reaction to 'I don't support troops' column

[yurbud]

As I suspected, this has become a cause celebre among the righties even though few if any anti-war activists would agree with what he said.

Before you vote in this poll, do the LA Times one on this:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-stein24jan24,0,4137172.column?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

Your Opinion
Can you oppose the war in Iraq and still support U.S. troops?

• Yes, the U.S. has a volunteer army, but they were not the decision-makers in going to war.
  
  
• No, if you believe the war is wrong then all participants involved share the blame.
  
  
• I don't know. Why did you hire Joel Stein again?
  
  
  

While Stein did make some valid points like yellow ribbons can't replace decent veterans benefits, and many of the troops were tricked into believing the war had something to do with 9/11, those points have been made far better by others without points like these:

I DON'T SUPPORT our troops. This is a particularly difficult opinion to have, especially if you are the kind of person who likes to put bumper stickers on his car. Supporting the troops is a position that even Calvin is unwilling to urinate on.

<snip>

And I've got no problem with other people — the ones who were for the Iraq war — supporting the troops. If you think invading Iraq was a good idea, then by all means, support away. Load up on those patriotic magnets and bracelets and other trinkets the Chinese are making money off of.

But I'm not for the war. And being against the war and saying you support the troops is one of the wussiest positions the pacifists have ever taken — and they're wussy by definition. It's as if the one lesson they took away from Vietnam wasn't to avoid foreign conflicts with no pressing national interest but to remember to throw a parade afterward.

<snip>

But blaming the president is a little too easy. The truth is that people who pull triggers are ultimately responsible, whether they're following orders or not. An army of people making individual moral choices may be inefficient, but an army of people ignoring their morality is horrifying. An army of people ignoring their morality, by the way, is also Jack Abramoff's pet name for the House of Representatives.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-stein24jan24,0,4137172.column?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

1. I support bringing the troops home and discharging them.

Perhaps they can find useful work to do.

[wryter2000]

2. Other

Stein very stupidly confused supporting the war with supporting the troops. If he had another neuron, he'd have a synapse.

[InaneAnanity]

3. I can't support the troops

They are fighting a war that doesn't need to be fought, killing people who don't deserve to be killed, and wasting money that doesn't need to be wasted.

I pretty much agree with Stein.

[yurbud]

4. they didn't choose the war

[The Stranger]

11. Why not supporting them making a choice not to go and kill people?

Support their making a choice to stand against the war. Wouldn't dealing with the consequences from the Army be better than killing people for no reason? Seek objector status. Stand against Bush. Stand with the anti-war protestors and most of the people on this web site.

Why can't they be asked to do that?

[sarge43]

5. Consequences

I'll support Stein's position immediately following his declaration that he is willing to face the same consequence for his as the troops would face - death by firing squad. Mutiny is a capital offense. Stein's moral indignation poses no difficulties for him personally, except possibly some angry e-mails. Until he willing to walk the same walk he expects others to do, then his talk is bull shit.

A moral man faces consequences; a poser does not.

[yurbud]

8. exactly--it's steep order to expect a private to do what his senators,

congressmen, and media would not--and to do so with less information at his disposal and greater consequences.

[Qanisqineq]

16. Bingo

enough said

[xchrom]

6. maybe it begs a different question:

do you hold the people of a democratic nation{not unlike ours} for unwarranted wars of invasion?

we've held the whole country of germany responsible wwII -- should it somehow be different for us and the iraq war?

just askin -- i know what i think -- but i'll keep it to myself.

[yurbud]

7. in a democratic country, I would hold people slightly less responsible

than leaders especially those who muscled their way into power rather than won.

[xchrom]

9. i'm certainly not willing to tell any liberal/progressive how

to think about this.

i just think it deserves consideration.

[yurbud]

17. it does, but troops have little lattitude after they enlist unless it's

a My Lai or Abu Ghraib situation, clearcut immorality, they would be in serious danger if they disobeyed orders.

[xchrom]

20. troops are citizens, no?

[yurbud]

22. they give up a fair number of rights when they enlist, one is the right to

protest

[xchrom]

23. i mean they are citizens like the rest of us.

at some point willful ignorance, your job{whatever that is} doesn't hold.

what is that point -- we used white phosphorus in fallujah.

are we all responsible yet?

we starved the iraqis{or willingly participated in their starvation] in the years leading up to the war, how about then?

isn't there a point when the troops along with the rest of us are responsible for the tragedies we cause?

now naturally -- i don't think we'll ever have to pay.

but stein -- if a little off the mark -- asks an interesting question, yes?

i merely want us all to think about it differently, or not.

[wtmusic]

10. Where does it say it's the troops fault more than Bush's

or is that your interpretation?

[mattclearing]

14. It doesn't. n/t

[Nutmegger]

12. I respect his opinion

and it takes a lot to say something like this in todays day and age. HOWEVER, the soldiers didn't choose the "war", it was Bush Inc who cooked the data. And with the help of the WHIG and PNAC, the troops were sent to this fake "war" and killed in the name of "freedom and democracy". (How's that working out by the way?)

The troops need to come home NOW.

[jonnyblitz]

18. well, now that the war is in its 3rd year, troops basically" choose"

it if they currently enlist. As a vet, I can't picture myself ever not supporting them though i can understand why people say they don't and I don't get all wigged out and offended. I agree with your post but only for troops that enlisted before this war began. if people don't see what is going on now and STILL they enlist, well, i don't know..:shrug:

[Nutmegger]

19. I kind of see what you're saying

I see your point about the troops before the "war". The people who enlist now though are doing so for college benefits. I know because I almost signed up but backed out because my conscience wouldn't allow me to go through with it. So I'm in college now in tremendous debt but I can actually live with myself.

So my point is that I think youths who really don't have a means of affording an education enlist so they can do so. That's why you will sometimes hear that therm "poverty draft".

http://www.objector.org/conscription/economic-conscription.html

[jonnyblitz]

21. i understand that and I will continue to support them

I was just "intellectualizing" for sake of discussion, so to speak (:crazy:)

the main reason I am so against this war is because I believe the troops are being used as fodder for nefarious or illegitimate reasons and I hate seeing their lives lost or destroyed (physically or psychologically) for a lie. that is the impetus that makes me almost a single issue person in regards to this war. i won't support a politician who is pro war.

i would never base my support of them on whether they joined before or after the war started.

[Nutmegger]

24. Gotcha

It's horrible what's going on and it's horrible what "they" will do to get people to join. Like I said, I was very close to joining and would have had school taken care of. They just make it so tempting... And they purposely target the poor, that's dirty and sickening.

Hope to see you around DU.

[mattclearing]

13. Where's "Stein was right, that people are responsible for their actions."?

Signing up for the military is volunteering to kill people for money, to give up freewill, to basically cede one's autonomy to the state.

[insane_cratic_gal]

15. We had that debate right here in DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=244954&mesg_id=244954

[Warren DeMontague]

25. I'll go with "tried to be funny...

..and failed"