Opti-scan ALERT - Don't use black Bics on the ballot

[Viva_La_Revolution]

Oregon allows any dark color for ballots, pencil or pen (black and blue).

They apparently recently discovered that the black Bics have too much red in the ink, and don't always read in the machine. Tell anyone you know who votes on paper ballots

That's a lost vote, people.

Now I'm wondering about provisionals. If they are counted by opti-scan we could have the same problem

I don't have a link, it was an announcement during the Gov. debate.

[sandnsea]

1. Line opti-scan don't use pencils

Sorry there. We have the opti scan where you draw a line and our instructions do not include pencils. People should check their instructions carefully first, and then if pens are allowed, only use blue.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

6. thanks!

there's so many different freakin systems. It's so hard to keep track

ES&S used in most of Oregon according the the little blurb, they didn't mention yours were different at all. :mad:

[Pastiche423]

13. That's funny

Are not all Oregon ballot instructions the same?

I have mine before me and it states:

You may use

pencil

or pen with

blue ink.

I wonder what the purpose for having different instructions was for.

[sandnsea]

15. No they aren't

There's different kinds of machines based on what the county election officer purchased.

My instructions say:

Use a ballpoint pen (no gel pens, no markers, no red ink) to mark your ballot by drawing a line between the head and tail of an arrow that points to your choices.

[Cleita]

2. In the past we used similar forms for inventories and

other such uses. We always had to use heavy graphite pencils so that the scanners would pick up the marks. I always wondered why this changes. Anybody?

:shrug:

[Ms. Toad]

14. Depends on the kind of light used in the scanner.

What is read as marked is based on what light is or is not reflected back to the sensors. If you change scanners (or the light source used in the scanner) the things acceptable to use for marking the ballot may well change. Most early scanners could only read marks made by graphite pencils or a very limited range of pens - more recent ones can generally read marks made with a wider variety of things.

[Marlie]

3. This makes me sick

My husband and I just mailed our absentee ballots today and of course, we used
a black bic pen. No where on the ballot did it indicate not to use black.
This is really upsetting.

[aquart]

4. Call all your representatives. All of them.

Scream to high heaven.

[sandnsea]

5. This was a local "tip"

The woman said they discovered black doesn't pick up as well as blue, not that it wouldn't pick up at all. Also, these were the bubble ballots, I don't know if the readers for the line ballots are the same.

The whole thing is upsetting though, I don't know why it can't be more consistent.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

7. Paper, pen, hand counted, nationwide

would be incredibly consistent and fair.

:D

[pnwmom]

11. yes it would be.

And it would be slower, but so what.

[Bandit]

22. Canada has always done it that way and they get results

as fast or faster than the USA. Go figure.....Them Canucks just can't seem to get it that machines are better than people, at least that is what the guy who ran on the meme "I Trust the People" said. He said "Machines are objective while people are Subjective so machines are the only thing which can be trusted"...:crazy:

[greeneyedboy]

8. good lord. this reminds me of all the ridiculous airport security policies.

you know, every day you read another few news stories about how lip balm won't be allowed, and neither will string cheese; then the next day it's a little different--3 oz. of liquid allowed, but still no string cheese, and no large containers; then the next day it's different again...

net result: DISTRACTION.

we all know the machines are not to be trusted, and those of us who care are ACTIVEly participating in safeguarding the vote, but i wonder if these daily bulletins of minutiae serve more to keep us off-balance and worried (instead of positively spreading our winning message with a very receptive public) than they do to help protect the democratic process.

not complaining that they're being posted--i just want us to stay focused and ACTIVE, not passive and distracted and jumping at shadows. that's no way to win.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

9. shadows?

I filled out the last ballot (2004) with a black bic.

Believe me, I'm so pissed right now there's nothing I want to do more than actively go out and scream this at the top of my lungs.

It's a little thing I know, in the general scheme of things, but it's pumped me up some.

[pnwmom]

10. Okay, so I googled this, expecting to find out it was a hoax

and I found some stuff on Black Box voting. I know how much many people around here seem to hate Bev Harris, but here was something interesting:

http://www.bbvforums.org/cgi-bin/forums/show.cgi?tpc=73&post=15611

"John -- It is thanks to your work (and the fact that you shared it publicly) that we were so intereted in this memo. I've read the infra-red ink memo several times, but it is quite ambiguous, in terms of whether they are doing something they shouldn't or not.

"It does document the importance of hand counting in recounts and spot checks. What is particularly obvious is that absentee votes should not be counted on scanners that use infra-red read heads, because you can't control the ink people use on absentees.

"I'll see if I can get some more information out of any of our ES&S sources about specific numbers. The first time, I think the numbers given to us were internal ES&S part numbers, not mfr. product numbers.

"Sounds like the 2100 referred to is a punch card reader that they were trying to convert to an optical scan type reader."

If I knew how to highlight here, I would have highlighted the second sentence in the second paragraph. "You can't control the ink people use on absentees."

Great.

[pnwmom]

12. And here's more.

Read it and weep.

"A black ink that is dye based rather than pigment based, will typically be invisible under IR light. IR light is reflected by most inks but is absorbed by carbon based (pigmented) inks.

"A voter provided with a dye-based black pen with which to vote, will unknowingly cast an undervote if the scanner relies on IR read heads.

"In the same way, a voter provided with a red pen with which to vote, will unknowingly cast an undervote if the scanner relies on RED visible light. RED appears to be the most common (cheapest) color used for visible light ballot scanning.

"On a related note, if a jurisdiction is going to use a high-resolution full-image digital scanner, the light source must not just be visible light, but visible white light. That way the image that is captured will not be given a particular color cast that could otherwise influence its interpretation, regardless of whether or not the interpretation is done by eyes or machines."

So . . . I hope a dark blue pen is the way to go. Or maybe the dark blue pen overlaid with dark black pencil?

Another option turns out to be India Ink, according to the same website. It can be read by both types of scanners.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

16. great info!

thanks!

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

17. Here in Cook County, IL we election judges have to make sure

that the voters using an optical scan ballot must use "special pens" that will be provided by the Cook County Board of Election.

This was emphasized big time at the training session I attended on October 10th. These "special pens" looked to me to be gel-ink, but then I didn't examine them very closely.

We were also told to make sure that the voters return these "special pens" to us after they cast their ballots. The trainers suggestion for getting the "special pens" back was to make sure that the cap wasn't given to the voters, just the pen itself. Their justification for this was that people handed a pen without a cap would be less likely to put the "special pen" in their purse or pocket and walk off with it. :wtf:

I've got a really bad feeling about this especially in the close IL Congressional races.

[marions ghost]

18. this is what we use too--

the voting place provides the special pens for opti-scan ballots--they appear to be felt tip markers to me.

If absentee voters are not told what kind of pen to use this is shameful. Anyone who thinks their vote might not be counted because of this should kick up a fuss. :(

[pnwmom]

20. Well, I have been been given an optical scan ballot in the past

and found no pen available at the cubby, so I fished whatever I had out of my purse. Great.

The scariest thing from just reading that one page on BBV was discovering the many ways, even if a voting site was trying hard to be honest, that balloting could go wrong.

You're right. Hand counting paper is the way to go.

[porphyrian]

19. Our reader won't accept the ballot if it can't read them.

I'm not saying this isn't a problem elsewhere, but it's not in Leon county, Florida.

[marions ghost]

21. that would seem

a simple enough solution to the problem. The voter immediately gets the chance to redo the ballot.

[porphyrian]

23. If only the rest of Florida would follow suit... - n/t

[marions ghost]

24. yes and it would be

interesting to know how many counties around the country that use opti-scan have this capability (and why would it NOT be standard?) We just can't have these microcosmic differences in election procedures.

A good topic for an election reform researcher.