Yet another Burqa thread. Your opinion?

[Matariki]

The (very heated) threads on this issue seem to be divided between the idea of that it's a cultual issue and therefore not an 'outsiders' business to judge or whether it's a human rights issue. I'm curious how this argument falls along gender lines.

My question is NOT about woman wearing veils in the US and whether or not it's a choice, but how people feel about women having to wear them in hard line fundamentalist countries.

[clydefrand]

1. People should be able to choose what they wear if they can

afford to buy what they need or want. The sex of a person shouldn't have anything to do with it. However, if the women are MADE to wear them against their will just because the men said they had too, "hell, no!" And yes, men did write the books/rules that said what the women have to do. No woman would make another woman wear a something against their will...that is, if she has any sense at all.

[originalpckelly]

2. What about guys who want to wear burqas?

You know like Michael Jackson did in Dubai?

[Cleita]

4. Good point!

What if a guy wants to wear a cape, like a super hero. Should he be arrested for not dressing like he's expected to?

[Matariki]

10. really!? I could see that ;-)

[Cleita]

3. It isn't the veil. It's the way men think about women.

I've run into the same sexist attitudes in very white communities. The women go along with it too. They don't see any reason that they shouldn't be doormats for their men. The problem in some countries is that these attitudes are also law. So to answer your question, if a woman chooses to wear this costume, then we shouldn't interfere.

If a woman is stoned because she won't wear these clothes, then certainly diplomatic relations would demand that we address these inequalities in treaties and trade agreements that we sign like we do with other human rights abuses.

[Quantess]

5. I get a little insulted by the notion

that respecting someone's barbaric culture takes precedence over respecting women.

[WhollyHeretic]

7. I'm always amazed by even liberals supporting sexism and bigotries if they are in the name of

religion.:wtf:

[distantearlywarning]

8. Me too.

It's pretty shocking, actually. I've been depressed tonight reading these burka threads.

[smirkymonkey]

50. Nice way of putting it. I completely agree.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

6. Other Cultures Have A Right To Their Cultures. It Isn't My Place To Judge

them or tell them that my culture is better.

If they have problems with their own culture, it is up to them to change it themselves. I have respect for the cultures of others, even if there are things I don't understand or things I don't agree with about them.

[Quantess]

11. But, most of the points of contention

have focused on the presence of their misogynistic cultures in our western countries, such as England, Australia, and the US. Does that change anything for you? For me, it's relevant that these bones of contention are occurring in western countries, because it isn't acceptable here.

[marions ghost]

all cultures are judged by others

Bound feet are pretty much passe. Eating humans is dying out. Sacrificing virgins hasn't been big for awhile now. Methods of torture have improved since the rack. Hitler was (finally) stopped. We have made strides, but abominations remain.

We should judge the practice of women being forced to wear burqa harshly. Doesn't mean we can stop it, but we should judge it and connect it to other repressions and violations that Muslim women bear. On the other hand we shouldn't expect Muslim women to find our western forms of undress and sexual display to be the best alternative around to NOT wearing the burqa. These are two extremes and never the twain shall meet, I'm sure.

The veil is much more than a form of modest dress. It is highly symbolic and goes along with a kind of degradation and annihilation of the human spirit that we as a civilized society, should find objectionable. It is not a benign or neutral kind of custom.

[smirkymonkey]

52. Great post!

Imagine if the world was run by cultural relatavists, we'd still have slavery and concentration camps. Oh wait, we do. Never mind.

Seriously, though, I appreciate your thoughtful post and for adding a new dimension to the discussion.

[marions ghost]

55. thanks

While it's desirable to celebrate cultural diversity and respect other religions, I don't think it's necessary to go to the extreme of adopting a completely hands-off, Do Not Judge (and be not judged) attitude toward every aspect of another culture. There are some practices that conflict too much with basic human freedom and dignity to be left unchallenged.

I wonder if this cultural relativist attitude grows when people feel their own freedoms threatened at home. You would logically think it would be more prevalent when people feel more secure in their freedoms, but I'm not so sure about that. It would be interesting to try to correlate the two. Do we react to extremely negative judgmental groups in our midst, such as Christian Fundamentalists -- by going to the other extreme--of not wanting to judge at all?

[readmoreoften]

13. You respect that they'll beat a woman for showing a strand of hair.

Or execute her for being a lesbian? Hey, I understand not wanting to call a military intervention over it. But you *respect* it. Women go to JAIL and are BEATEN for having a lock of hair fall out.

[Matariki]

14. I guess what I wonder is when is it culture and when is it abuse?

How do you feel about gays being beheaded in Saudi Arabia? Do you feel that's a human rights issue or a cultural issue?

[katsy]

9. For some reason, my vote gives an error when trying to confirm.

So... I'll just say - I'm a woman and people's cultural traditions are not for me to judge and I'm holding my nose when I say that.

Holding my nose because as distasteful as the thought of being made to wear what a man has made law that I wear, IMO it is imperative that changes to a culture comes from within a culture.

When do we as Americans stop meddling in other country's affairs? Chavez is bad because he is a socialist (sort of). The Japanese women are too subserviant. Russian men are all alcoholics. Columbians are all drug dealers. Koreans are all sneaky. I mean none of what I just laid out is true... but some times it just best we get our own house in order. Just look at all the anti-abortion legislation some wackos are trying to push here! We taser children. We torture. We put pot smokers in jail and then use them as slave labor for corporate fascists. We have the highest rates of infant deaths and homelessness in the industrialized world. We are the worlds biggest voyeurs constantly peeking into people's bedrooms and private lives. We spend more on weapons of death than the rest of the world combined. We put corporate profits above the well being of society to the point that all of may as well start wearing burquas for all the value we have. Who are we to judge anyone?

Stoning woman is another story, as is genocide.

[Matariki]

12. what did you think about Apartheid?

The change in South Africa came, in part, from pressure from the outside. There are plenty of women working for change within fundamentalist muslim countries and often they are punished for it. I remember when women were shot in Iran when they were protesting and wearing western clothing. Don't you think these women should get global support for their rights? I believe our 'interference' in Iraq and Afghanistan has actually made the situation WORSE for women. So perhaps we should be a little more concerned.

[Bobbieo]

15. Here's another take on the subject!!!

If I saw someone enter a convenience store where I was at 10pm wearing a full-face "niqab" outfit, I would hit the floor. hit 911 on my cell phone and scream "attempted robbery"!!!

[katsy]

19. The UN condemned apartheid as racist and a crime against humanity.

Sanctions were applied.

So let me ask you: Do you believe the UN should condemn the muslim faith a crime against humanity? Should we sanction all Islamists?

I agree that amerikan foreign policy has made matters worse for all Islamic woman.

But what is the solution? Occupying ALL countries that require women to wear burquas? You can't force change on a belief system in that manner.

IMO, a foreign policy that is respectful of cultural differences would INSPIRE Islamic women to change their society slowly and in a manner that doesn't get them dead en masse.

There is no doubt Muslim women would get global support for their rights when THEY are the ones leading the change.

[Matariki]

24. Hasn't the UN condemned this treatment of women?

This isn't about the muslim faith - I know muslims and they are nothing like this. As far as the pressure that can be exerted, I don't know the answer to that. People argued whether sanctions against South Africa helped or hurt the cause against Apartheid - before it ended. I just find it offensive that when it's women being oppressed it is somehow different.

Feminists ARE being killed for trying to change things within their culture: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2374100,00.html

I can't help but think that if this were Tibetans, or Gays, or Blacks - instead of women, people at DU would be outraged.

[katsy]

I think there's more than one sect of Muslims.

Sunni, Shia, Ahmadists, the western Nation of Islam.

But what makes you think that we don't all find this misogyinist practice outrageous?

As far as I'm concerned, it is outrageous. But how does change happen if not within the Muslim culture itself?

Do you not think that in this politically charged environment that bushco* has manufactured that Muslim men in some sects wouldn't slaughter all of their women rather than give in to the great devil amerikka if attacked their way of life? As pitiful as it is, it is their way and unless change comes from within it won't help to set sanctions, condemn the practice or attack them.

Wasn't it busco* who said he wanted to bring "freedom and democracy" to Iraq? Look at that fiasco!

How many people died to end slavery in America? How many more died to assert their civil rights?

Look, far be it from me to sound like a miss amerikka contestant but I'd like to see peace and love among all mankind. But I'm not stupid enough to think that it won't cost and cost dearly in terms of human sacrifice and, yes, martyrs to the cause. That's just a historical fact.

Over time, and should relations between western cultures and Muslim people ever become normalized and respective... change will come. First it will come by the younger students coming to America to get an education. Some will marry and their children will rebel as children have always rebeled against their parents. It will come. Not without many more autrocities.. many more martyrs. But it will happen. I trust in the wisdom of youth to reject the dogma of their parents.

[Quantess]

37. I think you are too fat to reach the keyboard!

Keep huffin and puffin!

[katsy]

33. dupe - i hate my new mouse.

[Quantess]

31. I think it's excellent that Junior High students get involved in politics.

I think it's great that teenagers are involved in politics.

[katsy]

35. Was that directed at me?

There's a handy dandy ignore button if I have somehow offended you.

Maybe DU should make a new rule that no dissenting opinion is allowed. Oooops, that would make DU a freeper site, no?

[Quantess]

38. Not at all.

We have teenagers active at DU. I think it's commendable for teenagers to be politically involved.

If you are older than 18, I'm so sorry.

[Quantess]

39. I just said, I think it's wonderful that teens like you are involved in politics.

Don't you think it's wonderful that a teen like you is involved in politics? It's cause celebre.

[marions ghost]

16. you describe the horrors of our society well...

and in some ways they are no worse. Good point.

But I would also say that we should judge certain things about our culture harshly, as well as judging abusive practices found in other cultures harshly. We should object to it wherever we find it.

[katsy]

22. You know... I agree with you.

We should judge abusive practices harshly: Racism. Genocide. Organ cultivation in China where they take organs from prisoners... dead or alive. Child labor. Occupation of Palestinian land.

For the life of me I don't understand how an entire belief system with all its bullshit (meaning forcing women to wear burquas) can be forced to change by external forces. What would be required to do that? Declare participating countries axises of evil?

[Quantess]

40. .

[katsy]

self-delete - dupe

[katsy]

23. self-delete - trip

New mouse.

[Quantess]

17. "When do we as Americans stop meddling in other country's affairs?"

What about the fact that these shitty practices are being imported here, and to Australia and England?

[treestar]

26. But here it is purely a choice

They can leave off the veil when they get here if they want to. When they're here, the government of Iran or the like can't do anything about it if they quit it. So it can't be imported here as an oppression.

I wouldn't expect Muslim women to just drop it all immediately - but it won't take many generations in the US before they do. Any immigrant group is like that - take Indian women, the older ones wear the saris, some now wear them in a newish style where they look like pantsuits, but the next generation is always wearing American clothes. So it is with any immigrant group.

[Quantess]

27. That is an assumption on your part.

"purely a choice".

[treestar]

54. Well the American government is not going to enforce it legally.

They can't be stoned for not wearing it in America.

[katsy]

28. If those shitty practices include murder...

the murderers are subject to our laws.

[Quantess]

34. Yes, I would assume so.

:wtf:

[CJCRANE]

51. I see it more as an act of rebellion.

Muslims are constantly under attack these days both militarily and culturally. I see this as the reason for the rise in fundamentalism.

In the Clinton era American pop culture was gaining ground all over the world (for better or worse). Now in the era of "shock and awe" and Abu Ghraib more people are rejecting that culture and strengthening their own cultures. It's an understandable reaction.

[Quantess]

36. Look, dude...

you need to figure out how to get laid, without blaming anyone else for the problems caused by your microphallus.

[katsy]

41. Your email to me was vile and this message to me is likewise.

If you take issue with something I've said... make your point.

Swiftboating and smearing someone instead of debating the issues is a gop tactic.

I'm a woman. An athiest. I find burqas offensive. So what? Do you attack and occupy countries for that offense?

You have a problem with reading comprehension I'm afraid.

[Quantess]

43. never mind. I was probably wrong.

Let me take a moment to clear my mind.

[Quantess]

44. ,

[Quantess]

46. I don't think you are a woman.

And you can't spell atheist.
I truly, from the bottom of my heart, know you are ingenuous.
And you are ABSOLUTELY NOT a female. I am offended, not only that you claim to be a woman, but that you mimick women badly.

[katsy]

53. Spelling? bwa ha ha ha ha

What's "tensy" trivial anyway?

Yeah... absolutes without any supporting facts. Like wmds in Iraq, completely foolish assertions.

As for the rest of your tirade... you know where the ignore button is.

[Quantess]

42. .

[Quantess]

48. who else thinks this elicits a smell?

It stinks to high heaven.

Another thing, "katsy" is a man.

[T Town Jake]

64. "Who are we to judge anyone?" Yeppers, the South should have been able to...

...keep their slave system, too; after all, it was part of their culture, right? So who are we to "judge"? Right?

:sarcasm:

[katsy]

66. That isn't my position at all.

But what happens to those women if outsiders try to force the change on their society?

IMO, change has to happen from within their society. Slavery was not abolished because other countries forced change on this society.

Forcing women to wear burqas is misogynist. But the question is should we attack and occupy a country to stop the offensive practice?

Would a UN condemnation help? Maybe. But last I looked the UN is mostly made up of men. What did their condemnation of Darfur do to help stop the genocide?

I mean, spreading democracy to the middle east has worked so bloody well so far. NOT.

[StellaBlue]

18. I voted C, but

I would like to add that I think veils are stupid, Islam is stupid, Christianity is stupid, VooDoo is stupid, and Viking pagan worship is stupid.

[mondo joe]

20. Can't answer -- "required" by whom?

If the government/law requires her to wear it, or requires her to obey someone who wants her to wear it, then I think you've got a human rights problem.

If she chooses to wear it for religious or cultural reasons, no.

[VeggieTart]

21. Here is a great opinion piece by Anne Applebaum

About respecting the culture in the place where you are.

http://www.slate.com/id/2152031/

I personally don't have an issue with the head scarf, the kind that wraps around the head, but leaves the face exposed. I have huge issues with the niqab. As Applebaum pointed out, in Western cultures, not showing one's face is considered rude and possibly deceptive. Of course, they can criticize our oversexed culture, but I'm not beaten if I wear the "wrong" clothes, as women are in some Muslim countries.

[Quantess]

25. Anne Applebaum........hmm

I know I have read her editorials before, and I have a vague recollection that she's a very prissy pundit. I don't have a clear memory of everything she wrote, but she's not on the left side of moderate.
However, I like her for saying that!

[tomp]

29. i oppose the uniting of state and religion in all cases

THAT is the underlying human rights question.

[NuttyFluffers]

30. "hard line fundamentalist countries"

these countries are already a big nest of human rights issues, so just add the oppression by the "fashion police" on top of the heap. that said, i believe indirect exemplary behavior (and encouragement), instead of direct intervention, to encourage societal choice and options in cultural expression is better. it is better to let the people themselves decide, because you otherwise run the risk of alienating them and send them running back into the fatal embrace of reactionary control freaks. perfect example is the recent issue with Iran -- things could've been so much better if we didn't freak everyone over there about invasion and thus undo so much potential among the youth...

see, whenever i see the term "hard-line fundamentalist country" i immediately read: "no choice in any significant part of your life." that in itself is a problem. so any permutations of its abusiveness being exhibited is naturally bad. it could be about men having to shave their beards, and children forced to eat wonder bread, it wouldn't matter. sure there's something to be said about the difference between sin and shame cultures, and the difference between individualistic and communal cultures, but in the long run even that cultural division allows for such an array of choice that is just about never present in hard-line fundamentalist cultures. well, not openly at least. i do know for a fact that hard-line fundamentalist countries do operate on a double standard like all lawful-evil societies: those who have the gold make the rules, and do as you please but better not get caught. funny enough, one could make the argument that we've been gravitating as a country towards that very such thing...

[Wise Child]

32. Somewhat off topic but,

When the Democrats take a majority in Congress, a common Freeper gripe will be "Your wives and daughters will soon have to be fitted for Burqas, so take their measurements now."

[treestar]

58. lol, so true. And yet they "want to kill us all."

[133724]

45. I grew up in a Lutheran Tradition

In that tradition it was not required but a common practice for women to wear veils to church on sundays (circa 1955).

They were similar to those in the picture below...

Frankly, in my view whether or not a woman wears a veil is a question of her religious beliefs. (I am assuming of course that there is no coercion with respect to her beliefs).

[Matariki]

60. NOT coerced?? Downright forced is what they are.

Please do a google search for what happens to women who don't cover themselves from head to toe in fundamentalist countries.

here's some articles to start you off: http://atangledweb.typepad.com/weblog/2006/09/burqa_off.html

or this happy one that mentions women having acid thrown in their faces for not covering themselves: http://www.hinduonnet.com/2001/09/09/stories/13090296.htm

The issue isn't about the clothes, it's about women's rights. Being forced to wear the burqa goes hand in hand with an absolute lack of rights - needing male permission or an escort to travel, not allowed to vote, not allowed to drive, and so forth. What upsets me is how women's rights don't seem to rank as high of a concern to my fellow progressives as other human rights issues. It's dismissed as a 'cultural issue'.

[PsychoDad]

47. I support a woman's right to choose.

Forced to wear, forced not to wear.

Same difference.

It's her body, let her choose.

What about countries that force women to wear shirts or pants? Why isn't that a form of oppression? Isn't the forced covering of breasts also a result of male domination?

What about polynesian women who were forced to cover their breasts by the European invaders, and continue to be forced to cover themselves in western society?

Isn't that equal to being forced to wear a veil ?

Peace.

[sweetpotato]

49. Don't mess with the Patriarchy

I read somewhere, probably here on DU, that the women that are "circumcised" actually prefer this because female genitals in the natural state are "ugly."

Where did they learn that standard of "beauty?"

[treestar]

57. The weird thing is all cultures have stuff like this, even ours

Why do women wear high-heels, get liposuction, face lifts, go into tanning booths, have their hair colored or permed, obsess over their weight and spend billions trying to get their weight just right, use make-up, etc. We've at least got to admit that the Muslim version relieves the women of all that stuff. Botox, waxing, in a way, they must have a lot more time than we do for doing other things.

[sweetpotato]

59. Different people, same patriarchy. nt

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

56. Let me put it this way,

if men were also required or asked to wear a burqa in the same fashion (no pun!) as the women, then I would have no problem with it. But since it's just women who must (or have the choice, as some have opined) to wear this apparel, then I do have a problem with it.

[Nikia]

61. I oppose requiring it, but don't think that it is the most important issue

I think the right to drive, travel, work, bear witness, and vote are more important issues than required dress. I think the right not to be mutilated, killed, beaten, or raped are more important issues.
If we fix the other issues, women in those cultures can decide for themselves whether they wear the burka or any other form of the veil.

[Matariki]

65. yes indeed

Those are the actual human rights violations i was thinking about when i posted the OP. Perhaps it would have been better to phrase it that way? "Do you think women not being allowed to travel without permission, work, vote, drive, etc., is a human rights issue or a cultural issue"

That might have sorted this out more clearly.

[Spinoza]

62. On the one hand,

every human being should have the right to dress any way they wish. (So long as they don't "frighten the horses.") On the other hand, it is hard to believe that--without intimidation or indoctrination--large numbers of women would actually CHOSE to wear the equivalent of a Beekeepers (in Maher's phrase) protective uniform and never be able to even feel the sun on their face when they are outdoors in public. Never be able to communicate by a frown or a smile.

And the idea that hundreds of thousands of women actually LIKE wearing garb that HAS to be almost unbearable in 100 degree + heat, such as is common in many Middle Eastern countries, is preposterous. Who LIKES being completely confined in garments wnen it is so hot it feels like a furnace? Certainly we don't see any MEN ever chosing to dress in such fashion. Why only women?

And even when we hear muslim women proclaiming how much they love being covered from head to toe, how do we know they are not speaking out of fear? Why are we sure that this is their real feeling? Based on the large number of 'shame' killings of women--the 'shame' rapes of women-- in some traditional Islamic countries doesn't it seem likely that many of these women have fathers, or husbands, or brothers or uncles who they are afraid of? Who would harm them if they don't say the 'right' words in public?

Forcing women to veil themselves, or (still worse) brainwashing them from childhood that they (and not men, never men) somehow and for some weird incomprehensible reason DESIRE to always be veiled in public, is one of the great injustices on earth today.

[Spinoza]

63. The ratios between men and women

in the poll are interesting. As I write, there are 56 to 11 women and 25 to 10 men who believe the burqa should be be a human rights issue like any other. In other words, women believe there is a human rights issue here at a ratio of 5.09:1; whereas men believe this is a human rights issue at a much lower ratio of 2.5:1. TWICE as many women as men think there is a problem here.

Not surprising.