JFK Assassination video, startling evidence you may have not seen

[LiberalUprising]

JFK Assassination video, startling evidence you may have not seen

http://www.fugly.com/videos/5835/jfk-secret-service.html

[FlaGranny]

1. Totally amazing.

Has anyone ever ASKED that guy why he did that I wonder?

Thanks for posting. Those films never cease to be horrifying.

[tridim]

2. Why haven't I seen this footage before?

Why don't they ever show it on TV? Does the Warren report mention it?

[lumpy]

3. Kick

for the truth

[tridim]

16. Here's the pertinent passage from the Warren Report..

The Presidential limousine.The President's automobile was specially designed 1961 Lincoln convertible with two collapsible jump seats between the front and rear seats. (See Commission Exhibit No. 346. It was outfitted with a clear plastic bubble top which was neither bulletproof nor bullet resistant. Because the skies had cleared in Dallas, Lawson directed that the top not be used for the day's activities. He acted on instructions he had received earlier from Assistant Special Agent in Charge Roy H. Kellerman, who was in Fort Worth with the President. Kellerman had discussed the matter with O'Donnell, whose instructions were, "If the weather is clear and it is not raining, have that bubble top off." Elevated approximately 15 inches above the back of the front seat was a metallic frame with four handholds that riders in the car could grip while standing in the rear seat during parades. At the rear on each side of the automobile were small running boards, each designed to hold a Secret Service agent, with a metallic handle for the rider to grasp. The President had frequently stated that he did not want agents to ride on these steps during a motorcade except when necessary. He had repeated this wish only a few days before, during his visit to Tampa, Fla.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/wcr2.htm#p5

This statement obviously needs some verification.

[LiberalUprising]

21. If the bolded statement were true

Why the confusion when ordered off the bumper of both not just one of the SS men?

Who was the man that gave the order? Anyone know?

You would think and hope they would be on the same page and had practiced the routine to perfection with the life of a President at stake.

[liberaldemocrat7]

103. Whether Oswald did it alone or not, the secret service

appears to blame for not placing agents on the back of the Kennedy car on those stands, to protect JFK.

I don't know if Oswald did it alone or not. I recall staying home from school on Friday Nov 22, 1963 at age 13. I still have the newspaper from that day. The actual report came in an extra small section of the paper.

It does apear suspicous that Kennedy's head shot back and he had the right front of his skull shot off.

[Chulanowa]

117. Regarding the direction of pres. Kennedy's head...

Rifle bullets are not pushed once they leave the barrel. They are actually pulled through the air by their own motion - they spiral and more or less bore their way through the air, wheras something like a musket ball has no such motion, and only goes as far as the force generated behind it produced.

Air is not the only thing bullets bore through - When that bullet hit the president's head, put quite literally yanked his head back with the force of its motion. Imagine using a drill on an unsecured piece of wood - the wood moves up the drill bit. Same thing here. When the bullet exits, it pretty much causes an explosion, as it releases energy stored from twisting through matter. The upper right part of his head goes one way, and the rest of his body is pulled / knocked in the opposite direction

Additionally any idiot can see that the bullet does exit. You do not get a reaction like that if it were lodged in there. Whoever dropped that bright shiny new bullet on the gurney and said "oh look, it fell out" needed to be tried for treason right on the spot.

Looking at the autopsy photos, and watching the video, one really starts to doubt if Oswald was the actual killer. Such a violent hit would have needed to be either fairly close-range or from a moderate to high-powered rifle, and the trajectory would suggest something close to ground level - and Oswald wasn't all that close, had a mediocre gun, and was above the president. I can accept that Oswald very likey fired the shot that went into the President's back, but not the shot to the head.

The autopsy report states that the bullet entered through the lower right of Kennedy's head. It then blasted out through the upper right of his head. There's only two ways to explain the footage we see, with htat claim. Either the president would have had to have been shot from below, or that the bullet entered from the lower right, bounced off the bottom of his skull towards the left, riccocheted off the left side of his skull, and finally exited through hte upper right. Sort of a vertical zig-zag.

Chulanowa's conclusion? Hell yes it was a conspiracy. There were at least two gunmen - Oswald was one of them, but did not get the lethal hit. Oswald was then killed by Jack Ruby before he could spill the beans. If Oswald had indeed been an innocent, He would not have been killed - Until he was sitting in the electric chair, anyway (Let's face it, innocent or no, people wanted "justice", swift and harsh). The second shooter remains a mystery to me.

Why is it a conspiracy, rather than just two freaks out to kill the President? Because of the extensive use of lies and bullshit used to cover and confuse the story, both by the government and by the media. The thing with a house of cards is that it'll fall down if you pull just one card out. The key card in the Kennedy assasination is the "magical bullet" that can enter through hte president's back, travel up his neck, enter his skull, bounce arounf a bit, then exit in an upper forward trajectory, meanwhile hitting Gov. Connaly in the chest from the front, smack a curb to cause minor injuries to a passerby... and then return to Kennedy's head where it would later fall out in pristine condition to be dicovered by the guy giving a tracheotomy to a man who's brain is halfway missing.

[benEzra]

182. It was a full-power rifle at point-blank range...

I believe the range of the final shot was around 88 yards, which is point-blank range for a rifle, and the gun in question was a 6.5mm Carcano, which would be around five times as powerful as a pistol round and roughly 40% more powerful than a round from an AK-47 (I'm seeing the kinetic energy at around 1900-2000 ft-lb). No, 6.5x52mm isn't as powerful as a .30-06 deer rifle (2900 ft-lb), but it's more powerful than a .243.

[soothsayer]

142. there are OODLES of quotes from SS men saying that's not true--

they said he never interfered with them, left them to do their own thing, whatever was needed. This is one of those pesky warren commission lies

[bobbie]

162. Yes, given how conspicuous the SS's stand down was

The Warren Ommision had to say something. The SS knowingly laid back, let every rule be broken, and allowd JFK to ride into a massive ambush. Then they didn't make a move (except for Clint Hill who wasn't scheduled to be there until Jackie asked for him) to protect him even after the first shots were fired and about three seconds passed, during which he could have been saved, before the fatal shot was fired from the "grassy knoll."

For example, if the SS man driving the limo had merely stepped on the gas when he heard the first shots, as they're *trained* to do, JFK would probably have been ok.

[soothsayer]

188. yeah, already shot thru the neck but he totally would have made it

[bobbie]

157. mcadams is a right wing propaganda site

They're shameless.

[tridim]

159. That's just the first link I found with the Warren report text n/t

[Imagevision]

158. The Warren Commision is like the 9-11 Report, for public consumption only

It's a fact Bush & Cheney fought nail & tooth to discourage any investigations into 9-11 and had FINAL editing over the commission findings, which is why 18 critical pages were omitted from the public under the guise of "national security"

[rman]

112. some of it is in Stone's "JFK"

Though indeed that movie isn't shown on TV all that often.

[Imagevision]

133. Two Zapruder films, Edited public version, & Government owned version

[amitten]

4. Kennedy was killed by someone on the inside.

Obviously.

[bobbie]

171. By lots of someones on the inside

A successfull 40 year cover-up requires power and access that require many insiders.

[jaxx]

5. Where have these films been for the last 43 years?

I'll never forget those 4 days of sitting home glued to the tv.

[rman]

115. You've never seen the movie "JFK"?

Some of that footage is in there.

[bbinacan]

6. I've never bought into

the whole JFK assassination conspiracy and this clip doesn't change my mind. If I remember correctly, JFK was not well liked in Dallas. Removing the agents may have been ordered by the staff and/or administration to show they didn't fear Dallas.

[doublethink]

9. That's very speculative on your part.

and ...... "If I remember correctly" sounds like "some people say" a Faux news moto now-a-days. I'm just saying? Peace. :)

[doublethink]

12. Follow up ....

How old are you? "If I remember correctly" ... I really want to get into a discussion with you .... come on, where'd ya go? Peace and all the best. Mar. :)

[bbinacan]

15. To answer your question

I'm 42 years old and I don't appreciate the Faux reference.

[doublethink]

17. I really don't care what you appreciate, but your logic is flawed.

But thanks for getting back to me, 42 .. let's see .... that would make you hmmmmm just being born when Kennedy was assassinated? Am I correct? How the F ... k could you remember if Kennedy was liked or not in Dallas at the time? I'm just saying? As a fellow DU'er I do respect your opinion though, all in fun okay, don't take anything personal, I have a great sense of humor and just having fun with you in here. All the best. Peace. :) Mar.

[bbinacan]

18. I was in the womb

when Kennedy was killed. That means nothing. Do you dispute that Kennedy was not well liked in Dallas? I believe that is why he went there.

[doublethink]

23. So 'such and such a poll' back when says Kennedy was not liked in Dallas.

or whatever .. And that convinces you on it's own merit .... that the official story of a lone gunman killed him? That's what your argument is based on? Right? Continue .. with some more relevant facts please. :) Mar.

[bbinacan]

24. I'm going to bed

Do your own damn research.

[doublethink]

26. Already done it.

You obviously haven't! Or you wouldn't of given up so easily! :) By the power of truth I while living have conquered the universe" Come on it's still early. Alreighty then ... goodnight, sleep tight ..... again all in fun. Don't loose any sleep over it. Yea I can be an asshole at times. Really all the best, Peace. Mar. :hi:

[SlavesandBulldozers]

150. Kennedy knew he wasn't liked in Dallas

so that's why he wouldn't mind having secret service men pulled from his detail. See, that makes sense doesn't it? Geeze;)

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[struggle4progress]

29. In fact, Dallas had (and has) a large wingnut population that hated JFK

And those wingnuts were busy around 22 November, handing out fliers showing mugshot-style photos of Kennedy "Wanted for Treason" and running newspaper ads accusing Kennedy of being a communist fellow-traveler.

[doublethink]

33. So this in itself 'if true' convinces you of a lone gunman theory?

links? Facts as to what happened in Dealy Plaza that day? The argument of this thread or the overall discussion isn't a 'popularity contest' but what happened on Nov 22 1963 .... whata ya got? Peace Mar. :)

[struggle4progress]

44. Yeah ... um, well ... huh? It convinces me that JFK went into a city ..

.. full of people who hated him and was murdered there.

There were a lot of screwballs loose in Dallas 21/22 November, including GHW Bush, "Tricky Dick" Nixon, LBJ, and Oswald. In brief: there's no shortage of suspects.

I guess we can all get out our magnifying glasses and search the Plaza for any overlooked evidence -- but perhaps our prospects would be just as good if we were to hunt around the old Borden site, looking for clues about who might have axed Lizzie's mother and father.

[doublethink]

47. WTF does Lizzy Borden have to do with anything?

Happy Halloween on that account ....... but ... The case of the Kennedy Assassination isn't closed is what your saying? A lot of suspects you admit? Ha Ha! Too funny! carry on spill it all out! Peace Mar :)

[struggle4progress]

52. Okie-dokie

[doublethink]

56. Okie dokie what?

:shrug:

[Qutzupalotl]

92. Okie dokie you believe anyone who disagrees with you

is promoting the lone gunman theory so there's not much point in continuing a conversation with you.

(Just a guess.)

[doublethink]

95. Never said that .......

again your attacking the messenger .... "What do you have to add to the conversation of the Kennedy Assassination" which this thread is all about? Bring it on. :shrug: You ever studied logic by the way? Peace. Mar. :)

[doublethink]

97. Follow up. ...... Give me facts ........

I really don't care if you disagree with me, I want facts, the truth ... beyond a reasonable doubt. Got any? Peace. Mar. :hi:

[rainbow4321]

104. The city still doesn't officially recognize anniversaries of the shooting

I went to the 40th anniversary gathering in downtown Dallas..it was not put on by the city itself but by the 6th Floor Museum. Not even Dallas mayor showed up. The only elected official present who spoke was from out of state...Jesse Ventura..and he pointedly asked the crowd where the heck were all our local elected officials?
The gathering was huge and touching..people lingered forever (as did we). They had moments of silence at the exact moment that the shooting would have happened. People later spontaneously stood (started singing a patriotic song) on the "X" that marks the exact spot on the street where JFK's car was when he was killed.
The only blurb I recently remember reading about the city of Dallas and assassination-related comments was that they were wanting to open up the area where Oswald was killed and charge for tours or something like that..talk about trying to make $$ off of their grisly past...they won't recognize it until they can find a way to make $$ off of it. Let's not forget, too, that there have been allegations that the local Dallas police were also involved in the cover-up and how some find it kind of "convenient" that Ruby was able to get thru the police area/building to get so close to Oswald.

[struggle4progress]

153. Ruby knew the local cops and had asked in advance when Oswald ..

.. would be moved.

[rainbow4321]

192. I remember hearing that..then there is his mob connections

Last month I went to eat at an Italian restaurant that Ruby went to the night before JFK was shot--he dined w/ the owner, apparently a well known local mob member back then. I had known he went there but I was looking up more info about it when I read that not only did he dine w/ the mobster but this same restaurant owner/mobster was the first person to visit Ruby right after he was jailed.
Even though local law officials knew the mobster's history, they left the 2 alone to talk..no witnesses, no recordings, no monitoring the conversation, nothing.
I noticed that the restaurant doesn't shy away from the connection...they have a magazine cover/article up on the wall that has a pic of JFK on it and the headline said something about the mob connection theory of JFK's death. Kind of gives one the chills to be at the restaurant to begin with, given it's history, and then add in the stuff on their wall...

[yurbud]

131. and therefore, the Secret Service would fall back at a vulnerable moment?

[struggle4progress]

155. Er ... umm ... HUH? I merely asserted lots of Dallas hated JFK.

I then later indicated that I thought our chances of discovering anything new at this late date were about as good as finding new evidence at the site of the Borden murders.

I frankly don't remember expressing any opinion about the President's protective detail, though of course in hindsight it is clear that there were certain weaknesses.

[yurbud]

180. if there was known to be a lot of hatred, pulling back secret service

would not make sense.

[struggle4progress]

186. You're about forty years too late to help. But thanks anyway.

[yurbud]

199. are you intentionally missing the point?

[elehhhhna]

175. Dallas has ALWAYS been full of a-holes. No different now.

[WinkyDink]

198. No, JFK wasn't well-liked in Dallas. And the connection to LHO would

then be...?

[we can do it]

70. Wow- I'm 47 and I Was In Kidergarten - So You Musta Been some 3 Year Old

just sayin

[elehhhhna]

174. If the shoe fits, wear it, If not, kick it off.

[IndyOp]

14. How in hell do you explain the magic bullet?

One shooter, 3 bullets that hit Kennedy and Connally - bullshit.

Diagram of magic bullet theory here:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sbt.htm

[11 Bravo]

25. The Zapruder film and JFK's autopsy photos are widely available.

I'm not a big tinfoil hat guy, but no one has ever been able to explain to my satisfaction the catastrophic damage to the right front of JFK's head as shown in Zapruder, and the unmarked forehead shown in his autopsy photos.

[dailykoff]

85. "We're heading into nut country today"

is what JFK said to Jackie in Fort Worth that morning when he saw the full-page attack ad in the Dallas Morning News.

So I don't think he or his staff would have been removing any agents.

[rman]

113. JFK not well liked in Dallas - which is why it is suspicious

that security that day was so lax.
The video in the OP shows a security stand-down, also the route was not secured (many open windows...).

[DoYouEverWonder]

120. I got to see Kennedy's motercade

three different times when I was a kid in NYC.

I don't recall ever seeing agents riding on the back of the limo. Doesn't mean they weren't, I just don't remember them, but seeing Kennedy was so awesome who was paying attention.

One thing I do know is that they certainly didn't secure the buildings along the routes. In a city like NYC or Dallas that would be very difficult. Word would go out that Kennedy's motercade was coming and they would close the streets but that was about it.

[bobbie]

183. Yeah Dallas was the lion's den for JFK

What with the oil millionaires who hated him (for eliminating the oil depletion allowance=reducing their profits), the war profiteers who hated him (Brown & Root and Bell Helicopter) for pulling out of Vietnam,
the Dallas cops (full of John Birchers) who hated him, the mayor who hated him (for firing his brother, Charles Cabell, from the CIA after the Bay of Pigs fiasco), and LBJ who *despised* him and desperately wanted to be president.

Gee, and LBJ pushed JFK so hard to go to Dallas...

[elehhhhna]

173. "to show they didn't fear Dallas." What a load of horseshit we have there

[pnorman]

7. Over the years, I've developed a fairly effective BS detector,

which I've had to use frequently with such "startling revelations". But I see NO BS here at all. I'm assuming that deployment of SS agents as "human shields" is unvarying protocol in such instances. If not, WHY not?

A similir point also raised, is that when passing "unsecured" areas, the President's car must NEVER be below a certain speed (40mph?). That was flouted with that unexplained change from the announced route (a hard right to just below that School Book Depositary building).

pnorman

[rasputin1952]

11. Open windows in bldgs were a huge no-no too...yet there were several

in the buildings surrounding Dealy Plaza that day. The SS would never have allowed that to happen under normal circumstances.

There are a lot of odd things about that day, and those that followed...x(

[pnorman]

38. Such strict security procedures started to evolve from several...

...years earlier. That was when VP Nixon got such a hostile reception in a motorcade in South America. Obviously, they were ramped up drastically after that Dallas assassination (execution?), but I wasn't aware of any bans of open windows at that time --- only the rule against never dropping below a certain minimum speed, when they were along the route. But WHY was that totally unnecessary dog-leg inserted into the route in the first place?

Just a little while ago, I was rearranging & labeling my DVD collection, which contains several on this topic. I'll be reviewing them all a little later on.

pnorman

[rasputin1952]

77. Do you have a copy of the Oswald press conference after he was

interrogated?

Watch it closely. It is pretty quick but you will se some body language that is very telling. He has been told he is under arrest for the killing of Tippet, and he appears relatively calm, when questioned about Kennedy, his face takes on a whole new expression. At this point he has his "oh shit" moment as he realizes he has been played for a dupe, ("patsy" was extensively used at the time). He recovers quickly, a sign of great fortitude and intelligence, but that small expression speaks volumes.

Oswald knew a heck of a lot more than people realize, but I do not believe he was the assassin. I believe he was a CIA "extra", and used both in the USSR and as a scape goat for the assassination.

I don't go beyond that w/my explanations because I have no idea just where he fit in, other than as the "patsy".

As for the people who have guarded presidents, the record is spotty at best starting w/Lincoln. The SS didn't come about until Grant was in office, and they didn't do such a remarkable job quite often, just ask McKinley, or Teddy Roosevelt who was shot during a speech. Truman was in Blair House when Puerto Rican nationals gunned down a SS Agent, and were subsequently killed/captured after the attack that was supposed to kill Truman. Truman, a man I admire, came out to see what all the "fuss" was, (he had guts).

"Squeaky" Fromme would have killed Ford if she knew how to use the pistol she had. Reagan got hit and hustled away, the reaction was quick and decisive there.

For the record, I don't think assassination is a preferable action to change a government, I lived through the Kennedy assassination, and it was horrid. I shuddered at the notion of Ford being shot, and although I could not stand Reagan, I certainly did not want to see him harmed.

[pnorman]

91. I'll study it carefully if I find it, but that might be a while off.

But even if I find it, I'd probably rate it as "something of interest", rather than a Smoking Gun.

I first got "hooked" on this when I came upon Mark Lane's "Rush To Judgement" in 1965 or so. Since then, I've seen harsh criticism of him --- his methodology and even his "honesty". But I think that by and large, he wrote what he felt to be the truth. As for his "methodology"? It was a LOT better than that systematic coverup. He certainly asked all the right questions. And now that I have a good broadband connection (AND search-engines), I can start looking for answers to some of those questions (and ask a few questions of my own).

pnorman

[rasputin1952]

119. Another interesting book was written by the woman in the red raincoat

seen in the Zapruder and several other films and pic's. Her name was Mar Mooreman and she was dating one of the MC cops in the motorcade that day. She wore that raincoat so she would stand out for him. While it took some time, she was the victim of some apparent attempts on her life when she said that she thought a bullet came from from the Grassy Knoll. In one attempt, her brake line had been damaged which caused an accident. The small hole was apparently drilled/cut into the line and found by a mechanic after the incident. She was one of the closest to the event, and she never changed her story. She passed away from cancer a year or so ago.

She gives some insight into the events as seen by the Dallas PD POV; how they were taken out of the investigation, questions about the Tippet murder. etc. Which brings up an interesting point. Oswald had a revolver, yet casing were found by Tippet's body, scattered in a pattern that would suggest an automatic was used. Not one witness to the Tippet murder stated that the perpetrator emptied the cylinder of a revolver, which would have meant that time would have been spent removing the casings from the cylinder; standing at the site of a murder and reloading in broad daylight seems almost suicidal to a point. Which brings up another small point in the sequence of events.

Oswald goes to a theater, enters w/o paying for a ticket. The ticket seller calls the cops. What prompted so many from the Dallas PD to go to the theater for a minor theft like that? They were there in minutes, an hour or so after the President of the United States had been murdered at Dealey Plaza, does this make ANY sense? There wasn't even a decent description out yet, and somehow, this gatecrasher is surrounded by Dallas PD officers...:shrug: The description that went out didn't even match what Oswald was wearing at the time. All that the Dallas PD would have known, if this were something looked at as a petty theft, is that someone went into the theater w/o paying for a ticket, something usually handled by theater management anyway.

This isn't conspiracy nuthouse stuff, just serious questions as to the time line of events and how things played out over that time. There are just too many "odd" aspects that need to be questioned.

I don't think Oswald did it, but just because I think that, doesn't mean that he didn't. I just want solid proof that he was the one who pulled that trigger 3 times, and yet somehow, 4 bullets are accounted for. One stuck the curb, one struck Kennedy in the neck, one struck Kennedy in the R side of his head, and one struck a pillar of the overpass, <(might have been a ricochet from the curb), but the guy who was standing there sure didn't think so, you can see him running away from the overpass in the Zapruder film>.

I don't have the answers, but I believe that the questions need to be answered by scientific methodology. Some have attempted this, but they still leave open spaces, hence the controversy.

[Clinton Crusader]

146. When asked "did you shoot the President..."

he says
"No, no one has said that to me yet, the first I heard of it was when a reporter asked me that in the hall..."

a voice nearby says: "You HAVE been charged"

The sheer shock on Oswald's face, and his body lanugage speak volumes.

He is immediately spirited away from microphones. Although at one point during one of the MANY times he weas dragged up and down the hallways of the Dallas Police he yells out "Im just a PATSY!"

Years later, analysis of his voice during the entire time he was still alive indicate no deception, no lying.

[file83]

31. Isn't it curious too, that on 9/11 the Secret Service did NOT protect Bush

right away, after they found out we were under attack? Did they know there was no threat to Bush? The only way they could no that would be if they knew the plans of the "terrorists".

If they knew of the plans, and did nothing to stop it, that means they Let It (9/11) Happen On Purpose.

[rman]

111. Similarly it is standard protocol to make sure all windows along the route

are closed - but not so in this case.
Also it is standard protocol to have additional security by military personnel in hostile areas such as Dallas was to JFK - but not so in this case.
That's three security stand-downs in one scenario.

[Selatius]

8. Brown & Root won a lot of defense contracts during Vietnam under LBJ

It had many connections with LBJ. Vietnam vets and protesters called it "Burn & Loot" at the digust of the war profiteering.

Today, it's now known as Kellog, Brown & Root, a subsidiary of none other than Halliburton. Halliburton, too, has many high-level contacts with the government, including Vice President Cheney.

[bridgit]

10. CIA, Big Oil, the mob...and segments of the federal government imo...

:cry:

[bobbie]

164. You got it brigit

With LBJ in both the big oil category (via his sugar daddy HL Hunt) and the government category. Couldn't have done it without Johnson. All the way with LBJ...

[Justice Is Comin]

13. I've seen enough to convince me it was Oz and only him.

When I saw the documentary taking precision care to duplicate the exact criteria of the scene and they duplicated the shot and identical wounds almost to perfection, that convinced me.

It was only further corroborated to me, when the motorcade cop through sound triangulation was proven that he could not have been where he had to be to have recorded the mystery shot.

It's a wrap for me.

[IndyOp]

19. Which identical wounds?

The small throat wound shown in the most common autopsy photo?

The small hole in the back of the President's head as claimed by the one and only doctor who testified at Warren Commission hearings? - Who had never performed an autopsy on gunshot wounds before?

The HUGE hole in the back of the President's head as illustrated by the medical examiners who were allowed to see the photos in the official archives?

It is far from a wrap for me.

I recommend this video]. I suggest that you ignore the source and watch for the film of people who saw the President's body - include Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. Kemp Clark, Cyril Wecht.

Which wounds?

[Justice Is Comin]

28. No. I don't remember which network or channel it was, but it

wasn't a science fiction fly-by-night documentary. It was a very credible unbiased source in my opinion.

It was two hours long and they duplicated everything; ALL the wounds on Kennedy and Connally, from precisely the angle the shots had to come from, the exact distance the "mystery" shot would travel, the time to fire the rifle, even to where the bullet landed after it went through Connally's wrist.

They recreated the body tissue, muscle, bones to a literal recreation of Kennedy and Connally's body.

The bullet was just as pristine as the bullet that killed Kennedy. And actually the bullet was not pristine, it was slightly flattened on the nose which they duplicated identically.

They created that scene and result to the letter. It was spellbinding.

[LiberalUprising]

32. I haven't seen that documentory but

I believe it was "Mythbusters" that did a segment on it,with the results you describe, it's only TV though and am sure they got the corporate media controlled response.

Hint:
You won't see anything they don't want you to see on tv, documentary or not.

[Justice Is Comin]

35. Well these people weren't stacking the deck.

They were just duplicating every single thing. I can't even remember all the things they compared to the official records that they took pains to get precisely right.

It wasn't until the last ten minutes of the program when the guy finally took the shot. They all examined the results and showed all seven wounds by the same bullet, ending where the Dealy Plaza bullet landed, on the stretcher. And the bullet condition matched the mystery bullet exactly. Right down to the shape of the holes in the body. Some were more elongated than others. They even duplicated that.

Some of the longest threads ever posted here have been on this subject. If your mind is made up and nothing can change it, you have no shortage of people you can discuss it with.

I'm sold, it was one bullet that caused seven wounds and it was no mystery.

[LiberalUprising]

36. So your mind is made up on the basis of a tv show???

:eyes: :shrug:

[IndyOp]

61. Justice - Go get a gun. Go to a safe shooting range and take lessons.

Then shoot some bullets into cardboard targets. Shooting bullets into cardboard or plywood targets will deform the bullet more than the 'magic bullet' found on the stretcher in Parkland Memorial.

A bullet was shot through Kennedy's spinal column and exited his neck, went through Connally's back and exploded a rib, through Connally's wrist and then into his thigh - left fragments that were removed by the surgeons AND APPEARED IN PERFECT CONDITION ON A STRETCHER?

The picture below shows the magic bullet and a bullet fired through a goat's rib - simulating Connally's rib injury only...



I don't know what you saw, but I think it was bunk.


Ten Reasons Why I Reject the Single Bullet Theory
http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id65.htm

[Justice Is Comin]

65. You have to see the show that I did.

If you still think it can't be done, you will have a tough time explaining those two hours.

If I ever see it on a TV schedule again, I'll alert you.

I promise you, they duplicated the seven wounds with one shot. They were all thinking it couldn't be done and were stunned at the result. You are not seeing the front nose of the bullet. It was slightly damaged and not pristine.

The materials used to create the trunks and the body skeltal bones were as close to a human being in density as you could get. I repeat again, they duplicated Dealy Plaza, Connally, and Kennedy to the letter. Right down to the thickness of human skin and sub tissue.

I'm not easy to convince. But this along with the motorcycle cop location debunked, there is nothing else for me to question.

[soothsayer]

123. but the neck bullet was supposed to hit connally, and if you look

frame by frame at the zapruder film, kennedy gets shot in the neck wayyyyy back at frame 225, and connally doesn't get his big sucking chest wound until around frame 312. Don't forget they said Connally's wound was so severe that it was thought that only because his wife threw herself over him, covering it, that he survived. Ok, well, who knows the truth, but you can see that connally sure doesn't look shot between 225 and 312, cuz he turns around to look at JFK who is clutching his throat, having been shot when he was behind that sign that some show has been 'stretched' (elongated from its original size) to cover the actual shot happening, cleverly).

[Justice Is Comin]

126. If it is possible to duplicate the seemingly almost impossible

replication of the 7 exact wounds as received on the bodies with one shot by a marksman under controlled conditions, you would then have to go into almost geo physics contortions to try to explain it away by any other theory than one shot.

There are speculations piled on top of speculations, but when you see what I did as skeptical as I am, and put it together with the other now debunked postulations, for me it is case closed.

The Oliver Stone film was a total cut and paste job as well. Many have based their entire belief of conspiracy on that movie alone. Those people, I really find easy b.s. buyers.

[Imagevision]

160. Excatly! Connelly wasn't hit until 23 seconds after JFK neck hit - you

can clearly see JFK already hit and with the background moving from frame to frame Connelly is then finally hit after the car moves at least 20-25 feetdown its path!

[Imagevision]

161. oops, 2 to 3 seconds

[a la izquierda]

154. I believe it was on the Discovery Channel

But it was not mythbusters. I saw what I suspect you're talking about. I typically like Discovery's Programs, but I remain unconvinced.

[davekriss]

63. I recall the documentary I think you're referring to

They went to great lengths to duplicate the equivalent of human tissue and bone using some kind of gelatin substance etc. I recall that it seemed reasonable and somewhat convincing. As for me, I've never been drawn into the JFK debate even though I was a small child then and the grief of every adult I knew is one of my earliest memories.

[Justice Is Comin]

68. Exactly davekriss. That was it.

[BuyingThyme]

151. The most shocking thing about that show was that they FAILED

to duplicate the event, but decided to LIE about it anyways.

That was the whole show. They tried to make it happen, failed, then lied. Worst show ever produced.

BTW: The person who likes this show so much is DU's biggest Arlen Specter fan, so it kinda fits.

http://shopping.discovery.com/product-56798.html

[davekriss]

176. I will have to watch it with a more critical eye

if I see it again. Note, I don't have an opinion one way or the other (though I do appreciate Octafish's posts), as I became energized politically much later and there has been plenty to fight against over the years, from the American Holocaust in Central America during the Reagan-GHWB years, to overt class warfare then and again under GWB, to LIHOP, stolen elections, unduly broad definitions of terrorism and enemy combatant in the USA PATRIOT Act and Military Commissions Act, to the overt use of tirture (as opposed to covert and by proxy use of torture, which has been in use by US state apparatus for decades), the giveaways to the pharma and oil industry, to the concept of the unitary executive, to rollbacks in environmental and occupational safety regulations, to further elite assault on the public commons, to ... well, the JFK assassination is way down the list. It just hasn't been a priority to settle in my mind.

[gumby]

101. Perhaps you saw that documentary thingy featuring

Gerald Posner's conclusions. He's the guy who "proved" the Warren Commission correct because 'his computer told him it was so.'

Gerald Posner is very strange.

[Spinzonner]

197. PBS did such a special

May have been Frontline:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oswald/conspiracy/

[Spider Jerusalem]

40. There was no "huge hole" in the back of Kennedy's head, though.

The head shot blew out the front right side of his skull. A shot from in front wouldn't do that; such damage is characteristic of an exit wound. Here's a frame from the Zapruder film; note that most of the right front of his head is blown off (the yellowish thing in front of his ear is a piece of skull held on by a flap of scalp).

[doublethink]

57. Here ya go ......

If that ain't a big hole I don't know what is? :shrug: Peace. Mar. :)

[Spider Jerusalem]

74. Upper right side, not the back...

Note that the back of the skull is intact.

And a medical illustrator's rendition of the wound based on autopsy photos + x-rays:

[doublethink]

78. "illustrator's: renditions don't take the place of PHOTOS .......

of the actual autopsy report ..... again look at my post above yours .... peace Mario. :)

[Spider Jerusalem]

79. I did.

You can't SEE the back of his head there. What you CAN see is consistent with the illustration, which is consistent with that frame from the Zapruder film, which is consistent with what's shown in the skull x-rays.

[doublethink]

84. OMG ...... you can't see the back of his head blown out?

"We see what we want to see" Do I need to post more photos? And not illustrations as you do? Whatever your political agenda is I really don't care. But what is in front of you in the photographic evidence ,.. whatever the truth may be, I don't have the answer to this? .. Some drawings you present as opposed to actual photographic evidence in this matter is beyond me. May the truth someday be agreed upon this between us, and may humanity somehow benefit from it....... peace and all the best Mar. :)

[NickB79]

156. As someone who has never gotten into the JFK assassination

The picture you posted does seem to show a large chunk of skull missing from the right top of the head, not from the back. You can see what looks like a half-star of broken bone near the hairline/forehead, which would appear to match the rendition picture posted.

[doublethink]

217. Look again ......

The chunk missing BEHIND his head is larger .... look at the SHADOW on the table protruding in and beneath his head. You can see more of the table below him (the back of his head) then you would be able to if that part of his skull were still there. AGAIN YOU CAN SEE MORE OF THE TABLE THAN YOU SHOULD IF HIS SKULL WEREN'T MISSING BACK THERE. The silver object (which resembles a white knob attached to a silver plate) behind his head. His face is intact, his upper facial forehead appears wounded like you describe. BUT THE OBVIOUS MISSING PART OF HIS SKULL RESTING ON THE TABLE BELLOW HIM IS HUGE WHEN YOU CARE TO LOOK AT THE PHOTOGRAPH I POSTED IN POST #57 ABOVE. Not that this really matters but I've been involved with photography and these perspectives my whole life, sorry you can't see it. Peace. :hi:

[mod mom]

71. wow.

[hang a left]

94. Whoa!!

Thank you so much for that video. I can't wait to show it to my college age son. Puts it all together. Even though we may never know who the shooters were, we know who was leading the orchestra.

Eternally grateful!

[IndyOp]

122. Actually, we do / could know who the shooters were...

James Files

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/interview.htm

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/buy1.htm

[Gabi Hayes]

98. just curious...when did Wecht see Kennedy's body?

he's lately seemed to be something of a strange character, but when I was paying more attention to this, his analysis of the absurdities of entire autopsy fiasco made sense.

always try to find out the motivations of anyone who takes an assertive position in this.

[mod mom]

147. Indy, would you consider giving that video it's own thread?

I never saw it before, so I suspect others here might not as well.

[bbinacan]

20. Agreed. n/t

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[doublethink]

54. HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!!!!

Too funny ...... your only comment was my behavior smells like pizza? I'm just saying? :hi: ..... oh come on you can do better than that? ..... Love ya man! Really I do! If you have anything relevant to add to the conversation rather than attacking the messenger then lets have it? Of course these things get heated now and then, all in fun, but ...... come on .... whata ya really got to say on the Kennedy Assassination? :shrug: Peace Mar. :)

[omega minimo]

64. i'd love to see the manual where you guys get this crap

"I'm just saying"

[doublethink]

75. A lot of research .......

got any links to refute any of it? And I didn't start the 'crap'... the other side of the argument did, you or they never posted any manuel to it? The proof is on you? Go back in the thread and come up with something. Alrighty then ........ you provide links and I will too. Peace, and all the best, Mario. :) Peace.

[omega minimo]

82. If you are serious about the research

you might choose not to creepily mess with people here (the "crap" I was referring to).

[doublethink]

86. Creeply mess with people here?

WTF does that mean? I'm having a fun discussion here with anyone including yourself on the subject of the KENNEDY ASSASSINATION. Got something to say .. say it ..... I have no time for stupid attacks personally unless I'm attacked first. I didn't bring up the 'Crap' attack ...... someone else brought that up .... oh see post #64 that guy brought it up .... THE WORD CRAP! Peace Mar, waiting for your apology ... :rofl:

[omega minimo]

87. #46

[doublethink]

89. Was that your apology?

:shrug: It doesn't matter, are you voting Democratic on Nov 7th? If you are all is forgiven. ;) .... Then and only then we'll we have the time to discuss this shit over a beer someday .... all my love Mar. :)

[niallmac]

49. Was it NOVA?

I saw that show using computer recreations to prove how the magic bullet could have done it's thing.
It was a scary show because it just made no sense.
You don't need a computer to look at the trajectory of the Magic Bullet, then look at the
pristine bullet itself and ask how on earth anyone is to believe this Senator Specter fantasy.
Cyril Wecht the famous pathologist who devoted so much time in exposing the phony
science in the work up of the JFK assassination said once that if was allowed only one
item, one event to help him defend his challenge of the Warren Commission Report
it would be the Magic Bullet. It is unexplainable. It is a farce.

[Justice Is Comin]

62. No, it wasn't Nova.

No computer simulations whatsoever.

[rman]

114. by all means, don't look any further...

[soothsayer]

125. Even tho the HSCA said there were two gunmen? Acoustics

from a motorcycle cop's radio signal showed a second source of shots from the front of the limo. Page 97 of the conspiracy section talks about the second gunman
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/report/html/HSCA_Report_0064a.htm


Hey, Gore said he'd open up these files if he won. Let's get him in there!

[bobbie]

166. Yup, even the heavily compromised HSCA had to admit

There were at least two shooters, one from the grassy knoll. Of course, being the whores they were, they then indicated the two shooters could have been a coincidence. :eyes:

[achtung_circus]

177. From here,

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sbt.htm
there is this



with a digitized rendereing of the entire plaza.

[soothsayer]

22. spooky! So was Jacquie reaching for the secret service guy to

help him on board, or reaching gruesomely for pieces of brain as everyone always says?

[VeggieTart]

27. And if the bullet came from the back...

...why would she climb over the BACK of the vehicle? The video shows Kennedy's head jerking back at impact, indicative of a hit from the front.

However, I discount the use of the pronoun "they" as indicative of anything other than not knowing what the hell was going on and understandably panicking. Jackie Kennedy probably used the plural pronoun because it was the simplest sentence construction.

The mob probably did the dirty work. As to who hired them, that will likely always be a mystery.

Irony: from what I've read, just seconds before he was shot, Mrs. Connally said something like, "Well, you can't say that Dallas doesn't love you."

[LiberalUprising]

34. Not really a mystery

Who had the power and connections to pull it off and cover it up.

Why was the Warren Comission a total farce, you would think that a country such as the US would stop at nothing to discover the truth of who killed their President, unless high ranking govt elements were involved that is.

The mob? No, to say so would be to say the mob had control of the US govt.

Definite inside job.

[rasputin1952]

81. In the intensity of the moment, I can easily see Jackie trying to

retrieve that piece of skull on the trunk. She is in complete shock, anything that seems strange to us, was perfect normal for her at the time.

[soothsayer]

109. Not saying she didn't, just the first time I also saw the SS guy

scrambling to get into the car, so it makes me wonder what she's really doing. Always accepted/understood the 'brain' thing, always rejected the 'she's trying to get out' thing, just had never seen a dude running behind trying to get in so never had that third alternative (I'm sure there are others)

[soothsayer]

116. Look at frames 342 thru 370---reaching for the agent? (new link)

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v2n2/zfilm/zframe342.html

[rasputin1952]

121. My bad, I see what you are alluding to, and I agree she is reaching

for the Agent; a normal response I should think, the car was speeding up and he might have fallen and been run over by following vehicles, she's doing what any person would have done under the circumstances. I thought you were talking about Jackie's initial movement toward the trunk as she was attempting to receive part of his occipital or parietal lobe.

[Quixote1818]

127. She definitely picked up part of his brain. You can see it clearly

on one of the video's when it's blown up. She probably felt it wasn't right for part of his body to be just sitting out in the open. It was probably an irrational reaction that was rooted in her proper up bringing.

[soothsayer]

138. yeah, warren report says she doesn't even remember climbing

onto the trunk

[soothsayer]

37. Here's some more stuff on the actions of that seated agent

snip

THE RYBKA TAPE -- An important discovery was made by this correspondent during review of video of the Dallas trip shot by the ABC television affiliate in that city. During the start of the fatal motorcade at Love Field, Secret Service agent Henry J. Rybka begins to jog alongside the presidential limousine. He is immediately called back by his shift leader and commander of the follow-up car detail, Emory P. Roberts.

Rybka's dismay and confusion is made manifest by his unambiguous body language: He throws up his arms several times before, during and after the follow-up car passes him. He was not being allowed to do his job -- and it was not JFK who was ordering the stand-down.

snip

THE NON-PERFORMANCE OF AGENT ROBERTS -- The activities of Emory P. Roberts during as well as before the shooting are difficult to understand. As the first shots were fired, he recalled agent John D. Ready, who was attempting to run to the president's car. The initial explanation for this order -- the speed of and distance between the cars was too great for effective protective measures to be taken -- has been contradicted by photographic and eyewitness testimony.

And Kinney, the driver of the follow-up car who was seated beside Roberts, said that his shift leader, upon hearing what he later admitted he immediately knew to be a rifle shot, ordered his agents not to move.

snip

more here
http://www.jfklancer.com/LNE/limo.html

[pnorman]

41. That site is one I've never seen before. THANKS.

I'll go through it very carefully with my BS Detector(TM}, but on the face of it, it looks "authentic" enough to merit serious Googling.

pnorman

[LiberalUprising]

43. Thanks soothsayer

Just what I was looking for

[soothsayer]

45. welcome! Further googling shows that agent died in the 1960s

Roberts, the dude that called them back.

[LiberalUprising]

53. Was he 'suicided'?

How did he die

[soothsayer]

58. I don't know (yet). Here's all I've found so far on his death

It is a shame that Emory Roberts cannot tell us more: having never been questioned by the WC or the FBI, he died in the late 1960's, the same time an unnamed agent took his life with his own weapon in Washington (he showed signs he was beginning to buckle)36 ---was this Roberts? LBJ's chief private secretary was Mrs. Juanita Roberts37 -- was Emory her husband? I intend to follow-up on these leads (and more).
Stay tuned....

http://www.jfklink.com/articles/EmoryRoberts.html

Author is that same Vincent Palamara guy.

I also found that you can find his obituary in "Box 10" at the truman library

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/hstpaper/odumacc.htm

on edit: and futhermore (same vincent palamar guy)

The Shift Leaders of the WHD (SAIC Assistants):
1) ATSAIC EMORY P. ROBERTS in command of FOLLOW-UP CAR in Dallas:
order<..> agent Henry J. Rybka back from rear of limo at Love
Field, orders agents not to move after first shot on Elm Street,
recalls agent John Ready during/ shortly after one of the head
shots. Usurps Kellerman's authority at Parkland Hospital (dies
of unknown causes in the late '60's).

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/VP/03-VP.html

[LiberalUprising]

128. Thanks again

Interesting, did ya find anymore?

[soothsayer]

135. nope, not on that guy

[Thickasabrick]

39. I still think Fidel was behind the hit. Nice video though

[LiberalUprising]

42. Any reason you think this?

How could Fidel have managed the cover up within the US goverment without help of high ranking US officials?

[Thickasabrick]

50. Please see my link. I guess people believe whatever seem

credible to them. This one made sense to me.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4582488.stm

[soothsayer]

190. Johnson looks pretty tickled after the swearing in. LBJ's mistress

says he threw a party the night before the assassination and told her "After tommorrow those SOB Kennedy's will never embarrass me again."

video interview with her from 1983 or something

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1929769365635576415

[Thickasabrick]

202. WOW - a new angle I have never heard of. Thanks!

[soothsayer]

211. there's a good free alex jones video (terrorstorm? or another

one involving 911) and it goes back to the kennedy assassination and gives some pretty interesting stuff on johnson and what kennedy was planning and what johnson did as soon as kennedy was gone. go to googlevideo and try that one---the gulf of tonkin incident and all kinds of horrors the gov is willing to do to its fellow americans in order to get what it wants

[Glib Acumen]

48. Mob investigations stopped after the assassination

I remember that before JFK died, there were many investigations into mafia and mob bosses.
After JFK was killed, the mob investigations stopped. The point was made by the mob that no government
official is safe to convict mafia leaders. If the Feds take out mafia bosses, then mafia bosses
can kill any official they want. You can do research to test my theory. You can make lists of
congressional hearings on the cosa nostra before and after the assassination of JFK.

A second thing I remember from 1963 was that the Russians were not blamed. The Russians were
the obvious suspects for the assassination, but the media was silent on that possibility.
Oswald had a Russian wife. Oswald spoke Russian. Oswald lived in Russia. But the TV networks
did not say they suspected the Russians. In 1963, Russia was portrayed as the bad guys, except
when it came to the assassination of JFK. I was 11 years old then, and I noticed these things.
Why did no adults speak up on these two items?

[mod mom]

149. Watch the video link posted by Indy Op in thread 19 and see why

the mob investigations ended.

[T Town Jake]

51. Interesting historical clip. Doesn't change the FACT---->Oswald, Guilty.

...and all by his lonesome. Period.

[upi402]

55. Is it possible to know?

The Warren commission was prejudiced and flawed and made errors of omissions as well as errors of commission.

The records were supposed to be released in the mid 90's, if I recall, and were delayed delayed delayed. Then it was a redacted crumb.

What's to hide? Everyone's out of power, aren't they? Or are they...

Oh there were powerful groups making murderous plans who had the means and the motive. And there are people who like the foxes story about why the chickens disappeared from the coup.

[soothsayer]

59. Of course! And OJ is innocent! Proven in court! lol

[hedgehog]

60. The oddest thing about the Kennedy assassination, if I may be

forgiven for repeating myself, is that Oswald denied doing it. Most assassins proudly take credit for their deed. Sirhan Sirhan has claimed to have been brainwashed, but I don't think he's denied actually pulling the trigger. James Earl Ray also claimed that someone else did the shooting. I believe a Congressional Committee came to the conclusion that the King assassination was the work of a conspiracy rather than a lone shooter. Oddly enough, the findings of that committee were never pursued.

[upi402]

66. item 1; the head goes BACK when shot from the FRONT

People who are so assuredly certain Oswald was alone tend to suspend disbeleif on that.
Kennedy's head went back, as if a lead projectile at high speed hit it or something.

Jim Marr's "Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy was a good resource and we still need all the truth to come out.

[soothsayer]

210. they believe the 'jet spray of blood forces head back' theory

lol

we should have launched kennedy's head into space if we knew it had that amazing propulsion

[Recursion]

215. No, we just know how bullets work

Bullets actually transfer almost no kinetic energy to their targets. If they did, they wouldn't be able to punch holes in them.

[Octafish]

67. B & K & R-13

Henry J. Rybka, Secret Service, an honest man of good character.

http://www.jfklancer.com/LNE/limo.html

[upi402]

69. Thank you

very much
for very much.
:patriot:

[Octafish]

72. You're welcome, upi402. Hey! Didya see Poppy was in Dallas on 22 Nov 63...

George Herbert Walker Bush told the FBI
he was in Dallas the day President Kennedy was assassinated.
He heard someone named James Parrott threaten to kill President Kennedy.
Of course, Poppy didn't mention it until an hour after JFK was dead.
Then, he said he was driving to Dallas.

My source is the FBI.

No wonder Poppy doesn't remember where he was on November 22, 1963.

MORE: http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/bush.htm

Here's where Poppy was on November 23, 1963.
Talking his pimply ass off to J Edgar Hoover about the pro- and anti-Castro Cuban communities in Miami.
My source is the FBI.



Here are transcripts of the above memos, without all the tags and mimeograph blots:

TO: SAC, HOUSTON DATE: 11-22-63

FROM: SA GRAHAM W. KITCHEL

SUBJECT: UNKNOWN SUBJECT;
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT
JOHN F. KENNEDY


At 1:45 p.m. Mr. GEORGE H. W. BUSH, President of the Zapata Off-Shore Drilling Company, Houston, Texas, residence 5525 Briar, Houston, telephonically furnished the following information to writer by long distance telephone call from Tyler, Texas.

BUSH stated that he wanted to be kept confidential but wanted to furnish hearsay that he recalled hearing in recent weeks, the day and source unknown. He stated that one JAMES PARROTT has been talking of killing the President when he comes to Houston.

BUSH stated that PARROTT is possibly a student at the University of Houston and is active in political matters in this area. He stated that he felt Mrs. FAWLEY, telephone number SU 2-5239, or ARLINE SMITH, telephone number JA 9-9194 of the Harris County Republican Party Headquarters would be able to furnish additional information regarding the identity of PARROTT.

BUSH stated that he was proceeding to Dallas, Texas, would remain in the Sheraton-Dallas Hotel and return to his residence on 11-23-63. His office telephone number is CA 2-0395.

# # #

Here's where "Mr George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency" gets briefed by J Edgar Hoover himself, a few days later.



The transcript:

Date: November 29, 1963

To: Director
Bureau of Intelligence and Research
Department of State

From: John Edgar Hoover, Director

Subject: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
NOVEMBER 22, 1963

Our Miami, Florida, Office on November 23, 1963, advised that the Office of Coordinator of Cuban Affairs in Miami advised that the Department of State feels some misguided anti-Castro group might capitalize on the present situation and undertake an unauthorized raid against Cuba, believing that the assassination of President John F. Kennedy might herald a change in U. S. policy, which is not true.

Our sources and informants familiar with Cuban matters in the Miami area advise that the general feeling in the anti-Castro Cuban community is one of stunned disbelief and, even among those who did not entirely agree with the President's policy concerning Cuba, the feeling is that the President's death represents a great loss not only to the U. S. but to all of Latin America. These sources know of no plans for unauthorized action against Cuba.

An informant who has furnished reliable information in the past and who is close to a small pro-Castro group in Miami has advised that these individuals are afraid that the assassination of the President may result in strong repressive measures being taken against them and, although pro-Castro in their feelings, regret the assassination.

The substance of the foregoing information was orally furnished to Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency and Captain William Edwards of the Defense Intelligence Agency on November 23, 1963, by Mr. W. T. Forsyth of this Bureau.

# # #

Poppy was in Dallas when the last true Liberal president peace-loving military hero was killed, coup d'etat style.

Why was George Bush Sr in Dallas? Was he there on business? What kind of business?

We've been wanting to ask these turds those very questions for a long time, upi402.

Judging from the number of people who don't believe the government in regards to 9-11, we just may get a chance to see them asked.

Poppy Bush is no stranger to the coup d'etat. Think Guatemala, Cuba, Brazil, Chile, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Honduras, Haiti and keep on going.

[upi402]

80. I hold out hope for a patriotic agent in

the FBI or CIA to crack some eggs and make the omlette. So many are selfless and would give their very lives without hesitation. Well if now aint the 'now or never' time -I don't know when it will be.

BTW
Many intrusion alerts from my puter's security on this thread.
And I don't care.
I have nothing to hide but my unwillingness to go along with the neocon betrayal of democracy.

[TheWatcher]

106. Great Post as always, my friend

But I think that there are many Oswald believers here at DU who are determined to take that belief to the grave, even if it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it wasn't Oswald.

The need for them to cling to that belief is in itself, a marvel to behold, and in itself would make a great subject for research.

It's one of the reasons that America is most likely incapable of change, and can never fully recover or heal as a society.

Too many of us are willing to die for the support of a lie than face any alternative possibilities or truths.

So it has gone with Kennedy, and so it will go with 9/11, Vote Fraud, etc, etc, etc.

Jack Nicholson was right.

We Can't Handle The Truth.

And many of us will do anything to keep on avoiding it.

Keep Shining The Light On Things. :hi:

[unpossibles]

201. because most Americans see America as a Myth:

and would rather believe the myth than consider that we have had a lot of shameful moments as well as good ones. We can look at history and if it is far enough back, we can admit maybe we were wrong. A little. yeah, those native American and black people.... ok, maybe it was a mistake. But nothing bad happens today, right?

Honestly, it's really sad, and I think it's related to why American people in general often refuse to try to understand logic and science and history: we don't want to shatter our myth, the one which we grew up with that states that America is good, and shining, and always right. We wear the white hat, right?

As a crude analogy, it's like the guy who wants to believe that the girl on the other end of the phone sex line is a hot 19 year old college student sitting around in her lingerie.

We want to believe. And anyone who questions or even tries to understand the motives of the events in history is called "crazy" or "unpatriotic" even though wanting to understand is often rooted in a great love for our country. I would rather know the truth - good and bad - in order to try to make this place into the reality of that shining, good myth.

[Imagevision]

165. Poppy was in Dallas, so was Nixon who later claimed he had no recollection

[SPKrazy]

73. I Always Love The Brains Blowing Back Towards The Alleged Shot

Like when a shot goes through something it blows things back towards the direction of the shot

Jackie climbing across the trunk of the car either getting away, or going after his brains, shows the direction of the spray of grey matter.

Amazing that the Warren Commission (not unlike the 9/11 commission) reports are accepted as fact by so many.

The media is complicit in these cover-ups.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

76. The summer after the assassination, we took a day trip into Canada

and compulsive reader that I was at age 14, I bought some Canadian magazines to bring back to the park on the Minnesota side where my grandmother had set up her trailer.

The issue of McLean's that I picked up contained an article by a Canadian journalist who said that he had been in Dallas on the day of the assassination and that he had looked up when the shots were fired and seen two men in the window. He said that he snapped a picture of the two men and went to the FBI to tell them about it. They immediately confiscated his camera, but no trace of the pictures ever appeared in the official records.

I don't know whether to believe his story or not, but I know of several instances in which facts that were common knowledge in other countries were not known till later in the U.S. I haven't found any reference to his story on the Internet, but then, it's from a magazine article 42 years old.

[texasleo]

99. The journalist was in Dallas? HE DID IT!!!!

couldn't resist.


That's how stupid the "Bush 41 was in Dallas" crowd sound.

(not you)

[mod mom]

200. Did you read Octfish's post # 72, that shows the memorandum from

the CIA? Sheesh..they have lied about everything else and you believe HW when he says he doesn't remember where he was?

[unpossibles]

207. why is it "stupid"? I would say that there is a lot of

evidence that says he may have been involved, none of which has been discussed by the opposition. I guess it's easier to call someone "stupid" though, than to put forth an alternate theory that explains the Hoover memo, his CIA career, and a lot of other questionable things. I would suppose that Creationists also consider anyone who believes in Evolution to be "stupid" as well.

[johnnie]

83. Strange you bring this up

I was just transferring reel to reel tapes for a client of mine and this person's grandfather had taped a whole tape from television on Nov. 24th, 1963. That was the day Oswald was shot and this was taped a bit after that.

It was all live and had a few interesting things on it. I haven't listened to the whole thing but I did hear one of the newsmen say that they had it from reliable sources that the Dallas police confirmed that there was a connection between Oswald and Ruby and they were treating it as if Ruby shot Oswald to shut him up.

Most people who don't think there was a conspiracy tend to be people who weren't born yet. The people i talk to that were around then say that most people thought Oswald wasn't the sole killer.

One of these days I am going to listen to the tape closer and see what I can hear. It might be pretty good.

[savemefromdumbya]

88. Oswald was shut up

[pacalo]

187. I was 11 yrs. old at the time & I distinctly remember

the cameras following Oswald as he was being escorted into an elevator. "I've been railroaded," he said to the reporters. I've never seen that particular scene again. And before he was allowed to talk in front of tv cameras again, he was shot by Jack Ruby.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

100. I remember the part about the connection between Ruby and Oswald, too

Everyone was talking about that, saying that Oswald frequented Ruby's nightclub and that it was odd that a presumably mob-connected nightclub owner would be driven so crazy with grief and anger at JFK's assassination that he should shoot the accused assassin as that particular accused was being moved while surrounded by cops.

[Gabi Hayes]

102. silly Lydia! it's just another of those pesky coincidents!

just like crazy Oswald, running around, looking at cars, acting like a maniac at a shooting range (always making SURE that people remembered his name)

just like Ruby correcting the name of the Fair Play for Cuba group at Wade's press conference (!!!)

just like the magic bullet appearing on Connolly's crash cart at the hospital, leaving certain evidence of a shot being fired by the MC rifle

the list of 'coincidences' is nearly endless, but don't let that get in the way of swallowing the Warren Report


jst kdn, btw.

[FlaGranny]

204. Hey, I was around then and

there was absolutely no one that I knew or ever spoke to at the time who thought think Oswald acted alone. We thought it seemed so convenient and "easy" that they found the guilty party so quickly and under such strange circumstances.

[johnnie]

205. That's right

As I said, the people who disagree with the conspiracy are usually people that weren't around yet and typically go by the "official" story.

[Gabi Hayes]

90. Face it....all you need to know is what some others have said:

there is NO way to explain the trajectory of the 'bullet' that did the damage it did to both Kennedy and Connolly, and maintain the alleged pristine condition that coincidence theorists MUST it must without believing in the most outrageous rationalizations, chief of which is the fact that more material was extracted from Connolly's wounds than was missing from the magic bullet.

Nobody has credibly explained this, let alone the other impossibilities inherent in the magic bullet theory. you can believe mcadams (here's another coincidence: he can't satisfactorily explain his ties to the....CIA! what a coincidence!), or posner (ha ha), or, biggest laugh of all, Specter, that highly regarded civil servant, who stood up so bravely to the Bush regime on countless occasions. but I digress

do the work yourselves. look at the evidence. read as many primary sources as you can. it's so much worse than you think, from almost every angle.

Use your common sense. when they tell you that the magic bullet could have done what they said it did, well, draw your own conclusions. and make sure you take into consideration the motivations of the people that would have you believe the unbelievable, and disparage you for being conspiracy nuts. just remember, the others are merely coincidence nuts, or have some sort of axe to grind.

and face this: Dave Chapelle, uncensored (swears galore) on comedy central.
buh bye

[autorank]

93. Wouldn't you love to have Arlen Specter answer questions with total truth

for a couple of hours. That would clear things up in a heart beat. I've always assumed that Specter has such wide sway to pop off because going after him would be very risky.

Of course the magic bullet is the key. It's absurd beyond words. Mark Furman, the guy who blew the OJ case with his foul mouth, has a book out that supposedly explains the bullet based on a nick that has not been noticed in the limousine. He also says that the missing physical autopsy material was disposed of by RFK. Somehow RFK helped suppress the Warren Commission evidence to avoid people knowing that the mob stuffed ballots in IL thus giving JFK the election. One problem with that, JFK didn't need IL to win.

You have the right approach. Look at the facts, look at what the consensus is by reasonable and qualified people, then judge.

This video is extremely powerful. We don't even need any experts. The secret service is waived off, there are no men on the car, he's shot, then all Hell breaks loose.

The nonsense about JFK's murder is THE MOST DESTABILIZING thing that ever hit this country, period. It's really worse than Viet Nam because it's so simple. The elected President of the United States of America was murdered and the investigation contracted rather than expanded the base of facts. You start there and go back to the government: tested nuclear weapons openly in the Nevada desert over years - the surely knew the impact of nuclear clouds; the government lied about Viet Nam in the Gulf of Tonkin resolution - they knew that was a lie; the government planned to attack Americans for a stupid foreign policy objective in Operation Northwoods - they planned a vile lie and knew; and the originator of that plan, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was removed from his position - to become head of NATO. I'm tired of being lied to and I'm tired of disbelieving more than I need to because lying about very important things is endorsed by failing to tell the truth about critical events like the Kennedy assisi nation.

[Gabi Hayes]

96. very well, extememely well, put.

one thing you don't need to include, though, is mention of Fuhrman. he doesn't reveal any new information, that I know of; all the stuff you mentioned, I've read in other places. those bits just make the official version even more ludicrous, but I never know how far to go with that stuff. Other, verifiable aspects of the case, such as Oswald's incredibly close ties to SEVERAL US Intel agencies (see ''Oswald and the CIA'' for a very believeable, primary document-laden source) make coincidence explanation make the existence of the tooth fairy more plausible in comparison.

that said, you really hit it on the head with your summation of the way things have gone in the last 43 years (now, there's a coincidence I can abide!) is very evocative, as well as maddening.

One other thing: your mention of Vietnam brings up the question, argued from both sides, whether we'd ever have reached the levels of involvement there, had JFK not been killed then. Course, he'd probably been killed a few weeks/months later. They couldn't do it in Miami. You know they weren't going to stop, no matter what.

and, as for specter, couldn't agree more, and it prompts this response: I'd like to see similar questioning of anyone who knows what happened with the actions of the Secret Service in the days/weeks/months/hours/minutes running up to and during the assassination itself. I wonder who's still around with tales to tell.

I always wanted to see Richard Helms (who lied about his certain knowledge of Clay Shaw's CIA ties), strung up by his feet, and be made to tell what he knew. That would be very easilty accomplished under today's new strictures, wouldn't it?

[soothsayer]

110. Who on earth would know about the limo? It's missing (according

to some documentary I've seen)

[meuniermr]

124. No its not, its in the Henry Ford Museum in Detroit.

[soothsayer]

137. Shoot, I'll try to find links that show that's NOT the same limo, it's

well documented somewhere out there, or at least very compelling

[bobbie]

170. The limo was immediately shipped to Detroit *by LBJ*

Who saw to it that all evidence was removed when he had the seats, windows, etc replaced. Now wouldn't that destruction of evidence be a crime in itself? That alone should prove that it was a conspiracy, which clearly involved Johnson, who worked very forcefully on the cover-up. And of course JFK's clothes were immediately *laundered*, eliminating more evidence of the multiple shooters. I don't know if Johnson or the SS ordered that crime.

Hell, even Kennedy's body was seriously tampered en route to Bethesda. The evidence/wounds were altered to try to make it look like one shooter could have done it from behind. Yeah, this was one big honkin' conspiracy. It couldn't have worked without the SS's participation.

[soothsayer]

191. Body wrapped in sheets went into one casket, came off the plane

in a totally different casket wrapped in a body bag

I do recall reading/seeing something about the car---not just having all the stuff changed on it, but being a different model entirely

[bobbie]

212. Yes the magic casket transformation, right up there with the magic bullet

Not to mention the magic body transformation:

At Parkland hospital in Dallas the experienced civilian doctors describe a small entrance wound on the front of president's neck, an entrance wound near his right temple, an entrance wound in his back below his right shoulder blade, and a huge exit wound at the rear right of his head where all bone and skin and hair and brain are also missing.

The body is then literally stolen by the secret service (under the order of...who?) from the doctors at Parkland *at gunpoint*, under obvious threat of death, in spite of the fact that Dallas had legal jurisdiction over the murder investigation, and loaded onto air force one where Johnson has insisted that he be sworn in immediately and that Jackie watch, then he insists that he leave the plane first since he is president...

At Bethesda naval hospital, where the body arrived--after an unexplained delay en route from Dallas and in a *different* casket from the one that left Dallas and in a body bag (as soothsayer pointed out)--in Maryland where the inexperienced military doctors saw a body with a huge "tracheotomy" wound in the neck obliterating any sign of an entrance wound, a large area of scalpel cut skin on the temple obliterating any sign of the temple entrance wound, and with much of the huge head wound hidden by brain/hair/skull so it appears much smaller.

But of course the military doctors have to follow orders when it comes to describing the body, not that there was an actual autopsy done after all it's only the murdered president of the US. They're much easier to handle than those uppity civilian doctors at Parkland.

See, it was a magical day. Yet people refuse to stop talking about a high level conspiracy in President Kennedy's murder. Go figure.

[autorank]

206. He had pictures that had not been released previously.

The pics showed a ding in the body just below the front window. That's what I remember. I wouldn't buy a winning lottery ticket from Furman but I sat and looked at his argument in Barnes and Noble just to see if he was whoring again. He's on somebody's payroll probably. I think that this video is utterly devastating and that it's about time the issue surface again. Why not, it was the apogee of the disgraceful violence and interference that has characterized our politics. Enough is enough.

[elehhhhna]

208. Good news! We can waterboard Specter in Jan '08 and get the truth.

[bobbie]

169. Right Gabi, and look at it in context

Three years later Malcolm X is killed, five years later MLK and RFK are killed. The fact that leftist leaders and civil rights leaders were regularly exterminated should make it obvious that JFK was merely the first (and biggest) of the string of political assassinations.

[Nostradammit]

107. Damnnnnnnnnnn...

very, very damning evidence.

Someday the truth will be known by all.

[soothsayer]

108. I hope so, but I doubt that's true. Same with 9/11.

[B Calm]

118. I been waiting for the truth since I was 12 yrs old. My dad always

had thought the republicans (Bush) did it.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

129. This Clip is from the FULL VIDEO. JFK II. Here is the link

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2928756561478705121&q=jfk+II

[Clinton Crusader]

130. I've seen this footage a million times....

I've been collecting and researching Dallas for most of my life (no joke) and I have miles and miles and miles of footage. One set I have that is especially captivating, is called The Kennedy Tapes. I beileve it's 9 or 10 VHS's. The 20th anniversary in Dallas on local TV, they played the original footage of the entire event as it happened. Starting with the hotel parking lot in Ft. Worth, all the way through the entire assassination weekend. Truly captivating footage, albeit some would say excruciatingly boring at times, but it's fascinating to see ALL that went on. The Love Field section has this footage in it. This isn't new by any means.

I remember YEARS ago sitting around with other JFK researchers watching this and many making remarks as to the SS agent who holds out his arms saying 'why am I standing down?' The thing to keep in mind here, is that they eventually WERE on the limousine, later footage of the actual motorcade shows the agents on the back of the car, and as we all know at the fateful instance Clint Hill WAS on the back, stepped off, went back, stepped off, and then ran to the back of the car.

There is SO MUCH in that day that makes no sense at all, common sense that is. The biggest misconception is the bubbletop; it was not bulletrpoof and would have made little difference.

The one thing in all this that sticks with me as THE most important piece is Badge Man. For a great perspective intot his see if you can locate a set called 'The Men Who Killed Kennedy'. Deep investigation and to ME, clear cut evidence that there was indeed a man dressed as a Dallas PO, with a rifle behind the grassy knoll. A soldier is interviewed, who is one of the men seen standing on the steps by the fence, and he describes the entire incident. Brilliant cover: dressed as a Dallas police officer. Who would question it?
:shrug:

BTW, what 'film' is the link you provide? Is this a new compilation or theory tape?

[Octafish]

132. No agents were on JFK's car. They were on the follow-up car.

Here's a photo from the time:



Note that the police were following, behind President Kennedy's limousine.

Oh yeah. LBJ's car had all sorts of agents on it, too.

[Clinton Crusader]

134. During the motorcade...

is what I meant. They were on and off the car throughout the motorcade; of course at the crucial moment, they were not present. Clint Hill being the only agent to run to the car. Poor guy endured years of mental anguish, blaming himself for not being on the car.

[soothsayer]

136. He should blame his boss who called him back from the car

[Octafish]

139. His boss kept him off the motorcade entirely.

The turd's name was Emory Roberts. Here're the details:

THE STRANGE ACTIONS (AND INACTION)
OF AGENT EMORY ROBERTS

by Vincent M. Palamara (Copyright 1999)

During the last five years or so, I have often been asked, "What agent or agents are you most suspicious of?" in relation to the tragic events of November 22, 1963. I have always answered: "There are three agents at the top of my list:

Bill Greer, Floyd Boring, and Emory Roberts." My research into Bill Greer1 and Floyd Boring2 has been well covered in the pages of several journals, and in my manuscript The Third Alternative--Survivor's Guilt: The Secret Service and the JFK Murder. However, Emory P. Roberts merits the same scrutiny, if not more so; a look at his role is now in order.

Secret Service agent Emory P. Roberts was a former Baltimore policeman3 (and high school colleague of author Howard Donahue of Mortal Error fame)4 who had recently been on President Kennedy's trip to Florida on November 18, 1963. As he was later to do on the fateful Texas trip, Mr. Roberts served as the commander of the agents in the follow-up car, one of two well-used 1956 Cadillac convertibles that sometimes served as the presidential limousine (an example is provided in JFK's summer, 1963, Ireland trip).5 On both trips, Sam Kinney served as the driver of this car.6 As one of three Shift Leaders of the White House Detail (the other two were Stewart G. Stout, Jr. and Arthur L. Godfrey, both also on the Texas trip with Roberts),7 Emory was a stern and forceful agent who took and gave out orders in a serious manner while working on President Kennedy's trips. It was during the Florida trip that some interesting things involving Agent Roberts occurred which would have a direct bearing on November 22, 1963.

The President visited Palm Beach, Miami, and Tampa on November 18, 1963; however, only the beautiful city
of Tampa involved a motorcade, and quite an eventful one at that, as agents Chuck Zboril and Don Lawton were riding on the rear of the limousine, someone from the crowd threw a red "Powerhouse" candy bar at the motorcade, and the confection landed with a "thud" on the hood of the Secret Service follow-up car. Thinking it could be a lethal stick of dynamite, Agent Roberts pushed the object forcefully off the hood. Realizing what the object was, Roberts and the other agents shared a laugh about it.8 But they had had good reason to be jumpy: the atmosphere in Tampa was one that gave the agents cause for concern--hostility from the anti-Castro Cuban community,9 the Joseph Milteer threat,10 and an organized crime related-scare.11 As he had done countless times before, Mr. Roberts had the two agents that were riding on the rear of the presidential limousine "fall back" from time to time (sometimes based on Special Agent in Charge Jerry Behn's suggestion; in this case it was the number two agent, Asst. Special Agent in Charge Floyd Boring). This was quite often a spur-of-the-moment decision based on the speed of the cars, the size and proximity of the crowd, and the potential for threat(s) at the moment12 (often, the two agents of the rear of JFK's limousine took their own initiative in going between the two cars, as agent Clint Hill did several times in Dallas). This will become important later....

Jumping ahead to Dallas on November 22, 1963, (after friendly, enthusiastic, and uneventful motorcades in San Antonio, Houston, and Fort Worth on November 21-22,1963), Agent Roberts assigned the other seven agents on his particular shift to the follow-up car: Sam Kinney, Clint Hill, Paul Landis, William"Tim" McIntyre, Glen Bennett, George Hickey, and John Ready13 -- four of whom had only hours before participated in the in famous drinking incident in Fort Worth. Mr. Roberts' shift was the worst offender of the three shifts!14 What makes this tragic is that Roberts had the most important shift of all: the 8:00a.m. to 4:00 p.m. shift-- the Fort Worth/Dallas part of the Texas trip (the other two
shifts, Agent Stout's 4:00 p.m. to midnight detail and Agent Godfrey's midnight to 8:00 a.m. shift were not actively protecting JFK during the Dallas motorcade. They were all waiting for JFK to complete the motorcade--Stout's detail at the Trade Mart, Godfrey's detail in Austin with Bob Burk and Bill Payne at both the Commodore-Perry Hotel and the LBJ Ranch).

Cover-up number one: Agent Roberts would later write (April 28, 1964) that "there was no question in my mind as to (the agents') physical and mental capacity to function effectively in their assigned duties."15 Like Chief Rowley and Inspector Kelley before both the WC and the HSCA, Agent Roberts covered up the drinking incident, despite Secret Service regulations which stated that this was grounds for removal from the agency.16 Sleep deprivation and alcohol
consumption wreak havoc on even the best trained reflexes. While leaving Love Field on the way to the heart of Dallas, destiny, and murder, Agent Roberts rose from his seat and, using his voice and several hand gestures, forced agent Henry J. Rybka fall back from the rear area of JFK's limousine, causing a perplexed Rybka to stop and raise his arms several times in disgust (Rybka would then remain at the airport during the murder, having been effectively neutralized)
--although Paul Landis made room for him on the right running board of the follow-up car, Agent Rybka did not budge.17 Although Rybka worked the follow-up in Houston the day before18 and was a gun-carrying protective agent, he was not allowed to do his job on November 22,1963 (Rybka has since died...).

Cover-up number two: Both Emory Roberts and Winston Lawson placed Agent Rybka in the follow-up car in their initial reports, only to "correct" the record later, after November 22, although Rybka was not even mentioned anywhere in Agent Lawson's Preliminary Survey Report--making it seem obvious that he was covering Emory Roberts' behind.19 As the cars approached the Main and Houston Street intersection, Clint Hill fell back to the follow-up car. Agent Hill was the only agent to ride on the rear of the limousine in Dallas and he was not even assigned to JFK (as a last-minute addition to the trip, Agent Hill was, like Paul Landis, part of Jackie's detail, and came at the First Lady's personal request). John Ready, a relatively new agent, never approached JFK's side of the limousine. Why not? Emory Roberts explained: "SA Ready would have done the same thing (as Agent Hill did) if motorcycle was not a President's corner of car"(!)20 Strange, but this posed no problem at all for Agent Don Lawton on November 18, 1963, in Tampa21 (but unfortunately, like Rybka, Lawton was left at Love Field and was not in the motorcade detail).22 In any event, there was always cooperation between the motorcycles and the agents; they maneuvered around each other countless times, including in Dallas on November 22.

Cover-up number three: The April 22, 1964 reports from Agents Behn, Boring, Ready, Hill, and Emory Roberts, alleging, after-the-fact, that President Kennedy had ordered agents off the rear of the limousine on November 18, 1963 in Tampa, and in other cities.23 It has to be stated again, and with some new corroboration to boot: JFK never ordered the agents to do anything, let alone telling the men to get off the rear of the limousine (or to take off the bubbletop, reduce the number of motorcycles, etc.). Agents Behn and Boring totally refuted their own (alleged) reports in conversations with me, while agents Kinney, Youngblood, Bouck, Noris, Bolden, Lilly, Martineau, plus two recently-interviewed agents, Don Lawton and Art Godfrey, confirmed the fact that JFK never ordered the agents
to do anything. He was "very cooperative," they told me. Kenny O'Donnell did not "relay" any orders either, and in addition, Dave Powers, Marty Underwood, and a new contact, White House photographer Cecil Stoughton, confirmed to me what all the agents have told me to date!24

CONTINUED...

http://www.jfklink.com/articles/EmoryRoberts.html

Palamara's a genius and a patriot.

[Clinton Crusader]

141. thanks for this...

Going to read the rest. Ive always been suspicious of the frontseat/drivers as well, Greer // Kellerman. If you really watch the Zapruder film over and over and over, ignore JFK and Jackie, watch the front seat. They REPEATEDLY turn around and look at JFK, who has already been shot, the brake lights come on the car over and over, as they turn their heads from front to back, therefore slowing the car down to an excruciatingly slow speed, almost making JFK a STILL target, instead of a moving one. Now, I understand that the shock of the moment can freeze one up, but crikey, these are highly trained SS agents. ALL they had to do was floor it. Of course, he's already been shot, but the chances of the head shot missing entirely would be greatly increased by the speeding car, and that car had a whopper of an engine. Not even mentioning that the hairpin turn onto Elm St. flew in the face of so many SS regulations, it's staggering.

ugh.

You could go on for days..
:mad:

[soothsayer]

143. Yeah, the other dude tells Greer to high tail it out of there, but he

doesn't (in time). Some witnesses say the car had stopped or greatly slowed down before the head shot, and that the zapruder film was edited (frames removed) to make it look like it kept the same speed the whole time, which is why connally's wife can move her head at 100 mph (because they took out frames where she is moving at normal speed). If you look closely, you can see all the passengers lurching forward at times when the car must be braking, even tho the film doesn't make it look like it.

[Clinton Crusader]

145. Yup, I interviewed witnesses...

In Dallas 1983.

They absolutely SWEAR the car slowed down so much, a dog or wheelchair could have outrun it.

And if you go to Dealey Plaza, you simply cannot believe how SMALL it actually is.

[bobbie]

168. Yes, going that speed is against SS rules

Of course all SS rules were broken in Dealey Plaza. And the motorcade route was changed at the 11th hour to move the motorcade from Main--where it could maintain the requisite speed--to Dealey Plaza (the ideal killing zone), which required a very sharp turn at very slow speeds, both of which violated SS rules. The limo driver stopped after the first shot, waited for the killing shot, *then* hit the gas.

According to SS rules windows should be closed in all surrounding buildings, no one on roofs, no umbrellas,...All violated. Yeah, the SS was standing down. Just like NORAD was standing down on 911.

>And if you go to Dealey Plaza, you simply cannot believe how SMALL it actually is.

Really Clinton C., so it looks much bigger in photos?

[Octafish]

148. Clint Hill was the only one on the ball.

He heard shots and saw something going on in the car ahead -- JFK's limo. Hill jumped off his car -- even when Emory Roberts ordered him not to -- and helped get Jackie off the trunk and back inside. She was trying to get a piece of her husband's skull and brains off the trunk. In shock at the time, she said she was worried the doctors might need it at the hospital.

Vince Palamara:

Secret Service and Infrastructure - by Vincent Palamara

BREAKDOWN OF SECRET SERVICE
HIERARCHY and INFRASTRUCTURE

Compiled by Vince Palamara
Author of

"The Third Alternative -- Survivor's Guilt:
The Secret Service and the JFK Murder"

SOURCE: http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/VP/03-VP.html

[soothsayer]

140. Meatloaf (the singer) had his car commandeered by the SS and

they drove to Parklawn Hospital and Meat and his friend sat in the underground garage for hours. They warned them no to leave or they'd be shot. He said that later at a party someone told him something scary about what had really happened but warned him to never reveal it, and he's still scared to! Now who knows if he was told anything 'real' or bogus, but we'll never know cuz it sure put the fear of God in him!

[Clinton Crusader]

144. They went to Parkland Hospital in Dallas? When?

Im not following this, if you have more detail ?

They went to Parkland Hosp., were commandeered by the SS, and held captive in the parking garage??

Yikes.

I went to Parkland a couple of times and they ARE pretty skittish about people walking around. Tried to get to Trauma Room 1 and was stopped by an ARMED guard, no joke. In fact, we stood around so long in Emergency we were asked to leave, after being questionned as to what exactly we were doing there.

:tinfoilhat:

[soothsayer]

189. During a recent Howard Stern interview (7/31/06) Meat talked

about this. Here's the synopsis from marksfriggin.com


Howard thought that Meatloaf had said something about knowing who killed John F. Kennedy. Meatloaf said that's not quite the case. He explained how he was about 14 at the time but he had his driver's license because his mother was sick back then and he needed to get around. He said they all got out of school and went to see where Kennedy was driving through. He said that they got to see Kennedy up close that day before he went on his final drive. Meatloaf heard a conversation between a cop and another guy who asked the cop what he would do if he had a gun. The cop said something about how he wouldn't do anything as long as he didn't take it out. Meatloaf said he thought that was kind of odd but they just kept going.

Meatloaf said they went to a bowling alley and when they got there they heard that the President had been shot. They hopped in their car and headed down to see what was going on. As they were on their way a guy claiming to be from the Secret Service stopped them and took their car to the hospital. They were told not to get out of the car so they just sat there and waited. They were actually there at the hospital before Kennedy's car got there.

Howard thought that Meatloaf had said he knew something that he wasn't telling them. Meatloaf said he did go to someone's house, whose name he will not mention, and he was told not to ever ask about who actually show JFK. He said the guy told him that and it scared the hell out of him so he stopped asking about it. So there was nothing to the story at all.

snip

and from www.Howardstern.com

Howard said Meat claimed he knew who shot John F. Kennedy, but he replied that wasn’t exactly the case. Meat then recalled he was in Dallas on the day of the assassination, and when one of his friends, who was able to shake the president’s hand that morning, asked a police officer who was standing nearby what he would’ve done had he been carrying a gun, the officer responded “nothing as long as you didn’t take it out.” Meat next reported he and his friends were driving through the city following the shooting, and a Secret Service agent pulled them over and confiscated his car to drive to the hospital. Meat went on to say he and his friends were instructed to remain in the car, which he said they did for two hours until Kennedy’s body arrived and the Secret Service agent left them.

Meat proceeded to claim, a decade later, he asked someone at a party who killed Kennedy, and he was warned never to ask that question again because he might bring it up to the wrong person.

Despite his story, Robin felt it didn’t shed any new light on the assassination.

[rainbow4321]

196. "they did for two hours until Kennedy’s body arrived"

"They were actually there at the hospital before Kennedy's car got there."


Something doesn't add up..maybe it was the way he worded it. Makes it sound like it took 2 hours for JFK to *get to* PMH when in reality it is a really short drive from Dealey to the hospital. Maybe he meant they had to wait in the car for 2 hours while the SS was in the ER w/ JFK's body?

[soothsayer]

203. The way he said it, they arrived at the hospital before JFK did,

and had to wait in the garage for two hours until the SS said they could go

[rainbow4321]

195. Parkland guards have reason to be that way

Most likely they have seen their fair share of characters who would do harm to the staff in a heartbeat.
It's a county hospital in a rough neighborhood and probably has the worst Friday/Saturday night "gun and knife club" (i.e patients who show up w/ these kinds of wounds--sometimes their attackers can follow them to the ER) nights/population than anywhere in the city. They even have a separate, specific "Psych ER" where patients are brought for emergency psychiatric evals. Hell, I *worked* in other areas of PMH and the thought of wandering down to the ER to visit co-workers/friends was a really scary thought.
Having said all that, it's one of the best damn trauma centers around--I've had more than one nurse friend say that they have told their family that if they (the nurse) are in a traumatic accident of any sort, they better be at PMH when they come around/wake up and not at some pretty, safe suburban hospital where they are much more likely to not survive their injuries.

[midnight]

152. I tried to down load this video but it took so long that I'm hoping

some one will let me know what that yellow arrow is pointing to-thanks.

[LiberalUprising]

184. try right clicking this link and save as

http://www.fugly.com/media/videodir1159898162/Interesting/jfk-secret-service.wmv

[sce56]

163. there is lots of things that need explaining about SS agents actions that

day


See how the driver is waiting for and looking at JFK to see the fatal hit before he hits the gas!
See http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/index1.htm for lots of interesting data




4. George Bush

A November 29, 1963, memorandum from FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover to the Director of the Bureau of Intelligence and Research at the Department of State refers to the fact that information on the assassination of President Kennedy was "orally furnished to Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency." At the request of the Review Board, the CIA made a thorough search of its records in an attempt to determine if the "George Bush" referred to in the memorandum might be identical to President and former Director of Central Intelligence George Herbert Walker Bush. That search determined that the CIA had no association with George Herbert Walker Bush during the time frame referenced in the document.

The records that the Review Board examined showed that the only other "George Bush" serving in the CIA in 1963 was a junior analyst who has repeatedly denied being the "George Bush" referenced in the memorandum. The Review Board staff found one reference to an Army Major General George Bush in the calendars of Director of Central Intelligence Allen Dulles. There was no indication if this General Bush could be the referenced George Bush. The Review Board marked the calendar page as an assassination record.

+ So the George Bush mentioned in this memorandum could not be found by the CIA? Neither the Major General George Bush mentioned in the calendar of CIA director Allen Dulles? Even though Dulles, as we have seen, was on a first name basis with Prescott Bush? Was the Assassinations Records Review Board not advised that it is practically standard procedure for the CIA to purge the files of sensitive covert intelligence operatives? Why did the ARRB ask the fox to investigate who ate the chickens, and was then satisfied with the answer? Why are there no records on James Files, the man who claims to be the gunman on the grassy knoll? Why does his birth certificate state "deceased at birth"? How can this man be alive and well in prison, if he was deceased at birth? Did Hoover and Dulles make up a fictional George Bush?
+ It can now be conclusively shown that both Gerald Ford and Arlen Specter (now a senator for Pennsylvania) tampered with the medical evidence of JFK's autopsy and put these lies in the Warren Report.
+ Hale Boggs sat on the Warren Commission, which concluded that President Kennedy was slain by a lone assassin. Later, in 1971 and '72, Boggs said that the Warren Report was false and that J. Edgar Hoover's FBI not only helped cover up the JFK murder but blackmailed Congress with massive wire-tapping and spying. He named Warren Commission staff member Arlen Specter as a major cover-up artist. Congressman Boggs' plane disappeared on a flight to Alaska in 1972. The press, the military, and the CIA publicly proclaimed the plane could not be located. Investigators later said that was a lie, that the plane had been found. On the plane were Nick Begich, a very popular Democratic Congressman, and Don Jonz, an aide to Mr. Boggs. All were killed.

During the preparations of the House Select Committee on Assassinations, pressure is applied to Texan Bill Lord not to testify for the committee. Bill Lord was a fellow marine and roommate of Lee Harvey Oswald on a ship voyage to France. Lord expresses his concern in a letter to president Carter. He writes that Oswald was connected to the FBI and CIA and concludes that the CIA and the FBI are complicit in JFK's death and the coup d'etat that occurred on 11/22/1963. He also states that one of the Midland, TX politicians applying pressure to him, was Mr. George W. Bush junior . This letter to President Carter was declassified some years ago. Here's a fragment:
One of the parties which has blitzed me with telephone calls trying to persuade me to tell them what I know about Oswald, is engaged in a very costly project which allows them to locate, interview, monitor, and influence every single available person who ever knew Lee Oswald--and this, just in advance of the new governmental investigation by the house select committee on Assassinations. I finally consented, not to grant an interview, but to allow the publication's representative to explain their project to me in person. After a lunch interview with this researcher, I was told that if I had refused even to meet with him, pressure was in the offing from two Midland men: Mr. Jim Allison, publisher of the ultra-conservative Reporter-Telegram, my employer (out of necessity, and for the moment!), and Mr. George Bush, Jr.

... Shortly thereafter, my mother discovered that her telephone had been tampered with. The casing around the dialing aparatus had been pulled out about one-half inch... we cannot doubt that someone entered the house at a time when I was at work and my mother was away; she returned to the house, however, at an unaccustomed time... I have been in anguish for weeks, Mr. President, trying my best to laugh at my apprehensions and to see these events as fortuitous ones... Speaking as the man who spent more than two weeks in the same ship's cabin with Lee Oswald at the time of his 1959 "defection", and speaking as a man who has been the subject of the above.
See the original letter here (page 1) here (page 2) and here (page 3)
+ There are numerous indications and allegations that Nixon's Watergate scandal had a direct connection with the Kennedy assassination and that every time that Nixon is talking about the danger that the "Bay of Pigs thing" might be exposed because of Watergate, he was actually covertly referring to the Kennedy assassination. None of these rumours could solidify, because shortly before his resignation, Nixon replaced Spiro Agnew by Gerald Ford as his vice president, who promptly pardoned him from further prosecution. The allegations of a direct connection with Dallas are certainly not unfounded, considering the incomplete official story and the preponderance of Watergate individuals connected to the Bay of Pigs and the Kennedy assassination. When it became clear that Watergate may not be kept under the lid, Nixon fires and replaces his entire administration with the exception of George H.W. Bush, because "he will do anything for our cause".
From a radio interview with investigative journalist Jim Marrs:
J – Yes, George, and let me say this: I don't want everybody to think that just Lyndon Johnson was involved in this, or that it was just the democrats or whatever. I’m looking here at a book written by H.R Haldeman, who was ...
G – He was one of Nixon’s men!
J – Yes, one of Nixon’s boys, and here he writes , he says, if you all remember during Watergate the Nixon Tapes and all the focus over that: Nixon went to pay 2 million dollars to E. Howard Hunt, a CIA officer, who was leading and training the anti-Castro Cubans, he (Nixon) said: "Pay him the 2 million dollars! This could open up the whole Bay of Pigs thing! This could look bad for us, this could look bad for the CIA!"And in Haldeman's book, he says that it seems that in all these Nixon references to the Bay of Pigs, he was actually referring to the Kennedy assassination! More information here
+ George H.W. Bush failed to disclose his friendship with George De Mohrenschildt, a renowned oil geologist and Lee Harvey Oswald's best friend in Dallas. They knew each other since 1942, probably even longer, because in 1939 he went to work for Humble Oil, a company founded by Prescott Bush. In 1977, when De Mohrenschildt is located by investigators of the House Select Committee on Assassinations, who want to interview him, he allegedly commits suicide the following day. The last person to interview him on the day he died, is Jay Edward Epstein, a writer/historian and a known apologist for the Warren Report since day one. Epstein married a CIA agent and is the biographer of former CIA-director James Jesus Angleton, presumably in charge of Oswald's "defection" to Russia. Interestingly, Epstein is also the "consultant" that was suddenly hired by NBC in 1995, when NBC was making a program for national TV on the confession of James E. Files. The program was promptly cancelled.

[Imagevision]

167. JFK wanted to end Viet Nam - Johnson orders 50,000 more to go 01/64

as we know, there is some bucks to made from these war's... which by the way, Nixon finally pulled out of on; (Kennedy was murdered for a reason)

--> April 30, 1975 - At 8:35 a.m., the last Americans, ten Marines from the embassy, depart Saigon, concluding the United States presence in Vietnam. North Vietnamese troops pour into Saigon and encounter little resistance. By 11 a.m., the red and blue Viet Cong flag flies from the presidential palace. President Minh broadcasts a message of unconditional surrender. The war is over.

Nixon declares; "we're pulling out of Viet Nam with peace and honor"

[elehhhhna]

172. mother FUCKERS

god damn them all

[thingfisher]

179. After all this time

it's amazing the number of comments that the JFK murder will generate.

The thing I do not understand is how so many American citizens refuse to see the assasination in the context of US history since the event. The criminals who were involved in the murder and cover up have been in positions of power since that day. The Bush dynasty is certainly in part the result of that event. The degredation of our republic has been non-stop since JFK.

Unfortunately, we have had more faith in the innate goodness of our government than is warranted by its record. Now that the Bill of Rights has finally been diminished and the power of the president has been expanded far beyond anything imagined by the "imperial" presidency of Mr. Nixon we are beginning to see the fruition of the murder in Dallas after all these years.

Arguments over bullet trajectories, head wounds, witness intimidation, etc. are pretty pointles at this juncture. It is the historical relevance of the assasination that matters most and the effects it has had on our subsequent history.

It is what gave birth to "conspiracy theory" thinking and for good reason. Secrecy and the national security state has led to a culture in which no one can be certain about anything and anything can be concealed behind the cloak of national security concerns. Sept. 11th, 2001 comes readily to mind. This has not come about by accident, but has been pursued through decades of effort and deception and the gullible are still fooled by righteous posturing and the stigma of the "tin foil hatter" label should they veer into sensitive territory.

As America leads the way toward the New World Order one can only cringe at what fate lies in store for our people. The handwriting is already on the wall. A totally integrated world economy will sooner or later demand a world government enforcing global laws to maintain order. I doubt that the American Constitution will be the template template of choice.

[Octafish]

181. A Short History of ''Conspiracy Theory''

Agree whole-heartedly with what you wrote.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=757860&mesg_id=762001

A hearty welcome to DU, thingfisher. Great album cover, that.

[glitch]

193. Well said and welcome to DU! nt

[Imagevision]

218. I believe the folks who brought us JFK's demise , created 9-11 also...

"The country needs a jolt every 10 years or so to unite the country --> "George H.W. Bush"

[Imagevision]

178. The Great Zapruder Film Hoax (Link)

goto --> http://www.assassinationscience.com/bookthree.html

The government edited the original zapruder film for public consumption - the original was purchased by our government for 8 million to the Zapruder family so public access would not be possible.

[mikelewis]

185. And the point is what? Who cares if he was assasinated by Oswald or...

by our government... No one... I repeat... No one is going to do anything about it so what good does this do anyone? It's better to not know anything and pretend America is an Angel on Earth than to know and be tortured by impotence. Close your eyes to the truth and just go back to sleep... time will kill everyone of the one's responsible and the children of the killers will rule your children forever. They got away with it and no one is going to hold anyone accountable. That is the only fact you can bank on. No amount of "knowledge" is going to change anything because the Earth belongs to the devils who are ruthless enough to take it. If you haven't learned that by now... you haven't been paying attention.

[goddess40]

194. how sad

I wish they could talk to the guy that was called off but I'm guessing he's dead.

[elehhhhna]

209. Next up :The assasination of Dr. King.

Our Government's on automatic (Pontius) Pilate

[wicket]

213. kick

:kick:

[SouthernBelle82]

214. This is old

I've seen this. As a person who studies the JFK assissination it's not new. It's definitley when I knew there was something more going on.

[LiberalUprising]

219. I know

about 43 years old

[skypilot]

216. kick

*

[wicket]

220. kick

:kick: