"Leave all the girl-children behind."

[deminks]

White House approves same sex classes

http://www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=5588329&nav=15MV

The White House is giving schools a chance to create same sex classes. Until now, Title 9 prevented most schools from separating the sexes. But the Bush Administration changed the rules Tuesday, as long as the classes are voluntary and parents can choose a similar co-ed class.

A handful of public schools that have tried same sex classes say some students are less distracted by the opposite sex. Supporters also say girls and boys learn differently and are more likely to try non-traditional subjects when they're not competing with the opposite sex.

"Mainly, we're looking at the quality of the education. We want to make sure kids have access to the same resources, that facilities are basically the same, the curriculum basically the same," said Stephanie Monroe, US Department of Education.

[bleedingheart]

1. next they will allow work places to omit women since we are so

"distracting"....

[Debi]

2. Well, we do belong at home taking care of the house and children

:puke:

[Clark2008]

41. We need to take care of the house... the House of Representatives

and the Senate.

You can bet your sweet bippy if a lot of Dem women were up there, there would BE no page scandal.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

4. The precedents suggest otherwise

That hasn't happened here in the UK, where we've always had single sex schools, after all.

[Little Star]

19. Next thing , american females will have to

start wearing burkas' so we don't tempt males and distract them from their studies. :crazy:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

3. I don't see this as a big problem.

Here in the UK, single-sex schools are fairly common - I went to one - and they don't seem to do any harm.

[alarimer]

5. The problem here is that we have a history

where "separate but equal" was not in fact equal. Schools that get federal money should not be allowed to discriminate.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

7. Several differences:

Firstly, there was no decent non-segregated state education available 50 years agon in America, I believe. A move to make *all* schools single-sex might be cause to worry, but a move to allow some to be, so that parents can choose, isn't.

Secondly, blacks and whites are segregateable, but men and women aren't - if I'm white, I can be confident if I choose that all my family and descendents and so on will be too, so I don't have to worry about schools for blacks if I don't want to, but even if I'm male, unless I'm confident that all my children will be sons, I can't let decent girl's education become unavailable without risking it impinging on me personally.

Thirdly, there's no credible reason why blacks and whites might benefit from being taught separately, but there are several arguments which, while not necessarily correct, do at least make a non-absurd argument in favour of single-sex education.

[alarimer]

11. This is the government that brought us "No Child left behind"

And abstinence-only sex ed so I don't trust them one single bit.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

14. Which is fair enough, but...

There's a world of difference between not trusting someone to do good, and trusting them not to do good. Remember that Bush thinks the sky is blue, too - just because he's doing it doesn't ipse facto mean it's bad, just that you need to think about it carefully.

Also, the OP was attacking Bush for doing this, and if one combines that with your argument you end at "Bush is bad, because he's supporting single-sex education, which is bad because Bush is supporting it".

[FlaGranny]

65. Bush has NEVER

supported anything that is good for average folks. I don't expect he will change. Most of us are of the mind that if the Bush administration wants it, it can't be good. That's what experience teaches.

[BlooInBloo]

66. Bullshit. "Separate but equal" was ruled to be INHERENTLY unequal.

[sweetheart]

24. me neither

Most subjects are easier to study without distractions, and if
the social learning of young gender roles interferes with some
subjects, why not let the educators experiment with what works best.

A school uniform can help keep young bodies more modest that hormones
are not distracted, but i can recall entire classes at puberty, entirely
distracted by hormones and what the imaginary partner across the room
was thinking.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

25. In my experience

Children educated at mixed schools tend to have a healthier mental disposition than those from sex-segregated schools. YMMV.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

55. Pass.

I was educated in an all boys school, and my mental disposition is anything but healthy, but in general I haven't seen any evidence to that effect.

[dsc]

6. Boys are having major problems in school

and often cause them too. I don't know how I feel about this to be honest. I have one class that is very close to single gender and another which is about 2 females for each male. Both classes are smoother running than those which are about equally divided between boys and girls. Something has to be done about how bad boys are doing relative to girls. I don't see the harm to voluntary single gender classes provided there are also mixed classes too.

[Greyhound]

49. How so?

I am curious, you said boys are doing badly and I would like to know in what way.

Thanks :hi:

[dsc]

50. They are vastly more likely to be suspended

and vastly less likely to graduate. In some schools the drop out rate among males is so high graduating classes are 2 to 1 female. I teach AFM which is used to be algebra 3. It is the mid level fourth math. In my two classes I have 4 boys and 21 girls on one roster and 7 boys and 17 girls in the other. These aren't unusual ratios for those kinds of classes. Boys, especially minority boys, are in serious trouble in our schools. Entering college classes are now routinely 60/40 in favor of women.

[Greyhound]

54. Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

If what you say is really the norm, maybe we are headed for a country run by women. I think that might be a great thing, God knows the men have certainly sucked at it.

[AngryAmish]

56. And prisons filled to the rim with men

It is bad to leave half of the population behind. Fewer women will get married (women tend not to marry those with less education, less earning potential).

[Greyhound]

61. Well, we've left more than half the population behind for the whole

of recorded history to get here. I'm not sure what the problem with fewer women being married is, but OK.

Women running the show may well result in some measure of sanity being introduced to our legal system, I don't know, but as I've said many times before, they could not possibly do any worse.

[dsc]

62. The problem won't be with those who are running the system

it will lie with the hoards of violent uneducated males we leave in the wake of a failing school system. We already have the senario where more minority males are on probation than in college. We may well end up seeing more minority males on probation than as high school graduates if we don't fix what is wrong. This isn't just a case of where we will get our doctors, lawyers, mechanics, etc. since women can well do those things and everything else. It is a case of just how much do we wish to pay to imprison those who can't or won't be educated by our schools.

[Greyhound]

63. It seems the answer to that is at least partially found in drastically reducing the number

of "offenses" that ruin people's lives and out them on the convict treadmill. Once you're in the system you are in for life. The only alternatives available after a prison sentence are, living the rest of your life as an impoverished prole relegated to being a career dishwasher, or getting better at committing bigger and more dangerous crimes.

Our vindictive short-sighted society has lost even the veneer of "rehabilitation" in the mis-named "Criminal Justice System". It is, and has been for many years, a never-ending cycle of perpetual punishment with no exit, except to commit another crime by lying about having been in imprisoned. I've marveled for years at the unbridled enthusiasm the sheeple have for such idiocy as minimum sentences (placing the non-existent wisdom of the voters over that of judges), no parole requirements, and the three-strikes lunacy. These and the asinine "drug war" have filled our prisons beyond capacity and created a massive under-class and grey-market economy.

There are many other societal factors that contribute to the mess, the uniquely amerikan anti-intellectualism for example, but the "justice" system is, IMO, the best place to start.

Oops, what were we talking about again?

[dsc]

64. certainly the justice system isn't helpful

but no matter what kind of justice system we have if we have hoards of uneducated people who can't support themselves they are likely to commit crimes.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

71. Some thoughts on the college disparity

1. It wasn't a problem back when males greatly outnumbered females in college. Why is a problem now that the situation seems to be reversing?

2. For the most part, women HAVE to get college degrees in order to make good salaries. There are still male-dominated fields (mechanics, construction, and other trades) that pay well and don't require a college degree. Yes, women can do them too but most women enter different fields. The still most common jobs for women are teaching and nursing. Both require college degrees. (And pay less than many of the trades, I might add)

3. There is a disturbing trend of anti-intellectualism and aversion to education that is emerging in our young men. I've noticed it myself for years, as I am in one of those male-dominated occupations. One of my favorite bloggers calls it Dude Nation. Dude Nation values sports, beer, and video games over academic acheivement. Then they are shocked when they aren't getting the good college spots and jobs, as they were promised was their birthright. I don't know if segregating classes is necessarily going to overcome intensive pop culture influence and an entrenched sense of privilege.

[knitter4democracy]

8. I taught in a girls school in Cleveland for my first two years.

They have the strongest science department in the entire area. They have won the state science fair every year for years now and usually send at least one student to the international science fair. That school was stronger in curriculum than any other place I ever taught or even looked at as a teacher. The boys school they most often dealt with, though, had the better reputation for some reason (even though we kicked their butts in science every year).

[MercutioATC]

10. Which school? Mag's?

?

[knitter4democracy]

15. Nope. Beaumont!

Beautiful, beautiful Beaumont. ;)

Mags is great, don't get me wrong. I met some of their teachers at a couple of conferences, and they were great. They were doing some really cool stuff. Beaumont is better, though. ;)

[lukasahero]

17. "The boys school... though, had the better reputation for some reason"

"The boys school they most often dealt with, though, had the better reputation for some reason (even though we kicked their butts in science every year)."

This troubles me when it comes to laws/rules/initiatives like this. The implications behind that sentence need to be considered.

[knitter4democracy]

21. Of course they do.

The bishop was an alumnus of the boys school, and so he visited there all the time and often officiated at Mass. The only time I ever saw him at Beaumont was for the 150th anniversary Mass.

Boys grow into men, and men make more money. The boys schools tend to have more money (not always true) than the girls schools. Women are giving more to their schools, but often it's the husband who controls the money, and he often "forgets" to write a check to his wife's school.

In my opinion, after teaching in an amazing girls school (I wish my daughter could go there) and a decent co-ed school, there always needs to be the co-ed option. Some kids do better in a co-ed situation, and there are many positives to it (including boys learning how to behave at dances--don't get me started on that one). I personally like the idea of a co-ed school with some single sex options, as long as both sexes have the same teacher and same curriculum and same options. If they don't, then it's not equal or fair.

[tammywammy]

9. I think this is a good thing

It's been proven that males & females learn differently.

A few years ago Dallas opened an all girls school. They talked about how girls were improving in math & science when there weren't any boys around.

[MrSlayer]

12. I was an honor student when I went to an all male school.

And in my sophomore year I went to a coed school for half a year and ended up in summer school. Why? I was too busy with the girls in the stairways to care about classes. I went back to the all male school in junior year and resumed my place in the honor society. In my case I was definitely better off without the distraction.

[SmokingJacket]

34. I hope you got a job in an all-male office! nt

[MrSlayer]

38. I work construction.

Which is nearly all male. But I'm also married and get all I need so working with women wouldn't be a distraction now.

[scarletwoman]

13. I'm all for the option being available. Girls and boys ARE different.

I think girls are often stifled by the presence of boys.

sw

[knitter4democracy]

16. They were in my co-ed AP English class.

After two years in a girls school (and AP English there, too), I went to a co-ed school and got the same AP and senior English classes. My girls at the co-ed school were entirely different--all but two would just sit there and refuse to debate or argue with the guys. Drove me nuts.

[NotGivingUp]

18. Girls and GIRLS are different ,and boys and BOYS are different!!

Quit trying to lump everyone together by GENDER. It doesn't work!

[mrreowwr_kittty]

69. Generalities break down at the individual level

These programs scare me because they can be used to prescribe gender-normative behavior to kids. Girls are "supposed" to be quiet and obedient, therefore the rowdy ones will have their spirits corraled into proper submissive behavior. Likewise, boys are "supposed" to be active and rambunctious. The meeker and more sensitive boys will have adults trying to re-train them to be more properly masculine. Indeed, some of the proposed single-sex curricula (designed by social conservatives natch) appears to do just that. They even openly use terms like 'traditional roles' to define expectations.

[SmokingJacket]

23. SOME girls are different from SOME boys.

There's no generalization about ability that stands for ALL of one sex.

[SmokingJacket]

33. I'm a girl, and I had the top scores in my physics class, taught by a man

and filled with boys. Does that mean I have a male brain? Does that mean I would have done better in a class of all girls?

What I think it means is: my gender didn't matter.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

53. Surely all girls are different from all boys, ipse facto?

I agree with the point you're trying to make, though, although I think you can actually go somewhat further than you're doing - there are all sorts of properties that do correlate with gender, so "most" rather than "some" is justifiable.

Also, it's worth noting that the average difference between a girl and a boy is *far* greater than the average difference between a man and a woman.

[SmokingJacket]

32. And putting them in separate classes will prevent the girls from

learning to deal with them in life, as will need to. A better solution is to work at improving classroom atmosphere and *not letting* the boys -- or the girls, for that matter -- dominate. It can be done.

Moreover, I see no way of preventing the "girls' education" from becoming a second-class one, just as the "black schools" of the old south were inevitably worse than the white schools.

[Xithras]

48. "girls are stifled" My wife would agree with you.

My wife is an elementary teacher and, by her own math, spends about three times as much time on the boys as she does with the girls. This isn't discriminatory, but is largely due to the fact that 7 year old boys want to play more than they want to learn math. The girls end up being sidelined while she works with the boys to keep them up with the classes pace.

[JitterbugPerfume]

20. I think the elephant in the room is

(literally)

the worry about equal but seperate

There is a strong bias in the good ole USof A that wimmen folks belong in the kitchen , in certain sectors.

We , at DU , are progressive and liberal souls

Everyone ain't us!!

[SmokingJacket]

22. Separate but equal. Jesus!!!!!

It makes me want to tear out my hair. How long until the boy's math class is more advanced, and a smart girl wants to be in it and she's told, "No sweetie, your brain just doesn't work like a boy's does."

:banghead:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

26. Exactly. This idea just OOZES right-wingness.

Separate but equal.
Women's brains have different capabilities (implying: less).
No buggery! Let's avoid buggery at all costs!

:mad:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

58. Keep a sense of proportion

Remember that in many places single sex schools exist, without leading to any of the dire consequences people on this thread keep predicting.

[Beausoir]

28. You are exactly right. The wacko fundies are behind this.

This is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to separate out the girls and teach them their place.

[lukasahero]

35. The only thing missing from your post is the word "Again"

"How long until the boy's math class is more advanced" again", and a smart girl wants to be in it" again "and she's told" again", "No sweetie, your brain just doesn't work like a boy's does.""

Some of us lived this once already. I'm not that old (43) but a friend of mine had to get legal permission to be the first girl in my high school to be allowed to take Mechanical Drawing. She wanted to be a mechanical engineer but wasn't allowed to take Mech Draw until she forced them to let her in. (FTR - she graduated 4.0 from Rutgers U with a degree in Mechanical Engineering.)

[MissB]

40. When I was in college (Mech Eng)

back in the late 80's, I had *two* professors pull sexist shit on me. One was my CAD instructor who was teaching his very last term ever (he was an old bastard). He tried to give me a lower grade than I'd earned "because clearly the guys had helped me". Um, asshole, it was the other way around.

The other prof told a friend and I that if we didn't make it, it was okay 'cause we were girls. Double asshole, but he was also from the Middle East so I'm guessing some of it was cultural.

[musette_sf]

27. (unpopular opinion follows:)

i went to an all-female high school and i LOVED it.

mind you, it wasn't a Catholic or private school with lots of things like uniforms and iron-fist discipline. it was an extremely progressive magnet school on Manhattan's east side.

progressive same-sex schools can be a really good thing for kiddos.

and i don't trust Bu$hCo to do this the way it should be done.

[SmokingJacket]

29. I think if a private school wants to go that way, fine.

But I don't think public schools ought to. Well, constitutionally I would argue that they *can't* -- but at the same time, they ought not. What happens when the best school in the city, with all the best teachers and the highest test scores, decides to go all girl, say? Kick the boys out. Or a brand new school opens up with top-notch science facilities, and what, no girls allowed?

It ends up being just plain discriminatory, period.

[Katzenjammer]

30. Facilities and curriculum "BASICALLY the same"? uh-huh.

That's what they said about class/race-segregated schools too. It was BS.

"basically the same" -- winner of the Weasel-Words Award for the week. Or perhaps millenium.

[Rosemary2205]

31. Go ahead, give them 8 more years and they'll have us in burkas.

If America votes for these assholes they deserve what they get.

[AngryAmish]

36. The research is that children do better in single sex schools

Don't argue with me. Those are the facts. If such a thing is true then we are doing badly by our children if we refuse to do the best thing for them out of fears about what happened in the past.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

39. Maybe, for some questionable definitions of "better" (aren't they all?)

[Xithras]

45. Yep, as long as it's voluntary I have no problem with it

Both my wife and I teach, and pretty much every study ever done on the subject that has been published in any educational journal we've read agrees with this finding. Especially in the pubescent years, girls and boys retain more knowledge and experience fewer behavioral problems in sex segregated classrooms. For legal reasons I would oppose any attempt to make this division mandatory, but if it were strictly voluntary I wouldn't have a problem with it. If you don't want your kid in a boys only or girls only classroom, don't put them in one. For those parents who actually care about their kids education more than some theoretical rights violation (or some what-if scenario), it should be an option.

People here seem to think that implementing this rolls back equality rights, but it doesn't. Title V still exists, and if a school DID separate the sexes (lets say that everyone opted to segregate) and the administrators began favoring one sex over the other, the parents would still be able to pick up the phone and have the feds investigate it as a rights violation. Failing that, the parents could sue under Title V for discrimination against their child.

Any public school implementing this is going to understand its legal liabilities and act accordingly.

[Nevernose]

67. Only in math and science, at least at the higher grades

I don't know about elementary or middle schools, but I've seen plenty of research that shows that the difference isn't that significant in English/Social Studies at the high school level. We've been looking into having a few test classes in remedial Algebra and remedial science(s) at my high school next year. Until now, it's been planned as a voluntary, paid, after-school credit recovery sort of thing, but it may change with these recent developments.

I believe in science. And if the science shows that seperate gender math classes will help the average girl achieve as well as the average boy, then I'm all for it.

Schools have spent too much time doing what's politically correct or what's popular, and paying too little attention to what actually works.

[DireStrike]

37. This isn't the time for it, but one day we will have to address the issue

Men/boys and Women/girls ARE different. The situation is different than that of segregation where the only differences were cultural.

First we need to determine exactly what the differences between the sexes are, and if they are significant enough to warrant separate environments for education.

The hardest part would be actually implementing it without keeping women down. It would definitely be impossible in today's social climate.

[SmokingJacket]

42. Individual differences DWARF large group differences.

In other words, the difference between the way two random girls think is much bigger than the difference between the average girl and the average boy.

Maybe it's true that boys are more "spatial thinkers" in general, but the fact is plenty of girls are also spatial thinkers, and plenty of boys are not.

Much better to create a curriculum that takes advantage of individual strengths, and works on individual weaknesses, rather than to expect ALL girls to be "girly" and all boys to be "boyish" -- even if in fact many of them are.

It's the same old fucking thing: men should be firefighters, and women should not be, because men are stronger than women. YES men in general are stronger than women, but that doesn't mean ALL of them are. Many women can pass the strength tests required to be a firefighter.

(Why are we so focused on gender differences?? I don't get it. Of course we're different, we have different hormones. But sheesh, I think much more like my husband than like my sister...)

[LostinVA]

43. I have a huge problem with this being done at public school

That's why I had a problem with VMI and the Citadel being male only.

We all know how "Separate but equal" worked out in the past, huh?

[yasmina27]

44. I've taught same sex classes twice

due to a scheduling snafu at our public middle school - one a group of girls and one a group of boys. Both times, I would have to say, were wonderful and far better than I expected. The boys especially were fun to teach. It was so great not to have the gender interaction - at that age in particular the hormones are raging and in mixed group I've seen the most outstanding students turned to mush because of the flirtations of the opposite gender.

As long as it is a CHOICE provided, and the education provided is the same, I don't have a problem with it.

[enki23]

46. i seem to recall research showing that this sort of thing helped the girls

but hurts the boys. academically, i mean.

but all that would depend on them having truly comparable curricula, and instructors, and facilities, and time, and student-teacher ratios, and etc. and etc. and etc.

[SmokingJacket]

47. Shouldn't this go through the courts?

What, the White House can just dictate discrimination, now?

I suppose someone will sue, sooner or later.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. I went to an all girls high school

and got a terrific education. I have no problem with same-sex education, as long as it is a choice and not a mandate.

[ThomCat]

52. Here comes separate but equal.

It won't be a problem everywhere, but in most places there will be funding differences, facilities and equipment differences, teaching assignment differences...

I see bad things coming if this continues.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

57. Precedent suggests you're probably wrong

Single-sex schooling in the places it already exists - here in the UK, for example - hasn't lead to this.

[557188]

59. Moving backwards

Hey lets open separate schools for blacks and whites! I can pull some BS about how Blacks and Whites learn different and have it be just as valid as the junk science that tries to justify how boys and girls learn "different"! Individuals learn different, this wanting to group everyone is so hilarious yet downright scary.

It's pure fucking sexist bullshit. Anyone that supports crap like this isn't a progressive. You can dress up your reasons all you want, but you're still looking at people based on their sex. That's wrong.

I can't believe this is the year 2006...I really can't. We are moving so far backwards. Separate but Equal...RIP!

[Norquist Nemesis]

60. I'm not concerned about this one in theory

Studies show that girls do better particularly in math and science when they are all girl classes.

http://www.nncc.org/Curriculum/sac52_math.science.girls.html

WHY THE GENDER GAP?
Until recently, it was believed that male-female differences in math and science were caused by biology. In other words, girls' and boys' brains are different, so they are better suited for different things. The notion is that boys have superior spatial abilities, making them better suited for certain mathematical manipulations. Girls, on the other hand, are supposed to be better at language and writing. Evidence shows that boys do excel in math, and girls appear to do better in verbal-related skills. But are these differences a result of biology, or do other factors play a role?

More recently, researchers have focused on the influence of the social environment on children's math and science achievement. Very early on, boys are given the chance to tinker with toys or objects (for example, building blocks, Legos, racing cars, and simple machines) that involve many of the principles inherent in math and science. Girls often lack these experiences, so they enter math and science classrooms feeling insecure about their abilities. Girls then begin to believe they cannot do math and science as well as boys. This belief is consistent with a stereotype in our culture that defines math and science as male domains. That is, males are better suited for math and science, and math and science are more useful to males than to females. Also, personality traits attributed to mathematicians and scientists are associated more with males. Mathematicians and scientists are often thought to be competitive, achievement-oriented, and not very social.

Parents, teachers, or school counselors who believe these stereotypes are less likely to encourage or support a young girl's decisions to take math and science in high school and beyond. It has been found that when parents believe boys are better at math than girls, they are willing to let their daughters drop out of math class when the going gets tough. With sons, however, the same parents encourage persistence. In the classroom, teachers, often unaware of their own biases, call on boys more, praise boys more for correct answers, and are more likely to ask boys for help in science and math demonstrations. The message girls get is that they are not as good as boys.

[raising2moredems]

68. Forgive me if this point has already been raised

Next it will be minority children do better in a single ethnic environment. And then we'll turn back the hands of time to the segregated south. IMHO, part of the puke plan is to segregate the schools again.

[Cleita]

70. I went to all girls Catholic high school.

I hope parents and teachers are prepared for sailor mouthed, slovenly daughters. No boys to dress up for? We don't. No boys to impress with our sweet words. We swear like sailors instead.

I don't imagine the boys will be any different. Slovenly and dirty mouthed as well.

[Nikia]

72. I don't have a problem if it is optional

Many parents with money choose single sex education for their children.
Personally, I think that this would probably be most useful at the middle school level. A lot of students who did well in elementary school seem to go downhill at that time and social pressure from the opposite sex is often a factor.