Outrageous smear by Drudge against Jim Webb -- DEBUNKED!

[Skinner]

First, there is this cultural information from DUer flowomo:

ABSTRACT: Child rearing practices in the the Telugu-speaking people of India include behaviors of touching and kissing the penis. The meaning of these customs is not erotic or sexual, but if engaged in in America would most likely be misconstrued and the parents suspected of child sexual abuse. This example illustrates the importance of transcultural issues in assessing the meaning of genital gestures and practices.

http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume3/j3_4_4.htm

And this, also courtesy of flowomo:

PORTLAND, Me. (AP) - Maine's highest court reversed a previous conviction of a man accused of sexual abuse. Mohammad Kargar, an Afghan immigrant, claimed he kissed his 18-month-old son's penis as part of a cultural tradition. Kissing a son's penis is a very common tradition in Afghanistan, associated with showing love for the child. I feel much better now. I'm happy. My family is happy, said Kargar.

And here is the full context of the Drudge snip, which I got from the Amazon.com "search inside this book" function. Clearly Drudge has taken this way out of context.

[porphyrian]

1. Kick. - n/t

[Egalitariat]

2. How do you package that for the group of morons we call voters?***

nm

[troublemaker]

5. A war hero author reporting what he saw in service to his nation

Let the last two weeks be all about Webb's experiences in Vietnam.

[Gold Metal Flake]

3. This post should probably be pinned at some point.

Thanks for this.

[Beetwasher]

4. Skinner, I'm Very "Concerned" About This

Will you hold my hand and tell me a bedtime story please? :evilgrin:

[LostinVA]

21. I'm also "concerned"

[berni_mccoy]

6. Let's not forget MCCAIN ENDORSED THE BOOK TOO =====>

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/berni_mccoy/106

[originalpckelly]

7. So he didn't publish a book including pedophilia...

but one with a really gross/weird cultural tradition. (About as gross as having kid dance around a symbol of a phallus.)

[ACK]

8. Geeez its been out 10 days people

Even the FreeRepublic crowd had folks saying that it was a big load of crap and the Huffington Post site had a debunk up days ago and guess what people?

It still has not gotten traction.

Do not get whipped into a fury and give it traction.

Its not about incest but a bizarre social tradition and a characters reaction to it.

Its a smear that will fly when they are preaching to the choir. Freepers will whip themselves into a circle jerk fury over it and it might get a brief peep of press if we are all really unlucky.

But even John Mccain liked the book. Fuck em all get out and vote I am in VA and I sure as hell will.

[KingFlorez]

9. Thank you, Skinner

It's nice to see some common sense

[Bumblebee]

10. Josh Marshall has a great response to it

(October 26, 2006 -- 09:29 PM EST // link)

So now the Allen campaign has resorted to mining Jim Webb's novels for sex scenes.

If Allen really wants to play rough, maybe it's time for some Democrats to start going on the shows and asking about that sealed divorce records of Allen's. All those reporters have a pretty good idea of what's in there. But Sen. Allen (R-VA) just won't agree to let them see it.

It's almost like he's spitting in their face.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/

[flowomo]

24. the problem is that this is NOT proven to be a "sex scene"....

and Marshall is feeding into the misconception that it clearly is. The father may be expressing affection to his son, not assaulting him.

[flamingyouth]

11. Kick & recommended

:thumbsup:

[flowomo]

12. more "cultural" stuff if anyone is interested:

http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/GESUND/ARCHIV/GUS/GUSVOLIICH9.HTM

Thus, a detailed cultural analysis of the practice is rare. Among the exceptions exists a recent article by Rydstrøm (<2002:p4-5>)<17> noting for local Vietnamese:

"The fact that a son is bound up with significant symbolic meaning, is inseparable from a local recognition of a boy's body in biological terms, that is to say, his genitals (i.e. the Phallus). In Thinh Tri, the body of a little boy is generally a matter of common interest and concern. For example, a little boy is usually fondly called a thang cu, which means 'penis boy' (lit. male penis). The genitals of small Thinh Tri boys receive a great deal of attention by being commented on, joked about, or even grasped. The local ways in which boys' genitals are paid attention to are in sharp contrast to the fact that girls' genitals do not receive any special attention<18>. The widespread concern in Thinh Tri with respect to boys' genitals is related to the symbolism of blood, which does not mean the same with regard to females and males. Despite blood being acknowledged as a 'vital life force' (khi huyet) of both the female and male body, it is basically perceived of as a female energy. Its complementary male vital life force is 'semen' (khi), which is said to be the substance of male energy. This energy is thought to guarantee the continuation of the blood of a male's patrilineage. <…> Due to such assumptions about blood, a boy's genitals—and by extension, his body—are always already inscribed with the collected morality (dao duc), honor (danh du), and 'obligations' (nghia) of his past generations. Boys' bodies have accumulated body capital while girls' bodies have not <…>. Because a Thinh Tri boy's body holds inborn morality, honor, and reputation due to his relation to his patrilineage, his body i.e. the Phallus) condenses the preconditions for practicing good male morality. His body symbolizes the future good morality, honor, and reputation of his patrilineage and the performance of certain patrilineal rituals".

Hence,

"<…> a child's body is construed as a powerful socio-symbolic and material sign that reflects local life in terms of hierarchies, positions, and power. Local understandings of female and male bodies crystallize the fact that a child's body simultaneously is wrought socially (i.e. in terms of 'gender') and biologically (i.e. in terms of 'sex'). In this way, both the notions of sex and gender have a history, which is constructed discursively. In other words, both notions address the same question, which is namely, how female and male bodies are rendered meaningful in time and space".




9.2.1 Verbal Indices



Matters become more directly apparent in accompanying verbal reinforcements, directed to the baby/toddler or to audience. Only a selection of descriptions provide such accompanying commentaries:



The Vietnamese case being mentioned; Ordos Mongols: "<…> commonly touch the child's genitals and caress them, saying at the same time: "Give me this" <…>"; Okinawans: "Old women like to tweak a little boy's penis and jokingly say. "What is that, what is that?"; Balinese: "With the slight titillation go the repeated words: "Handsome, handsome, handsome", an adjective applied only to males. The little girl's vulva is patted gently, with the accompanying feminine adjective "Pretty, pretty, pretty" "; Borneo: "Mothers often hold infant boys aloft in the course of singing magical growth songs, blowing softly on the penis, while noting aloud sexual powers to come at maturity"; Sarawak: "Not infrequently, when brother's or sister's young child visits Ego, the latter will "make glad over him" (begaga ka ia) with the words, Jaum aku, ulun aku ("My captive, my slave")" ; Aritama: "Adults make joking remarks about the future virility of the baby, about the size of his penis, and about his reactions to such caresses"; Martinique: "Men fondle the penises of little boys, remarking publicly on their size and potential, impressing on the children expectations of their masculinity"; Puerto Rico: "<…> adults and older brothers and sisters are likely to tease and play with his genitals, kissing them and remarking on their size, commenting that he is a machito (real little male) or a machote (real he-man)"; "<…> parents and friends may play with the boy's genitals until he is around seven years old"; "parents would pull a two-year-old's penis, and inquire for its function. The answer would be, "For the women!"; "A two-year-old boy will be asked, "What is it for?" while an adult pulls at his penis; and sometimes the child will answer, "For women". Such a child is called malo (bad) or even malcria'o (badly brought up), but actually the terms are used with some measure of approval"; "As soon as they started talking, they asked them questions about their penis, for whom it was and for what it was needed. They answered it was for the chacha or the girl friend, or to playa trick on the girl friend. <…> If they had an erection, they were praised and the parents would celebrate it by telling them they had joined the masculine race". Morocco: "<…> affectionate genital contact some women extend when they greet or communicate with an infant"; "Little sisters, aunts, maids, and mothers often attract the little boy's attention to his htewta and try to teach him to pronounce the word, which is quite a task given the gutteral initial letter h. One of the common games played by adult females with a male child is to get him to understand the connection between sidi (master) and the htwta. Hada sidhum ("This is their master"), say the women, pointing to the child's penis. The kissing of the child's penis is a normal gesture for a female relative who has not seen him since his birth. Tbarkallah 'ala-r-Rajal ("God protect the man"), she may whisper"; Turkey: "<…> grandparents and parents fondled their genitals and repeated: "You are male, you are male" ". Olson-Prather noted that a teenage neighbour girl of the elite class expressed verbal but not physical admiration; "In Egypt the mother may attempt to prepare her son gradually for the circumcision operation by "caressing his organ and playfully endeavoring to separate the foreskin from the glans. While doing this she would hum words to the effect that what she is doing will help to make him become a man amongst men"; Eskimo children would copy the practice "to caricature the physical raptures of their parents with cries of "It's wonderful!" ".

[slipslidingaway]

36. Thanks for posting these references. n/t

[flowomo]

38. you're welcome...

Google is our friend.

[Marie26]

13. It's probably something he saw in Vietnam. nt

[originalpckelly]

14. This one is debunked...

but did he really write all the others about the women? I'm telling you Webb is dead now, conservative Christians are not going to like the other quotes. Now Senator Allen could have a backfire, because just Bill Clinton's little Monica affair, people in that part of the world don't like people writing this, but they also don't like people putting it out there on the news and in ads and in press releases.

This whole decency bit is interesting. (Though I don't think Allen is playing it the right way, the quotes I read just gave graphic descriptions of the female body. Not really a demeaning thing, so if they don't spin this to a decency perspective, they won't get the right people.)

Oh shit, one of the quotes is female-oriented pedophilia. Not good, because that doesn't have thing to do with cultural practices.

Damn! We have got to go through their backgrounds and screen these people better before accepting or something (just for these really conservative areas.)

[Bumblebee]

16. Yes, of course. Conservative Christians were planning to vote for Webb

en masse, and now they won't. Right... :silly:

[originalpckelly]

19. That is true, very true...

and actually I don't think these are that offensive for non-fundies so this may not do anything.

[annabanana]

18. are you concerned about the "death of Webb"?

I'm not concerned. Who listens to Drudge anymore?

[originalpckelly]

20. No look at the post above this...

very good common sense argument. Conservative Christians probably weren't going to vote for Webb anyway. So this doesn't matter.

[Clarkie1]

37. Webbs writing career is not and will not be an issue in the race, unless...

Allen makes it an issue, in which case it will be good for Webb because it will cast Allen in a bad light.

[Coexist]

65. correct.

[greccogirl]

70. Webb is in

trouble, I think.

[magnolia]

75. It's fiction!!!!

Is everybody suppose to write books where all the characters speak in a perfectly politically correct manner? Do you think when Truman Capote wrote "In Cold Blood" he was thinking....oh no, everyone going to think I'm a murderer!

I thought true conservatives wanted the government out of their personal lives. Do we now want the government to determine what should be written and what should be read?

[karlrschneider]

15. Thanks, Skinner...we need to be reminded from time to time why you're

the real deal around here! :D
:toast:

[Cheney Killed Bambi]

17. Kick

[TahitiNut]

22. If Drudge (or his heroes) had ever been within 100 miles of Nam ...

... naww ... I'm not going to talk again about how they'd have almost zilch life expectancy. Their kind of arrogant ignorance is fatal under certain circumstances.

[bullwinkle428]

31. Think "Niedermeyer" from "Animal House"...

:rofl:

[TahitiNut]

34. Exactly.

[renegade000]

23. kick

n/t

[UTUSN]

25. Another case of PUDGE tittilating and projecting his OWN fantasies

and, more to the point, digging into everybody (Dem) else's lives while INSISTING that his own life and reading materials in airports are PRIVATE.

[Cheney Killed Bambi]

26. Kick again

[Coexist]

68. .

[Rex]

27. Awesome!

The Repukes are really working overtime on Webb. Must have em scared! GJ DU!

[ruggerson]

28. I just sent this thread to HuffPo

Hopefully, they'll highlight it.

[ruggerson]

29. Check this out!

It's apparently a custom in Vietnam, as we suspected:


http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/GESUND/ARCHIV/GUS/GUSVOLIICH9.HTM#_Toc23539269

9.2 Culture and Infant's Genitals


A cross-check with SCCS "sexual restraint" measures (early childhood, N=21) suggests that cultures for which the practice is noted are situated in the low or mid-range. Speaking with Becker's<16> formulations, it seems that a number of these cultures are to be classified among the "sex-positive" ones which would generally define sexual activities in operational and prescriptive terms; in others, the emphasis has to be put on a pro-fertility concern. In still other societies, it seems to anticipate a sexual culture characterised by a rigid double standard principle. In most cases, however, the ethnographer is comfortable with the explanation that it pleases the baby, or its use as a sedative or hypnotic.

Given the low frequency of cultures that may "teach masturbation" (N=5) by the practice, and the seemingly paradoxical co-existence of discouraging while practising (N=3) suggests that direct behaviour modification intents are rare. On the other hand, intents that clearly suggest an attitudinal shaping, for instance, an introduction to heterosexual agenda, may also be rare. However, this may reflect ethnographers' hesitation to address or explore the issue.

Thus, a detailed cultural analysis of the practice is rare. Among the exceptions exists a recent article by Rydstrøm (<2002:p4-5>)<17> noting for local Vietnamese:

"The fact that a son is bound up with significant symbolic meaning, is inseparable from a local recognition of a boy's body in biological terms, that is to say, his genitals (i.e. the Phallus). In Thinh Tri, the body of a little boy is generally a matter of common interest and concern. For example, a little boy is usually fondly called a thang cu, which means 'penis boy' (lit. male penis). The genitals of small Thinh Tri boys receive a great deal of attention by being commented on, joked about, or even grasped. The local ways in which boys' genitals are paid attention to are in sharp contrast to the fact that girls' genitals do not receive any special attention<18>. The widespread concern in Thinh Tri with respect to boys' genitals is related to the symbolism of blood, which does not mean the same with regard to females and males. Despite blood being acknowledged as a 'vital life force' (khi huyet) of both the female and male body, it is basically perceived of as a female energy. Its complementary male vital life force is 'semen' (khi), which is said to be the substance of male energy. This energy is thought to guarantee the continuation of the blood of a male's patrilineage. <…> Due to such assumptions about blood, a boy's genitals—and by extension, his body—are always already inscribed with the collected morality (dao duc), honor (danh du), and 'obligations' (nghia) of his past generations. Boys' bodies have accumulated body capital while girls' bodies have not <…>. Because a Thinh Tri boy's body holds inborn morality, honor, and reputation due to his relation to his patrilineage, his body i.e. the Phallus) condenses the preconditions for practicing good male morality. His body symbolizes the future good morality, honor, and reputation of his patrilineage and the performance of certain patrilineal rituals".

Hence,

"<…> a child's body is construed as a powerful socio-symbolic and material sign that reflects local life in terms of hierarchies, positions, and power. Local understandings of female and male bodies crystallize the fact that a child's body simultaneously is wrought socially (i.e. in terms of 'gender') and biologically (i.e. in terms of 'sex'). In this way, both the notions of sex and gender have a history, which is constructed discursively. In other words, both notions address the same question, which is namely, how female and male bodies are rendered meaningful in time and space".

[flowomo]

32. I posted that above.... post #12....

nt

[Richard Steele]

30. So, you're saying that Matt Drudge is less than 100% truthful? I'm shocked!

not.

[Rockstone]

33. HAH!

I thought so. It was cropped to such a tiny abstract it made you wonder what they were trying to hide.

[Clarkie1]

35. Webb is a great writer who does his research and will make a great senator. nt

[autorank]

39. THANKS FROM VIRGINIA...Drudge must go to blogger purgatory

forever for this one. KR

[Straight Shooter]

40. Well, it's not as if he wrote about a bear raping a young girl, is it?

Beastiality being somewhat more acceptable to Drudge, no doubt.

http://www.thebookstandard.com/bookstandard/news/author/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001434947

The (Scooter) Libby book conjures a young Japanese man who runs a remote mountain inn and becomes trapped in intrigue. The book includes incest, a hunter who wonders if he should shag a freshly killed deer while it's still warm, and a girl kept in a cage and raped by a bear to train her to become a prostitute.

Webb's book depicts factual, if disturbing contents to our notions of proper treatment of children. Libby, who only happened to be Cheney's right-hand man and helped to orchestrate the war on Iraq, has an imagination which includes perverse and traumatizing treatment of children.

Drudge is really scraping the barrel, but that's what Repubs do.

[domlaw]

84. our notions of proper treatment of children

I'd emphasize the OUR. What you are talking about is western / christian notions of child rearing. I'd often get into the argument when I took my degree in History. Even though you may disagree and or you feel that it somehow is against your morals, does not mean it's wrong. While we in western society find this repulsive and abhorent, in other cultures it would be quite normal.


Problem is most people want all cultures to conform to western values. We have learnt nothing.

[Straight Shooter]

87. Well, I was reared American and thus imbued mostly with Western ideas.

I read other articles on Webb's book and the controversial passage, and I agree it's a cultural reaction if a person is repulsed by it. I believe there's something repulsive in every culture when viewed by outsiders, e.g., beheading vs. lethal injection.

I have no desire to inflict my sense of what's right and wrong on other people. In fact, I deplore that our so-called "values" are being exported around the world.

Try not to read so much into one word, "our," lest I point out that you use the word "we" in your sentence, "We have learnt nothing." Many of us have learned a great deal.

:hi:

[domlaw]

90. Good Point.

[LTR]

41. Sure enough, Macaca was a chickenhawk

After graduating, Allen completed a Juris Doctor degree from the University of Virginia School of Law in 1977. In 1976 he was the chairman of the "Young Virginians for Ronald Reagan". Allen was a supporter of Richard Nixon and the Vietnam War, although he did not serve in that conflict, taking a student deferment instead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Allen_%28U.S._politician%29

Why am I not surprised? :eyes:

[Quixote1818]

42. O'Reilly, Lynn Chaney and Scooter Libby wrote much worse than this! nt

[Tennessee Gal]

43. Imus and Begala discussing this right now ..............

[jefferson_dem]

44. What did they say? I'm interested in Begala's take especially.

n/t

[Tennessee Gal]

46. Begala's take was

that the whole thing is ridiculous because Webb was writing fiction. He brought up Lynn Cheney's book. He should have brought Libby's book, too.

[Catchawave]

50. Thanks for that... I turned Imus off

when the fake Dr. Phil was making a banana joke :mad:

[Little Star]

53. I missed Begala's comments this am and

did not know anything about Webb being an author. After dropping off my grandson at school I turned on the radio. First thing I heard was Bernie (on Imus) talking about Webb's book. He said that it has something about a women cutting a banana with her virgina. Must admit it took me aback. I came on home and just got on DU to see what I could find out abut it and here I am. What the heck kinda book is it? I know that it is a novel but what the heck does the women cutting a banana have to do with anything? Did he write more than one book? I ask because I see people talking about tribal rituals but a banana? I am confused.

[Norquist Nemesis]

56. So, Imus stayed up all night reading the book or something?

I missed the comments from Begala also and I've been trying to catch up on this "development" here at DU. Just saw Chuck Todd on MSNBC (Todd's wife is apparently working on Webb's campaign). According to Todd, it's to get the base motivated. So, in that vein, it's been debunked quickly and should anyone use that as an argument to vote for Allen (or against Webb) they weren't going to vote for Webb in the first place. :shrug:

[domlaw]

85. I saw a girl

Who could shoot ping pong balls about 20 feet. I got talking to her afterwards, she thought it was great fun, so did everyone else.

[wicket]

45. K & R

:kick:

[Coexist]

47. kick

[dogday]

48. Drudge just wishes someone would touch

his penis....

[npincus]

49. Fine. I'm buying. But will the MORONS (electorate) get it?

NO.

[OilemFirchen]

51. In another ancient custom...

The family and friends hover bemusedly whilst a holy man grabs the infant's penis and slices off the tender outer skin.

Now that's salacious!

[LostinVA]

58. Nice point!

[OilemFirchen]

74. Here's another...

In some ancient tribes, cult followers wear a replica of a near-naked man nailed to a cross, often with graphic depictions of blood pouring from his wounds.

At frequent ritutals, they partake in the symbolic drinking of his blood and eating of his body.

So much perversion. I'm concerned.

[vssmith]

77. In some varieties of these cults they claim they are drinking

actual blood after a high priest changes the wine to blood via transubstantiation

[TankLV]

89. Owwww - you said "point"! Owwwww....

[Phillycat]

79. And in some more conservative sects of that religion...

The moisha sucks the blood off the penis himself. Yep - look it up.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Little Star]

54. Post#53. Can someone answer please? Thanks

[Midlodemocrat]

55. If Allen uses this against Webb, it only shows how stupid Allen

really is that he didn't recognize a cultural reference.

Allen is such an unbelievable POS, though, I wouldn't put it past him.

So far, I haven't seen anything about this here.

[Norquist Nemesis]

57. Another Macaca moment. n/t

[LostinVA]

59. Me either -- even the office Freeper is keeping quiet

Probably because her husband did three tours in Vietnam, and has probably told her lots of stories about "strange" Vietnamese behavior.

[The Magistrate]

60. Kick

[Catchawave]

61. Jim Webb Defends Content of his Novels

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2909050&mesg_id=2909050

[mhatrw]

62. Republican Porn

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/articles/051107ta_talk_collins

[Coexist]

63. kicking for Rush to read.

[karlrschneider]

64. Kicking again for visibility

:kick:

[grizmaster]

66. Have you seen McCain's praising reviews of Webb's books?

gotta love this

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780440240914&view=quotes

On Lost Soldiers

“James Webb’s new novel paints a portrait of a modern Vietnam charged with hopes for the future but haunted by the ghosts of its war-torn past. It captures well the lingering scars of the war, and exposes the tension between the dynamism of a new generation and the invisible bondage of an older generation for whom wartime allegiances, and animosities, are rendered no less vivid by the passage of time. A novel of revenge and redemption that tells us much about both where Vietnam is headed and where it has been.”
— Senator John McCain

On The Emperor’s General

“With The Emperor’s General, Jim Webb cements his reputation as an extraordinarily gifted storyteller. He excels in mining the rich veins of history to invest his fiction with the drama of great events.... An engrossing, moving, and splendid book.”
— Senator John McCain

[underpants]

67. Allen thinks that Amazing Grace was written for him.

What is your favorite hymn?

Allen: “Amazing Grace.” ... I look at “Amazing Grace” when the song is sung, and I think that it was written for me. ... The thing about “Amazing Grace,” whether it’s a church organ, whether it’s a bluegrass band, whether it is bagpipes. No matter whatever instruments are used to play it, it is just a great song.

Webb: “Amazing Grace.”

http://www.styleweekly.com/article.asp?idarticle=13267

[greccogirl]

69. Crap.

This is going to hurt Webb.

[OilemFirchen]

71. Seriesly?!? You thik hell' loose?!!?11

How much by. Whats you're take? Will it be Hugh?!?11?

[greccogirl]

82. ???

I think it might hurt him. I hope not. I'm sick of all this stuff that is dredged up in every election process.

[LittleClarkie]

86. Unga binga bunga to you too dear

I believe this person was just expressing an opinion. Are you implying they are a freeper?

Btw,that bit, if it were ever funny, ceased to be thus about 100 repeats ago. But then, I never thought misspelling things on purpose was amusing.

[texasleo]

72. this will backfire like the phone sex "scandal", mark my words

[troublemaker]

73. Take "FICTION" and "REPUBLICAN PORN" out of all talking points

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2497074

[renegade000]

76. kick

n/t

[Kire]

78. What is Drudge supposed to think?

Webb's novel completely changes the subject after "he puts his son't penis in his mouth". He's not even kissing it, like your cultural studies say. He seems to be sucking his son's dick. And then there is no explanation. Just, "What do you call this place?"

I was an Anthropology major in college, so I can appreciate cultural studies like this, But I know that there should at least be some context explaining the cultural differences if it is read by a western audience.

I don't think Drudge is being outrageous at all.

[MissWaverly]

80. thanks, Skinner for the heads up on this

thanks, we appreciate it.

:-)

[Mike Nelson]

81. In context, there is NOTHING erotic or disturbing....

...just odd, like a cultural thing. Certainly nothing like CIRCUMCISION or drinking THE BLOOD OF JESUS or Lynn Cheney's soft core lesbians. This guy Allen is a monster.

[eleny]

83. My brother's wife is of Italian decent

When my sister in law's sis had a baby boy, her mom and aunts would kiss the baby's tummy and penis and no one thought anything about it.

My brother and I had never witnessed that in our family. We're of northern Eurpoean ancestry. But we weren't horrified. Different customs is all we thought. :shrug:

[vssmith]

88. I only know on thing for sure.

If I lived in Virginia I would be extremely embarrassed to have Citizen Allen as my Senator. I am somewhat uncomfortable living in the same country with him in the US Senate.