality. I was able to quite smoking after 15 years of uninterrupted smoking with not much effort at all. And tobacco is supposed to be highly addictive. So what's the deal?

[Sinti]

72. There are some genetic factors with alcohol

probably having to do with the way you metabolize the stuff. Both of my parents were alcoholics, I don't particularly care to drink, but have in relative moderation the past and never had a problem. Been trying to quit the cigs for over 10 years now and just can't seem to do it. I quit for a couple of weeks, then I get so miserable I just fire one up. Got through a few months once, but no good.

I'm terribly sorry about your brother. I wish the doctors would study this more, so we can give more help to those with addictions. I think the dopamine study is important, and important for people to understand, which is why I brought it up. If we could open those receptors back up it would make it easier for people to quit and quit permanently. I've known quite a few addicts of various flavors, and from talking with them openly they all seem to be self-medicating. Something is eating them, it hurts, they take something that numbs them out for a while. :shrug: This could be just the side of the cube I get to see.

[CTyankee]

74. It's funny. I am the first person to say "I need drugs" when it comes to

any painful procedures, so you would think that I would be self medicating like mad. I ask for nitrous and for topical anesthesia with my periodontal cleaning and I have no shame in doing so. I want NO pain or discomfort whatsoever. So I am a baby about any kind of pain. I seriously do NOT accept the ineveitability of pain in anything!

I overcame smoking because I had a motivation greater than my motivation to smoke, and also I had social approbation against smoking working for me. I had a new relationship with a partner who would become my lifetime mate and he could not tolerate smoking. So I became a non-smoker! I was more than half way there anyway, but my point is that it was so easy. If the addiction to tobacco is so strong, how did I so easily overcome it? Again, I have little will power and I am lazy. I figure it must have something to do with being an addictive personality.

[annabanana]

18. I'm counting alcohol induced suicide in "died from alcohol"

[SmokingJacket]

19. Alcohol just allows you to do the things you really want to do, anyway.

It's a disinhibitor. It's not going to make you crave sex with boys or anything -- though it might encourage you to act on a desire you already had.

I know a bunch of alcoholics. My family is packed with them.

[hedgehog]

25. I agree.

Mel Gibson might have often had angry thoughts about Jews because he perceived them to be criticizing his movie, but it took alcohol to let him tear loose in public.

[Ariana Celeste]

20. Other: Alcoholism runs in both sides of my family, and

a) My alcoholic biological father died in a car accident, and while no one has ever bothered to tell me many of the specifics it was hinted to me that he was drunk when it happened, and that's what I believe. (It wouldn't have been hinted at if it weren't true, since people chose not to talk to me about it. Sigh.)

b) My older brother died in a car accident, got drunk at a party and drove head on into a pole- fortunately it was a swift death.

c) My mother is a codependent with an addiction- she's addicted to alcoholics. Every. Single. Relationship. she has ever been in has been with an alcoholic who is either abusive, or neglectful. I always wondered- why not one of the silly happy drunks? Maybe she just likes to be controlled.

d) I have an uncle who for years was not only an alcoholic, but a meth addict. Eventually he became schizo. He eventually kicked both the habits, but after years of being sober and getting his life (somewhat) back together, my grandma (his mom) died... and he got drunk at her funeral... and I am now very worried for him. She was his rock.

I have a couple of older family members who I'm sure their deaths will be alcohol related, whether liver failure or what, who knows? My Grandpa is one of them.

And last but not least, I started drinking around 13/14. And I know that eventually I will have to quit and never touch the shit again, lest I become like my family members.

[Omphaloskepsis]

21. I would consider myself an alcoholic..

I'm drinking at 11:11am.. Luckily I work from home. I keep it in my pants, drinking destroys my sex drive. I'm not a racist. (my mom is)

[ThomWV]

22. My Mother Died With A Bottle Of Scotch Laying Beside Her

I know alcoholism:

My mother was an alcoholic. She died at the age of 62; complete system shutdown, one organ after another. Found, taken straight to a hospital, dead 4 days later.

She was found unconscious in a shower, she had probably been in it soaking for two days I am told. There was about 3 or 4 oz. os scotch left in the bottle, it was on the floor of the bathroom of the trailer she was living in.

I too am an alcoholic.

I have not ingested alcohol in any form in any amount in over 10 years. I do not expect that I ever will drink alcohol again and I would not encourage anyone else to drink it either. My wife drinks wine, occasionally a beer too. I don't like it much but I don't say anything. Sometimes my son gets shitfaced. They both know how I feel about it.

My closest friend is an alcoholic. Its bad. The last time I saw him he was sitting on a couch in his own living room. His head was in his hands and his elbows were on his knees. He was mumbling some incoherent shit and drooling on his own fucking floor.

Before I dried out a bit I thought everyone else was an alcoholic too, not so I have found. There are a lot less alcoholics floating around that you might imagine. That is one of the many lessons I've learned since I stepped away from it.

[marions ghost]

56. sincere congratulations...

I have watched a co-worker go downhill from alcoholism over the last few years at close range. Nothing is sadder. This was a brilliant guy, a genius really (I say was--he will never recover his previous brain function) who had everything to live for, very successful by many standards. But he could not kick it. Now he has gone past the point of no return, where his liver is shot and his body is wrecked at a relatively young age. He is a shell of his former self. It is tragic.

You are lucky that you can say you are past it. Stay strong.:thumbsup:

[hedgehog]

23. I voted too soon.

I should have clicked the "more than 1" choice. People in my family who drink die in their 50's and 60's. People who don't live to be 100.

[Beausoleil]

28. I know several

whose alcoholism is affecting their lives and their loved ones' lives.
I know someone who got a liver transplant and continues to drink.
I know someone else who is so wrapped up in her acoholic paranoia and delusions that she will not contact her own daughter and grandchildren in Alaska because she is afraid that Rumsfeld and Homeland Security will pick her up because she thinks the Alaska State Troopers are after her; she rationalizes that she is "protecting" her family. (Obviously, it's possible that she has real mental/emotional issues, but the three large tumblers of wine every night don't help).

[RC Quake]

30. How about...

I know someone whose drinking is affecting MY life...that would be a yes!!!

[distantearlywarning]

31. Both of my maternal grandparents were severe alcoholics.

Both died from complications of diabetes (exacerbated by drinking).

I also have a friend who drinks a lot. It doesn't seem to be negatively affecting her work or family life, but her level of drinking seems unusual to me given her age and other factors in her life. I like her a lot, but I worry that she is moving in the wrong direction.

So far, I haven't said anything to her about it, mostly because the drinking doesn't seem to have any real consequences so far. But I do worry about her a little and hope that she cuts back.

[never_get_over_it]

33. I have a family full of alcoholics

My father's mother and father were alcoholics and many of his uncles
My father was an alcoholic
My father's father drooped dead at a bar while he and my father were out drinking
My father died at age 56
My brother drank like a fish when he was younger but fortunately was able to stop on his own
and there are other members of my family that I think alcohol plays way to BIG a part of their lives

Basically alcohol has caused ALL kinds of problems in my family - but none of these folks in my family have opted for a Gibson, Foley or Ney type of situation....

[rzemanfl]

35. Notice how many of these posts are about family members.

Then think about whether it is a disease one is genetically predisposed to.

I have been sober for 21 years, two months, and one week as of today.

[Warren DeMontague]

37. Oh, I know for *sure* there's a genetic component.

Absolutely. And I know it's physiological, too- I never processed alcohol "normally".

[rzemanfl]

41. Two things that are telltale signs:

1) Being able to do some things better with a buzz on than when completely sober, mine were trapshooting, bowling and pool.

2) When young, being the one everyone trusted to do the driving when you were all drinking.

[Ariana Celeste]

44. I can identify with (1)

(2) Well, I don't have a license and I don't think I'll bother getting one until I quit drinking.

Anyhow with (1), I play bass better buzzed, communicate my thoughts better, and feel 'normal' when buzzed. I was able to write better, imo, as well. Never mind that being social is 10 times easier- and not just because it lowers inhibitions, I have anxiety problems that make it hard for me to be social, even with close friends (on my bad days).

[rzemanfl]

46. Trust me, waiting until it gets "bad" before you quit is a lousy idea.

Spare yourself the pain, the night sweats, the unpaid bills, broken relationships, etc. etc.

[Ariana Celeste]

47. I know.

:(.

[hedgehog]

38. I think some people do self medicate with alcohol

I think that depression is definitely genetically based and self treatment with alcohol is a cultural norm in some cases. I thank God every day that I never was interested in drinking. Otherwise I don't think I would have made 30. Lest some accuse me of being a total puritan, my husband and older son both enjoy sharing a beer and I have no problem with that because they don't have any problem.

[Zhade]

55. Kudos to you and all sober DUers!

NT!

[CTyankee]

70. You know, I think it just runs in certain nationalities and societies

When I go to Europe I see people drink wine at lunch and dinner. I honestly don't know how they do the lunch thing, altho the dinner wine makes more sense (you don't have to go back to work). My Italian friends plant a bottle of vino on the table and nobody goes crazy but neither do they worry about their drinking. They wouldn't dream of having their big family meal without wine and they glory in it. It seems that in the U.S. if you have wine with your evening meal on a regular basis you have to have a problem. I don't get it.

[hedgehog]

77. It's not a problem unless someone drinks too much.

I used to know a girl who puched the corks into wine bottles because she always finished the bottle once it was open. That's not exactly what I would call being in control. It's the difference between being able to enjoy a bowl of ice cream and acting on a compulsion to empty every container in the freezer.

[TahitiNut]

40. I've been abstinent longer than I've been celibate! (Whoopee?)

:dunce:

[Warren DeMontague]

43. Then I'm happy and sad for you.

:patriot:

[Exiled in America]

45. I LOVE Alcohol... but sadly, I'm one of the lucky ones.

I feel more lucky than I feel "responsible" or "mature" or "enlightened" by the fact that I don't not have an addictive tendency when it comes to alcohol and can enjoy it responsibly.

[hedgehog]

53. I think alcohol is right up there with food as something that can

be enjoyed by most but abused by many.

[Warren DeMontague]

61. That applies to all sorts of things. Drugs, Sex, Gambling...

Which is why I'm libertarian on the choices consenting adults make with their own lives and their own bodies.

I personally can't handle alcohol, but not only do I have no interest in keeping other people from drinking it, I realize what a horribly misguided proposition prohibition was and always is.

[Johnny Appleseed]

50. When I drink I usually do get pretty smashed

but I have the ability to get by for several days without touching the stuff. And it's usually just beer I drink.

[hedgehog]

52. Get yourself some help, today.

1. You can't drink without getting smashed.

2. You are kidding yourself if you think getting smashed on beer is different from getting smashed on gin or vodka or rot gut or anything else.

3. How are you getting home the nights you do get smashed?

[Zhade]

54. My parents are recovering alcoholics, 16 years sober.

No, it doesn't cause those things, as you acknowledge.

[porphyrian]

58. I worked in convenience stores for years.

I've known a lot of alcoholics. They're buying the tall boys for breakfast.

[magellan]

60. My mom's death was directly attributable to her alcoholism

She was manic and a mean drunk throughout my childhood. She drank herself silly one night we went out to a restaurant, continued drinking during the meal, had an alcoholic seizure, and choked on a piece of meat. It lodged in such a way that even the ambulance crew couldn't remove it on the 20-minute trip to the hospital. She was in a vegetative state for 18 months before her body followed the death of her brain.

I was present when it happened, 19 years old, the eldest of three children. So was my dad and sister. It was horrific.

My brother is also now an alcoholic. My sister and I drink socially on occasion, but not surprisingly neither of us keep alcohol in our homes.

People bust on me for smoking. I fervently wish that had been my mom's only vice.

[Theres-a]

62. 10 other/none

I guess it's prevalent.Glad I'm not alone,but sorry it's so common.When I was still able to drink it was great fun most of the time.Unfortunately, I lost the ability to "have one or two".Then, I lost the ability to "not drink today".Thanks everyone for voting.One kick.

[StellaBlue]

63. My uncle died of liver disease and hepatitis in February

He had been a state trooper and then a narcotics officer in Dallas in the 70s/80s. :sad:

He was only 64.

I am finding lately that I am getting tired of drinking. Time to be Buddhist again, maybe. Ha.

[KayLaw]

64. My b-i-l told my m-i-l return to drinking

She'd been a terrible drunk most of her life then quit when s-i-l threatened to shun her - keep her away from the grandkids. All seemed to be well until she started doing the Rush Limbaugh thing and got lots of sleep meds, pain meds, etcetera from various specialists. She finally fell and hurt her back.

B-i-l and s-i-l were determined to keep her away from all drugs and got her a TENS unit. While she was laid up at their house, b-i-l offered her a glass of red wine, said it couldn't hurt her. I think that's all wrong and, since he's a doctor, that he should know better.

She vacationed with us last summer and said she wanted one glass of red wine every afternoon as it helps her nerves and back pain. I noticed right away it was more like three glasses and she wanted to start earlier each afternoon. She asked me to take her into town to shop then made it clear she really wanted to stop somewhere for a glass of wine. Though she claimed she couldn't walk without help, she somehow managed to drain the big bottle of wine when we weren't around. Another family member reported that she did the same thing at a Fourth of July picnic.

I called her two days ago around five in the afternoon and she was clearly wasted; I have no idea what she was saying. I feel so frustrated and angry with my b-i-l (who is not even her son). I suggested counseling or other treatment but he shot me down. He said she's too old (73) and can't be helped. Everyone listens to him because he's a doctor while I'm just a lowly housewife. Now I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop and wondering how we'll pick up the pieces. :cry: