Democrats don't NEED a plan for Iraq. Just leave the hell hole immediately

[Philosoraptor]

THAT is the plan, and that needs very little explanation. Gradual withdrawal? No. Redeploy the troops? No. Send 100,000 more troops? Fuck no.

I spit in the face of any republican who dares insult me saying I have no plan for Iraq, it is THEY who don't have a fucking plan or clue.

[demnan]

1. Yeah

I'm old enough to remember all the lame excuses Nixon had for staying in Vietnam. In the end it was get the helicopters running and leave in the middle of the night anyway, so what are we waiting for?

[raccoon]

2. The US should do what somebody suggested we do about Vietnam,

just declare a victory and pull out.

[Yupster]

3. Can we get our collaberators out

before we leave though?

Tens of thousands of Iraqis have supported our efforts in the government, the military and the economy.

My prediction is the army melts apart ala the ARVN in 1975, and in a month the government leaders are having their heads sawed off on national TV each night.

We can leave, but can we bring these people with us? I don't want another Killing Fields in my lifetime.

[Philosoraptor]

4. good question.

I doubt we will go to the trouble of saving those we went in to save.

[marions ghost]

5. Americans in general

but especially politicians, have such a hard time cutting their losses and finding the most honorable way out of a mess. In this case the most honorable way out is the most obvious. Just draw down the troops and leave. The Iraqi people do not want us there anymore. We're not doing them any favors. We can provide some support as we leave, but continuing to fight "insurgents" is so stupid. Even our own military is calling it a lost cause.

There is a fundamental problem with flexibility and responsibility in these Rethuglican 'leaders' of ours. They do not know how to make any intelligent positive moves when their steamroller agenda is thwarted. You just have to laugh at the "adjusting and adapting" rhetoric somebody has told them to use. These are people who do not accept even the remote possibility that they may have to adjust--they NEVER adapt to anything and always believe they can get past any obstacle. In this case to use the word 'victory' in Iraq is just plain delusional. The whole world can see it. Our leaders are immoral and insane. They will lead us over a cliff purely out of narcissistic pride and obstinance. Somebody needs to stop them. But obviously we have a weak government that cannot confront the crisis in Iraq. 'Checks and balances' is a cruel joke. We need a much more effective way to deal with this kind of situation in future. Allowing it to continue has damaged us immeasurably, not to mention wreaking more havoc in Iraq.

"Stay the course" -- that BS has gotten us right where we are...well the Rethuglicans broke it and THEY own it. Problem is, they refuse to take responsibility. They'll try to pretend there were forces beyond their control. They'll try to deflect the blame... ANYTHING BUT taking responsibility. I hope the American people won't be buying that. We deserve a higher caliber of leadership. These subhuman losers --these Rethuglicans--owe us DAMAGES. We The People need to work to ensure that for-profit "wars" foisted on us by such idiots cannot happen again--ever.

[KharmaTrain]

6. Do We Really Know What's Happening There?

All the lies and scandals of this regime have oozed out by the hubris of this regime and its enablers. There's 13 billion that went down the rabbit hole. There's never been a serious investigation where this money went or anyone held accountable for this horrendous profiteering. The only way we'll start to see what's going on here will be through months of investigations and hearings (a reason that impeachement at this late date is impractical as all these machinations would take so long that it'd run right into the 2008 elections). We have no real clue as to what's going on inside the Pentagon or CIA or NSA...and we won't until Henry Waxman gets a gavel.

A unilateral withdrawl is asking for chaos and massive carnage...especially if left to this regime's poor planing and execution. Instead we need to see the damage...find the extent of the illness before you come up with the cure. This thing will require restoring a diplomatic face this country lost on 9/11 and the only way we win those friends back is to force this regime to dialogue and then to work behind the scenes to find a true exit strategy using the UN, Arab league and other organizations as our cover.

After a lot of discussion and thought on this issue lately, sadly, we're stuck in this ugly war until booosh is removed and an entirely new administration is put in place. The best we can hope for at this point is the ability for oversight and accountability...but that in itself is a massive improvement over the status quo.

[marions ghost]

8. Can we wait 2 years?

Why do we have a system that has no accountability or ability to change direction until everything is completely fubar? What business would run this way? Why are we 'sadly stuck' with a disastrous course?

(rhetorical questions--I'm just pondering here)

[KharmaTrain]

9. The "Wheels Of Justice"

I'd love to see a rigorous investigation of this regime...not just in Washington but in The Hague. That said, let's look at reality.

The accountability game requires gathering information and evidence that can prove wrong doings have taken place. We're not just going to go in and these documents and witnesses will appear. It will take subpoenas and court challenges and stonewalls and other manuevers that will drag out over months and possibly years. The vast amount of corruption within this regime is sure to take a decade to sort out...remember, this is 6 years under a dark cloak of one-party rule and a purposeful campaign at hiding and deceiving...getting to the real truth will be a slow and painful process.

What we can and should expect and demand should Democrats take control of the House is oversight...the start of the process that puts a brakes to the excesses of this regime and moderates their stances on some issues.

The important thing the Democrats have to do with an election victory is to build on it...not make this a victory by default, but one of strength. This will require things like the 100 hour agenda Pelosi has put forward and passing some positive legislation...putting all one's political capital in things to run on in 2008 that can solidfy any '06 gains and set the stage for further ones in '08.

I know it sucks...but this is where we are. We've been totally locked out of the real power games inside the beltway...the first thing that we'll need to do is catch up and learn how to play and win the game...sad as this may sound...and that takes time.

Cheers...

[marions ghost]

10. I understand what you are saying...

but I guess I still don't understand why we have a system which is so unresponsive to a catastrophic abuse of power. Putting it in simplistic terms, why do we have a system that "goes critical" and nobody can administer life support? We all just have to stand around and watch it happen...we have to gawk at the ship crashing into the bridge when any fool could see it coming. Any fool could see there was time to change course. Yet we are all only allowed to react after the fact. This is so destructive, wastes billions of dollars and costs far too many lives. So we all must "sadly" watch it happen, like passive bystanders. This is psychologically damaging as well as physically.

The system seems archaic and inflexible. It seems not to be working. It's not OK for it to be a "game that Dems must learn to play better." It's not OK for an equal power party to be "locked out of power games." This is not a game, this is a take-over. I don't think this system which can be gamed to this extent benefits us at all. Thus leaving it to a decade of legalistic "clean-up" is just too little, too late IMO. I think too many people accept the suckiness instead of really analyzing the causes and coming up with better solutions.
-------------------

I looked up Pelosi's 100 hour agenda--it sounds good. A start anyway --

From Washington Post:

Day One: Put new rules in place to "break the link between lobbyists and legislation."

Day Two: Enact all the recommendations made by the commission that investigated the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

Time remaining until 100 hours: Raise the minimum wage to $7.25 an hour, maybe in one step. Cut the interest rate on student loans in half. Allow the government to negotiate directly with the pharmaceutical companies for lower drug prices for Medicare patients.

Broaden the types of stem cell research allowed with federal funds _ "I hope with a veto-proof majority," she added in an Associated Press interview Thursday.

All the days after that: "Pay as you go," meaning no increasing the deficit, whether the issue is middle class tax relief, health care or some other priority.

To do that, she said, Bush-era tax cuts would have to be rolled back for those above "a certain level." She mentioned annual incomes of $250,000 or $300,000 a year and higher, and said tax rates for those individuals might revert to those of the Clinton era. Details will have to be worked out, she emphasized.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/06/AR2006100600056.html

[KharmaTrain]

11. Be Glad For Some Deliberation

I understand your frustration...boy do I. However, if we didn't have a deliberative process, imagine what would have happened to Clinton during his inquisition. They probably would have lynched him in '95 for Whitewater. While I'd like to see the world change on a dime, my view is that of looking at a sick patient. A Democratic win on Nov. 7th is like the first doseage of medicine. The results won't be immediate, but hopefully the first action has been taken to cure the illness.

The alternatives aren't very attractive either. Given a parlimentary system where you have constant votes of confidence and coalition shifting, you get a gridlock that prohibits growth. Given one party too much power, we see the excesses such a blank check encourages. The fact Repugnicans became so corrupt in only 12 years speaks volumes of the Democratic stewardship of the House for their nearly 60 years of control.

All we can ask for is a start...there are no easy solutions to problems and with each rock we overturn the bigger problems we'll encounter. Thus best to leave the expectations low and build than to put lofty expectations from the outset and easily be let down.

[marions ghost]

12. Ok yes

well, I'm not suggesting going to the extreme of no deliberative process. I want a deliberative process that works better--a process that wouldn't have allowed the Clinton inquisition to go as far as it did. That was an abuse of the system IMO, not an example of the system working.

I'm not sure of the relative effectiveness of the parliamentary system enough to advocate it, although in the countries in which it exists, it appears to work as well or better than the American bipolar alternative. Sometimes prohibiting growth might be better than letting a cancer like the Rethuglicans grow out of control. I think it's a little too simplistic to say that "the Democratic stewardship of the House" allowed the Repugs to scale the pinnacles of corruption in only 12 years. It's more complex than the Dems willingly gave them a blank check.

We've got to stop this "us vs them" push-pull, yanking the football, going back to zero stuff...if you want to "build", this is not the way to build effectively IMO. I don't have any clear answers, but I see that things are very rotten at the core of govt, and pretending we're going to fix it by following the same patterns or tweaking things a bit is small-picture thinking. We need a serious overhaul. Back to the drawing boards. Skirting around this only sets us liberals, progressives up to be abused again. You can see how this kind of passivity in the face of obvious need for serious reforms always undermines institutions even on a small scale.

Of course taking back Congress is "a start" -- but I think we have to ask "And why are we being forced to settle for "a start?"...how did we get here, and what will it take to create a system that doesn't leave most of its citizens riding on the Hindenburg? I'm talking about how to go beyond black/white, Dem vs Repug, rigidly factional struggles for power. This is not a game--this is now a struggle to the death--for the ideals of Democracy to be actually realized in this country one of these days.

Forgot to say--Some people build high expectations and are happy to get halfway there, rather than wallowing in the same old ditch all the time. It doesn't always lead to a let-down. I think we have had low expectations of our govt for far too long.

[The Anti-Neo Con]

7. I'm with you. n/t