94% (of minors) who ask get abortions

[Coexist]

from the St. Pete Times:

TALLAHASSEE — Somewhere in Florida, a 16-year-old girl just found out that the state courts will let her get an abortion without telling her parents.

<snip>
A minor can seek a “judicial waiver” so her parent does not have to be notified.

She must show that she is mature enough to make the decision, but she does not have to prove she has the maturity of an adult. She must prove that notifying her parents would not be in her best interest.

Since July 1, 2005, when the new law went on the books, 548 young women have asked for waivers; 514 have been granted.

more...

Thankfully, these judges are thoughtful men and women.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. You mean 6% don't?

That's fucking criminal.

[TahitiNut]

38. I'd sure be interested in seeing the demographics of those refused.

Is there a racial bias? An economic bias? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Quantess]

57. Yes, I am wondering.

If there were a racial bias, I would predict that we might see white judges not allowing white girls to get abortions.

[MADem]

61. I'm guessing they waited too long, but we'd have to see the breakdown

to know for certain.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

2. I pretty much figured that is what was happening

around here. Rhetoric and reality are not bunkmates.

[Coexist]

5. please read the entire article - it is very eye-opening.

when I first began reading it, I thought, "wow - having to go before a judge - and you don't know what kind of person that judge will be.

Here's another snip, so you understand how intimidating this process can be for a young teen.

<snip>
“It takes a significant amount of courage and need to stand up in front of a judge who is likely to be a white male and talk about the most personal private aspects of your life,” said Planned Parenthood executive director Stephanie Grutman of West Palm Beach.

Grutman said some young women have encountered hostile judges who have posted their names on public dockets, derisively called them “mommy” during hearings and appointed antiabortion attorneys to represent them. Grutman estimates that of some 16,000 teens under 18 who get pregnant in Florida a year, 7,000 to 9,000 decide to get an abortion."

[etherealtruth]

3. Certainly if she's NOT mature enough to make the decision ...

... to have an abortion. She must be assumed to be mature enough to be a mother(?) :sarcasm:

"She must show that she is mature enough to make the decision, but she does not have to prove she has the maturity of an adult."

edit: spelling

[Coexist]

6. wow - that is an interesting way of putting it.

I hadn't approached it from that angle.

[nickinSTL]

7. I have a friend...

who got into it with some protestors outside the local Planned Parenthood...

Her point to them was, "If you can't trust her to make the choice, how can you trust her to take care of an infant?"

[MountainLaurel]

22. Well, I think their hope

Is that if abortion is not a choice, then adoption will be, thus upping the supply for healthy infants that can go to good "Christian" homes.

[MADem]

48. Don't forget the CAUCASIAN in there!! They want those white, blonde

and blue eyed little rugrats!!! They don't want ones that can't "pass" as natural - born!

Of course, isn't it the way of these pesky teenagers...always mixing it up with the dusky one here, and the dark one there...just to ruin the grand plan of these folks, and "infect" the supply!!

Naughty caucasian teen girls!! No crossing those racial lines, if you're gonna get accidentally pregnant!!!

(Do I need to haul out that :sarcasm: icon??)

[DocSavage]

27. so a 16 year old page should

be old enough to decide to have sex or not too? The way current law is written in this country, a 16 year old is still a minor. If she were to go into the hospital for a tonsilectomy, the parents would have to sign the surgical permission, yet many think that certain procedures should be considered differently. If my 16 year old would think they are mature enough to make this decision, well, they are mature enough to get a job, pay for thier own car, pay thier insurance, health and car. Lets make the enlistment age 16 while we are at it too. Hell, saying that a girl is mature enough to decide to have an abortion, she is mature enough to join the Army.

I will always feel that a 16 year old is NOT ready to make this decision on thier own. I disagree with parents not being notified. Turn 18, we are out of the picture, her life, her decisions. Untill then, her right to privacy ends at the front door.

I want to be clear. This is not a anti-abortion rant. It is me stating my beliefs about what 16 year old kids should be able to do and not do. THis is how I am raising my kids and I would be very P.O'd if there was a medical procedure conduted on my boys or girls without my knowledge or consent.

[Lars39]

28. And if the parents will not allow her to have an abortion?

Making someone have a baby against their will amounts to slavery.

[DocSavage]

36. How the

hell does that equate to slavery. I am not saying squat about forcing someone to have a baby. I am saying that a 16 year old is still a minor, and the responsibility of an adult. A court, IMO has no business cutting me out of a medical procedure on a minor that I am responsible for. If she is so friggin mature, she and her partner should have known about rubbers. This whole discussion centers around wether a 16 year old has rights. In my house, not many.

[Lars39]

39. *You* aren't saying you'd force the 16 yo to have the baby,

but there are parents who would.

[etherealtruth]

34. I expressed my concerns in post #15 below ....

The consequences of an unplanned pregnancy can be so great to the young girl ... I, too, struggle greatly with minors having medical procedures without the express consent of their parents ... however, given the options that are presented to pregnant minors ... not having the option to abort the fetus is not in the best interest of the pregnant girl or society (not having the option is in no ones best interest ... whether one chooses that option is up to individual choice)

[Quantess]

58. So, if it's the parents' decision,

maybe a lot of parents would force their daughter to get an abortion. How do you feel about that? Are you still enthusiastic about the right of parents to decide whether their daughter will or will not have an abortion?

[electprogdems]

4. so are the 34 girls that

had to obtain parential permission ok, I wonder?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

8. I'm swimming upstream here at DU

in my feelings about this. If I am legally responsible for my child, I want to be informed..not necessarily consent, but be informed... if she is having an abortion.

I agonized over this vote last go round and have heard all the arguments times ten, but this is what my heart tells me.

I'll get slammed but sometimes you just have to be honest with your own opinion and emotion and decision.

[Withywindle]

9. Yes, but you would not reject or even kill your daughter...

...there are parents who would.

Not slamming you at all, I respect your own feelings on this. But not every young woman is lucky enough to have parents who can be trustworthy with this information.

What if her father is also the "child"'s father?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

20. Yes, some colleagues and I really

went over this scenario a lot and I made my decision this way: I know that some fathers have incestuous relationships with daughters that result in pregnancy, as hard and awful that is to imagine. And I think that the number is low. But the number of girls with parents who would, given the chance, be supportive and be there, is statistically higher. And I decided that to me, the potential of bringing the parent/child relationship into focus a bit in the higher number of cases tipped my vote. But it literally kept me awake at night for a while. I didn't make the decision lightly.

[Solon]

47. So you would sacrifice the few for a POTENTIAL to bring...

parent/child relationships into FOCUS? What type of convoluted, BS logic is this? Seriously, where the hell does this come from? I'm sure the many daughters beaten and/or molested by their fathers and mothers are comforted by this who "bringing" their relationship with their parents into focus.

:puke:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

56. In a word,

Yes. Call it BS logic if you want, simply because you don't AGREE with it. Oh no! It isn't YOUR opinion, so it has to be BS! Because of course, you in your infinite progressive wisdom are all seeing and all-knowing on this, and can weigh ever so magnificently the variables. While I, in pondering whether the sum total of parental support at a very difficult and dangerous juncture in life makes up for the minority of girls who have been victimized by family members IN A SYSTEM WITH REMEDIES FOR THIS IN PLACE ... well, I am just a BS-flinging illogical idiot.

And I don't appreciate your puke icon. I am as disgusted by you as you by me...believe it. Your arrogance gags me. How does that feel? I guess it doesn't bother you in the least, and that is where you and I are different. Do you win many folks over with that attitude? I rather doubt it. And you know what? That's what politics and political discussion are all about: persuasion. Because persusasion brings votes and votes change thing. This issue is one in my own hometown. A direct issue in my personal and professional life. Persuasion and even-handed dialogue like with MADem, might have led me to reconsider my position. And that is politics. What you are exhibiting is counter-productive on so many levels.

I used to think dialogue was possible, that opposing views could be shared civilly. Your attitude has convinced me that my vote on this issue, which I took incredibly seriously, was the right one. Because I can see so much of the opposition to it is knee-jerk and group think. Instead of discussing it, you counter with an emoticon that is vomiting.

I'd tell you to go finish your homework, but I have a strong feeling you have more age on you than that, and really, that is just sad. So sad.


Do you ever actually think, or do you just reach into your handy-dandy bag of talking points and pull out the ones you think will work best?

I will never understand this level of discourse, and I thank God for that.

[Solon]

64. I strongly doubt you would even consider changing your position...

as far as my arrogance, well, I'm not the one advocating for barriers to be in place that endanger the lives and livelyhoods of minors. I believe there should be NO legal barriers between an individual and their doctorand, to be honest, I don't care how old they are.

[Coexist]

10. People who are understanding and compassionate

like you, who would honor your child's choice, are not the reason that this law is wrong.

I hope you can understand that.

[Warpy]

12. What if being notified is also being notified that

your husband is the one who got her pregnant? What if being notified means that a daughter that's being used like a weapon between combatants in a bitter divorce means you'll lose custody because a parent who "allowed" a daughter to get pregnant is clearly unfit? What if you only get notified by the county coroner because your daughter just couldn't bring herself to tell you and wound up dead after an attempted illegal abortion?

Stuff like this happens, Grannie.

All parents want to be told, but it's not the system's job to do so. It's your daughter's job, and she's the one who has to decide whether or not it's safe to do so.

[Ellis Wyatt]

14. But I can see Grannie's point

If the legal system says that a person is not of legal age to make decisions regarding legal contracts until they are 18, and are not deemed capable of making a decision about their body as to whether they can have sex until they are 16 (depending on the state) etc, then how can that same legal system say that a 13 year old girl can make the decision to have an abortion all on her own.

Either she is legally capable in all situations or she is not in any situation, right?

I am totally against forcing anyone to have a kid if they don't want it, no matter how old they are, but it's the inconsistency that I'm supporting that makes me confused. I like to have a consistent philosophy. It' just a weird situation

[Warpy]

16. Of course it's inconsistent

Because maturity in one area doesn't mean maturity in another.

I had my head on straight when it came to sex at 16. My polics, however, were all over the place and I doubt I could have been coherent at all about them.

We allow kids to drive cars at 16 (14 in some states, still) but we don't allow them to go to bars and drink until 21. That's another example of inconsistency in the law following different rates of maturity in different areas.

Again, every parent wants to know if their daughter is in trouble and if it's the kind of trouble that can be dealt with by surgical abortion. However, again it's not the state's job. It's the daughter's job. Only she can know whether or not it's safe.

[Crunchy Frog]

19. If that's the case, then how can a minor child be legally

responsible for parenting another child? Who would you say is legally responsible for the resulting child, or is she presumed to have suddenly attained an adult maturity level upon delivery? Or what if a minor child wants to continue her pregnancy, but her parents want her to have an abortion? Would you be in favor of forced abortions in that case, since the child can't legally choose what happens to her own body? You end up with inconsistency any way that you look at it.

In my opinion, a person can be legally capable in some situations, even if not in all.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

21. Yes, those are all

real dangers. But if I am legally responsible for my daughter, then I believe I need to be in the loop. If not, then reduce the age of majority and let me relinguish legal responsibility.

The way it was explained to me, there are protocols in place to protect a child who is pregnant with her father's child. She just needs to come forward.

Of course Florida is on top of that ALL THE TIME. (yeah, right) But I won't argue that it is a Solomon decision.

[Warpy]

35. Did she come to you when she decided (or not, as the case

may be) to become sexually active?

Sorry, but the decision is hers, along with the decision of whether or not it's safe to tell you.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

52. The decision to become sexually active

was not hers. She came to me when she thought she was pregnant and she told me it was her father's child. That is when I brought in the social workers and the shelter. The story has a happy ending. She is now a colleague of mine. The father died of lung cancer in prison.

[Warpy]

55. Did she tell her father she wanted an abortion?

Would he have approved? What might a father who had already been raping his daughter do to her in that case?

Remember, we're talking about parental notification laws here.

You seem to have proven my point. The girls themselves know when it's not safe to tell a parent.

[etherealtruth]

15. I understand where you are coming from

i struggle with this ... I understand and support the position that minors SHOULD be allowed to have abortion as a choice ... but ...

I am the mother of a 13 year old daughter (2 sons, as well) ... I would not want medical procedures performed on any of my children with out my informed consent. I generally monitor the care my children receive very carefully ... with all this said, i guess it comes down to my responsibility (as a good mother) to develop a trusting relationship with my children so that I know they would tell me and seek my support.

My rambling point is that I understand your feelings (as a mother) ... as a citizen I feel this option needs to be available to minors that find themselves pregnant and do not feel that they will have the support of their parents.

[MADem]

18. If you raise your kid right, your kid WILL come to you...the law is not

for the kids YOU raise...it's for the kids who are in families with abusive parents. If you aren't an abusive parent, the odds are your kid would PREFER to talk to you than take a chance with a possibly denigrating judge.

It's not a question of slamming you, and you're swimming uphill because your logic makes no sense.

My problem with your logic is that you think this law is about YOU. It's not about YOU. It's about kids who don't have a parent like you, but have mean, abusive and dangerous parents with whom they cannot have an authentic and loving relationship.

If they tell their parents, they could end up slapped around, tossed on the street with no means of support, or maybe even dead. And they KNOW this, that's why they choose a stranger over a parent.

Can't you see that?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

24. What I see, Mad

is that in Florida any girl who is being abused by her father needs only inform a teacher. As I teacher, I have made that phone call and I have met the social worker at the shelter. And thankfully the child was not pregnant. But the father was arrested and convicted and is behind bars.

Does not the ability to simply have the abortion and say nothing to anyone simply prolong the nightmare for the child? At least this way, it forces resolution. A child should not have to do this alone.

My logic makes sense to me, and I guess a whole lot of other folks in the state. And believe me, this is ONE little piece of legislation that was hammered out over every lunch table in the state. In my school we really had a hard time with it. When all was said and done, most of us agreed it was better for the child to get into the system and get some protection.

[Lars39]

26. What happens if there is no abuse, but the parents will not give

their consent anyway? Are you condoning forced birth?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

50. If you go back to the beginning of my posts

you'll see I believe parents need to be notified. In the end, it is a personal choice. I just want to know, as a parent. I don't believe I have a right to either enforce an abortion or deny one.

[MADem]

29. What if the abuser is your beloved husband, son or brother?

What if the pregnant girl's parent is also a teacher or town worker? What if the teacher is an idiot and rats the kid out (they exist, those idiot teachers). Ooops...I don't think I'd count on confidentiality or the awareness of a teacher if I were a kid.

Or what if the pregnant girl fears that her parents will BEAT her or throw her on the street? Or simply make her life incredibly onerous, but in such a way that she's cut off from making any complaints? Every so often, we find the 'homeschooled' kids kept in cages, in the basement, in closets, chained to radiators...it happens.

Don't take this unkindly, but IMO I still believe you are being VERY selfish. It's all about YOU, how YOU feel, your "parental rights," and to hell with those poor girls who maybe don't know that they can call a teacher, or don't trust their charter school religious fundy teacher, or maybe don't want their "street angel" parents to beat the shit out of them after they are shepherded home, or don't want to live on the street?

I think a kid who stands up in front of a stranger/judge who might possibly denigrate them is already at the very end of her rope--she isn't telling her parents because for good reason she CAN'T turn to her parents. But you're wanting to cut off that very last, rare, avenue for her.

I just think that's unkind.

So, what does this poor pregnant girl do? She goes out and purchases loose clothes and girdles, and one day, squeezes out the kid in a restroom and tosses it in the nearest dumpster, where it dies from exposure.

And then she is caught, and goes to jail, and everyone points at her and calls her HORRIBLE.

And for what? Because she had no way out....

[TallahasseeGrannie]

51. Those are all valid points and sadly they happen

Now, I'm not too sure about the comment about teachers ratting out the kids. Do you mean when I report child abuse I'm ratting them out? I don't think you mean that..I can't imagine that. That's my job, to protect kids.

I do agree there are times when the child feels she can't confide in parents. And as I understand the FL law, there are remedies for this. There is also a FL law about putting an infant at a hospital or fire station... no questions asked.

I guess we're not going to ever agree on this one and that's okay. I've been around and around so many times on this issue ....

I think there is always a way out.

And lastly, yes, I look at law as it applies to me. It's all I have, really, my personal perspective. I have taught this age child for over a generation and I understand the system, the inadequacies, the problems. I look at all that through the lens of my life and I made the decision to vote as I did.

[MADem]

59. I'm talking about the Christian School teacher calling mom on the

pregnant child. That's what I mean by 'ratting out.' The uncertified dipshit in the fundy school who says "screw the rules--your mama's gonna know what a slutty little sinner you are, girl!"

Kids wouldn't humiliate themselves in court if there were another way out, if they felt they COULD approach their parents. Already it isn't a walk in the park for them, the way the petition process is structured. I think trying to deny them that one lousy avenue because of some sense of "parental rights" is just horribly wrong, and, as I said, selfish. They're two years shy of majority as it is.

You're assuming everyone is as good and caring a parent as you are, and that couldn't be further from the truth--there are a lot of shitty, rotten, miserable parents out there, and this law is for the kids of those people, not your kids.

But i guess we won't ever agree on this issue.

[KittyWampus]

45. Parents absolutely have the right to know their minor is having a surgical

procedure.

[Scout1071]

62. Yes, but I've known plenty of 16 and 17 year old

girls that were much better off not telling their parents. PLENTY.

[Warpy]

11. Any girl under 18 who is seeking an abortion

is being responsible for her own health and safety.

The irresponsible ones are those who think if they just ignore it, it will all go away.

Sadly, many of the youngest ones, eleven to thirteen, fall into the second category and need the more dangerous and traumatic second trimester abortions should she decide she wants one when she's found out or when she finally comes to terms with what happens to her. Forced childbirth at any age is appalling, but forcing childbirth on children under 15 is extremely dangerous.

[Scout1071]

63. Um.......

11-13 and I agree for sure that the parents need to be notified. That is entirely too young.

[Ellis Wyatt]

13. How bad

does your home life have to be that you'd rather go to a judge and ASK PERMISSION rather than just INFORM your parent?

Wow, poor kids.

[Crunchy Frog]

17. It sounds like the overwhelming majority of girls who have abortions

inform their parents about it. I can't imagine that going through that whole judicial bypass process is something that a girl would undertake lightly. The fundies won't be satisfied until large numbers of minors are being forced to give birth though.

“I have heard many testimonies of minors who have given birth because of the parental notification law being in effect,’’ said Robin L. Hoffman, president of Florida Right to Life.

But they still want more.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

23. I Have A Hard Time Believing That 94% Of Teens Who Don't Want Their

parents to know, would have parents who would be unsupportive to the level of it not being in their best interests to find out. Personally, I think parents should have the right to be notified with exceptions to when it can be shown that there would be some sort of danger or marked distress by having the parents informed. No way I believe it would be the case that 94% of their parents would put them in such jeopardy. I'm curious why the 6% were rejected, if the law is so loose that 94% were accepted. Makes it seem like any 16 year old can get the waiver then, without too high of a bar to overcome.

But hey, if that's the judge's opinion, so be it.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

25. One of the things that has disturbed me

about this legislation is that it has been used by political sorts (thinking about my workplace) to assign one to either a "left" or "right" persuasion.

I am generally rather moderate, but some of my educational concepts and social ideas are left of radical. But on this issue I had to break ranks.

This and going to WalMart!

[MADem]

30. Well, look at the case presented in the original link

That poor kid went through HELL, and had to go to APPEALS court to boot. It was hardly a walk in the park for her. And we are talking about five hundred and some odd total cases, not thousands.

It's no one's business, frankly. And the craven effort by the BUSH judge to screw that kid over, deny her the services of an advocate, and claim that HE felt her excuse "wasn't GOOD enough" is not unnoticed:

The young woman said she is a good student and believes the pregnancy would impair her ability to pursue a college education.

Her parents hold strong religious beliefs concerning pregnancy that she does not share, court documents indicate. Telling her parents about the pregnancy could permanently damage her relationship with them.

Judge Dempsey, a recent Jeb Bush appointee, dismissed the petition. She said Jane Doe may not be aware of the emotional consequences of having an abortion and did not demonstrate that she is mature enough to make a decision on her own.

The judge said Jane Doe’s fear of “shame and disappointment of the parents” were not enough to bypass Florida’s constitutional right of parental notice.

But in an order released Wednesday, in a 2-1 decision, the 1st District Court of Appeal overturned Dempsey’s decision and allowed the abortion.

Sorry, I think if it isn't your womb, it isn't your business. And the fact that ONE asshole on the court of appeals actually thinks that this kid's reasons weren't "good enough" IS cause for concern.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

31. I Don't Think They Were Good Enough Either. But To Each Their Own. n/t

[MADem]

32. Yer shittin' me. DAMN. No tongue in cheek, there, either. Dead serious

So....in your view, she's too stupid to make what you view as good decisions about her reproductive health....but she's mature enough to raise a child???

That's just incredible logic!!! It would amuse if the subject weren't so deadly serious.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

33. That's An Incredible Strawman. Next Time, Try Not To Make Up Words To Put

in my mouth.

I never said any of those things, so please stop the deceitful twisting of my words.

[hotforteacher]

37. Were it NOT such a shaming thing to terminate a pregnancy,

giving a good enough "excuse" would be a moot point. In the most ideal of situations for women of all ages, it would simply be a case of "do I want to carry a pregnancy, or not?"

Intelligent women and girls get pregnant, and quite often it has nothing to do with their moral faculties or ability to make rational decisions.

The most important thing for them is to have that SAFE and LEGAL option, and until I see clinics putting vas deferens clips on all young males to prevent pregnancy from the other side of the reproductive fence *coughcough* I would advocate for nothing less.

That being said, as a mother to a daughter and teacher of many young men and women, this is a daunting issue. I would certainly hope that she would be able to talk to me about an unwanted pregnancy were that to transpire at some point in her life, but I run a godless feminist home which is NOT where (I would assume) most of these young women are coming from. I parent from the standpoint that I am raising an informed child. I would gladly waive my right to know if it were to save another child from the possible ire and abuse of parents and partners.

I think that the gist of the problem of uniformed parents comes in the aftermath of the abortion...the virtually certain mental health issues that stem from guilt and shame, and the possible medical implications of such a procedure. There IS the possibility of sepsis and other complications that a younger person might ignore because of the aforementioned societal damning which could lead to much larger issues.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

40. Very Well Put Post.

Thanks for the mature return reply.

I agree with what you're saying. As a father, though I have two sons and no daughter, if I did have one I couldn't imagine not knowing she was about to go through such a thing. Getting an abortion can be an intensely stressful and emotionally traumatic event to most people and the younger they are the more traumatic it might be. Even if the teen doesn't realize it, I would think it to be imperative that they have strong parental support and guidance during such a time. Also, like you said, there may be certain things that need to be looked after that a young teen may otherwise ignore.

I think the parents should have the ability to comfort, guide, assist and educate their child during such a time, and it would be disturb me to no end to have not had that ability if I had a teen daughter that got pregnant.

[MADem]

41. You said her excuses weren't good enough for you.

Thus, if you were wearing the judge's robes, that young lady with the lousy excuses would become a mother, because she's afraid to tell her parents, and all this is as a consequence of her lousy excuses that didn't suit you as being good enough.

Sorry, but you were the one that said her reasoning failed 'your' test, not me!!!

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MADem]

43. Look, your statement that you didn't think (her excuses) were good

enough stands, and if you don't like your own words, retract them. You said: I Don't Think They Were Good Enough Either. But To Each Their Own. n/t

Your judgment as to the "quality" of her excuses, had YOU been the judge, would have left her in that same position of having to go to the appeals court. And were YOU sitting on the appeals court, your judgment as to her excuses would have left her 'up the pole' as it were.

So, without an avenue to get a legal abortion, she'd either have to hide her pregnancy or head to the back alley. Because, if you read the article, if she told her parents, she'd surely be forced to endure the pregnancy and birth, and likely be raising that kid, in a religiously repressive atmosphere, maybe in a forced marriage, lousy excuses and all.

If anyone's being "deceitful" here, it's you. You side with the judge that wants to deny her an abortion, and then you wag your finger at me and deny that this is your intention!

I'm betting your a male....

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

44. But I Did Not Say The Things You Falsely Implied That I Did.

You said:
"So....in your view, she's too stupid to make what you view as good decisions about her reproductive health...."

I never said that at all. That statement is taking my words and completely spinning them. I don't necessarily support her not telling her parents, but I never said a thing about whether she should or shouldn't have an abortion and I most certainly never called her stupid. You were using classic strawman tactics.

"but she's mature enough to raise a child???"

I don't know, as I don't know her. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. But this point, like the one above, also had nothing to do with my initial statement.


(I also have no idea why the mod deleted my original reply since it was benign, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.)

[MADem]

46. I never said you did. I said your statement, had you been the judge,

would have condemned the girl to forced pregnancy and forced birth, and forced parenthood, against her desires and her will. I posed a QUESTION and the precise question was this:

So....in your view, she's too stupid to make what you view as good decisions about her reproductive health....but she's mature enough to raise a child???

See, those are QUESTION MARKS at the end of the sentence.

But one does irrefutably lead to the other. Lousy excuse? Hi, New Mother!!!

Here's the bottom line. Your assessment of her decision-making, if you were a judge on her appeals court, would have condemned this kid to motherhood. You didn't LIKE her excuses. They weren't 'good enough' to suit you. You flat out said that. I Don't Think They Were Good Enough Either. Thus, this kid who can't come up with a good excuse for why she wants to take a particular path as regards her reproductive health would be "punished" by you, with motherhood, if you were a judge.

That IS the end result.

You can't prance away from your remarks so easily. Your assertions, had you been wearing the black robes, would have forced that girl to become a parent, just because you didn't like her reasoning.

I think the decision belongs with the person to whom the womb is attached. Forcing someone to have a child because you don't like their "excuse" for not having one is hideous, and it's as bad as forced sterilization or gelding. It's interfering in individual reproductive choices, and that's just wrong.

FWIW, I don't know why they bagged your post above either--I don't recall precisely what you said, but I stuck to basic rebuttal IIRC in my response.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

53. One last point, Mad

as you said, these numbers are not all that high. (requests for not notifying parents)

But when I think of the situation, I think that for each of these few hundred girls there are thousands who went to their parents for much needed support rather than going and doing this thing alone.

Yes, there are assholes out there...not that many, I don't think, who will throw the girl out, etc. But there are literally thousands of girls who have done the wise thing and brought parents into it. Is it justice to consider only the needs of a small minority (when we do everything we can to put remedies in place for them to begin with?) when the majority of girls/parents can get through this together better than apart?

I just haven't seen that issue addressed in the furor to regard every womb, regardless of age, as ...well...sacred. To me, it is throwing the baby out with the bath water. No pun intended.

[Lars39]

54. Ignoring the needs of the small minority can mean death or beatings,

mental cruelty,forced pregnancy,being forced to marry, having financial support withdrawn,a lifetime of poverty...the list could go on. These girls must be protected.
It is up to the parents to foster a decent relationship with their daughters so that they will come to them in a time of need voluntarily. You can't legislate that.

[MADem]

60. You just made the point I have been trying to make

This law isn't for the children of GOOD parents, it's for the children of shitty, rotten, cruel, abusive parents.

To take this one avenue away from a girl who has already been traumatized by a rotten and abusive home life is just SELFISH.

If you raise your kids right, with love, patience, communication and understanding, you won't have to worry about your girl not being able to come to you. If you raise your kids wrong, and beat them, denigrate them, abuse them, well, they have an avenue so that they avoid your wrath.

But by your last sentence you reveal you have a problem with abortion in any circumstance, I gather. So you're never going to understand or agree with any reasons for terminating a pregnancy.

[Coexist]

49. 94% of those who go to court get permission

not 94% of all pregnant teens.