An intellectual exercise: on "trolls" and voter turnout

[WilliamPitt]

NOTE: I am not calling anyone at DU a troll. This is an intellectual excercise.

According to virtually every single poll, overview and prediction regarding these midterms, the single biggest indicator of potential victory or defeat for the Democrats falls to voter turnout.

Midterms are won and lost by the bases of both parties, as turnout in midterms is always low. All the numbers suggest the Dems have a commanding lead on this score: the GOP base is demoralized, pissed off, let down and grossed out. The Fix at the Washington Post has the total swing between expected turnout at 22 points. That's huge.

So, if I were a GOP operative trolling this board, I'd reach for the one trick I have: try to depress turnout within the Dem base by painting a picture of inevitable doom and gloom. It's already lost, you see, so why bother?

This does not in any way diminish the very real problems we face at the polls, thanks to Diebold etc, nor does it make all those here sounding warnings about these problems "trolls." I'm talking tactics, and if I were a mole, this is exactly the tactic I would use. It's the perfect spot to deploy this tactic; forums like this are where the Dem base lives.

Just sayin'.

[JeffR]

1. Needed saying.

You're right.

[Joe Chi Minh]

64. Absolutely!

[trumad]

2. If you've been on DU as long as Pitt, me and others----

you'll see that this is a common occurence around election time.

I suspect that here they come---

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

4. Yup.

Their smell preceeds them. It's like a low-hanging green fog, rolling over the rise.

[H2O Man]

20. Though I have

not been here as long as many, I have certainly noticed the pattern of people trying to inject weakness and despair into the discussion.

[Gman]

45. They've been here since around Labor Day

I'm especially suspicious of negative genre posts from someone with 500 posts or less and no star. Some have sign-up dates of 04 but they still have relatively few posts, no star and are vaguely negative to keep from being tombstoned. I think they keep their accounts and only use them around election time.

[Imagevision]

68. --> Lieberman leads Lamont by double digits?!! this is so silly...!

The owner of DataUSA Inc., a company that conducted political polls for the campaigns of President Bush, Sen. Joe Lieberman and other candidates, pleaded guilty to fraud for making up survey and poll results.

Tracy Costin pleaded guilty Wednesday to one count of conspiracy to commit wire fraud. Costin, 46, faces a maximum of five years in prison and a fine of up to $250,000 when she is sentenced Nov. 30.

[gully]

82. Yes it is. That and "democrats = republicans" so why bother?

Or, vote green if you're a TRUE progressive.

[orleans]

84. (registration has gone up ...but then...it always goes up) n/t

[mmonk]

3. A troll will suppress voter turnout from DU'ers?

I doubt that would work. Not with this president in charge. I can't speak for the Greens here though.

[WilliamPitt]

5. Lotta people here. Lotta lurkers.

Who knows? If I were a mole, I'd at least try.

[mmonk]

9. Maybe. I was just figuring many of the lurkers might not

be dems anyway or maybe uncommitted.

[WilliamPitt]

11. Might not be dems? Might be uncommitted?

Yeah, it'd be great if these people were dissuaded from voting...?

I think you just made my point for me.

[mmonk]

13. I don't think I said anyone should be dissuaded.

I surely didn't mean anyone should.

[mmonk]

24. I was speaking about those that lurk,

respond to posts enough to get posting privileges and then get tombstoned. Wow, hit a fellow PDA member over the head.

[rasputin1952]

14. heh-heh...hope they do...exposes them and then I get to

help them back under that rock in the swamp they came from, a little warmer for the attempt at disruption...:evilgrin:

I'm not fond of trolls, they are somewhat challenged at the intellectual level; they are, after all, morans...:D

[trumad]

7. A few votes here, a few votes there...

they add up.

[Viking12]

44. Precisely....

When I was knocking doors for Kerry in 2004, it was pointed out to us that Gore had won WI in 2000 by just 5000 votes - that boiled into just 1 vote in each precinct across the state. The campaign coordinators reminded us that if we could just get 1 or 2 people to go to the polls, it would be significant. Despite what the trolls say, every vote matters.

[LSK]

33. this is addressed to a doom and gloom post earlier today

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2440070

[mmonk]

48. I thought about that one.

I just don't have the courage to accuse anyone of anything until it gets obvious (lest I be wrong).

[tavalon]

41. True enough

Generally, voter turnout during midterms is abysmal, but I suspect that DU's turnout for this election will approach 100% and the reason we won't make that is because somebody will have a flat tire and someone else will be in the hospital but otherwise we're all gonna vote. And likely that well over 70% of us will vote straight ticket.

[mmonk]

61. Thanks. The overwhelming majority of people at DU will turnout

and vote and those interested in DU as well most likely. A troll or mole I doubt would have much success.

[Hugin]

6. Voter suppression is a staple for the Republicans...

They themselves have admitted several times if it were a fair vote based only
on the issues they'd lose every time.

[Iris]

12. Yep. If they'd go to the trouble to send letters to people with "Hispanic

sounding names" to suppress votes, why wouldn't they do it here, given the relative ease with which they could do it?

[Hugin]

17. .

I always get those... Due to the fact, if you can believe it, I have a 'African American
sounding name'.

[Iris]

22. wow. We had a kind of related problem a few years back

Because my husband is white and male, the Republicans in our state thought he'd be interested in voting for some of them. We got tons of postcards showing a yuppy on skid row - his oxford pulled out of his khakis, no socks (although that may have been more of a fashion statement than a testament to his poverty), leaning against his SUV - just completely wiped out from paying so many taxes. It was sickening. I finally started sending the shit back with notes about checking back with us when they worked on their platforms regarding health care and reproductive rights.

[LeahMira]

86. Good for you

for sending it back. That works especially well when the envelope already is prepaid postage.

[femrap]

29. I would imagine that the repugnants will be

paying people to go online and troll. I think they do that anyway....they'll probably be adding to their crew with some temps.

[EST]

8. Generally trolls get attacked here pretty fast.

Sort of an immune system "trollophage..."

[rasputin1952]

16. LOL..."trollophage..." What a great nomenclature...

:rofl:

[madokie]

10. when I start reading someone talking trash and gloom, it gets the hackles

up and I mean right now and it makes me dig my heels in more, but yes you are right.

[MessiahRp]

15. It's not scientific but we should all change our icons to "I Voted"

After we hit the polls... and have a thread post where we check in to state that we did vote.

For all the talk here you'd think DUers voting against this regime would be a no brainer.

Rp

[mmonk]

53. We basically do as I remember.

[marions ghost]

18. point taken, but anyone seriously trying

to spread gloom and doom around here --will be hog-tied and left dangling over a cliff. With the polls where they are now, the only scary thought is that the Repugs retain control. That's enough to get most Dem/progressive voters to the polls.

We all know Diebold is a threat but I don't think any smart person is going to believe that means they shouldn't vote. Anyone thinking that wasn't going to vote in the first place. Most people are going to cross their fingers and play the odds and pray.

Bring it on...

[Hugin]

19. Storm the barricades!!!!

(I've always wanted to say that.)

[marions ghost]

26. Right

this election will be a clear test of the election system. Obviously all predictions are in the Dems favor and the Pukes are floundering in their own nasty juice. Maybe one day we can get a real election system worthy of a democracy in place. This election will give us a lot of information toward that goal.

There are so many barricades to storm...those with fighting spirit will be there...;) NGU & all that. I'm encouraged. Things are MUCH better than in 04. The sh** has hit the fan. Many are coming out of denial. Many are immune to their lies now. Many have had enough. This is the final straw. If there's not a correction now, then MOST people will not believe in the system anymore.

[Hugin]

27. I would encourage everyone interested in democracy to put on...

Their Sunday Best and GO VOTE!

That is what matters most of all.

=)

[The Brethren]

21. interesting thread

and good points. If there any dems reading this who are doubting whether to bother because their vote may not count anyway - well i can relate. I'm both an optimist and a realist...we have the votes and the anger on our side, however by the definition of insanity - if you keep trying the same thing and expecting different results (fixed elections), then you're insane. On the other hand, as much as i believe the past 2 elections were bought and sold by the repugs, I would still encourage all dems, progressives and p*ssed off republicans to vote because either it will be an honest election (the criminals involved will be too afraid to get caught this time) or not. And if it's corrupted as before, then as a voter you at least stand a better chance to push back and demand proof of the integrity of your vote - whatever way you do it.

But I believe if you give up and don't bother as the "trolls" would love I'm sure, then you have less of a chance to fight back. You can still fight it even without voting since the election will affect your life by law, but it will limit your options. Whatever you choose, please do not allow all those responsible for making this an honest election go unchallenged if you even suspect an issue of fraud. Especially with all that is going on right now with the bush regime and the crap they are doing and will do.

[redqueen]

23. Yeah funnily I don't see this kind of thing anywhere on DU.

Nah, never. 'Specially not lately.

:rofl:

[gkhouston]

42. I just thought

that October was National Bridge Cleaning Month. :shrug:

[wiggs]

25. Sorry. Nothing "intellectual" about limiting debate and opinion

On DU, I would hope, posters should be able to express an opinion and, if flawed, there will be responses that help flesh out the issue on both sides. Good for everyone, IMO.

With this kind of back and forth, I bet that for every one lurker who might be swayed by the OP (doubtful IMO), there would be 10 others who see the whole argument and are more swayed by the responses. Isn't this one of the main reasons for this kind of forum?

Thanks for the post, though, and appreciate the opportunity to present the other side!

[Kingshakabobo]

30. I just re-read his post to find were he suggested "limiting" debate??

What "other side" are you presenting?????

[mmonk]

35. Maybe someone feeling hopeless and gloomy

isn't a troll but someone who just needs propping up and given motivation.

[Kingshakabobo]

36. Fair enough.

:)

[wiggs]

46. Sure, there's those types. Then there are those who aren't feeling

"hopeless" but just think there are lots of pitfalls to pay attention to in order to win this thing. And there are those solid dems who have naturally gloomy personalities. Or those who have been disappointed so many times they've become cynics.

There are lots of personalities and lots of reasons why people post. The more the merrier, IMO, and let the chips fall where they may. Let them be countered, supported, discussed, mocked...whatever. Deal with the content of the post, not the reasons for the post....

I took the OP as an attempt to steer the DU discussion away from this kind of discourse. The state of public discourse is narrow and crappy enough as it is and we need DU to stay progressive, open, enlightened, unafraid, unlimited, and vigorous.

[mmonk]

52. Diversity attracts more people, more opinions, and more participation

in discussions (and also encouragement to participate in the political process). I know what you mean.

[sandnsea]

71. And then there are trolls

And those who refuse to acknowledge there are trolls or make up rationalizations to obscure the fact that there are trolls... can't figure out why.

[wiggs]

72. Didn't say there aren't trolls. nt

[mmonk]

73. Why not?

You obviously have something to add. Everyone knows there are trolls. They eventually out themselves. Be careful in accusations though unless you know.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

43. Read the forum rules again, buddy.

This isn't the US government, it's a private site, and working against the Democratic Party's electoral prospects is THE big no-no here.

[wiggs]

49. My point is

that it is HELPFUL for everyone to see the full discussion of ideas in order to come to conclusion that progressive and dem positions and campaigns are worth fighting for.

Every time a post with off-base interpretation or conclusion comes to DU, there are plenty of reponses that propose alternative views. Isn't this helpful? Risk is more than outweighed by benefits of full discussion. What is there to be afraid of? I don't get it....

Give some credit to those who visit DU looking for answers...they can read and think about both sides of an issue and don't only need spoon fed propaganda.

Support dems AND intellectual honesty....

[catmandu57]

28. My avatar says it all

I couldn't wait, vote, vote, vote.

[Hugin]

31. .

:thumbsup:

[lildreamer316]

32. Oh, thank you so much for saying that.

Been thinking it for about a year now.
To the point where I have retreated to my groups and the lounge to actually discuss anything, because invariably my point gets buried by other things.
However, all that does is strengthen my resolve!

[Horse with no Name]

34. You are too kind

Because I DO call them trolls.:evilgrin:
Even have some special graphics for the occasion.

[tavalon]

37. Actually, most all of the doom and gloom folks I've seen here

myself included, always caveat that the only thing that might work is huge Democratic voter turnout. I've been doing the Moveon GOTV. See, my thing is that if the folks who say Diebold can only steal close elections are right, then GOTV is the key. If I'm right and Diebold can steal any election, still if we GOTV and we run independent exit polls (I'm not too fond of the ones that change their polls to match the supposed election results), we will get firm evidence if Diebold does try to hold the House or Senate. We will have caught them red handed and we will possibly have the revolt that may be the only way to save our country. So, to me, and I've seen many echo this sentiment, the key is GOTV, even if the fix is in. I just haven't seen many (actually, any, but I could have missed them) say that we should just give up because the fix is in.

I do think we have a large number of folks here, myself included, who have a Cassandra complex and are trying to get their predictions down on paper so that if it comes to pass, they will have predicted it right. Getting it right, no matter how dismal, is like winning the lottery for a Cassandra.

Last I checked, I'm way too deep in this shitstorm to be a troll. I'm just a way unhappy Democrat who wants to kick some ass come November 7th but is terrified to believe. It took me most of these last two years to get over the Kerry debacle.

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

38. This ties into the thread you posted last week about "the fix is in"

But, voting in overwhelming numbers is the cure, not, not voting.

And be prepared for long lines and confusing new machinery.

Vote Early if you can, or if you think their might be a problem with your voter registration.

[Brundle_Fly]

39. If everyone who had the right

voted, or in turn, was allowed to vote, America would not be in the sad state it is now.

It is because of the populations indifference to elections they have been able to do such harm to the electoral system, voting machines etc.

Here in Canada, we still suffer from indifference, but we vote in higher numbers and have a good sense our vote counts.


PLEASE USA VOTE!

[progressoid]

40. It goes beyond the internets. We have to work to get ALL democrats out

My fear is that too many will assume a victory and stay home.

[Sammy Pepys]

47. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place...

...but I haven't seen much doom and gloom around here.

[omega minimo]

50. {{{{{{{Someone needs a hug}}}}}}}

:grouphug:

[warrens]

51. The glass is always half empty

Rove will always beat us, Dems are all DINOS anyway, there's no room in the Dem party for TRUE progressives, ladidadida. I'm so fucking sick of those threads.

[omega minimo]

54. There've also been lotsa fishing expeditions

getting well-meaning DUers to cough up all sorts of info with minimal input on part of the OP (who tend to have descriptive or "ironic" handles)


:evilfrown:

[cassiepriam]

55. Mr Pitt, facing hard realties does not make one a troll.

When thieves have robbed you blind for many years,
you just might want to consider they will rob you again.

The best way to cope with disaster is to face reality.
Then go from there.

[omega minimo]

59. + would be a BIG mistake to be OVER confident.

[cassiepriam]

60. yes, a very big mistake. We know what they are capable of. nt

[galloglas]

56. A # 10 rec !

The point is well made and should be on our minds. But, we should all realize trolls come in different brands, makes and models.

We all recognize those who come out with guns blazing. That might be called the standard "Major Bat Guano" Flamethrowers.

But I think the ones trying the tactics that Will suggests will be a bit different.


Indeed, "if I were a GOP operative trolling this board, I'd reach for the one trick I have: try to depress turnout within the Dem base by painting a picture of inevitable doom and gloom." is spot on. But, this type troll will need to stay "under the radar" to effectively work their wiles. Consequently, there will be no "guns blazing!"


In fact, I expect (and think I've already seen) a modus operandi in this respect.

It is to tie anyone who voices the real concerns that Will has cited above, about Diebold, et al., (as well as vote suppression, Voter ID Bills, etc.) to their own meme "Well our votes won't count, so why bother."


In other words, those Democrats most concerned about the Election Fraud and associated problems, will be the very ones accused of "trying to suppress Democratic turnout" by merely mentioning the problems we should be watching for at the polls.

In the Troll's logic, "If you say the polls are gamed, you are saying 'Why bother to vote'?"

That, when nothing could be further from the truth. Every ER person I know believes the greatest safety against Election Fraud is the massive turnout of Democratic Voters.

My advice?

When, or if, you see this tactic being used, immediately insist upon a cite. Because WilliamPitt is correct in saying that is the "one trick they have", at this particular point.

Just don't let them put the words, "why bother, they have Diebold?", into the mouths of the tireless people at ERD.

Make any trolls who want to fish these waters say it themselves!

[mmonk]

57. Not just trolls, but a mole, so to speak.

[natrat]

58. the underdog surges

so if the base thinks we have a huge lead and the scum think they are the underdog...just sayin

[zippy890]

62. Yeah but the elections ALREADY STOLEN!

:sarcasm:

and if it isn't it will be!

:banghead:

gets old, I ignore it myself. thanks for posting this

[Nia Zuri]

76. So don't bother to vote!

[NewJeffCT]

63. What about a person's natural pessimism?

I mean - I've spent my whole life in Connecticut. Our whole mentality is built around decades of disappointment regarding the Red Sox. Yes, they won the Series in 2004, but there were so many near misses and heartbreaks before 2004 that it's an ingrained mentality of expecting the worst. (not to mention that's it's not even Connecticut's team! So, we also have the mentality of being overshadowed by NYC and Boston.

Before the 2004 election, even I got caught up in the optimism here on DU. A week or two before the election, I even started a post that was something like, "Suddenly, I feel strangely optimistic" where I described my pessimism, but then said I was optimistic this time around.

Needless to say, that one flirtation with optimism led to disappointment.

So, while I'm optimistic enough to say that we will pick up at least a few seats in the House and Senate, I'm nowhere near ready to start formulating my plans for the Speaker Pelosi-Majority Leader Reid era in Congress.

[Patiod]

65. I tend to disagree

I can't imagine that even worst-case-scenario bleak-as-the-Apocolypse posts won't keep a single DUer from voting, from phone-banking, from lit dropping, and from getting out there and pounding on doors.

Not saying it's not being done, just that it would be totally ineffective. Now, if this were a general-interest political board, I think trolls COULD keep lukewarm Dems or Independents home. But DU? I doubt it.

My attitude is go ahead and troll away - it's not going help your cause any, and maybe it will keep YOU from doing something productive to help your hapless candidates.

[DaveJ]

66. DU the election!!!

Every time someone says 'DU this poll' we make it swing our way. With that klind of power we should be able to do the same with the election.

:patriot:

[ecstatic]

67. I think most people are willing to give it one more shot

before throwing in the towel. But what do you expect when Lou Dobbs does a show that features some scholar from Princeton showing how easily hackable the voting machines are? Is Dobbs an operative? Maybe, but we clearly have a problem with the machines that nobody seems to be addressing.

[smoogatz]

69. Interesting discussion.

What I think we'll see this time out is a huge turnout, with Dems narrowly winning control of the House, but losing the Senate by one seat after Lieberman flips, which he will if the Senate ends up 50/50, or 51/49 Dem. All of this will happen against a backdrop of electoral chaos, particularly in Ohio, Colorado, Maryland, Florida and perhaps other states with Republican Secretaries of State and a patchwork of voting systems. Many elections for House seats will remain unresolved for months, as contested results are ruled upon in various courts. Meanwhile, the lame duck Congress and Bushco will work hard to insulate the White House from investigation by a Democratically controlled House; Bush may even take extraordinary steps such as pre-emptive pardons for himself and other WH/cabinet officials to head off House subpoenas. In other words, it's going to be a damned interesting ride. And we all know how the ancient Chinese curse goes.

[MrPrax]

70. Troll? For What?

If the reason for the trolling is some idea that they will make Democrats stay home -- forget it...no real democrat or voter is going to miss an opportunity to give a shitkicking to the GOP.

If there are actually diehard GOP supporters wasting their time here, and not spending every waking hour getting their OWN people to the polls -- you guys will take the Senate. No problem.

Shit the GOP can't even troll their OWN forums anymore!!

When they get beat up on the comments pages of prisonplanet! you KNOW they are ...SO FUCKED.

IMHO (watching from above) the GOP is in much worst shape than Reagan '86 -- they got Cheney on one hand gibbering shit about victory, victory, victory, while his boss mumbles some mental patient crank about 'vietnam' and 'critics'.

Imagine, Mr. Pitt that you were an 'evil Kirk' in an alternative universe forced to slap lipstick on that pig in the Anti-TruthOut site -- your best strategy would be to simply avoid blogging about politics of any kind, post large pictures of undesecrated American flags and have a 'best kitten' contest!!

Anything to avoid talking about politics or even mentioning Bush.

:dem:

They got nothing to TROLL with...they're toast!

You guys are going to do great and will be very happy with some of the numbers from places you didn't win.

Just make sure you get your people out -- and hell even if you stumble upon a confused and piss-off republican, take them too...when push comes to shove and they are standing in front of that screen, they will say, 'fuck'em' and vote democrat where it counts, to send a message to little King George and the people running his party.

Now Get in There!

Fight! Fight! Fight!

:kick: :kick: :kick:

[Zavulon]

74. Who would believe that it's all lost, though?

I understand your point, but Freepers bitch about the Shrubbery all the time, that he spends like a maniac, that he won't do anything to stop illegal immigration, etc. Truth is, even if I wanted to try to depress a Dem with doom and gloom I can't think of a single thing I could use to back up my point.

[stepnw1f]

75. Nailed Them... HAHA...

hey troll.. did ya really think people were falling for ya shit?

[TheWraith]

77. Unfortunately, I doubt that most of them are paid operatives.

Rather that they're simply the sort of people who are never happy unless they're miserable, or railing against something, or feeling put-upon. Green voter types. The ones who don't know what to do with positivity, let alone victory.

[mikelewis]

78. Of course here in Ohio... they don't need to suppress anyone's desire...

to vote... they just purge them from the voter rolls. Why bother taking away our will to vote when it's so much easier taking away our right to vote. I agree with your assessment that this would be a good tactic by a mole but if a person isn't already exasperated and despondent over this election, nothing I say or do is going to change that. Though honestly, I don't give a shit if I'm despondent, I'm still going to vote no matter what... I plan on making them steal it... I'll be damned if they're going to win because I was silent. Even if the whole world thinks everyone in Ohio is a Red-blood-lusting Republican, I and those who expunged/denied/reversed my vote will know the truth. At least I can, in good conscience, keep on bitching... until, of course, I'm labeled as a radical enemy combatant and shipped off to Gitmo with the rest of you.

[Duppers]

79. THANK YOU!!

W.P., I've been saying this too.

It's in the same vain as broadcasting early election results.

[David Zephyr]

80. AARP's "Don't Vote" Ad and The Tribune's raining on voter turnout.

Ever since Newt Gingrich's cabal took over AARP they've been suspect to me.

Now they have a "Don't Vote" television ad, that drums the message Don't Vote, Don't Vote, Don't Vote with a little paltry "until you know all the facts" at the tail end which is very suspicious to me.

Couple that with the Tribune that owns the LA Times and its fascist sister paper in Chicago where they downplay the turnout in November signals to me that Rove is out to piss on voter enthusiasm.

GOTV!

[NMDemDist2]

81. well it's too late

me and hubby already voted :evilgrin:

and for the first time ever I live in a state that lets me vote "The Party Line" and we both took advantage of it

:bounce:

[tomreedtoon]

83. Point taken...but I still don't feel optimistic.

It doesn't mean I'm not going to vote. I am, and I can't think of a Republican I'd like to vote for.

That said, it's clear that the candidates and officials of the Democratic Party lack either the courage or the intelligence to effectively fight the Republicans. And there are certain reforms that are absolutely necessary - such as raising the minimum wage, ending corporate and media monopolies and caring for the poor and the disenfranchised - that they primarily pay only lip service to, when they dare to speak such things in public.

I think these are reforms that most Americans would agree upon, if there were Democrats who spoke about them with compassion, passion and even anger when warranted. But no one has. Maybe they're afraid of alienating big business and rich contributors, or maybe they really don't understand what it is to be poor and disenfranchised in America. The former indicates fear, the latter elitism.

I know that in Florida, the Democratic candidate for governor isn't even bothering to advertise in half the state - my half - and the Republican has all but called him a member of the Taliban and the cause of cattle mutilations. And the Democrat isn't even bothering to respond. Even if he wins, he's told half the state "I don't care what you think of me." And that's just a mild reflection of the other Democratic races across the country.

So, even though I'm going to vote Democratic, do you mind if I don't go around the forums with a big Disney smile plastered on my face?

[eridani]

85. Not advocating despair--

--just advocating really serious defensive measures that the Dem leadership actually follows through on.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

87. I wouldn't bother with DU

If I was a GOP operative I would troll Yahoo messageboards and Google groups for sports, cars, movies, TV shows, music - and religion - so I could scare a much larger audience about the horrible consequences of a Dem victory. Why waste my time with 100,000 or so Dems who have more or less made up their minds when I can reach many more who probably haven't, and have other interests competing for their attention? Just sayin'.