Is it all about abortion?

[boolean]

Sometimes I think that the only reason the repugs have been so successful at winning elections over the years (aside from election fraud) is because of abortion. There is no question that without the fundy nutjobs, the gop would not be able to even win a simple majority.

The majority of the people are apolitcial, apathetic, non voters. (What was the average turnout again? 50%?) So if you have half the people NOT voting, while the other half has 30% consisting of jesusfreak crazy people, the repukes easily win by using the most divisive issue of all: Abortion. Sure, they also use gay marriage, the ten commandments, God in the classroom, etc. But these issues pale in comparison to abortion.

I've known people who would base their vote SOLELY on abortion. Forget healthcare or the economy or war. It is the right wing's ultimate litmus test and it is the easiest to understand. Do you want to overturn Roe v. Wade? Then you got my vote. Simple as that. You can be a child molester, a drug addict, I don't care. If you're against abortion you get my vote.

Maybe the same can be said about the pro choice side, but I don't think so. I think the pro choice side, since it won, has been largely apathetic about the whole thing. Nobody actually thinks Roe V. Wade will ever be overturned. At least, nobody has thought it for a long time. Yet the fundies only need ONE more supreme court vote, and John Paul Stevens is getting old. The pro choice side has never had anything to FIGHT for, because abortion is currently legal.

I've always in the back of my mind thought that abortion is really the wedge that has allowed the repukes to take their current stranglehold. They have slowly turned the supreme court from mostly liberal to just barely liberal.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw this out there and see what you guys think.

[Warpy]

1. No, it's not just abortion

It's about putting Baptist prayer "back" into the schools, about requiring a daily Pledge of Allegiance of all children, even the resident aliens, about eliminating the barriers between church and state (while keeping churches tax exempt) and generally using government to push a Protestant theocracy, with dissenters punished on earth before they go to hell.

It's a whole package. The USSC decision getting forced prayer out of schools started the rumpus and legalized abortion only made it a little louder.

Somehow those folks are going to have to be slapped silly until they finally acknowledge the rest of us live here, too, and that we all deserve protection under the law, something that can't be attained by any theocracy.

[PassingFair]

2. Yeah, but....

the abortion issue sucked the Catholic vote into the mix.

Strange bedfellows and all that.

[Warpy]

19. Not so fast!

They may have sucked a few true believers in, but the bulk of the Catholic vote is and generally has been Democratic. Catholics tend to be much more liberal than their Protestant brethren and most are smart enough to know a celibate old man in a dress and a fancy hat in Rome doesn't know squat about reproductive issues. They follow their own consciences, and more than half are prochoice.

[PassingFair]

20. They sucked in MANY more than a "FEW"

and they spent MILLIONS on anti gay marriage initiatives here in Michigan and
in other states, as well.

[Warpy]

23. Don't confuse the rank and file with the hierarchy

Remember, something like two thirds use birth control.

[PassingFair]

Two of my best friends...

nearly LEFT their churches over the last election and
the "drift" of the parishioners and the priests.

LOTS of their fellow Catholics voted for *

[hfojvt]

22. IIRC Catholics only went about 51-49% for Kerry

a Catholic that the Archbishops campaigned against because of abortion. Catholics voted for Kennedy about 70-30 or more.

[Warpy]

24. Apples to oranges

It was a very different time and Kerry came across more like Nixon than he did Kennedy, thanks to being packaged as a bland, grey, passionless man.

[dsc]

25. That is goofy

Kennedy got 49% of the total vote and 70% of the Catholic vote a differential of 21%. Conversely, Kerry got 48% of the total vote and 51% of the Catholic vote, a differential of 3%. Put another way he did 19% worse among Catholics while doing only 1% worse over all. Thus he actually did better among non Catholics than Kennedy did.

[Steven_S]

3. Single issue voting.....

Oh yeah, abortion has them coming out of the woodwork, but people that think the Democrats will take their guns away also enter the mix. There are a number of issues that work this way.

If these single issue voters would bother to find out the truth on where we stand on the issues, they would probably vote Democratic more often.

But all too often they just hear what they want to hear; anything that supports their initial contentions.

That's one of the problems, anyway.

[readmoreoften]

12. I agree. I think that of all the things we could "compromise" on

the gun issue has to be the DUMBEST. So we'll compromise on TORTURE and HABEUS CORPUS (which the population doesn't even fucking grasp) but we won't compromise on gun ownership. Of all the things we could compromise on. I can think of plenty of single-issue pro-gun voters. I don't think I've ever met a single-issue ANTI-gun owner.

[electron_blue]

4. no, not just abortion. The majority of Americans have supported

abortion rights throughout the various Republican PResidencies.

[iamjoy]

7. Not The Point

I'm not sure I agree with Boolean, but I get what he is saying.

It doesn't matter if 60% of voting Americans want abortion to remain safe and legal. If the other 40% will not vote for a Pro-Choice candidate, then the Conswervative candidate only needs to capture about 18% of the Pro Choice 60 to win.* So, they appeal on other issues, such as taxes, government regulation, etc and people who support reproductive freedom (or gay rights, or religious freedom) vote for the Right Wing fundamentalist because they want the tax cut. Gay Republicans are perfect examples of this, which is why I don't think it is just abortion, but what the Right Wingers have labeled "moral values."

The problem is, I think most Americans agree with the Democrats on most issues, but are not "make or break" on them. The Republicans have the upper hand because they stand on the side of the issues that voters use as litmus tests - guns, gays, abortion, etc.

* This is not an actual statistic, but used for example only.

[aquart]

5. No.

[lostnfound]

6. It's a huge issue and I know many people who vote

solely based on this one issue.

My neighbor who has been a campaigner for Democrats but who has changed her position because of abortion.

My Catholic coworkers subjected to the same intense brainwashing that I went through in Catholic school (in SIXTH Grade). We were literally taught that it was equivalent to killing millions of adults. And this was in a liberal Catholic school, which taught us to admire the liberation theologians and put a very heavy focus on poverty and the poor. They taught us to be against the death penalty and to have strong questions about war, even to admire peacemakers. But abortion was seen as a great moral scourge for all of society, and the other side of the issue was totally glossed over.

[Leopolds Ghost]

36. I wouldn't call it brainwashing if you genuinely believe

(as many Americans do) that abortion is immoral. It's certainly not something that can be blamed on prejudice (like homophobia). I've heard too often about how "left wing teachers and religious leaders are brain-washing their congregants to support communist regimes."

[HockeyMom]

8. Straw that will break the silent majority's back - Birth Control

Not satisfied with going after abortion, they are now attacking birth control too. Everything from the Pill, Plan B, Condoms, to Sterilization is in their sights.

Abstinence only until marriage and faithfulness in marriage. Where does birth control, never mind abortion, fit into that slogan?

Hello, Taliban USA Style.

[xchrom]

9. it's about the manipulation of the ''virtuous citizen''.

leo strauss identifies this citizen as the best and easiest citizen to manipulate.

their natural fear of modernity and mindless love of their perception of tradition makes them easy to motivate.

you combine an issue like abortion with radical, divisive rhetoric and a desire{in this case women} to impose your will on someone else and you have a winning strategy for a certain group of people.

[Radical Activist]

10. In some places, yes.

They use other religious and cultural issues, but that is their biggest wedge issue. It allows them to get working class and minority votes that they would otherwise have no chance at getting. I have a neighbor who should be a Democrat in every respect but she votes Republican because of abortion alone.

[Little Star]

11. I must live on a different planet.

In all my 60 years I've yet to actually meet in person anyone who was against choice. Thousands of dye hard Catholics, go to Catholic school kinda Catholics, I'm Catholic and I never heard one, that I can recall, who was against choice. Same sex marriage yes, I've met them, but not anti-choice. Maybe it's cause I was born in New Haven, CT (same year as *, sad to say)raised half my life in CT and the rest in MA?????

[boolean]

13. CT and MA? I would say YES

Yeah. That's the reason you haven't encountered any.

Take a stroll through any small town in Texas or Alabama.

[Little Star]

17. Don't fool around.

Right after they stole 2004, I went to Myrtle Beach, SC and I'm telling ya I was nervous. That MA tag on my car and all. I kid you not. I walked through my fear and told myself that people are just people. I am not afraid of tooling around Boston but the south kinda spooked me and I'm white. We are going to Tennessee this coming summer and I'm not sooo scared! I know, what a wimp, but its the truth.

[progressivebydesign]

35. I agree.. I've met like one person who's anti-choice.

Even my most HARD CORE republican relatives are pro-choice. They say "why should i have any say in what someone does with their body?". They're repubs for the tax cuts (they're deluded, really), and gun rights.

[we can do it]

14. I Think This Is True- To A Point. I Know of Several People Who Solely Base

their vote on this - even for dog catcher. Its ridiculous. I saw a bumper sticker this morning that said, "Remember Catholics, Vote Pro-Life".

[alarimer]

15. they keep voting for Republicans

although they never deliver on their promise to outlaw abortion. So those single-issue voters have been duped into voting for people who actually wish them harm, who will send their jobs overseas at the first opportunity, yet are considered the "family values" party. WTF?

[novalib]

16. The Repukes USE Them

The Repukes have NO intention of ever banning abortion.

Instead, they prey on anti-choice people and make them think (perhaps not the right word here, since anti-choices don't really think!) that the Repukes will outlaw abortion.

It keeps them voting for the Repukes!

[boolean]

18. Absolutely untrue

The latest vote on an abortion law was split 5-4, if I recall. Scalia, Roberts, Thomas, and Rehnquist (This was before he died) voted straight line anti-abortion. They don't ban abortion because they CAN'T. They need ONE vote.

Thus, they need a fundy president in office for when one of the liberal judges dies.

[undeterred]

21. "Is he a baby killer? That's all I need to know"

Somebody said this to one of my volunteers who was handing out lit for the Democratic candidate running against Sensenbrenner. She tried to have a conversation with him, but he said, "Don't waste your time".

The country is in crisis, but he only votes on the basis of this one issue, which he isn't even willing to discuss.

[Nikia]

26. Some affluent feminists vote for Democrats on this issue

I know this is antedotal, but I know a few.
WE do know that women vote for Democrats more than men. Abortion might be one of these reasons.

[valerief]

27. They should spell it aBOREtion. How these nutjobs can get so

worked up over a simple medical procedure is beyond me. It's legal. It's necessary. Don't have an abortion if you don't want to have one, Mr. Nutjob (the men are always the loudest and meanest). Get over it, already. Go feed the hungry, you nutjobs.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

28. It Has Definitely Been A Huge Catalyst For Them. You Are Right In The

fact that this issue controls a huge bloc of voters for the republican side, and without it would be far harder for them to bring so many to the polls.

[benEzra]

29. Perhaps in part....

but I don't think it's as big an issue as it's made out to be, I think.

I think you may also underestimate the gun issue as a hyper-wedge in swing states.

If there were as many anti-abortion people who vote the issue as there are gun owners who vote the issue, abortion would be illegal in this country.

[Odin2005]

30. AND gun control, AND gay marrige.

I bet if the urban nanny-statists would just drop the gun issue there would be a big chunck of rural voters that will switch to our side.

[Warren DeMontague]

32. And what's your prescription for the other two, swami?

Let the rural fucking nanny-statists dictate the terms of the rest of our personal, reproductive, medical and sex lives?

BTW, I agree with you, I think gun control is a loss leader. I'm much more interested in securing individual freedoms than I am in taking anyone's guns away. But freedom isn't a one way street- fuck me if I'm gonna dash on out to support Jethro Clampett's right to own an assault weapon at the same time he's busy trying to force the teaching creationism in public schools, demolish the first Amendment, sentence gays to death by stoning, and criminalize the birth control pill.

[Odin2005]

37. Most rural people arn't like that.

Most of us rural folk, at least us rural Minnesotans, arn't fundie wackos.

[Warren DeMontague]

38. Most democrats aren't coming to take away everyone's guns, either.

Gun control certainly isn't a front burner issue for me. But I don't think rural voters can have it both ways- "we need to be libertarian on gun ownership- and at the same time, we have to stop being so vehement about the civil rights of gays and the reproductive rights of women".

Far more sensible, in my mind, to frame them all in a "leave individuals alone" context.

[mmonk]

31. No, brainwashing and greed.

[Warren DeMontague]

33. Most Americans are Pro-Choice. There are far more socially libertarian

minded voters than there are "values voters". This idea that abortion is a loser for us is a LIE- it's a winner.

I was there in DC in April 2004. Me, and 1.2 Million other people- that's the conservative estimate- who came out on a cloudy spring day in the largest peaceful assembly EVER on the mall to stand up for Reproductive Freedom.

Those people were not "amotivational" voters. I flew 3,000 miles from SFO with a whole planeload of 'em. This idea that abortion only brings out the anti-choicers is a crock... like I said, most Americans are pro-choice. And most Americans certainly don't agree with the GOP platform as has been written for the past several decades, with the HLA plank that would -not "could", WOULD- criminalize the birth control pill. (So Geez--- Why aren't we out there screaming that information from the rooftops? Huh?)

The primacy of the "values voter" is another media-fed lie. Far more numerous are the educated, urban and suburban, socially libertarian contingent of voters. What was the lesson of the Terri Schiavo case, that the GOP refused to learn? Unfortunately, our party has been by parts too timid and too easily led by our own control-minded members to do anything better than a piss-poor job of appealing to these folks. Running AWAY from our commitments to reproductive choice, gay rights, and the like is the WORST thing we could do. (And who, precisely, do we think we're going to "win over" by doing so????)

Instead, what we need to do is enunciate a platform which clearly and unequivocally stands behind individual and civil liberties, and the right of citizens to personal self-determination. An end to the drug war, an end to the war on pain patients and management, the right of people to make their own end-of-life decisions, the right of consenting adults to damn well do as they please in the privacy of their own bedrooms, and to get married if they choose even if they're gay- and absolutely the right of people to use birth control and of women to have the final say over their own bodies and reproductive systems.

We need to be MORE clearly in favor of these things, not less. The votes are there.

[progressivebydesign]

34. Nope. It's about money. Always haas been, always will be.

The abortion issue and such, just make them feel righteous and hides their unmitigated greed. It's all about the money.

Unfortunately for most of those people, they never see the money they think will come to them while the republicans are in power. It's a myth. Only the upper upper tier will make money will repubs are in control... but the greed factor plays out to get the votes. A guy in his 60s could give a fuck about abortion... it's all about the dreams of tax cuts.