I had dinner with Fox News loyalists.

[The Backlash Cometh]

Nice, good people, mind you, and the evening was a cut above the usual depressing experience I have with the right-wing end of the family. Maybe it's because we weren't related, that the night was so civil?

Anyways, it's obvious that their exclusive dedication to Fox is keeping their ideas stagnant. They still talked longedly about Bush's bullhorn moment in NY City; they still believed that Bush's strength is that he doesn't pay attention to polls, but made a decision and stuck with it. They believed that Iraq was a brilliant idea because it created a vacuum that sucked all the Al Qaeda operatives where we could pick them off, and of course, we're not fighting them here because we're fighting them there. These people felt that Iraq was a good plan, but that our country doesn't have the resolve to follow it through. (None of them had children that would ever be considered for a draft.) They admitted that the "plan" couldn't be sustained forever, but at least with all these NSA wiretappings, we could identify who were the supporters of Al Qaeda so we'd be prepared to track their movements better.

They were very committed to Fox News. One of them stated that Ted Turner admitted that the other news networks were Liberal biased. He said when asked what he thought about FoxNews, Ted replied that it's good that Republicans have at least one network that caters to them. (I paraphrase).

By the way, they despise Katie Couric. They feel she is representative of the Liberal Media. Poor Katie. I told them that the liberals don't like her either. They were bewildered until I told them that you'll only hear Liberal news on the internet or on Olberman. They called me a blogger, just because I get my news on the internet.

One was concerned that Nancy Pelosi would be president if the Democrats won in 2006 and impeached Bush and if Cheney died of a heart attack. He was a bit relieved when we told him that Bush could always appoint any vice-president before he stepped down from office.

They all liked, Cheney, by the way. And admitted, almost ashamed by their irreverence, that Cheney was more intelligent than Bush. They concluded that the problem with this country is that people are not accustom to having a manager for president. I found that to be a very revealing statement, since Bush has run roughshod over our Constitution. Are our countrymen now so trained to obey their CEOs, that they've forgotten that our Constitution comes first?

They absolutely knew nothing about PNAC or none of them had heard of the term "neo-con." They did think that Bush was getting all of his bad ideas from Karl Rove.

So, in sum, claiming that Fox News is a Republican network, only encourages them to continue watching Fox News, and ignoring the other networks. You'll have to go the next step further and find a way to show that Fox News is intentionally misleading them, and keeping information from them. I quieted them when I told them that I read the liberal blogs precisely because I wanted answers and because you can get news from the liberal blogs much earlier than you can from the papers or any network or cable news. For an example, I told them that I knew about the bin Laden family flight out of the U.S. from "the blogs" two years before it was reported in the news. They respected that piece of info because the fact that Bush still hasn't caught bin Laden, is a sign of failure.

Anyways, I think they're beginning to realize that something went wrong with the Bush plan, but they have no where else to go.

[PCIntern]

1. My appetite disappears at meals

with these folk.

I don't know how political 'mixed marriages' survive - the sex would have to be fantastic.

[The Backlash Cometh]

11. Hubby is neutral, but I think he understands that one day soon he'll have

to defend me against his siblings.

The reason why I'm indebted for life to the right-wingers we ate dinner with last night is a good example of the cognitive dissonance that exists in our country. I'm married to a white male. Fifteen years ago when Affirmative Action was making a huge impact in the business world, in the particular department my husband worked in, white men were dropping like flies. The person in power was a woman and the only white males that survived where those that shared her same or similar cultural roots. I cannot even begin to explain the stress that our young family endured living in a situation where we never knew if my husband would come home with news that he was canned. So, here I am a supporter of Affirmative Action, even though I know intimately, the negative side. I can say that I've lived in both worlds.

Anyways, these right-wingers recognized my husband's abilities and gave him a chance in another department which gave us a reprieve from the insanity of that time. So, I'm indebted to them that way.

[PCIntern]

24. I understand completely...

I of course, am also a white male, although Jewish, but since I'm a Healthcare Professional, I gain entrance to the club as a 'mascot' or more accurrately, a court jester. Fact is, that one-on-one, these RWers have been more than nice to me personally and professionally, although they can guess or in fact, know, my personal ideology. I make no bones about being a liberal, pro-Zionist, lefty. There are not that many of us left I might add.

But I am anything by apologetic and for that, on a personal basis, they respect me, if not my ideals. I have been in practice in the same location for 27 years and the one thing they know me for is my consistency. They are appreciative and loyal.

[suziedemocrat]

2. These "good" people are willfully ignorant.

Fox keeps them from facing the truth.

[The Backlash Cometh]

12. It's our job to "save" them.

These are very good people. They're worth the trouble.

[lostnotforgotten]

44. I Could Not Disagree More

Sorry,

I am out at the stage of following their immortal wisdom and applying it retroactively.

Shoot the Republicans and let their "God" sort it out.

I have had it with the willful ignorance, the knowing self deception, the slothful excuses of being to busy, etc, etc , etc.

My charity has been exhausted with these people.

Mind you I was unemployed for 5 YEARS at the hands of these type of people.

Enough is enough!

[The Backlash Cometh]

46. I fully understand your sentiments.

[lostnotforgotten]

50. My Patience Ran Out With The Exhaustion Of My Retirement

After five years of being unemployed my meager retirement was decimated.

Luckily I found work.

Mind you I have heard all the right-wing "bullshit" about "pulling oneself up by their own bootstraps".

My bootstraps:

BSEE
MBA,
Honorably Discharged Naval Officer
Commercial Pilot

But in their Amerika, that's not enough.

I will go to my grave with enough anger, rage, hate, and venom to fill the hearts of 100 men for these people.

I wish them nothing but the worst: sickness, death, poverty, etc.

Let them get a taste of what life is like for many others in the world.

My charity and empathy for these folks is GONE, GONE, GONE!

[The Backlash Cometh]

51. For most of them, nothing is ever enough.

You just can't please most of them. I think they intentionally want to keep the wedges deep.

[lostnotforgotten]

52. At Least Your Honest About What These People Truly Are

Invite me to your next dinner party.

I assure you it will be lively.

I have yet to meet any Republican that I can't smack down.

I am also rather large and intimidating looking.

They will cower in fear once I am down.

Maybe that will keep them away from the polls.

[mitchum]

65. I am in complete agreement with you

[SharonAnn]

78. I point out that Fox is "Opinion" not "News"

That they're very good about telling the viewers their opinion about something or someone, even thought what they're talking about may not have happened, but they don't provide real information.

Sometimes when I'm talking with them ona subject and they disagree and denywhat I say, i respond with "You can look it up! It's documented, verifiable, been written about and been published. I don't know why Fox doesn't provide you with the news, with real information, with the facts."

I just continually respond with "That's not news, that's opnion. There's a difference."

I just don't let them get away with claiming that Fox is a news source any more.

[The Backlash Cometh]

80. I think the cat's out of the bag.

The fact that they accept it's Republican news means that they understand that it's slanted in their favor.

[mmonk]

3. Good for you for engaging dialogue.

I have a real hard time with that.

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. Oh, so do I.

I knew these people, and became bonded to them long before the craziness of the right-wing conspiracy of the late nineties.

[NNN0LHI]

4. Fox news is a cult n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

14. Well, maybe it's time that we become deprogrammers.

[lonestarnot]

5. Did you mention anything about an 'obligation' to stay informed?

Or anything about the rings in their noses?

[The Backlash Cometh]

15. Of course not. I listened last night, I mean really listened, more than

I have before.

[lonestarnot]

17. yeck! yeck! yeck! What a waste of time.

[The Backlash Cometh]

19. Not really. I listened so that I could report back to you all, so that

wiser minds prevailed. You have to understand them, before we can figure out how to reach them.

[lonestarnot]

25. I hold out no hope for them, none whatsoever. Good night and

good luck.

[The Backlash Cometh]

26. I am afraid you might be right.

But, there's no reason why we can't leave a trail of bread crumbs.

[clu]

6. cookie-cutter pattern

i work with a few repubs... they're just as you describe. their type of reasoning seems like it would respond well to the socratic method but i'm not fast enough on my feet.

[The Backlash Cometh]

16. I'm not fast on my feet, either.

I just gave the url to Rawstory to the one who says he does take a peek to outside sources.

[C_U_L8R]

7. chilling - they believe their own bullshit

and it's a good lesson for all of us...
don't get high on your own supply

[The Backlash Cometh]

18. Well, one thing that we can all agree on, we all don't like corruption.

So, the Dems would be smart to clean out their own camp, because last night, they dropped examples of corruption that were obstacles to bridging our differences.

[OwnedByFerrets]

8. Its my feeling

that these people(b*sh followers and apologists) are just as guilty of war crimes as his cabal is. They voted for him and they support them. They are just as guilty as the sycophants that supported Hitler.
I have a few friends that still support monkeyboy, but I find it harder and harder to even be anywhere near them because of what is being done to our Constitution and the murder or hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's.
I feel dirty whenever I am in a situation where they cant be avoided.

[clu]

9. imo

maybe just the hardcore 30%

[The Backlash Cometh]

20. I'm willing to bet that someday, these people will be ashamed of

their support for Bush, and that Fox News will be vilified by them.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

53. i used to think that too.

6 years later,eh, not so much.

[suziedemocrat]

77. I'm with you - I'm starting to blame Bush supporters as well as Bush.

There is NO EXCUSE to still support Bush after all that we know. I don't want to be in the same room as these people!

[BootinUp]

10. These people are the stuff at the bottom of the glass

Sorry. Mostly backwash.

[The Backlash Cometh]

22. Most are.

Some are worth reaching. Last night I think I met some who are worth the trouble.

[Toots]

21. Maybe ask them if they think Republicans have ever been wrong about anythi

And if they say of course ask them to explain what is was and who if anyone was held accountable. That usually stumps them because it can't be so. If they were ever wrong then the opposition must have been right and that is simply unthinkable...

[The Backlash Cometh]

23. They didn't like Karl Rove. That's a start. They think he's the one

who has been misleading Bush. They really, really liked Bush when he came across like a regular guy. The bull horn moment and the time he leaned on the podium and talked into the camera in a sincere manner. And now that I've mentioned that on the internet, I bet we'll see him do the leaning-on-the-podium thing again in some future press conference.

[leesa]

29. How do they explain all the snarling, irritable, swearing moments he has?

I have never seen anyone so unappealling as a "regular guy". Do they mention how they miss this image or how they process this?

I suspect they simply believe whatever Faux tells them to believe about the man. Don't believe your lying eyes...

[The Backlash Cometh]

31. Is Fox News showing him snarling?

Fox News knows their audience. If we ever determine that they are tapping into that for reasons that are contrary to the safety of this country. albeit misguided as they are, I think that network is going to have a great fall.

[fooj]

42. The problem in a nutshell...

Little Lord Pissypants isn't a regular guy. Geesh.......

[The Backlash Cometh]

43. Well, maybe, that's our burden of proof.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

55. the bullhorn moment.

did you mention to them that the bullhorn moment consisted of Bush turning to a firefighter to his left and yelling into a bullhorn right next to this guy's ear. that's all i remember from that moment aside from him standing on the smoking ruin of his own inadequacy.

[The Backlash Cometh]

60. I know better than to interrupt a man when he's praying to his god.

[mitchum]

66. Why did they like his standing on top of DEAD BODIES during...

"the bullhorn moment"? Because that is what he was doing...

[RevolutionStartsNow]

27. "They called me a blogger"

:rofl:

Is that as bad as being a "liberal", I wonder?

Actually your experience mirrors my recent conversation/debate with a Fox News conservative. He believes that Bush is strong and decisive and that it's Congress' fault that we aren't winning in Iraq, and the general lack of support for the war from Americans.

The ignorance is just stunning.

[The Backlash Cometh]

32. That blogger thing really has me mystified.

But, yeah, I think "blogger" is the next bad word. Wait until they hear about freerepublic.com

[Canuckistanian]

68. Oh, that mean Congress - They never give Bush what he wants

What, do they really think Congress is hindering Bunnypants and causing such a fiasco?

[The Backlash Cometh]

70. They did blame Congress, come to think about it.

I asked them why things aren't better when they have full control of the Congress and the executive branch? I told them that the Republicans don't even caucus anymore because they're playing out of the same playbook. They didn't believe it. They said there were too many people who were too independent-minded.

Where's the disconnect?

[RevolutionStartsNow]

74. The disconnect is in their tiny little brains

The sense I got is that this particular guy I was debating with was just repeating opinions he'd heard on Rush or Hannity ("it's Congress' fault!").

I really wanted to remind him that Bush insisted that he's "The Decider", so any decision is his fault, not Congress', but that seemed too mean.

J.

[The Backlash Cometh]

75. Well, then Limbaugh needs to be challenged.

The Repubs have used some dirty-tricks to keep their party members in line. That's what needs to be aired on Fox News.

[Joanne98]

28. Telling them that you can get the news FIRST on the internet...

is a good tactic. they may try it just because they don't want to be the last people to know anything.

[The Backlash Cometh]

33. Well, I laid out the bread crumbs. Let's hope they wake up hungry.

[tsuki]

30. Once I point out that Fox News is controlled by the Saudi's, support

for it disappears, at least in my presence. They don't want to believe it, but then, I go through the entire changing the headlines on Fox from Muslim riots and to youth riots, and Prince Al-Waleed Bin Tahal (the richest man in the world) calling up his buddy Rupert to change the headline. Too bad that the Prince has a BIG mouth and bragged about it at a conference in Dubai. That got the emirs to buy up three percent of CNN and still buying. Al-Jaazer is here.

They may still watch it, but the seed is planted.

[The Backlash Cometh]

34. I haven't heard that one.

Any link available so I can get informed enough to use it in my next conversation?

[tsuki]

59. Here is some. I used to have the article from the original paper.

I probably still do, but it is lost in favorites somewhere. I shall keep looking for it.


http://thinkprogress.org/2005/12/12/saudi-prince-calls-murdoch/

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=90439

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20490

http://195.224.230.11/english/?id=15135

[The Backlash Cometh]

61. Thanks!

[stepnw1f]

35. Fox News will Prove to be the Modern Day Version of Geobbels

Fox punditry rants against people of different points of view leads to an "End Game" of intolerance, ignorance and hatred, maybe even violence.... a news network based on lies.

[Warren DeMontague]

36. You should ask them, if the wiretapping and whatnot is designed to find

out who the "supporters of terrorists" are and catch them, how long it's going to be before the Anthrax Mailer, the People who sold Tim McVeigh his copy of The Turner Diaries, or the folks who hid Eric Rudolph out in Appalachia are shipped off to Gitmo?

[blue cat]

37. I'm glad that there are people like you

who are willing to engage the dark side. I just can't anymore. I find myself making excuses to avoid happy hours with those that still support Bush. I will date liberal men only. My right wing family has come around some lately, so this will be the first Thanksgiving where no political brawl is expected.

[The Backlash Cometh]

45. Oh, I'm a long way from being brave enough to intentionally

put myself in a position to engage right-wingers. These particular right-wingers touched my heart, long before Bush and the right-wing conspiracy ever had an impact on our lives.

[Cha]

38. Ah, fauxsnews and the already dumbed down

of America. The land just ripe for a dictatorship and a well known monkeyboy has been groomed by fauxsux for 6 years for the takeover. Will it take? Will the koolaid drinkers get their way and have the two bit hustler as their dic?

I doubt it..I hope they have a rude awakening someday and wonder where all the blissed out willfull ignorance went.

[The Backlash Cometh]

47. I just wonder in what form that rude awakening will come?

[historian]

57. for selfish reasons

Most rude awakenings in america comes when it hit the pocket books. Its a very sad thing to say, but history has shown that. When people are kept away from their suv's because of the price of gas, or when cable fees get so high that can no longer watch tv - then they'll "revolt:.

[Cha]

58. Too true, historian..

and in The Land Of Plenty in the 21st Century it will be Rude, indeed.

So it's probably going to get a lot worse before any rumblings of awakenings flutter.

[The Backlash Cometh]

62. Well, some of these people have expensive toys.

I don't really understand why they can't see there is a much larger economic picture here?

[LibertyorDeath]

39. No offense but they sound like they are

incapable of independent thought.

"They believed that Iraq was a brilliant idea "

"their exclusive dedication to Fox "

[The Backlash Cometh]

48. I know, I know. It's hard to explain.

[barbtries]

40. they actually sound

determinedly and pathetically willfully ignorant. where did this comfort come from? do you know my oldest brother? the last time we spoke may be the last time we speak...unless we can stay away from the reality of what has gone on and is going on in this once great country of ours. sigh.

[The Backlash Cometh]

49. I think it's a deliberate amnesia.

These people love America and all things American. I just think that between outsourcing and Affirmative Action, they've lost their way because of the hard times they experienced. Maybe they weren't use to being treated the way the rest of us are ordinarly treated? And maybe they had an idea of what it was suppose to be like, living like a "white man" as one woman once put it? However, I will say that some had it good, and maybe too good. Back in the days when pensions were thought to be safe and benefits were wonderful. Maybe they just took too much for granted?

[yurbud]

41. I'm impressed they knew who Rove was

[pat_k]

54. Belief people v. knowledge people

Something I posted on Salon's Table talk last year. It's a framework some have found helpful in dealing with "Belief-people"

http://january6th.org/post_of_the_week.html#pmk

[The Backlash Cometh]

63. Absolutely.

Clinton calls "belief people," ideologues. Still, it is a good thing to listen to them, because sometimes you can learn about problem areas by determining what they focus on. Their conclusions may be wrong, but the fact that they picked up on something, is sometimes worth a second look.

[pat_k]

84. If we have any interest in making a connection, listening is critical. .

Belief people are first and foremost people -- and all people have a basic need to be heard/acknowledged.

A belief-person is probably more likely to join us in believing something if connect with them. We can connect with others by hearing them out and trying to see past their assertions to the feelings behind those assertions. Even if the ideas are repugnant to us, if we can see the fears, or the hopes, or the unmet needs that are behind the beliefs, we can connect through the commonality of human emotion. Hearing someone out and acknowledging is not acceptance or agreement. After "hearing out" we must respond honestly. Perhaps they will hear us if we are clear about what it is that so disturbs us. For example, the fears or sadness that their beliefs spark in us.

As critical as listening is to making a connection, this sort of "compassionate confrontation" approach is demanding. It only makes sense when we are sufficiently motivated to make a connection with a particular individual for some reason.

More often than not, particularly if the confrontation is in a public forum of some sort, a more direct, less demanding, "violent" approach is called for (violent in that the goal is to "trap" -- to leave no exit). For a discussion/sample of this type of exchange, see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1440587&mesg_id=1441121">this post.

When beliefs are adopted because authority figures promote the belief, the whole process becomes "people-based." This is why belief people tend to attack a belief by attacking the people promoting the belief, not the facts behind it. It probably follows that interpersonal factors play a bigger role in "belief-formation" for belief people than they do for idea-focused people. Shared needs and emotions come into play and can provide a basis for connection, but there are other dimensions to contend with -- e.g., authoritarian/follower tendencies, anger (the louder and more angry, the "righter"), tendency to blame, accuse, and punish.

There are people out there who have proven themselves to be impervious to anything but force. For these people, "violence" (in our own self-defensive) is in order. (e.g., http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Senator/1">The RoadMap to Impeachment: "Violence" is The Answer).

----------------------------
BTW -- This is a 'working model'. I'm not sure that I conveyed this very well in the original post.

To be clear, I am not labeling to name call or to engage in an academic exercise of enumerating characteristics of the two groups.

The "model" is intended to provide guidance in how to deal with people who have different styles of relating to the world than our own. The admittedly over-simplified assumptions are only useful as long as they provide guidance that "works."

The simple act of recognizing that a group of Xs may in fact be composed of very different subgroups forces us to let go of expectations about the nature of an X -- and letting go of expectations in and of itself is very useful.

It's akin to recognizing that cats and dogs are different creatures. If, despite countless interactions with cats, you kept expecting cats to act like dogs, and kept treating them like dogs, you would probably get extremely frustrated and develop an unfavorable opinion of cats because they fail to be "dog-like" (and the cats wouldn't be so happy with you either).

It seems to me that many of "us" have been doing something akin to this -- i.e., despite all evidence that there are people out there who have a very different way of relating to the world, we keep expecting them to meet a set of expectations that just don't apply. As consequence, our efforts to "reach them" are unproductive -- and even counter-productive.

There are implications of this "model" that can inform our strategies for influencing public opinion and implications that inform our approach to interpersonal communication. I hit on some of the "interpersonal" ones above.

On the public opinion front, if trying to influence folks on the other end of the spectrum by "educating them" isn't very productive, we shouldn't keep trying to do it. We need to stop worrying about alienating them too. Their beliefs are what they are. These folks are not listening to our "messages."

For example, stop focusing inordinate amounts of energy on the tiny percentage of "swing voters." Make it a volume business. Start with the "low handing fruit." Move the people already "on our side" over a notch -- inspire them to be a bit more active than they are, inspire them to support bolder actions than they do now.

Try to influence moderates, instead of bending over backwards to "moderate" the message for them (and in rhe process of moderating, suck all the power out of those messages). Folks "in the middle" are reachable, but they won't move if we don't make an effort to grab them and pull them over a notch. Figure out ways to show the people who have opted out that there is hope. Hope is always more appealing than cynicism, and many of those cynics are looking for a reason to hope and jump into the game.

The more people we move, the more "belief people" we will see get pulled along

[Selatius]

88. I had arrived to a similar conclusion to yours in the past

For me, I told myself that it would be a waste of time to try to "convert" the "true believers." The only productive area would be converting those in the muddled middle. I parlayed this notion into political advice:

If you want to win big, you've got to formulate a message the left as well as the center agrees. If you can win both the middle and the left with your message, you win. As a result, I would say the message to victory is "economic populism." When you talk about jobs, outsourcing, free trade, stagnant wages, don't let them change the subject to gays, abortion, and other wedge issues.

However, this advice is moot if you adopt economic policies that generally attack working class interests. A good example is a Democrat who voted for that atrocious "bankruptcy reform" bill written by credit card company lobbyists. For that Democrat, he's just making it harder for himself to utilize the message of economic populism to win. If he has trouble, as a result, distinguishing himself from his Republican opponent, that's largely his own fault.

[historian]

56. That is the strengthof the republicans

they cater to people they know dont want to think; who accept any comment as gospel (as long as its from the right) but, most alarming of all, who stick their heads in the sand and wont listen to anyone else's point of view unless, of course, their beliefs bite them in the ass.
Oh wait its clintons penis fault.

[driver8]

64. I can understand not hearing about the PNAC...but "neo-con"??

That is absolutely amazing. The phrase "neo-con" is used in many different publications and news outlets.

It really is amazing to me that the rethugs are so good at controlling the messages that the people hear.

[The Backlash Cometh]

71. Selective deafness? Maybe they never paid attention to it, because

it doesn't already fit into their ideology of what's happening?

[Mugu]

67. I applaud your good manners while dealing with people

that do not see the world through the same eyes as you. You can’t possibly change their views if you are unable/unwilling to speak in a civil manner.

There are numerous people that I have frequent contact with whom I have nothing in common when it comes to politics, but I still value their knowledge in other areas. One is my goto guy with local nature questions, another for tooling/machining/welding, yet another for legal issues, etc.

I believe that shouting at or shunning them will do nothing to change their views and will only serve to make them believe that I’m the unbalanced one.

Best regards,

Mugu

[The Backlash Cometh]

72. Well, admittedly, this is a first time for me.

[neebob]

69. Would you please have dinner with my mother?

If you could get her questioning "her Fox News," I'd be most grateful.

As for the problem with this country, I think we've all become accustomed to having an evil retard for president.

[The Backlash Cometh]

73. I think the key is maybe to call their bluff?

Maybe go with the tide and agree that FoxNews is Republican all the time, so when they get caught in their obvious lies, make it obvious that FoxNews is representative of the Republican party?

We can start with those court cases in Florida where Fox News argued that they had the right to intentionally mislead the public based on the First Amendment?

[neebob]

76. My mother wouldn't even agree that it's Republican

It's fair and balanced! I stopped talking to her about anything even remotely political because it's all balled up with religion and my dad (who brought her into the Mormon church and turned her into a total wingnut). Too many hidden side doors to an ugly argument, because to her it's really all about my dad (or she thinks it is with me) and she's not done processing the conflict we had after he died.

Wouldn't I just love for her to meet someone like you! Unfortunately, she only hangs out with other Mormon wingnuts and my brother, who also gave up talking politics with her.

[Initech]

82. No, the key is to continue pointing out their ignorance.

You know that theory that if you repeat the same lie over and over it eventually becomes a fact? Fox News viewers have used that successfully the last 10 years. They exhibit very sheep-like behavior. Calling them out on their ignorance may be the only way to win this battle.

[Cameron27]

79. Your's is one of the most lucid and

well written posts that I've ever read on this subject. It's fascinating and disturbing to know how these people choose to shield themselves from any facts, or opinions that might force them to question why they believe certain things.

It's like perpetually anesthetizing a tooth to keep it from causing any pain. I always wonder what causes a person to do live that way, and the only thing that I can think of is a fear of something.....but what?

Bewildering.

[The Backlash Cometh]

81. Fine praise, indeed.

It's taken me a long time to evolve to the point where this event could even take place. It helped that they were people that I knew before this whole mess began, and that I haven't seen them during the Republican hey-days of the last six years.

Your post sums up all the feelings I had during the evening. Describes it perfectly. I'm besides myself. I don't know how we'll reach them without poking holes through Fox New's facade.

[ElboRuum]

83. You have the patience of a saint...

...or I have the manners of a goat... a well-intentioned goat, perhaps... but a goat, nonetheless.

If I were present in this room I'm sure the word "bonehead" would have ultimately gone from being thought to being mumbled... to spoken out loud.

[krkaufman]

85. "manager"? All presidents are managers, just none quite this incompetent.

Yikes. The state of our country, budget and debt was easily foreseen by many who simply looked at Bush's record at running his own companies -- most decisively into the ground.

Sounds like a fairly deluded bunch, and has given me an idea for a new diet... The Fox News Diet. You have to have dinner with Fox News loyalists, and your only nutrition comes from what food you don't spit-out from laughing at their every delusional talking point.

[krkaufman]

86. Well, you could point them to the PIPA study showing Fox News viewers ...

... to be the more poorly-informed out there. (link)

Or you could pick any one of their core beliefs and demonstrate its truthiness. (Bush as the great 9/11 leader, who wasn't heard from for days after the attack; Bush not being poll-minded, though every scoop says they're all about politics and zero about policy; Iraq as a good idea, by having them check with the good citizens of Bali, Madrid, London, Baghdad, Kirkuk, Mosul, Basra, etc., or just direct them to the NIE study saying the Iraq war is creating insurgents and terrorists faster that the rate at which we're killing suspected insurgents and terrorists.)

Above all, assuming their strategic premise for the Iraq war, ask them about the basic morality of the "fight them over there, so we don't have to fight them here" strategy. Is it moral to lay waste to an innocent country and its citizens because we needed a neutral battleground to which the terrorists could be drawn? Do they actually think there will be no repercussions from the instability created? From the 655,000 civilians killed?

[upi402]

87. their self-righteous hatred paints them into a corner

When the prime symptom of wisdom is an open mind, righties are stuck on stupid by negation.