Next to Bush's blunders, who is most responsible for the mess we're in?

[tinfoilinfor2005]

It is a given that this administration has led our country into a dark abyss. But if we are fortunate enough to turn this around, we should also try to learn from our mistakes.

Without trying to play the blame game, I think there is plenty of blame to go around. My personal vote is for the media, who seem to blow with the wind. This week the prevailing winds are for the democrats and suddenly our opinions have greater merit than in the past six years.

[seabeyond]

1. i put cheney (other) but american people are close second

[NJ Democrats]

3. Seconded

but you know Spongebob is up there.

[sce56]

2. I wanted to put cheney also but the voters that never show up or register

They are the ones to blame the most for their apathy!
October 17, 2006,Will be remembered as the Enabling day of the 21st Century!
"The government will make use of these powers only insofar as they are essential for carrying out vitally necessary measures..."
~Adolf Hitler, March 23, 1933, before the German Parliament (Reichstag) as he urged them to pass his "Enabling Act"


Got Fascism Yet?

[Cobalt Violet]

4. Supreme Court for appointing * in the first place.

The American people did elect Gore.

[MercutioATC]

5. The voters. ONLY the voters.

We the people bear sole responsibility for the actions of every other choice on your list....even SpongeBob.

The government is made up of people WE elect.
The media reports what WE make profitable for them.

It all comes back to us, folks.

[frogcycle]

7. yep

ugly fact, but true. but it does not start at his being "elected" - it starts when we did not listen to Ike.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

11. Thanks for giving me the correct spelling for SpongeBob.

I fixed that on edit. Don't want Patrick coming after me. :scared:

[MercutioATC]

14. My ex-wife's daughter is 7 years old...I've watched a lot of SpongeBob...

;)

[tinfoilinfor2005]

26. Yes, I have a five year old grandson. Our mantra is

Who lives in a pineapple under the sea?

[MercutioATC]

29. SPONGE. BOB. SQUARE. PANTS!

:toast:

[patrice]

6. I goofed: meant to vote for the American voter, for being ignorant

and inactive.

Voted for other instead, please excuse me (for scanning instead of reading) and re-calcuate.

[frogcycle]

9. I take it

you were trying to prove a point? :)

[tinfoilinfor2005]

16. I will recalculate. :)

Just had a thought...had this been a freeper poll, I'm sure that the number one choice on the list would have been Bill Clinton, and he would have won hands down, heh, heh...:)

[pinto]

8. Republican controlled Congress. n/t

[dchill]

10. Blame the American Voter, if you like...

but it's their understandable trust in THE MEDIA that has led them astray, in large part.

Other than Olbermann, who among the media is truly doing his or her job, all the time?

[MercutioATC]

17. The media only reports what makes them money.

Their failure to "do their jobs" is the direct result of in uninformed electorate that would rather be entertained than informed.

[teamster633]

32. I had to pick the media.

I find it hard to believe that at least one major news outlet couldn't have "made money" off of presenting the real news. And since most news divisions seem to be losing money, their motives for playing stenographer to chimpolini must lie elsewhere.

[MercutioATC]

33. Even if that's so...

...WE elected the politicians they're playing stooge to.

It all comes back to us...

[dchill]

46. "...WE elected the politicians..."

We DID? Hardly. That's yet another OTC.

[dchill]

44. Exactly.

Thanks.

[boolean]

Olbermann makes them money....

But the repugs give them tax breaks.

[Greyhound]

50. Why do you give them a pass?

If they are ignorant, it is not due to the information being unavailable, it is due to their unwillingness to look at it. If they were fooled, it is not because there wasn't anybody warning them, they just refused to hear. If it is their desire to surrender their freedom in order to impose their will onto others, they deserve what they get.

Why is their trust understandable? It's not like they don't know that the media lies whenever it suits them.

[dchill]

54. I give NO ONE a pass - not even you...

or me.

The question was "Who is most responsible for the mess we're in?"

My answer is still "the Media." It is understandable that people without internet connections or cable TV might think that "news" still equals "truth."

Ignorance, not the ignorant, is responsible.

[Greyhound]

55. This is where we disagree. The sheeple (the ignorant in this case)

are aware of their ignorance and still refuse to remedy the situation. It is apparent in everything from HS grad literacy studies to Jay Leno doing those man-on-the-street bits, to the LTTE in their daily paper, they know they are ignorant and chose to remain so. In fact, they actively resist any outside attempt to alleviate their plight, going so far as to ridicule those that are curious and wish to improve themselves.

[dchill]

70. We "disagree" because you don't understand the meaning...

of ignorance:

Main Entry: ig·no·rance
Pronunciation: 'ig-n(&-)r&n(t)s
Function: noun
: the state or fact of being ignorant : lack of knowledge, education, or awareness

It is not possible for one to be aware of one's ignorance.

Perhaps you mean stubborn. But that's not the issue, either.

[Greyhound]

73. Thanks for the english lesson.

Seems all those years in college, the academic honors, the guest speaker appearances, were wasted. :eyes:

How you, incorrectly, surmise that it is impossible to be aware of one's own ignorance, especially from the given definition, is a mystery, just not a very interesting one.

If you read my original reply, I take issue with your "understanding" the sheeple's trust in television "news", particularly in light of the fact that anyone of them will tell you they know it is crap, and the medium itself regularly chastises itself, on-air, for being such. Boob-tube, idiot box, vast wasteland, any of this sound familiar?

We disagree because you think of them as helpless victims, I view them as desperately trying to deny the herd of elephants rampaging through the house, in order to continue our monumental selfishness.

[dchill]

74. "anyone of them will tell you they know it is crap,"

Actually, I don't believe that "anyone" of them will tell me that. In fact, very few of them would tell me that - even if they are aware of it. The "sheeple" - as you so rightly call them, are, for the most part, disinterested in the relatively complex issues that constitute Republican crimes in office. Combine that with the biased news coverage (which is neither news nor coverage) of the "incompetent Democrats" and the "War On Terror, Iraq Theater" misinfo, and you have a confused electorate. This is what I find understandable. I can't really conceive that you don't.

It seems that you believe that everyone knows that the news media is slanted to the corporate Republican side. I would seem obvious to me that only about a third of us is even semi-aware of that fact. This administration has refined the use of the media to a higher degree than I've seen in my lifetime, and I think that is borne out by the events of the last twelve years. And it's not getting any better. The Bush regime is going to have to repeatedly hit the American public over the head with it's sledgehammer of incompetence, greed and criminal intent before it actually filters through what passes for journalism in this "modern" world. And guess what... I still find it understandable. People don't all have access to the information necessary to make a truly informed decision, or to have a truly informed opinion.

And yes, I do think some of them are not helpless, but hapless victims of the "free market" access to internet and cable systems we have today - all set up, owned and regulated by (you guessed it) Republicans. Even I have had to downgrade my internet connect speed due to the cost. I don't like it one bit, but at least I know what I'd be missing. We are ALL victims of the so-called free enterprise, Republican style business market.

So yes, I partly agree with you, but I still give credit where I feel it is due, and that is to the organized crime family we know as the Republican Party. People should know better, they just don't. And I hate them for it, and they get no sympathy from me in that regard, but I find it understandable that we have an uninformed electorate - it's deliberate. Information and education, like those other "luxuries" - health care, drinking water, fuel, etc. is just going to cost more money than the average citizen can afford.

Anyway, you're welcome for the English lesson. Any time. We all could use something sometime. Sincerely - peace.

[BlooInBloo]

63. They're willfully ignorant - you deny that, thus giving them a pass.

[dchill]

67. There is willful. There is ignorant.

Willfully ignorant is an oxymoron. I have already said that I give no one a "pass" and that I merely voted for the media as the MOST responsible for the current mess. I still believe that. Does that mean I'm willfully ignorant?

I get the feeling that this is just a case of disagreeing just to disagree. THAT is willful.

[BlooInBloo]

68. An oxymoron? lol! Maybe in some language other than English.

[dchill]

69. See?

You are making my point for me. Thank you.

[babylonsister]

12. The 'majority' party; they blocked anything of note that could make

our country a better place. Did they do anything pro-active for Americans?

[spag68]

13. How could you leave out

Carlyle Group,PNAC, Bush 1 and all the ancesters.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

20. Yes, I left out plenty...

The Vulcans, the neocons, the Saudi family, the Bin Ladens, the fundies, Chalabi, Tony Blair, etc. etc. I only had so many spaces. I guess they would go in the space marked "other (criminals)"...

[PerfectSage]

15. Lot'sa blame to spread arround

I voted other for Rumsfeld and his Revolution in Military Affairs Doctrine. If your gonna violate the principles in Suz Tzu's, The Art of War; you deserve to lose.

[BlueJac]

18. PNAC

[razors edge]

19. Federal Reserve Bankers.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

23. Oh, Yeah....interesting.

How could I forget those guys? As well as the big money corporations that sponsor Bush and Co.?

Good Point!

[razors edge]

25. They hide in the light. n/t

[TahitiNut]

21. A democracy cannot be stolen .. only surrendered.

:shrug: Too bad we've lost that "do-it-yourself" ethic.

[havocmom]

22. The fools on the Hill. House and Senate both

They haven't done their job.

[leftofthedial]

24. wealthy capitalists

[guyton]

27. schools ...

for not teaching people how to think critically and tell the difference between truth and propaganda.

of course, we have organized religion to thank for that.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

28. Welcome to DU, guyton!

:hi:

My grandson goes to school in Indiana and his views are much different than the views from my grandkids who go to school in a blue state. So your point is well taken. Out of curiosity, are you a teacher?

[guyton]

30. not a teacher, but ...

would have loved to teach if it only paid a living wage.

But I've got a family to support (two kids in grade school), and I have this ambition of being able to help them pay for college!

Well, to fess up, I did teach one university-level undergrad course in CS years ago, but after paying for gas and taxes, I think I lost money on the deal. But still had enough fun that I would have continued if we hadn't moved another 30 minutes further away.

I'm actually very impressed with my kid's teachers here, but they're paid next to nothing and are too scared of losing their jobs to stand up to the bureaucrats running the district.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

34. Tenure is a wonderful thing.

But of course you cannot inflict your own views on your students. But then again, there is nothing to stop you, indeed, it is your obligation, to give them the tools to think for themselves. It's a great shame that people who were meant to teach end up having to leave that honorable profession to pay the bills.

My son-in-law teaches physics and science and drafting at our local high school. For years he was barely able to meet his bills. But get this...several years ago he started to coach the JV football team, and did so well that this year he was named the head coach of the varsity team. Suddenly there was more than enough money to go around, and the school was able to work around his schedule.

Funny how being merely a physics and science teacher wasn't important enough to give him a decent pay wage, but being able to coach football made him an invaluable resource. Not that we are complaining. Just seems a little unbalanced. :)

[guinivere]

52. What are you thinking?

Of course football is more important than science and drafting! :crazy:



You would think that it would be the other way around. Teaching science = $$$$$, football = meh.

[Quantess]

72. In all due respect to teachers,

Teachers are asked to do a huge job, and they have a million things to worry about, with little thanks at the end of the pay period. Their priority is usually focused on making sure the students are able to pass annual State and Federal tests. Teaching to the test.

No Child Left Behind (NCLB) has greatly accelerated teaching to the test. Teachers know this, most district supervisors know this, but government knows best, (that's why they're in government, because they know how schools should be run!) Bush of course, is the premier expert in education. He knows that teaching to the test is the best educaton.

[ourvoicescount]

31. Media for sure, IMHO

If it weren't for the obvious bias in the mainstream media, people would have been waking up years ago...

[tinfoilinfor2005]

36. See, I totally agree with you, because even though the american

people are to blame for some of the stupidity and a lot of the apathy, it is the job of the american free press to give them an unbiased presentation of the state of the nation.

I'm not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, but if I can see through a bullshit news story, I think most americans can as well. But if they keep getting pounded by a media with an agenda, then pretty soon people will start to question their own common sense.

[lpbk2713]

35. Limbaugh

I read in another post that OxyRush took personal credit for getting the criminal Bush regime selected.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

37. Yes, And so did Fox news, especially o'reilly.

And we will be happy to have those transcripts when bush goes before the Tribunal, or as my husband, the Garfield fan, calls it, "The Kitty Counsel!"

[PerfectSage]

38. If I could vote again. Karl Rove deserves a vote

As the person responsible for Machiavellian principles guiding the Bush presidency. I gotta laugh my ass off, that Rove never understood that Machiavellian principles aren't leadership principles that build lasting success.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

39. When I said Bush's blunders, I meant his administration in general

so rove and cheney are a given. But rove does deserve a special place in hell.

[ThomWV]

40. Paul Wolfowitz

[BulletproofLandshark]

41. I blame the media more than the voters.

If the fascist-supporting media were forced to show the truth instead of some false "balance", voters would be able to make more informed decisions. Even now, there's still millions of Americans that don't have internet access. Their ignorance (through no fault of their own) is compounded by the media's support of the criminals in our government.

[LeftishBrit]

42. Cheney and Rumsfeld at top of list; Tony Blair is pretty high up too.

[dkofos]

43. PNAC

[BlooInBloo]

45. Sheesh. They never blame the voting public.

EDIT: I missed the option in the list - my bad.

[boolean]

47. THE MEDIA THE MEDIA AND THE MEDIA

You can't blame the sheeple for being ignorant when they are constantly lied to.

[nini]

48. I agree... the media and the voters

the info is out there but voters are too lazy to do their homework too.

But the MEDIA is definitely a main culprit.

[Greyhound]

49. Gotta go with the sheeple on this one, everything that has happened

happened because they voted for it, out of true desire of sheer ignorance is, IMO, irrelevant.

[Pastiche423]

51. Dead Eye Dick

He's also managed to screw up my community.

[Beacho]

53. Other

You forgot to put up a choice for PNACers and other think tanks tha thave been responsible for the loony tune ideas that have been incredibly wrong.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

56. Finally, a vote for the House...good to see bugman hasn't been forgotten.

He did leave his mark. :freak:

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

57. The Media -- Ahead of Bush and Cheney

Bush and Cheney are liars and thieves. They were liars and thieves on November 3, 2000 and they are liars and thieves today.

So why should I be surprised at the their behavior? Fish gotta swim and birds gotta fly, you know what I mean?

The media was supposed to help protect the American people from people like them. They didn't just fail -- they aided and abetted.

[deutsey]

58. The fault lies not in the stars, but in ourselves. n/t

[otohara]

59. The Media All The Way to The GOP

damn liberal media keeps cheerleading for these incompetents - unfucking believable how much power they have

[NuttyFluffers]

60. duh. the media.

just look at history and the yellow journalism and thought/opinion manipulation that's been going on for generations in this country. there's only one correct solution to this question. remember, if i control what you see and hear, then i control what you can think about -- if i can control what you think about, then I CONTROL YOU! it is a very simple "if/then" statement so everyone can follow. you are welcome, you may end your discussion now and proceed with your life, preferrably to go to the nearest opinion-forming dataport and receive further instructions on how to behave. good day.

[Radical Activist]

61. reporters should be watch dogs.

Instead, the media became part of the propaganda machine to mislead the public.

[BlooInBloo]

64. They would be, if people cared enough to require it....

The media only puts out what people are willing to lap up.

As long as people are stupid, so too will be the media - and the politicians, for that matter.

It begins and ends with the people.

[stanwyck]

62. Our deeply divided country began with Newt Gingrich

who wanted the GOP to win - whatever the cost. Really. Whatever the cost. Newt wrote the book, literally, on deeply partisan politics. He demonized the Democrat Party through lies, distortions, and well orchestrated propaganda.
He had immense help from hate radio.
Newt played into the ugly side of human nature - sexism, racism, religious intolerance.
We're reaping what Newt sowed.

[BlooInBloo]

65. That's asinine. It began a loooong time before newt.

[boolean]

66. I would say it started at Reagan

He was the one who started the fundie power base. The fundies have been the biggest dividers because it's their way or no way, no matter what. They have GOD on their side, after all!

[two gun sid]

71. I blame the American people...

we have allowed ourselves to be played for fools by a half-bright fratboy and a gang of closeted Nazis.