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SoCalifer Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-22-06 01:35 PM
Original message
VIDEO: Freedom to Fascism (full version)
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-22-06 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. kick to find later
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-22-06 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. watching - there is NO LAW requiring we pay income tax???
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-22-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Geez...
I don't know how movies like this get made.

Yes there are many laws requiring you to pay income tax.

"The federal government of the United States (as well as some state and municipal governments) imposes an income tax on the taxable income of individuals, corporations, trusts, decedents' estates and certain bankruptcy estates. The first Federal income tax was imposed (under Article I, section 8, clause 1 of the U.S. Constitution) during the Civil War, then again in the 1890s, and again after the 16th Amendment was ratified in 1913. Current income taxes are imposed under these constitutional provisions and various sections of Subtitle A of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended, including 26 U.S.C. § 1 (imposing income tax on the taxable income of individuals, estates and trusts) and 26 U.S.C. § 11 (imposing income tax on the taxable income of corporations)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States

Not that I enjoy citing the IRS, but this is a pretty good 60 page refutation of the various tax protestor arguments.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/friv_tax.pdf

America may be sliding to fascism, but it is not because the income tax is illegal.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-22-06 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. thank you
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SoCalifer Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-22-06 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Sir Jeffrey
Edited on Sun Oct-22-06 02:34 PM by SoCalifer
The codes you site are correct. BUT they are not laws requiring an individual to pay taxes on their WAGES. "Income" in the tax codes are defined not as an individual's wages, but rather as "Corporate Gains".

That's why movies like this get made. And that's why about a dozen U.S. Supreme Court cases has ruled that the Sixteenth Amendment does NOT authorize any new taxation authority that wasn't already there.

This video shows these things being confirmed by professors, lawyers and IRS agents. It also shows a former IRS commissioner getting owned because he can't answer the question. What law requires a citizen to pay taxes on his or her's "wages".

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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-22-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. SoCalifer...
This is pretty muddy reading, but proving the law takes a lot of space and legalese.

Before we get to the meat, I will say that our system of law is based upon the courts refining the intent and purpose of the laws. As such when you read a statute, regulation, or case law you may be amazed at how the legal principle derived from the law will, to a non-legal mind, appear stretched and tortured at times.

From the earlier IRS link I posted:

"For federal income tax purposes, “gross income” means all
income from whatever source derived and includes compensation for
services. I.R.C. § 61. Any income, from whatever source, is presumed to
be income under section 61, unless the taxpayer can establish that it is
specifically exempted or excluded. In Reese v. United States, 24 F.3d
228, 231 (Fed. Cir. 1994), the court stated, “an abiding principle of federal
tax law is that, absent an enumerated exception, gross income means all
income from whatever source derived.”

This answers your basic question and even provides a cite to relevant case law.

"The Sixteenth Amendment provides that Congress shall have the power to
lay and collect taxes on income, from whatever source derived, without
apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any
census or enumeration. U.S. Const. amend. XVI. Furthermore, the U.S.
Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the income tax laws enacted
subsequent to ratification of the Sixteenth Amendment in Brushaber v.
Union Pacific R.R., 240 U.S. 1 (1916). Since that time, the courts have
consistently upheld the constitutionality of the federal income tax."

This directly contradicts your statement (presumably derived from the movie) about subsequent taxation. They go on to list several cases along with the relevant holding as to this particular issue.

"Relevant Case Law:
Commissioner v. Glenshaw Glass Co., 348 U.S. 426, 429-30 (1955) –
referring to the statute’s words “income derived from any source
whatever,” the Supreme Court stated, “this language was used by
Congress to exert in this field ‘the full measure of its taxing power.’ . . .
And the Court has given a liberal construction to this broad phraseology in
recognition of the intention of Congress to tax all gains except those
specifically exempted.”

Commissioner v. Kowalski, 434 U.S. 77 (1977) – the Supreme Court
found that payments are considered income where the payments are
undeniably accessions to wealth, clearly realized, and over which a
taxpayer has complete dominion.

Cheek v. United States, 498 U.S. 192 (1991) – the Supreme Court
reversed and remanded Cheek’s conviction of willfully failing to file federal
income tax returns and willfully attempting to evade income taxes solely
on the basis of erroneous jury instructions. The Court noted, however,
that Cheek’s argument, that he should be acquitted because he believed
in good faith that the income tax law is unconstitutional, “is unsound, not
because Cheek’s constitutional arguments are not objectively reasonable
or frivolous, which they surely are, but because the willfulness in criminal cases] does not support such a position.” Id.
(emphasis added). On remand, Cheek was convicted on all counts and
sentenced to jail for a year and a day. Cheek v. United States, 3 F.3d
1057 (7th Cir. 1993), cert. denied, 510 U.S. 1112 (1994).

United States v. Becker, 965 F.2d 383, 389 (7th Cir. 1992) – the court
found defendant’s contention that wages are not income to be “ridiculous.”
United States v. Sloan, 939 F.2d 499, 500 (7th Cir. 1991) – in rejecting
defendant’s argument that the revenue laws of the United States do not
impose a tax on income, the court recognized the “Internal Revenue Code
imposes a tax on all income.”

United States v. Connor, 898 F.2d 942, 943-44 (3d Cir.), cert. denied, 497
U.S. 1029 (1990) – the court stated that “very court which has ever
considered the issue has unequivocally rejected the argument that wages
are not income.”

Lonsdale v. Commissioner, 661 F.2d 71, 72 (5th Cir. 1981) – the court
rejected as “meritless” the taxpayer’s contention that the “exchange of
services for money is a zero-sum transaction . . . .”

Stelly v. Commissioner, 761 F. 2d 1113 (5th Cir. 1985) – the Fifth Circuit
affirmed the Tax Court’s holding against the taxpayer’s argument that
taxing wage and salary income is a violation of the constitution because
compensation for labor is an exchange, not gain. The Fifth Circuit also
fined the taxpayer for bringing a frivolous appeal.

United States v. White, 769 F. 2d 511 (8th Cir. 1985) – the court issued a
permanent injunction to prevent the promotion of the argument that there
is no tax imposed on an exchange of property (labor) in an equal
exchange for property (wages).

United States v. Richards, 723 F.2d 646, 648 (8th Cir. 1983) – the court
upheld conviction and fines imposed for willfully failing to file tax returns,
stating that the taxpayer’s contention that wages and salaries are not
income within the meaning of the Sixteenth Amendment is “totally lacking
in merit.”

United States v. Romero, 640 F.2d 1014, 1016 (9th Cir. 1981) – the court
affirmed Romero’s conviction for willfully failing to file tax returns, finding,
in part, that “he trial judge properly instructed the jury on the meaning of
<‘income’ and ‘person’>. Romero’s proclaimed belief that he was not a
‘person’ and that the wages he earned as a carpenter were not ‘income’ is
fatuous as well as obviously incorrect.”

Abdo v. United States, 234 F. Supp. 2d 553 (M.D. N.C. 2002), aff’d, 2003-
1 U.S.T.C. (CCH) ¶ 50,483 (4th Cir. 2003) – the tax preparer prepared
returns based on the argument that labor is an exchange for wages and
not taxable. The court cited Connor, supra, when finding that the tax
preparer misstated the law.

McCoy v. United States, 88 A.F.T.R.2d (RIA) 7116, 2001 U.S. Dist. LEXIS
18986 (N.D. Tex. Nov. 16, 2001) – the court rejected the taxpayer’s
argument that wages received were not income and described this
position as meritless.

Sumter v. United States, 61 Fed. Cl. 517, 523 (2004) – the court found the
taxpayer’s “claim of right” argument as “devoid of any merit” and that
section 1341 only applies to situations in which the claimant is compelled
to return the taxed item because of a mistaken presumption that the right
held was unrestricted and, thus, the item was previously reported,
erroneously, as taxable income. Section 1341 was inapplicable to Ms.
Sumter, because she had a continuing, unrestricted claim of right to her
salary income and had not been compelled to repay that income in a later
tax year.

Abrams v. Commissioner, 82 T.C. 403, 413 (1984) – the court rejected the
argument that wages are not income, sustained the failure to file penalty,
and awarded damages of $5,000 for pursuing a position that was
“frivolous and groundless . . . and maintained primarily for delay.”

Reading v. Commissioner, 70 T.C. 730 (1978), aff’d, 614 F.2d 159 (8th
Cir. 1980) – the court said the entire amount received from the sale of
one’s services constitutes income within the meaning of the Sixteenth
Amendment.

Cullinane v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 1999-2, 77 T.C.M. (CCH) 1192,
1193 (1999) – noting that “ourts have consistently held that
compensation for services rendered constitutes taxable income and that
taxpayers have no tax basis in their labor,” the court found Cullinane liable
for the failure to file penalty, stating that “ argument that he is not
required to pay tax on compensation for services does not constitute
reasonable cause.”

Wheelis v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 2002-102, 83 T.C.M. (CCH) 1543-
45 (2002) – the court rejected the taxpayer’s frivolous argument that his
wages were not taxable based on his belief that “property (money)
exchanged for property (labor not subject to tax)” is not subject to income
taxation. The court stated that such claims have been “consistently and
thoroughly rejected” by the courts and imposed a penalty against Wheelis
in the amount of $10,000 for making frivolous arguments.

Carskadon v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 2003-237, 86 T.C.M. (CCH)
234, 236 – the court rejected the taxpayer’s frivolous argument that
“wages are not taxable because the Code, which states what is taxable,
does not specifically state that ‘time reimbursement transactions,’ a term
of art coined by , are taxable.” The court imposed a $2,000
penalty against the taxpayers for raising “only frivolous arguments which
can be characterized as tax protester rhetoric.”"

I encourage you to read the rest of the IRS link and check their citations at a local law library if you like.
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SoCalifer Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-22-06 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Thanks for the post
I do recognize most of the case names you've posted. The only thing I can say, except for spending a bunch of time looking for all the Supreme Court cases I have and other information with respect to the 16th amendment, is when you have an hour or so to spare, I encourage you to watch what information the video has to show and the credentials of the many folks in the video.


Again thanks for the post Sir Jeffrey.
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cui bono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-22-06 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Have you watched this film? They show cases where the lower courts didn't
allow Supreme Court rulings into the courtroom thereby allowing the federal judge interpret the laws with complete disgregard for SCOTUS decisions which should have overridden the federal judge's personal bias.

I went to a screening of this in L.A. and the director was there for a Q&A afterwards. I asked if he knew the statistics of how many people went to trial and how many convicted, unfortunately he didn't have an answer. I would really like to know that.

He also encouraged everyone to ask their congressperson to get rid of the Federal Reserve. He said they have to power to do it.
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-22-06 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I tried to watch it a month ago...
because I heard a lot of people on another site raving about it. As soon as I heard the attorney saying there was no law requiring an individual to pay income tax, I turned it off. That simply isn't true. I've seen the laws, cases, and court holdings. I provided the links earlier in this thread.

The US system of taxation is coercive, burdensome, and more regressive than progressive, but it is legal.

I find it hard to accept the arguments from Mr. Russo when he claims things like this. It smacks of disinformation/misinformation.

The question you asked about lower courts not allowing Supreme Court rulings is unanswerable unless I know the case. I will say that lots of lower court judges make stupid choices...it could be as simple as that. Or maybe the judge properly overruled the citation because it cited old/out of date precedent, or was irrelevant to the issue before the court.

Congress could pass a bill eliminating the Fed Reserve, and the President would have to sign it. Getting rid of the Federal Reserve sounds like a good idea on its face, but honestly, what is the alternative? Do you want Dennis Hastert and George Bush controlling the money supply? I'm all open to suggestions.

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cui bono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. How can you know the arguments that say there's no law if you turn them
off before you hear them? I haven't investigated it thoroughly myself, but he presents it as if there is no law. And if it's true that the lower courts aren't allowing SCOTUS decisions in then something is fishy.

As to the Federal Reserve, again it's something I need to read up on.
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. I just showed in this thread that there IS a law...
whether or not people want to deny that is their choice. I don't like to sit and watch something when I know I'm being lied to.

This may help clear up some issues vis a vis the courts. I pulled this off Wiki regarding Irwin Schiff's case:

"The presiding judge in the case allegedly "denied Irwin the ability to prove to a jury that there was no law requiring Americans to file an income tax return. He denied Irwin the right to prove to a jury there was no law...by stating, 'I will not allow the law in my courtroom.'" At 0:48:28 of the film, Mr. Russo introduces Judge Dawson and his statement. Under the U.S. legal system, the general rule (with exceptions) is that neither side in a civil or criminal case is allowed to try to prove to the jury what the law is. For example, in a murder case the defendant is not generally allowed to persuade the jury that there is no law against murder, or to try to interpret the law for the jury. Likewise, the prosecution is not allowed to try to persuade the jury about what the law is, or how it should be interpreted. Disagreements about what the law is are argued by both sides before the judge, who then makes a ruling. Prior to jury deliberations, the judge, and only the judge, instructs the jury on the law. For examples of application of this rule in tax cases, see United States v. Ambort, 2005-2 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 50,453 (10th Cir. 2005); United States v. Bonneau, 970 F.2 929, 92-2 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 50,385 (1st Cir. 1992); United States v. Willie, 91-2 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 50,409 (10th Cir. 1991)."
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cui bono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. But you're using the definition of income to include wages, and somewhere the film showed
that wages weren't considered income since it was a barter. It's not income if you are expending something to attain it.

Also, from SoCalifer's post here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2454332#2454538

What this video doesn't show is that the Sixteenth Amendment wasn't actually ratified. There was this former USMC colonel (forget his name) who spent a few years doing all the document research and found that some of the States that they claim voted yes for the Sixteenth Amendment didn't vote yes. They either voted no or abstained. So not only does this video show that there are a dozen US Supreme Court cases ruling that the Sixteenth Amendment doesn't grant any new taxing powers that wasn't already there. But the Sixteenth Amendment wasn't really ratified in the first place.

And you've used the 16th Amendment to make your case, but if it wasn't ratified or simply ruled that what was already in existence applied and nothing ever did apply then it doesn't mean anything since it adds nothing new.

I have a lot to research on this, but your arguments are the ones that were refuted in the film so I don't buy what you're saying right now. I don't necessarily buy the other side of it either, but the IRS guy certainly couldn't point to a law that said we had to pay it. But I'll still pay my taxes until I delve into the matter further since I certainly know how things can be edited to show a bias. The jury's still out on this one for me.
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Did you read anything I posted earlier?
Wages are considered income under current law. I provided a link and court cases that say this exact thing. I don't know what else I have to do to prove the law.

I used the 16th Amendment to make the case because the 16th Amendment is the basis for the entire income tax structure. I have yet to see anyone in this thread post ONE SINGLE court case that supports the arguments made in this film.

If I have a cite to a specific case, I can go research the holding and do my own analysis.

Can you cite anything that supports Mr. Russo's arguments? Cases? Laws? Documented evidence that the 16th Amendment was never ratified properly? Anything that refutes anything I posted earlier?

Can you cite anything that supports your definition of income (which apparently requires an interpretation of "bartering")?

Hell, give me the names of some of the court cases in this movie and I'll research them. I already dealt with Irwin Schiff's case earlier.
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SoCalifer Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. U.S. Supreme Court
I used the 16th Amendment to make the case because the 16th Amendment is the basis for the entire income tax structure. I have yet to see anyone in this thread post ONE SINGLE court case that supports the arguments made in this film.

------

If someone can provide me with the actual case citation to CURRENT law where the US Supreme Court says that the IRS has no power to tax wages, or where they say that wages are not considered income or a gain, then I'll consider it.


Here's a couple of cases:




U.S. Supreme Court



http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=252&invol=189">Eisner v. Macomber, 252 U.S. 189 (1920)

The Sixteenth Amendment must be construed in connection with the taxing clauses of the original Constitution and the effect attributed to them before the amendment was adopted. In Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co., it was held that taxes upon rents and profits of real estate and upon returns from investments of personal property were in effect direct taxes upon the property from which such income arose, imposed by reason of ownership; and that Congress could not impose such taxes without apportioning them among the states according to population, as required by article 1, 2, cl. 3, and section 9, cl. 4, of the original Constitution.

Afterwards, and evidently in recognition of the limitation upon the taxing power of Congress thus determined, the Sixteenth Amendment was adopted, in words lucidly expressing the object to be accomplished:

    'The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.'

As repeatedly held, this did not extend the taxing power to new subjects, but merely removed the necessity which otherwise might exist for an apportionment among the states of taxes laid on income.




---





Brushaber v. Union Pacific R. CO., 240 U.S. 1 (1916)

"Aside from averments as to citizenship and residence, recitals as to the provisions of the statute, and statements as to the business of the corporation, contained in the first ten paragraphs of the bill, advanced to sustain jurisdiction, the bill alleged twenty-one constitutional objections specified in that number of paragraphs or subdivisions. As all the grounds assert a violation of the Constitution, it follows that, in a wide sense, they all charge a repugnancy of the statute to the 16th Amendment, under the more immediate sanction of which the statute was adopted."

"The various propositions are so intermingled as to cause it to be difficult to classify them. We are of opinion, however, that the confusion is not inherent, but rather arises from the conclusion that the 16th Amendment provides for a hitherto unknown power of taxation; that is, a power to levy an income tax which, although direct, should not be subject to the regulation of apportionment applicable to all other direct taxes. And the far-reaching effect of this erroneous assumption will be made clear by generalizing the many contentions advanced in argument to support it, as follows: (a) The Amendment authorizes only a particular character of direct tax without apportionment, and therefore if a tax is levied under its assumed authority which does not partake of the characteristics exacted by the Amendment, it is outside of the Amendment, and is void as a direct tax in the general constitutional sense because not apportioned. (b) As the Amendment authorizes a tax only upon incomes 'from whatever source derived,' the exclusion from taxation of some income of designated persons and classes is not authorized, and hence the constitutionality of the law must be tested by the general provisions of the Constitution as to taxation, and thus again the tax is void for want of apportionment. (c) As the right to tax 'incomes from whatever source derived' for which the Amendment provides must be considered as exacting intrinsic uniformity, therefore no tax comes under the authority of the Amendment not conforming to such standard, and hence all the provisions of the assailed statute must once more be tested solely under the general and pre-existing provisions of the Constitution, causing the statute again to be void in the absence of apportionment. (d) As the power conferred by the Amendment is new and prospective, the attempt in the statute to make its provisions retroactively apply is void because, so far as the retroactive period is concerned, it is governed by the pre-existing constitutional requirement as to apportionment."

"But it clearly results that the proposition and the contentions under it, if acceded to, would cause one provision of the Constitution to destroy another; that is, they would result in bringing the provisions of the Amendment exempting a direct tax from apportionment into irreconcilable conflict with the general requirement that all direct taxes be apportioned. Moreover, the tax authorized by the Amendment, being direct, would not come under the rule of uniformity applicable under the Constitution to other than direct taxes, and thus it would come to pass that the result of the Amendment would be to authorize a particular direct tax not subject either to apportionment or to the rule of geographical uniformity, thus giving power to impose a different tax in one state or states than was levied in another state or states. This result, instead of simplifying the situation and making clear the limitations on the taxing power, which obviously the Amendment must have been intended to accomplish, would create radical and destructive changes in our constitutional system and multiply confusion......"

".......Nothing could serve to make this clearer than to recall that in the Pollock Case, in so far as the law taxed incomes from other classes of property than real estate and invested personal property, that is, income from 'professions, trades, employments, or vocations', its validity was recognized; indeed, it was expressly declared that no dispute was made upon that subject, and attention was called to the fact that taxes on such income had been sustained as excise taxes in the past. The whole law was, however, declared unconstitutional on the ground that to permit it to thus operate would relieve real estate and invested personal property from taxation and 'would leave the burden of the tax to be borne by professions, trades, employments, or vacations; and in that way what was intended as a tax on capital would remain, in substance, a tax on occupations and labor' -a result which, it was held, could not have been contemplated by Congress."

This is the text of the Amendment:
    'The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.'

It is clear on the face of this text that it does not purport to confer power to levy income taxes in a generic sense,-an authority already possessed and never questioned, -or to limit and distinguish between one kind of income taxes and another, but that the whole purpose of the Amendment was to relieve all income taxes when imposed from apportionment from a consideration of the source whence the income was derived. Indeed, in the light of the history which we have given and of the decision in the Pollock Case, and the ground upon which the ruling in that case was based, there is no escape from the conclusion that the Amendment was drawn for the purpose of doing away for the future with the principle upon which the Pollock Case was decided; that is, of determining whether a tax on income was direct not by a consideration of the burden placed on the taxed income upon which it directly operated, but by taking into view the burden which resulted on the property from which the income was derived, since in express terms the Amendment provides that income taxes, from whatever source the income may be derived, shall not be subject to the regulation of apportionment. From this in substance it indisputably arises, first, that all the contentions which we have previously noticed concerning the assumed limitations to be implied from the language of the Amendment as to the nature and character of the income taxes which it authorizes find no support in the text and are in irreconcilable conflict with the very purpose which the Amendment was adopted to accomplish. Second, that the contention that the Amendment treats a tax on income as a direct tax although it is relieved from apportionment and is necessarily therefore not subject to the rule of uniformity as such rule only applies to taxes which are not direct, thus destroying the two great classifications which have been recognized and enforced from the beginning, is also wholly without foundation since the command of the Amendment that all income taxes shall not be subject to apportionment by a consideration of the sources from which the taxed income may be derived forbids the application to such taxes of the rule applied in the Pollock Case by which alone such taxes were removed from the great class of excises, duties, and imposts subject to the rule of uniformity, and were placed under the other or direct class. This must be unless it can be said that although the Constitution, as a result of the Amendment, in express terms excludes the criterion of source of income, that criterion yet remains for the purpose of destroying the classifications of the Constitution by taking an excise out of the class to which it belongs and transferring it to a class in which it cannot be placed consistently with the requirements of the Constitution. Indeed, from another point of view, the Amendment demonstrates that no such purpose was intended, and on the contrary shows that it was drawn with the object of maintaining the limitations of the Constitution and harmonizing their operation. We say this because it is to be observed that although from the date of the Hylton Case, because of statements made in the opinions in that case, it had come to be accepted that direct taxes in the constitutional sense were confined to taxes levied directly on real estate because of its ownership, the Amendment contains nothing repudiation or challenging the ruling in the Pollock Case that the word 'direct' had a broader significance, since it embraced also taxes levied directly on personal property because of its ownership, and therefore the Amendment at least impliedly makes such wider significance a part of the Constitution,-a condition which clearly demonstrates that the purpose was not to change the existing interpretation except to the extent necessary to accomplish the result intended; that is, the prevention of the resort to the sources from which a taxed income was derived in order to cause a direct tax on the income to be a direct tax on the source itself, and thereby to take an income tax out of the class of excises, duties, and imposts, and place it in the class of direct taxes. We come, then, to ascertain the merits of the many contentions made in the light of the Constitution as it now stands; that is to say, including within its terms the provisions of the 16th Amendment as correctly interpreted. We first dispose of two propositions assailing the validity of the statute on the one hand because of its repugnancy to the Constitution in other respects, and especially because its enactment was not authorized by the 16th Amendment.
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. The two cases you cited...
were not a direct challenge to the constitutionality of the 16th Amendment. They were cases involving reconciling two income tax laws with certain provisions of the Constitution.

Brushaber:

The paragraph immediately following the first paragraph you cite from Brushaber specifically holds that:

"We are of opinion, however, that the confusion is not inherent, but rather arises from the conclusion that the 16th Amendment provides for a hitherto unknown power of taxation; that is, a power to levy an income tax which, although direct, should not be subject to the regulation of apportionment applicable to all other direct taxes."

The rest of the discussion is about the Revenue Act of 1913 and whether it is Constitutional (which it was).

Specifically relating to the 16th Amendment:

"It is clear on the face of this text that it does not purport to confer power to levy income taxes in a generic sense,-an authority already possessed and never questioned, -or to limit and distinguish between one kind of income taxes and another, but that the whole purpose of the Amendment was to relieve all income taxes when imposed from apportionment from a consideration of the source whence the income was derived. Indeed, in the light of the history which we have given and of the decision in the Pollock Case, and the ground upon which the ruling in that case was based, there is no escape from the conclusion that the Amendment was drawn for the purpose of doing away for the future with the principle upon which the Pollock Case was decided; that is, of determining whether a tax on income was direct not by a consideration of the burden placed on the taxed income upon which it directly operated, but by taking into view the burden which resulted on the property from which the income was derived, since in express terms the Amendment provides that income taxes, from whatever source the income may be derived, shall not be subject to the regulation of apportionment."

I pulled this off Wiki:

"Although the court stated that income taxes inherently belong in the category of excise tax (indirect tax), Brushaber is sometimes misunderstood by persons who argue that the case stands for the opposite meaning. Since 1913, however, the Supreme Court of the United States has never ruled that any Federal income tax is anything but an excise tax, not required to be apportioned as a direct tax, but requiring geographic uniformity.

No income tax enacted by the U.S. Congress (either before or after the Sixteenth Amendment) has ever been apportioned among the states by population. All income taxes enacted after the Amendment have been treated as excises (i.e., have been imposed with geographic uniformity, but have not been required to be apportioned).

The Brushaber court stated, "Moreover, in addition, the conclusion reached in the Pollock case did not in any degree involve holding that income taxes generically and necessarily came within the class of direct taxes on property, but, on the contrary, recognized the fact that taxation on income was in its nature an excise entitled to be enforced as such unless and until it was concluded that to enforce it would amount to accomplishing the result which the requirement as to apportionment of direct taxation was adopted to prevent, in which case the duty would arise to disregard form and consider substance alone,..."

Since the income tax may be imposed on income from whatever source and without regard to any apportionment requirement (by virtue of the wording of the 16th Amendment), an income tax cannot be treated as a direct tax (as income taxes on income from property were so treated in the Pollock case). Essentially, all income taxes after the Sixteenth Amendment are again treated as indirect taxes."

You and other tax protestors may disagree with this ruling, and it is your right to do so, but arguing that this case somehow supports your contentions about the illegality of the income tax is simply wrong.

Eisner:

The Eisner case dealt with a very specific set of circumstances...whether an income tax imposed on a specific type of dividend by the Revenue Act of 1916 was unconstitutional:

"This case presents the question whether, by virtue of the Sixteenth Amendment, Congress has the power to tax, as income of the stockholder and without apportionment, a stock dividend made lawfully and in good faith against profits accumulated by the corporation since March 1, 1913.

It arises under the Revenue Act of September 8, 1916 (39 Stat. 756 et seq., c. 463 ), which, in our opinion ( notwithstanding a contention of the government that will be <252 U.S. 189, 200> noticed), plainly evinces the purpose of Congress to tax stock dividends as income."

And the quote you mentioned is misleading because it is confusing:

"As repeatedly held, this (the 16th Amendment) did not extend the taxing power to new subjects, but merely removed the necessity which otherwise might exist for an apportionment among the states of taxes laid on income."

Of course it didn't extend the taxing power to new subjects. The 16th Amendment was passed specifically to overcome the holding in the Pollack case i.e. the apportionment requirement for income taxes (which was affirmed in Brushaber)...after which the Congress could begin imposing income taxes.

Before the 16th Amendment income taxes were considered direct taxes and had to be apportioned. Once the 16th Amendment was passed, income tax laws passed by the Congress (like the Revenue Acts discussed in these cases) were passed and the courts decided from then on that income taxes would be considered indirect taxes.

In either case, did they ever mention that the 16th Amendment was unconstitutional? Did they ever rule that all income taxes were unconstitutional? Of course not.

I appreciate this discussion, but Mr. Russo's contentions have no real basis in US law. It is a position made up of quote-mining early 20th Century cases, misinterpreting the holdings, and ignoring the larger points (like the courts relying upon the 16th Amendment to make their decisions when tax protestors argue the 16th is unconstitutional or was never ratified).

The reason I am arguing against his point of view is that many will see his films and accept at face value the legal arguments made because legalese is difficult to understand. Someone with what appears to be strong credentials arguing what appears to be a sound legal case against the legality of the income tax is dangerous. I mean, if someone wants to withhold paying their income taxes as a form of protest, like Thoreau, they need to be aware that they really are breaking the law.
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SoCalifer Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. U.S. Supreme Court trumps all your lower court references.
Edited on Tue Oct-24-06 04:39 PM by SoCalifer
To be honest, I normally don't bother when I recognize people who seem to be more interested in wining an argument than sincerely looking at the facts. One fact here is: not even an author of the tax code itself, Sheldon Cohen, a former IRS commissioner will deny that the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled on numerous occasions that the Sixteenth Amendment conferred no new taxation laws. He, now an attorney himself, won't even try to do what you're doing, he just tries to say that the U.S. Supreme Court's decisions are not current with respect to today's tax code and lower court cases - even though nothing's changed and the Supreme Court has never overturned it's decisions. But you wouldn't know that because you won't watch the video, you won't read the law correctly and it seems that you only wish to believe the construct you have in your head and nothing anybody shows you or tells you will change that. No offense intended.

Now if you can show me where the Supreme Court has overturned its multiple (only a few listed here) rulings that the Sixteenth Amendment conferred no new power of taxation. Or show me where the Constitution has been amended to remove the requirement of apportionment on the category of direct taxes (The Supreme Court has ruled that the Sixteenth Amendment does NOT do that). Show me either then I'll agree that we are not being subjected to unlawful taxation.








U.S. Supreme Court



Stanton v. Baltic Mining CO, 240 U.S. 103 (1916)
    "The contention is that as the tax here imposed is not on the net product, but in a sense somewhat equivalent to a tax on the gross product of the working of the mine by the corporation, therefore the tax is not within the purview of the 16th Amendment, and consequently it must be treated as a direct tax on property because of its ownership, and as such void for want of apportionment. But, aside from the obvious error of the proposition, intrinsically considered, it manifestly disregards the fact that by the previous ruling it was settled that the provisions of the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation, but simply prohibited the previous complete and plenary power of income taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning from being taken out of the category of indirect taxation to which it inherently belonged, and being placed in the category of direct taxation subject to apportionment by a consideration of the sources from which the income was derived,-that is, by testing the tax not by what it was, a tax on income, but by a mistaken theory deduced from the origin or source of the income taxed."



Eisner v. Macomber, 252 U.S. 189 (1920)
    "Afterwards, and evidently in recognition of the limitation upon the taxing power of Congress thus determined, the Sixteenth Amendment was adopted, in words lucidly expressing the object to be accomplished:"

      'The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.'

    "As repeatedly held, this did not extend the taxing power to new subjects, but merely removed the necessity which otherwise might exist for an apportionment among the states of taxes laid on income."





Income


The whole argument boils down to what is the definition of income (which the tax code does NOT define), even in the video an author of the tax code and former IRS commissioner admits that the tax code doesn't define income. He just says that the courts have (the lower courts that is). And the lower courts are in conflict with the Supreme Court on this issue.

This matter is important because its a matter of "gains" not wages and salaries. The reason is simple. Because if a person's labor is his "property" and not a commodity or an article of commerce 15 USC 17 then he's entitled to exchange his property (without gains) for other property -- in this case his labor for money. And since employment is a contract for the exchange of one property for another; there is no gain occurring. And if there are no gains then there is no income, its just a direct even exchange of property.

Now if you did gain from the exchange, then the gains would be taxable. But since the value of your property (your labor) was decided in your employment contract, there are no gains occurring. There's just a straight even exchange.


Butchers' Union CO. v. Crescent City CO., 111 U.S. 746 (1884)
    "It has been well said that 'the property which every man has in his own labor, as it is the original foundation of all other property, so it is the most sacred and inviolable."



Coppage v. State of Kansas, 236 U.S. 1 (1915)
    "The principle is fundamental and vital. Included in the right of personal liberty and the right of private property--partaking of the nature of each--is the right to make contracts for the acquisition of property. Chief among such contracts is that of personal employment, by which labor and other services are exchanged for money or other forms of property."



Congress recognizes at Section 64 of the Internal Revenue Code that "ordinary income" is a gain from the sale or exchange of property.
(26 USC 64).


Internal Revenue Code Sections 1001, 1011 and 1012 provide the method Congress has set forth for determining the "gain" derived from the sale of property.
(26 USC 1001, 26 USC 1011 and 26 USC 1012).

Section 1001 (a) states that: "The 'gain' from the sale or other disposition of property shall be the 'excess' of the amount realized there from over the adjusted basis provided in section 1011 for determining gain....."

Section 1001 (b) states that: "The amount realized from the sale or other disposition of property shall be the sum of any money received plus the fair market value of the property (other than money) received."

Section 1011 states that: "The adjusted basis for determining the 'gain' or loss from the sale or other disposition of property, whenever acquired, shall be the basis (determined under section 1012..), adjusted as provided in section 1016."

Section 1012 states that: "The basis of property shall be the cost of such property"

When an employer pays the employee the amount agreed upon by their contract, there is no excess amount realized over the adjusted basis, and thus no gain under Section 1001 of the Revenue Code.

If one has no gain, one would have no income in a constitutional sense.

If one has no income, one would have no "gross income".

In the absence of "gross income," one would not be required to make a return under Section 6012 of the Internal Revenue Code.
(26 USC 6012).

The "taxable income" upon which the income tax is imposed in Section 1 of the Internal Revenue Code is defined at Section 63 of the Internal Revenue Code.
(26 USC 1 and 26 USC 63).

The term "taxable income" is defined differently for those who itemize deductions and those who don't itemize deductions.

For those who do itemize deduction, the term "taxable income" means "gross income" minus the deductions allowed by Chapter 1 of the Internal Revenue Code, other than the standard deduction.

For those who do not itemize deductions, the term "taxable income" means "adjusted gross income" minus the standard deduction and the deduction or personal exemptions provided in section 151 of the Internal Revenue Code.

So in short: First, we have the U.S. Supreme Court ruling numerous times that the Sixteenth Amendment conferred no new powers of taxation (which would place it in conflict with another part of the Constitution if it did) and; Secondly, we have the internal revenue code itself not showing a requirement to have to pay taxes on one's wages and salaries, but rather, on income where they do not define what income is. But where the U.S. Supreme Court does define income as gains or increase arising from corporate activities.

Doyle v. Mitchell Bros. CO., 247 U.S. 179 (1918)
    "Whatever difficulty there may be about a precise and scientific definition of 'income,' it imports, as used here, something entirely distinct from principal or capital either as a subject of taxation or as a measure of the tax; conveying rather the idea of gain or increase arising from corporate activities. As was said in Stratton's Independence v. Howbert, 'Income may be defined as the gain derived from capital, from labor, or from both combined.'"



So there you have it. No gain, then no income. No income, then no gross income. No gross income, then no taxable income.

-And-

"by the previous ruling it was settled that the provisions of the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation" -- (U.S. Supreme Court)

"As repeatedly held, this (the 16th Amendment) did not extend the taxing power to new subjects" -- (U.S. Supreme Court)


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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. To be honest with you...
I think you have very little (if any) legal training and your assumption about my motives is laughable. I am not currently an attorney but I do have nearly five years of legal training and will most likely be returning to law school to finish my JD next August.

If you are an attorney, I would suspect that you have never decided to bring this issue before a court because if you did you'd be laughed out of court, likely sanctioned for filing a frivolous suit, and perhaps disbarred. Assuming you are not an attorney, I would suggest that if tax law interests you, you take a few legal studies classes at your local college and then you would very quickly see the points I am making. If you can, go for your JD because you have the passion for law (like me) and you seem to enjoy arguing (like me).

"Now if you can show me where the Supreme Court has overturned its multiple (only a few listed here) rulings that the Sixteenth Amendment conferred no new power of taxation."

As far as your cases, I've already pointed out why your "16th Amendment did not grant any new powers of taxation" argument is based upon the failure to grasp a very simple legal concept i.e. that the 16th Amendment was designed to clear the way (so to speak) for the legislature to impose an income tax without apportionment. That is why you can cite that sentence about 1000 times and you won't grasp the point I am making. The Congress always had the power to tax. There was no new power to tax in the 16th. It was the elimination of the apportionment requirement that cleared the way for income taxes. Again, this is a very simple point of law that you must grasp if this conversation is to continue.

"Or show me where the Constitution has been amended to remove the requirement of apportionment on the category of direct taxes (The Supreme Court has ruled that the Sixteenth Amendment does NOT do that)."

The 16th Amendment removed the apportionment requirement. This is from Brushaber, a case YOU cited:

"It is clear on the face of this text that it does not purport to confer power to levy income taxes in a generic sense,-an authority already possessed and never questioned, -or to limit and distinguish between one kind of income taxes and another, but that the whole purpose of the Amendment was to relieve all income taxes when imposed from apportionment from a consideration of the source whence the income was derived."

The Stanton case you cited was controlled by Brushaber, and I already dealt with Brushaber in the last post and briefly again here. You reposted Eisner, again because you did not understand the point I made.

Your statement:

"The whole argument boils down to what is the definition of income (which the tax code does NOT define), even in the video an author of the tax code and former IRS commissioner admits that the tax code doesn't define income. He just says that the courts have (the lower courts that is). And the lower courts are in conflict with the Supreme Court on this issue."

Again, this reflects an inability to grasp another very simple concept. The Internal Revenue Code, a law passed by the Congress, does in fact define income under section 61:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode26/usc_sec_26_00000061----000-.html

"Gross income defined

(a) General definition
Except as otherwise provided in this subtitle, gross income means all income from whatever source derived, including (but not limited to) the following items:
(1) Compensation for services, including fees, commissions, fringe benefits, and similar items;
(2) Gross income derived from business;
(3) Gains derived from dealings in property;
(4) Interest;
(5) Rents;
(6) Royalties;
(7) Dividends;
(8) Alimony and separate maintenance payments;
(9) Annuities;
(10) Income from life insurance and endowment contracts;
(11) Pensions;
(12) Income from discharge of indebtedness;
(13) Distributive share of partnership gross income;
(14) Income in respect of a decedent; and
(15) Income from an interest in an estate or trust."

This comes from the very same code you linked to in your post. Why didn't you bother to mention it in your post?

I suspect you didn't include it because you were unaware this definition existed. You were told that "the tax code doesn't define income" and you bought it because you wanted to believe it. I don't have that luxury, and if you decide to stop paying your income taxes you will end up in deep financial trouble.

If you cannot grasp introductory legal research issues like those I have tried to discuss in this thread, then you are beyond being able to be reasoned with and have moved into a very dangerous area ideologically. My only hope is that anyone else following this discussion or watching this "documentary" will do so with a critical mind and not buy into everything discussed without first thinking it through.

And if you decide to stop paying your taxes, my advice would be to get a better lawyer than Irwin Schiff (a hero in the movie) who is currently serving time in federal prison.

Mr. Russo fancies himself a Libertarian (although he did run for Governor of Nevada as a Republican). If you won't believe the arguments of a fellow leftie (I'm assuming you're on the left) how about former Libertarian presidential candidate (and recently deceased) Harry Browne?

http://www.harrybrowne.org/articles/InternalRevenueCode.htm

"Internal Revenue regulations governing practices of the IRS agents are created by the IRS itself. But the Internal Revenue Code is different; it is a law of the federal government — passed by Congress, like any other federal law. Anyone who says that there is no law requiring the payment of income tax is ignoring the fact that the Internal Revenue Code is a law passed by Congress.

It is also incorrect to believe that the income tax code applies only to selected people or to selected geographical areas of the United States — or that income isn't defined in federal law. All these topics are covered in the Internal Revenue Code, a federal law passed by Congress and amended nearly every year.

You might decide to refuse to pay tax as a protest; that's your decision. But if you refuse to file or pay because you believe there is no law requiring you to do so, you're sadly mistaken."

I don't know what else I can do here. Best of luck and I hope you don't end up in prison.
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SoCalifer Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. "Gross Income" NOT "Income"
"The whole argument boils down to what is the definition of income (which the tax code does NOT define), even in the video an author of the tax code and former IRS commissioner admits that the tax code doesn't define income. He just says that the courts have (the lower courts that is). And the lower courts are in conflict with the Supreme Court on this issue."

Again, this reflects an inability to grasp another very simple concept. The Internal Revenue Code, a law passed by the Congress, does in fact define income under section 61:

You seem to not understand what you are reading my friend. And yes I am a Democrat.

In reading the above quote. Its clear to me that you are not reading correctly what is posted. NOTE: that you are posting "Gross Income defined" NOT "Income defined". I explain what this means in my above post.

Also, you are clearly not reading the Brushaber case correctly either my friend. If you read the Brushaber correctly you'll then understand why in a later U.S. Supreme Court case (the Eisner case also posted above), it says:
    "As repeatedly held, this (the 16th Amendment) did NOT extend the taxing power to new subjects".


Now, about the Brushaber case:

In 1913, Congress passed the following income tax act:
    A. Subdivision 1. That there shall be levied, assessed, collected and paid annually upon the entire net income arising or accruing from all sources in the preceding calendar year to every citizen of the United States, whether residing at home or abroad, and to every person residing in the United States, though not a citizen thereof, a tax of 1 per centum . . . and a like tax shall be assessed, levied, collected, and paid annually upon the entire net income from all property owned and of every business, trade, or profession carried on in the United States by persons residing elsewhere.

    (See 38 Stat. 166 (Oct. 3, 1913)


Mr. Brushaber challenged this income tax as being unconstitutional.

In the Brushaber decision, the United States Supreme Court held that the tax on income was an excise tax. (See Brushaber v. Union Pacific R.R. Co., 240 U.S. 1 (1915); and Stanton v. Baltic Mining Co., 240 U.S. 103 (1916)

In the Brushaber decision, the United States Supreme Court held that the purpose of the 16th Amendment was to prevent the income tax from being taken out of the class of excise taxes where it rightly belonged. (Again see Brushaber v. Union Pacific R.R. Co., 240 U.S. 1 (1915).

In the Brushaber decision, the United States Supreme Court discarded the notion that a direct tax could be relieved from apportionment, because to so hold would destroy the two great classifications of taxes. (Again see Brushaber v. Union Pacific R.R. Co., 240 U.S. 1 (1915).


In the Brushaber case, the Supreme Court also says:
    (a) The (16th) Amendment authorizes only a particular character of direct tax without apportionment, and therefore if a tax is levied under its assumed authority which does not partake of the characteristics exacted by the Amendment, it is outside of the Amendment, and is void as a direct tax in the general constitutional sense because not apportioned.

    (b) As the Amendment authorizes a tax only upon incomes 'from whatever source derived,' the exclusion from taxation of some income of designated persons and classes is not authorized, and hence the constitutionality of the law must be tested by the general provisions of the Constitution (As in Article I) as to taxation, and thus again the tax is void for want of apportionment.

    (c) As the right to tax 'incomes from whatever source derived' for which the (16th)Amendment provides must be considered as exacting intrinsic uniformity, therefore no tax comes under the authority of the Amendment not conforming to such standard, and hence all the provisions of the assailed statute must once more be tested solely under the general and pre-existing provisions of the Constitution(Again as in Article I), causing the statute again to be void in the absence of apportionment.

    (d) As the power conferred by the Amendment is new and prospective, the attempt in the statute to make its provisions retroactively apply is void because, so far as the retroactive period is concerned, it is governed by the pre-existing constitutional requirement as to apportionment.




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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. You've got to be joking...
"Gross income" is the definition of income pursuant to the filing process. Why bother defining "income" abstractly in the tax code if it has no bearing on the filing process?

If you do not see the need for the tax code to define "income" pursuant to the filing process, then you are willfully blind and it is pointless to continue.

Likewise, your insistence upon citing Brushaber is laughable. The holding in Brushaber is the exact opposite of what you claim.

In all seriousness though, free legal advice from one DU-er to another (or anyone else reading this): whoever you picked up this argument from is lying to you, and they're probably selling something too. Please do not act upon your interpretation of the income tax laws of the US and stop paying income tax. You will go to prison for tax evasion.

I have no money to gain from making you or anyone else think I'm right, unlike Mr. Russo and his movie or Mr. Schiff and his books.


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SoCalifer Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Likewise
If you do not see the need for the tax code to define "income" pursuant to the filing process, then you are willfully blind and it is pointless to continue.

Then you're also saying that a former IRS commissioner and author of the tax code itself is willfully blind. Because on film he even admits that the Internal Revenue Code doesn't define "income". What the hell does he know, he only wrote the book. :sarcasm:

Look if you do not wish to accept the numerous rulings by the Supreme Court. That's alright with me. But I myself am not going to turn a blind eye to the Supreme Court, numerous IRS agents, tax lawyers, professors and to the Constitution itself.

Also, you can continue to believe that the Brushaber case isn't saying what I posted. I posted enough of it to show that you are incorrect. Also, you conspicuously seem to avoid commenting on later Supreme Court cases such as: Stanton v. Baltic Mining: "by the previous ruling it was settled that the provisions of the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation" -and- Eisner v. Macomber: "As repeatedly held, this did not extend the taxing power to new subjects"

As one of the IRS Agents in the video points out. There are currently some sixty million people who are not paying income taxes. Of the very few I am aware of who have been brought to court, only one was put into jail and that was only after being denied his rights in court to show his evidence.

Now if you are correct and I am not. Then why won't the IRS go on public record answering these people's questions. If you have such an easy time at it, then why do they run away all the time when confronted with these questions?
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SoCalifer Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. I would also like to address this again.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode26/usc_sec...

"Gross income defined

(a) General definition
Except as otherwise provided in this subtitle, gross income means all income from whatever source derived, including (but not limited to) the following items:
(1) Compensation for services, including fees, commissions, fringe benefits, and similar items;
(2) Gross income derived from business;
(3) Gains derived from dealings in property;
(4) Interest;
(5) Rents;
(6) Royalties;
(7) Dividends;
(8) Alimony and separate maintenance payments;
(9) Annuities;
(10) Income from life insurance and endowment contracts;
(11) Pensions;
(12) Income from discharge of indebtedness;
(13) Distributive share of partnership gross income;
(14) Income in respect of a decedent; and
(15) Income from an interest in an estate or trust."

This comes from the very same code you linked to in your post. Why didn't you bother to mention it in your post?

As I pointed out above, because its defining "gross income" not "income" and I included in my post some Supreme Court cases that define what income is. I also posted how its important to know the difference between income and gross income.

Now, take a look at the above list you provided. Lets take a look at number one "Compensation for services". Labor is defined by the Supreme Court as property. When an employer pays you for your labor, he's not paying you a fee. A fee is what's paid out to a business, for example, a parking fee. A commission is what's paid as a percentage of profit or gain from a sale of property. Fringe benefits are excesses paid out. No where in category one do you see listed wages, salaries or property.

However, in category three we do see it lists "property". And the Supreme Court has defined labor as property. But as you can also see from the list its only listing the "gains" derived from dealings in property.

And as I pointed out in an earlier post:
    Congress recognizes at Section 64 of the Internal Revenue Code that "ordinary income" is a gain from the sale or exchange of property.
    (26 USC 64).

    Section 1001 (a) states that: "The gain from the sale or other disposition of property shall be the excess of the amount realized there from over the adjusted basis provided in section 1011 for determining gain....."

    Section 1001 (b) states that: "The amount realized from the sale or other disposition of property shall be the sum of any money received plus the fair market value of the property (other than money) received."

    Section 1011 states that: "The adjusted basis for determining the gain or loss from the sale or other disposition of property, whenever acquired, shall be the basis (determined under section 1012..), adjusted as provided in section 1016."

    Section 1012 states that: "The basis of property shall be the cost of such property"

    When an employer pays the employee the amount agreed upon by their contract, there is no excess amount realized over the adjusted basis, and thus no gain under Section 1001 of the Revenue Code.

    If one has no gain, one would have no income in a constitutional sense.

    If one has no income, one would have no "gross income".

    In the absence of "gross income," one would not be required to make a return under Section 6012 of the Internal Revenue Code.
    (26 USC 6012).

    The "taxable income" upon which the income tax is imposed in Section 1 of the Internal Revenue Code is defined at Section 63 of the Internal Revenue Code.
    (26 USC 1 and 26 USC 63).

    The term "taxable income" is defined differently for those who itemize deductions and those who don't itemize deductions.

    For those who do itemize deduction, the term "taxable income" means "gross income" minus the deductions allowed by Chapter 1 of the Internal Revenue Code, other than the standard deduction.

    For those who do not itemize deductions, the term "taxable income" means "adjusted gross income" minus the standard deduction and the deduction or personal exemptions provided in section 151 of the Internal Revenue Code.


So again: Labor = property. Income = "gains" from property. Income does not = an even exchange of property.

Taxable income is derived from "gross income". Gross income is derived from "income". And again, income is derived from "gains" not even exchange. And even exchange is what we have with respect to wages and salaries because there is no excess paid out.


Lastly, I would like to point out that Irwin Schiff was denied his right in court to site the Supreme Court. The judge in his case said that he will not allow the law in his court. But this is not about Schiff or Democrats or Republicans or Libertarians. Its about truth. And the truth is not on your side in this case. I am sorry, but it isn't. Of course that doesn't mean that we are not going to be "forced" into excepting an unconstitutional law. But then again, what's new about that?
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Apparently...
the tax protestors "win" arguments online by arguing ridiculous and universally rejected rulings until the person they are arguing with gives up trying to explain simple legalisms to them.

Apparently, you are not an attorney and have no legal training whatsoever. I have tried to explain these things to you many times because whoever is feeding you this bs is lying to you about some very dangerous things. If you decide to stop paying your income taxes, you will be breaking longstanding federal laws and you will most likely go to federal prison.

If you do go to prison, remember that a while back some guy you didn't even know from Kentucky spent several hours online trying to stop you from breaking federal laws, okay?

Cheers

:)
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
21. Some argue Supreme Court's decisions outweigh the IRS code
(not an unreasonable argument, imo)
According to this film, the SC has ruled that the 16th amendment applies to income from "gains and profits" not from wages. The position of the IRS is that this ruling is unenforceable.

The film does discuss this things in-depth.

Another interesting fact is that all the govt income from taxation is spend on paying off the interest over the debt that the govt has to the IRS. In other words, we're never going to pay off this debt, rather the debt will keep increasing as long as the govt keeps borrowing from the IRS.
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. rman...
the US Supreme Court rulings DO overrule the IRS, or any other law for that matter, under the doctrine of judicial review. This is an irrelevant point though since the Supreme Court actually says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what Mr. Russo and his "experts" claim.

I provided a link to the relevant law and even posted a list of cases that affirm the laws and interpret them. I even provided links to current case law where the courts heard arguments similar to those Mr. Russo makes and they lose every single time on the merits.

If this film proposes that wages are not considered a "gain" then this film is either deliberately misleading the viewer or is unintentionally misleading the viewer on this issue. Again, the laws say the exact opposite of what Mr. Russo claims.

Read through the list of other cases in my earlier post for more information and the cites to relevant codes and case law.

If someone can provide me with the actual case citation to CURRENT law where the US Supreme Court says that the IRS has no power to tax wages, or where they say that wages are not considered income or a gain, then I'll consider it.

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Holly_Hobby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. How do you explain this case?
IRS Loses A Big One

Memphis Pilot Acquitted of Tax Evasion
Charged With Filing "False" W-4s

On Friday, a Memphis federal jury acquitted FedEx pilot Vernice Kuglin of six counts of felony Tax Evasion and Willful Failure to File tax returns.

Ms. Kuglin's attorneys, Tax Honesty Movement barristers Larry Becraft and Robert G. Bernhoft, told reporters that Kuglin was indicted seven months ago and had refused to plead the case out for a lesser sentence. During her testimony Kuglin testified that since 1995, she had sent numerous letters to the IRS requesting that they inform her of what law required her to pay the Individual Income Tax. To this day, she has not received an answer.

At 1:30 Friday afternoon, the jury returned not guilty verdicts on all counts. After the jury had been excused the U.S. Attorney reportedly demanded that the Judge order the defendant to file her forms, pay her taxes and obey the law. The Judge reportedly replied "Sir, I don't work for the IRS."

The case is: U.S. District Court, Western District of Tennessee (Memphis) # 03-CR-20111, USA v. Kuglin.

http://www.givemeliberty.org/mailroom/2003-08-09.htm





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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. She was acquitted of criminal charges...
and she entered into a settlement with the IRS in 2004.

From the IRS link I cited earlier:

"Kuglin’s case, discussed above, did not prove to be the
exception. Despite her acquittal of criminal charges, on September 12,
2004, Kuglin entered a settlement with the IRS in the Tax Court in which
she agreed to pay more than half a million dollars in back taxes and
penalties. Kuglin v. Commissioner, Docket No. 21743-03; see 2004 TNT
177-6 (Sept. 13, 2004)."

From your link:

"Kuglin wrote the Internal Revenue Service twice in 1995 with questions but said she didn't get a response.

Murphy, in closing arguments on Thursday, said Kuglin did have an opportunity to discuss her situation with the IRS, to learn what she owed and what documents she was required to file "and she didn't."

Defense attorney Larry Becraft of Huntsville, Ala., said Kuglin decided mandatory payment of income taxes "did not apply to her.""

Tax evasion is a CRIME. Crimes require proving the crucial element of INTENT. The attorney for the prosecution probably dropped the ball during the trial and did not prove that Kuglin *intended* to defraud the IRS. She fooled them into thinking that she really didn't know she had to pay income taxes and the prosecution didn't overcome it.

Notice they still got her for the back taxes in the civil trial i.e. no need to prove criminal intent.

Besides, claiming that income tax laws "did not apply to her" doesn't mean that the entire income tax is a fraud. If I get put on trial for murder, and I did not do it, I argue that the murder law does not apply to me. I don't argue that there is no murder law.
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slaveplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. x can never
In other words, we're never going to pay off this debt, rather the debt will keep increasing as long as the govt keeps borrowing from the IRS.

pay off (x+y) if x was the only thing ever created and received.
x=principal
y=interest

This is the debt bubble ponzi scheme, and right now it is at an all time high.

usury enslavement

For those that think there won't be an eventual crash, please name 1
case in history that a fiat debt money system didn't fail due to shelf life. (when so many notes are printed that it eventually bottoms out at 0% from where it started)
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. We could not pay it back even if there were no interest on the loan.
It is different than borrowing money to buy a car or a house, because we don't need this borrowed money just once, we need it continuously.

The money that's borrowed is used to keep the economy going; not just once, not just for a year or a lifetime, we need to keep the economy going all the time. So if all of the borrowed money would be payed back then we wouldn't have any more money to keep the economy going. After all the only money we have is the money that we borrowed.

The interest on the loan just compounds the problem; we need to borrow ever more money in order to pay back what we borrowed plus the interest over what we borrowed - so our debt to the central bank just keeps increasing for ever and ever - until the system is changed.
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NobleCynic Donating Member (991 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #28
36. That is a dishonest argument
Excluding of course cases still pending (our current monetary system), there hasn't been a monetary system of any kind in history that hasn't failed. Fiat debt or not. That is a function of no government being permament from a historical perspective.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-25-06 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #36
52. The Colonial Scrip seemed to be working ok
Edited on Wed Oct-25-06 01:57 AM by rman
Colonial Scrip was paper money issued by the colonies in the revolution/pre-revolution era. This money was not backed by gold or silver and therefore the Colonies could control its purchasing power. It was banned by English Parliament in the Currency Act.

"We issue it in proper proportion to the demands of trade and industry to make the products pass easily from the producers to the consumers. In this manner, creating for ourselves our own paper money, we control its purchasing power, and we have no interest to pay no one" Benjamin Franklin


After the Revolutionary War had started, Benjamin Franklin believed it was the act of abolishing Colonial Scrip that was a heavy contributor to revolution. "The Colonies would gladly have borne the little tax on tea and other matters had it not been the poverty caused by the bad influence of the English bankers on the Parliament, which has caused in the Colonies hatred of England and the Revolutionary War." - Benjamin Franklin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_Scrip

--

And regardless of any historic perspective, the fact remains that this borrowing and paying interest and borrowing more to pay off the loans is a proposition without end, a debt-trap for the workers and a gold mine for the financial elites.
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SoCalifer Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-22-06 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Technically do we have to pay taxes on our wages? Nope
Edited on Sun Oct-22-06 02:42 PM by SoCalifer
And there are many members around the country who belong to the group you'll see talked about in this video who haven't paid taxes on their wages for many, many years now. A few have been brought to court. All but one or two that I am aware of have been acquitted.

This is an argument I've debated on other forums for several years. This video does an outstanding job of showing you that the IRS and the Federal Reserve is nothing but scam hatched by money elites at a vacation getaway called jekyll island off the cost of Georgia.

The Federal Reserve Act is nothing but an example of indentured servitude and the IRS was created at the time of the Federal Reserve Act solely as the tool of this scam.

What this video doesn't show is that the Sixteenth Amendment wasn't actually ratified. There was this former USMC colonel (forget his name) who spent a few years doing all the document research and found that some of the States that they claim voted yes for the Sixteenth Amendment didn't vote yes. They either voted no or abstained. So not only does this video show that there are a dozen US Supreme Court cases ruling that the Sixteenth Amendment doesn't grant any new taxing powers that wasn't already there. But the Sixteenth Amendment wasn't really ratified in the first place.

Another thing that this video doesn't point out is: The 1040 form that we are are so familiar with isn't for U.S. citizens. Its for non-citizens working in the U.S. or U.S. trust territories.

This hidden illegal tax system that they have worked out for the purposes of the Federal Reserve system is the reason why we'll NEVER get this country out of debt. It is impossible to pay your way out of debt by borrowing money to pay your debt. That's the bases of this scam they set up. Its no different than you taking out a loan on your visa card and then when the bill comes in the mail, you take that visa card to the ATM machine and use it to borrow money to pay that bill. That's exactly the way this works.

There's another good video out that you can buy off the net called "Money Masters". It does a great job at chronicling the history of the Federal Reserve and the history of central banks.



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Keepontruking Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
40. WOW
I have a lot to learn and research on this topic...Thank you
so much!!!!  Circus Girl
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-22-06 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
7. Thanks SoCalifer** If this had received the distibutorship like
Edited on Sun Oct-22-06 02:33 PM by shance
Farenheit 911, we'd have another blockbuster on our hands.
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SoCalifer Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-22-06 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. You're very welcome shance
It is a very well done video. It has lots of good information in it. I totally recommend people watch this video.

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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-22-06 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
11. Excellent and a Must See! (nt)
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Jeroen Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-22-06 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
12. Thanks. (K&R/NT)
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-22-06 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. Watching it now. Holy Shi-ite!
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Cobalt Violet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-22-06 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
16. K & R.
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toymachines Donating Member (782 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
17. why would this video not work?
I have used google video on this computer before, anyone able to tell me why it says the "video is not available for veiwing at this moment". STrange
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Rainscents Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 02:30 AM
Response to Original message
19. Yup, we live in corporate and police state...
They decide everything. We need to take back our country!
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
22. kicking and recommending-- awesome video....
This just blew me away. Watch the whole thing-- it's almost two hours long, but don't skip the end. Watch the call to resistance at the end-- it is very stirring.
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NobleCynic Donating Member (991 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
24. On his best day, on his brightest day, Russo is still an idiot
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 04:02 PM by NobleCynic
Seriously people, you can't buy this nonsense. Russo was an idiot when he ran for office in Nevada, and he's still an idiot.

Occam's Razor anybody?

Edited for spelling
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. Ad hominem
"You're making a silly argument..." said the former IRS comissioner, as he refused to answer simple questions like: Doesn't Title 26 have to be in compliance with the Supreme Court decision, that the 16th Amendment did not provide for a new taxing power?

Occam's Razor? ... Right here:


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NobleCynic Donating Member (991 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Occam's Razor would state he is wrong because:
Edited on Tue Oct-24-06 10:13 AM by NobleCynic
1st, Which is more likely? A grand cross-administration near century long conspiracy within our government to wrest control of the world from the American public that would by necessity involve thousands of people of vastly different backgrounds and political affiliations, or this guy is just seeking to avoid paying his taxes?

2nd, IF the income tax was illegal it would be fixed in approximately 10 minutes on the floor of Congress. Does anyone seriously believe there would be any political fallout for Congress taking the one extra step and making it legal? Which is more likely? That it is already legal, or that Congress is too afraid of the public to make it so? Come on now. They've taken away habeas corpus, do you think they're really afraid of instituting the income tax legally?

3rd, which is more likely? That the courts have refused outright to deal with the legality of the issue across all circuits, jurisdictions, and political backgrounds because they know the government would collapse like a stack of cards, or that the legality of the issue has been so thoroughly decided in common law already that anyone who protests on said grounds is displaying a truly offensive level of ignorance about the common law system and simply wasting the court's time. He refuses to deal with the question because while the Supreme Court may have said that AT THE TIME, the common law has changed since then because of new court rulings. And obviously, anyone making said argument does not understand that common law changes with time. Precedent only takes precedence when it is the most recent take on the issue and hasn't been overruled since.

While I grant you that the income tax may have been an attempt to exert more control over the public, its legality is not in question. Whatsoever.

Edited for spelling
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. The legality of 'income tax' IS in question, right here right now.
"1st, Which is more likely? A grand cross-administration near century long conspiracy within our government to wrest control of the world from the American public that would by necessity involve thousands of people of vastly different backgrounds and political affiliations, or this guy is just seeking to avoid paying his taxes?" - False Dilemma.

"2nd, IF the income tax was illegal it would be fixed in approximately 10 minutes on the floor of Congress. Does anyone seriously believe there would be any political fallout for Congress taking the one extra step and making it legal? Which is more likely? That it is already legal, or that Congress is too afraid of the public to make it so? Come on now. They've taken away habeas corpus, do you think they're really afraid of instituting the income tax legally?" - Straw Man and Red Herring.

"3rd, which is more likely? That the courts have refused outright to deal with the legality of the issue across all circuits, jurisdictions, and political backgrounds because they know the government would collapse like a stack of cards, or that the legality of the issue has been so thoroughly decided in common law already that anyone who protests on said grounds is displaying a truly offensive level of ignorance about the common law system and simply wasting the court's time. He refuses to deal with the question because while the Supreme Court may have said that AT THE TIME, the common law has changed since then because of new court rulings. And obviously, anyone making said argument does not understand that common law changes with time. Precedent only takes precedence when it is the most recent take on the issue and hasn't been overruled since." - Straw Man, Genetic Fallacy, Hasty Generalization, Appeal to Ridicule.

If I wasn't in so much pain from dental surgery I would continue here, but alas I cannot write much at this time. x)



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NobleCynic Donating Member (991 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. For the sake of argument
What is your proposed alternative to the income tax? If it is illegal, which I am not going to concede but for the sake of argument, what should be done to fund the federal government from here on? What sort of tax structure do you propose that would meet your standards?

Lastly, as to the constitutionality of the income tax.

Regardless of what the Constitution may actually say, in a common law system, if Congress, by not changing the law or Constitution, and the Courts, by interpretation, both agree on the constitutionality of something, regardless of any actual wording within the original document, that is what it now legally says or means. I'm not saying it is right or wrong. I'm saying that is how "constitutional" is defined.

Not understanding that if Congress and the Supreme Court say it is constitutional makes it so demonstrates a complete lack of understanding regarding the entire issue.

What you should be asking is whether or not income tax is right. Not whether or not it is legal. Because it is. Congress says so. The Supreme Court says so. Therefore it is. Period.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-25-06 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #44
50. "Congress says so. The Supreme Court says so. Therefore it is. Period."
Prove it. Where does the Supreme Court say "income Tax" is constitutional and therefore legal?

Show me the beef. I am willing to learn.

"Not understanding that if Congress and the Supreme Court say it is constitutional makes it so demonstrates a complete lack of understanding regarding the entire issue." - logical fallacy.

This is getting tedious. Either show the specific SCOTUS ruling or give up the debate.



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NobleCynic Donating Member (991 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-25-06 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. Very well, here you go
Edited on Wed Oct-25-06 01:43 AM by NobleCynic
With a nod to Sir Jeffery
There is an extensive list of relevant case law presented here:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/friv_tax.pdf

But to save you the time, open up your copy of the Constitution and read the 16th Amendment. It reads

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

Now if that isn't enough let me quote from the SCOTUS ruling in Brushaber v. Union Pac.
R.R.
, 240 U.S. 1, 12-19 (1916).

"That the authority conferred upon Congress by 8 of article 1 'to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises' is exhaustive and embraces every conceivable power of taxation has never been questioned, or, if it has, has been so often authoritatively declared as to render it necessary only to state the doctrine. And it has also never <240 U.S. 1, 13> been questioned from the foundation, without stopping presently to determine under which of the separate headings the power was properly to be classed, that there was authority given, as the part was included in the whole, to lay and collect income taxes."

The implication here being that income taxes were constitutional even before the 16th Amendment. If you wish to read the case in full you can find a copy online here:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=240&page=1

You have your specific Supreme Court ruling.

Edited for syntax
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SoCalifer Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-25-06 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. Here you go
Edited on Wed Oct-25-06 02:51 AM by SoCalifer
The implication here being that income taxes were constitutional even before the 16th Amendment.

Sigh, Can you name anybody who ever claimed that the government didn't have a constitutional right before the 16th Amendment to levy taxes on wages and salaries? I know I never made that claim, and I don't recall anybody else here making that claim.

Do you know what apportioned and direct taxes mean? They are taxes directly against your labor/property. But the Constitution states that they have to be apportioned among the several States. Something some people falsely believe the 16th Amendment changed. But the Supreme Court IN SEVERAL rulings ruled that the 16th Amendment didn't.

I find it rather telling that both you and Sir Jeffery conspicuously avoid commenting on the "later" Supreme Court cases I also posted above. But we'll go ahead and stay with the Brushaber case since both you and Sir Jeffery seem to believe that it makes your point.

I too encourage people to read the Brushaber case. Because both you and Sir Jeffery don't realize what it says. Your statement above makes that clear. Your statement tells me that you're not aware of the two different classes of taxation (direct and excise) listed in Article 1 Sections 2 and 8 of the Constitution or you wouldn't have posted what you just did about the Brushaber case.

You're correct though that in the Brushaber case the Supreme Court is ruling that the powers of taxation found in Article 1 are still current. That's why they discarded the notion that a direct tax could be relieved from apportionment (from the 16th Amendment), because to do so would destroy the two great classifications. And because of Article 1, a reason why the Supreme Court says that the 16th Amendment gave no new powers of taxation is because, as the Supreme Court ruled, would make two parts of the Constitution in conflict with each other.

    U.S. Constitution Article 1:

    Section 2: Representatives and "direct Taxes" shall be "apportioned" among the several States.

    Section 8: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.






Also, do you have any idea what the Brushaber case is saying here:?
    (a) The (16th) Amendment authorizes only a particular character of direct tax without apportionment, and therefore if a tax is levied under its assumed authority which does not partake of the characteristics exacted by the Amendment, it is outside of the Amendment, and is void as a direct tax in the general constitutional sense because not apportioned.

    (b) As the Amendment authorizes a tax only upon incomes 'from whatever source derived,' the exclusion from taxation of some income of designated persons and classes is not authorized, and hence the constitutionality of the law must be tested by the general provisions of the Constitution (As in Article I) as to taxation, and thus again the tax is void for want of apportionment.

    (c) As the right to tax 'incomes from whatever source derived' for which the (16th) Amendment provides must be considered as exacting intrinsic uniformity, therefore no tax comes under the authority of the Amendment not conforming to such standard, and hence all the provisions of the assailed statute must once more be tested solely under the general and pre-existing provisions of the Constitution (Again as in Article I), causing the statute again to be void in the absence of apportionment.

    (d) As the power conferred by the Amendment is new and prospective, the attempt in the statute to make its provisions retroactively apply is void because, so far as the retroactive period is concerned, it is governed by the pre-existing constitutional requirement as to apportionment.


Now care to comment on the other Supreme Court cases I cited above: Stanton v. Baltic Mining CO, 240 U.S. 103 (1916) and Eisner v. Macomber, 252 U.S. 189 (1920) that come AFTER the Brushaber case?

And these are only two of others.

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NobleCynic Donating Member (991 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-25-06 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. First off
Your interpretation of the Brushaber case is as erroneous as it gets. The parts you copied and pasted were from the Supreme Court's quoting of the plantiff's argument. The Court then goes on to disagree with each contention one by one. I strongly suggest you reread your case law.

By your interpretation of the Constitution, wherein Article 1 trumps Amendment XXVI, Prohibition would still be in effect because the Amendment prohibiting Alcohol came before the one reprealing it. The 16th Amendment was designed specifically to exempt income taxes from the restrictions placed in Article 1. It is the most recent Amendment on the issue, therefore it trumps Article 1 on the Constitution. If you reread Brushaber, you would see that is exactly the contention the Supreme Court is making.

Your interpretation of Stanton v. Baltic Mining CO, 240 U.S. 103 (1916) is equally flawed. What the Supreme Court is doing is listing the arguments before it, which is probably what you read, and then disagreeing with them.

Your reading of EISNER v. MACOMBER, 252 U.S. 189 (1920) is also out of context. The only thing the Supreme Court decided in that case was that dividends are not income and cannot be taxed thusly.

Lastly, if you're looking for relevance in case law in terms of time, go to the more recent rulings. How about

United States v. Collins, 920 F.2d 619, 629 (10th Cir. 1990)

"Dickstein's argument that the sixteenth amendment does not authorize a direct, non-apportioned tax on United States citizens similarly is devoid of any arguable basis in law. Indeed, the Ninth Circuit recently noted "the patent absurdity and frivolity of such a proposition." In re Becraft, 885 F.2d 547, 548 (9th Cir. 1989). For seventy-five years, the Supreme Court has recognized that the sixteenth amendment authorizes a direct nonapportioned tax upon United States citizens throughout the nation, not just in federal enclaves, see Brushaber v. Union Pac. R.R., 240 U.S. 1, 12-19, 36 S.Ct. 236, 239-42, 60 L.Ed. 493 (1916); efforts to argue otherwise have been sanctioned as frivolous, see, e.g., Becraft, 885 F.2d at 549 (Fed.R.App.P. 38 sanctions for raising frivolous sixteenth amendment argument in petition for rehearing); Lovell v. United States, 755 F.2d 517, 519-20 (7th Cir. 1984) (Fed.R.App.P. 38 sanctions imposed on pro se litigants raising frivolous sixteenth amendment contentions)."


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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-25-06 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #51
54. "The implication here being that income taxes were constitutional even before the 16th Amendment."
Incorrect.

Brushaber v. Union Pac. cannot retroactively apply because it is governed by the pre-existing constitutional requirement as to apportionment.

Hint: look at the subsequent cases Stanton v. Baltic Mining CO, 240 U.S. 103 (1916) and Eisner v. Macomber, 252 U.S. 189 (1920).


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NobleCynic Donating Member (991 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-25-06 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. You only questioned the legality of income taxes
Edited on Wed Oct-25-06 12:20 PM by NobleCynic
You were not referencing the issue of apportionment whatsoever. The 16th Amendment does relieve the government from the apportionment requirement, and that is also dealt with in Brushaber.

Stanton v. Baltic Mining CO, 240 U.S. 103 (1916) concurs with Brushaber in every regard. Check your reading of it please.

Eisner v. Macomber, 252 U.S. 189 (1920) deals only with the issue of whether or dividends are income or simply a transfer of property of equal value between forms of holding (value in the form of a share of the company assets versus extracted value in the form of the dividend)
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SoCalifer Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Fix?
IF the income tax was illegal it would be fixed in approximately 10 minutes on the floor of Congress.

With all due respect my Democrat brother. You mean fix like as in fixing the Constitution shredding Patriot Act? Or spying on citizens without a warrant or probable cause? Or like legislating torture in violation of international treaty? Or like the elimination of habeas corpus?

:shrug:
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SoCalifer Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
26. The FED
"Congress could pass a bill eliminating the Fed Reserve, and the President would have to sign it. Getting rid of the Federal Reserve sounds like a good idea on its face, but honestly, what is the alternative? Do you want Dennis Hastert and George Bush controlling the money supply? I'm all open to suggestions."


There are two videos posted below on this subject.

This first video is 42 min's long and does a good job at explaining the Federal Reserve system and its negative effects on our economy. It is based on the book "The Case Against The Fed" by economist Murray N. Rothbard dean of the Austrian School of economics.

The truth about the Federal Reserve System




This second video is outstanding. This video might be 3½ hrs long -But- it does an outstanding job explaining the Federal Reserve system and why we should get rid of it and what to replace it with. It also does an outstanding job at chronicling the history of central banking systems and how they negatively effect economies. I really encourage downloading this video and viewing it when you have the time.

The two links below are direct downloads and can be right clicked and saved as.

The Money Masters (Part 1)

The Money Masters (Part 2)
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markiegreg Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
42. I saw The Money Masters
when it was released in the 90's. Great video and necessary knowledge. I pulled some quotes from it and added a few more that relate to Russo's movie:


"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and the corporations which grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." -- Thomas Jefferson

"I sincerely believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a money aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs." -- Thomas Jefferson

"History records that the Money Changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance." -- James Madison

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. Corporations have been enthroned, an era of corruption will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people, until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the republic destoyed." --Abraham Lincoln

"The real rulers in Washington are invisible, and exercise power from behind the scenes." --Felix Frankfurter, U.S. Supreme Court Justice

"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world - no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -- Woodrow Wilson

"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it." -- Woodrow Wilson

"These international bankers and rockerfeller-standard oil interest control the majority of newspapers and the columns of these newspapers to club into submission or drive out of public office officials who refuse to do the bidding of the powerful corrupt cliques which compose the invisible government." - Theordore Roosevelt 1919

"The warning of Theodore Roosevelt has much timeliness today, to the real menace of our republic is this invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy length over city, state, and nation.... It seizes in its long and powerful tentacles our executive officers, our legislative bodies, our schools, our courts, our newspapers, and every agency created for the public protection.... To depart from mere generalizations, let me say that at the head of this octopus are the Rockerfeller-Standard Oil interest and a small group of powerful banking houses generally referred to as the international bankes. The little coterie of powerful international bankers virtually run the United States government for their own selfish purposes. They practically control both parties, write political platforms, make catspaws of party leaders, use the leading men of private organizations, and resort to every device to place in nomination for high public office only such candidates as will be amenable to the dictates of corrupt big business" - John Hylan mayor of New York: March 36 1922

"The one aim of these financiers is world control by the creation of inextinguishable debts." -- Henry Ford

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." --Henry Ford

"I believe that if the people of this nation fully understood what Congress has done to them over the last 49 years, they would move on Washington; they would not wait for an election....It adds up to a preconceived plan to destroy the economic and social independence of the United States!" --George W. Malone, U.S. Senator (Nevada), speaking before Congress in 1957.



"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our selection between economy and liberty or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts as that we must be taxed in our meat in our drink, in our necessities and comforts, in our labors and in our amusements, for our callings and our creeds...our people.. must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses; and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live.. We have not time to think, no means of calling the mis-managers to account, but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow suffers. Our landholders, too...retaining indeed the title and stewardship of estates called theirs, but held really in trust for the treasury, must...be contented with penury, obscurity and exile.. private fortunes are destroyed by public as well as by private extravagance.

This is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of society is reduced to mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering... And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in it's train wretchedness and oppression." -- Thomas Jefferson
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casus belli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
49. Slightly Propgandized, But Chilling and Recommended
Edited on Wed Oct-25-06 12:07 AM by casus belli
I think the tone of the film and the way it is framed will make it subject to being classified as a conspiracy theory gone awry. That aside, the content is chilling if you do even a preliminary investigation into some of the underlying assertions. I think the problem is that most Americans are complacent, and would rather allow themselves to be subjected to tyrrany, rather than taking a stand against an entity with the power of the federal government.

Orwell may have been the Nostradamus of our time.


edit: On a personal note, it's good to see Tony Danza has made a career for himself after the failure of his TV program. :)
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