I'd just like to add my two cents re: the gay rights flamewars of today

[WildEyedLiberal]

Yeah, I know, like DU needs my two cents out of the several hundreds of dollars worth of opinions that have been offered up today, but here it is anyway, if anyone cares.

I'd just like to point out that one of the achievements that we most proudly point to as a party was the signing of the Civil Rights Act in 1964. When Lyndon Johnson signed it into law, he said "Well, we've just lost the South for 30 years."

He was both right and wrong. He was right in that all the Dixiecrats - a core part of the Democratic party's majority in the mid 20th century - defected to the Republican party in protest over civil rights. He was wrong, however, about the time frame - 42 years after the Civil Rights Act, the South is still solidly Republican, for a variety of reasons - but historically, the Civil Rights Act was the trigger that forced the big switch from D to R.

While the decision to sign into law civil rights for African-Americans probably lost the Democratic party key electoral support in the ensuing 40 years, it remains one of our party's brightest shining moments because it was the right thing to do.

At no time should we be intimidated from doing the right and moral thing because of the backlash from bigots. Bigots will be bigots, and most of them already vote Republican. The decision in New Jersey today was a victory for America and for human rights, and let's be the party that stands UP for human rights - not because it's politically expedient or wins the most votes, but because it's the right thing to do.

[babylonsister]

1. WEL, every time you write, I pay attention. This is why.

I love you and appreciate your intelligence and insight. You never fail to impress me.
So K&R, with hope in my heart that there are more people like you out there thinking and expressing
these thoughts, and they are oh so important.

[cboy4]

2. Where have you been all day? LOL

Why don't more people understand that?

It makes so much sense and should go without saying....especially here at DU.

Thanks! :)

And go RedBirds

[WildEyedLiberal]

4. In and out

I've been dashing in and out all day and I kind of cursorily noticed that there was a big controversy but didn't really have time to sit down and read through to see what the deal was until tonight. I can't believe some of the stuff I read on DU. Some really, really nasty posts, especially in your thread, cboy, which prompted me to write this. :(

It really boggles my mind how standing up for ANYONE'S civil rights is controversial on a liberal message board. Do people think that the civil rights movement in the 60s wasn't controversial? That it didn't stir up violent hatred from the bigots? That it was just a foregone conclusion that blacks would be equal citizens?

Of course not, it was a courageous struggle and never would have happened unless people had been willing to take a risk and stand up for what is right. And my LGBT friends won't have rights either unless we ALL stand up and demand it together.

[cboy4]

12. Well I am absolutely overwhelmed by your kindness. I can't tell you

how happy you've made me.

Thank you so much again.

[WildEyedLiberal]

13. I'm happy my post has given you some hope

:hug:

YOUR rights are MY concern because we are all members of the human family. Hang in there cboy - it's always darkest before the dawn. We will never give up.

By the way, who is the man in your avatar?

[cboy4]

15. His name is Jason Newsted and he is the former guitar player for

the rock group Metallica.

He replaced another member of the band who died in a tour bus crash.

However in the 15 or so years as a band member, he said he never felt comfortable.

He said he felt like an outsider because he was replacing someone popular with the band.

Never felt completely like part of the family.

Well, I empathize with him.

That's how I feel with these threads about gay marriage and society as a whole.

I feel like I'm outnumbered, that I'm an outsider, that I'm not completely part of the family because I'm different.

I recently read about this, so he's become my soul mate when I'm on DU.

I love your writing, and your encouragement, WEL.

Thank you again. :hug:

[WildEyedLiberal]

16. Wow.. very moving analogy

Well, I think you're a part of the family, and a very important part at that.

Time for me to hit the hay... take care and don't let the bastards grind you down! :hug:

[cboy4]

23. They will not.

Good Night! :)

[me b zola]

3. You are spot on.

Thank you.

[Der Blaue Engel]

5. Off to the Greatest Page with you!

Eloquent in its simplicity. :) This is what it all boils down to, and I'm frankly shocked more people don't realize it.

[Heidi]

6. Proud to give you your fifth recommendation.

Stellar post. :thumbsup:

[Kiouni]

7. well said,

K&R

[havocmom]

8. Missed the flamewars. Glad not to miss your two cents

Worth your weight in gold, you are. :thumbsup:

[Bluebear]

9. Thank you for your support, WEL. nt

[nicknameless]

10. Beautifully expressed, WEL.

Thank you.

[Change has come]

11. excellent post

K&R Thank You.

[Lexingtonian]

14. very true

But a lot of people have not actually been follow gay marriage as a issue, let alone its polling, and that leads them to grossly overestimate the impact this NJ matter has now. There is no need to invoke martyrdom- the extreme anti side has declined a lot in support since 2004.

There's a lot of talk about gay marriage taking a long time to spread from the Massachusetts beachhead. Well, it looks like Mass. will repeal its '1913 law' sometime next year and that will expose DoMA and the mini-DoMAs to court challenges. Rhode Island and New York will probably legalize gay marriage next. The 'Christian Right' will make a final stand in California, or perhaps someplace like Florida.

About the Civil Rights Act, there will be a lot of effort in '07 and '08 and beyond to repeal or make moot all the disenfranchisement laws still on the books. Florida's two governor candidates have promised to restore voting rights to all ex-felons now deprived of them, and things should snowball across the country from there.

[cboy4]

17. I absolutely agree with you about how this is being grossly

overestimated.

And if the Republicans try to make this into an issue over the next couple of weeks....

My gosh, don't we have enough ammo with Iraq and one GOP scandal after the other to come back at them with something?

If this New Jersey decision is enough to cost us congress, then we are much weaker as a party than I thought.

On paper, this election should be a cake walk. It shouldn't even be close, really.

[NMMNG]

18. The Rethugs will try to make it an issue

Anything to distract the sheeple from Iraq, Foley, and the brazillion other failings and criminal goings on within the WH and Republican party. It's bizarre and sad the way they scream about how they're the "moral values" party when the only two moral values they talk about are gay marriage and abortion.

They're drowning and grasping for anything they think will pull them out of the water.

[cui bono]

19. I missed all the hoopla today and I completely agree with you.

I was just telling a friend of mine yesterday - not specifically about gay rights/marriage but about what is right (meaning correct) in general - that I'm so sick of the Dems being afraid to bring things up or say things loudly and in straightforward terms and that it's time for us to yell it out. If we hold back then the evangelists and crooks win. For the most part evangelist thinking is not the majority, they are just louder than the polite let's not rock the boat right now crowd, so it's time for us to yell out to the world and speak truth to power and stand up for what is right for every single person. If you don't play to win, you won't. You can't calculate and strategize with your head, you have to speak what's in your soul and do what you know is right. Those are the people who shine in this world, the ones who let their passion out and follow their hearts.

It is time. It is time to shout about all the injustices going on in this country. Now!

All I know is that first you've got to get mad. You've got to say, 'I'm a HUMAN BEING, Goddamnit! My life has VALUE!' So I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it, and stick your head out, and yell, 'I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!'
--- Howard Beale, Network, 1976

[readmoreoften]

20. And might I add...

We're always going to be portrayed as the party of "gay rights" on Fox News, CNN, and the Christian Broadcasting Network. Wouldn't it take the wind out of their sails if we *actually became the party of gay rights*. And then we could tell the American people that-- actually-- we're the party of human rights in general.

I mean, hell, why not try the high ground for a change. As you point out, we've certainly been there before.

[radfringe]

21. 2 lavendar cents

two weeks ago my partner (of 9 years as of 10/31) went for day surgery for carpal tunnel

In order for me to may decisions her behalf should anything unforseen happen, and to get post-surgical instruction - we had to bring copies of a health proxy - basically a document saying I had permission to make medical decisions should be be incapacitated.

how many married couples have to do this?

I went through this a number of years ago with my late partner of 17 years - she had ovarian cancer. There were several surgeries, chemo and emergency runs to the hospital. Each time (even though they had copies of a health proxy on file from previous visits) I had to produce a copy of the health proxy. After the 2nd-3rd time of having to rush home to get a copy - I just kept a big envelope in my car with multiple copies.

how many married couples have to do this?

There was also power of attorney documents prepared so I could take care of any legal/financial matters.

how many married couples have to do this?

yeah, the timing is bad for the NJ decision - however, if the decision were announced after Nov. 7 - dems would have been accused of pressuring the courts to delay the decision until after the elections. (pretty much the way we accuse repubs of delaying decisions or otherwise manipulate timing of hot-button issues)

in the big picture - how is gay marriage going to effect the economy? will gay marriage cause gas/oil prices to rise? will gay marriage cause Iraq to become a bigger mess? If we are fighting for democracy, freedoms over there - why aren't we willing to fight for them over here?

is this issue going to be used as a distraction? You bet it will be - because the repubs cannot run on Iraq (Frist has already told his buddies to cut & run from discussing Iraq). The repubs can't run on the economy, the economy sucks for the majority of Americans. The repubs can't run on FEAR of TERRORISM - it's not working any more.

But they can hold me up as a boogey-dyke.

[cui bono]

22. OMG!!!

You're the boogey-dyke??? :scared:

;) :hi:

[radfringe]

24. lol

and I'm not hiding in the closet... :evilgrin:

[Cooley Hurd]

25. Happy to kick and recommend...

20 to 40 years from now, when ALL Americans are viewed as equal under the law, these times that we now slog thru will be viewed as some of America's darkest because of things like the denial of equal rights to the GLBT community.

[BR_Parkway]

26. A most humble Thank you is all I can manage to say after that.

[nofurylike]

27. outstanding! thank you, WildEyedLiberal. eom

[terrya]

28. This Democrat and gay man thanks you.

I couldn't even begin to improve on this superb post.

Thank you.

[meganmonkey]

29. Can anyone really argue with this?

Thanks for laying it out like this. In the heat of the flamewars, it was difficult for people to really express the simple truth of this matter like you have, so I am grateful that you have taken the effort to step back and say it so well.

:applause:

I was so offended by what some people were saying yesterday. I couldn't believe what I was reading. So much scapegoating, and the validating of RW bigotry...

But no one can argue with what you just said, because you are right on.

There is never a better time than now to ensure equal right for all people.

[cboy4]

31. That should really be a rhetorical question, but just wait until

everyone wakes up and reads this thread. :eyes:

[Raster]

30. THANK YOU!

:kick:28!

[Solly Mack]

32. Thank you

"not because it's politically expedient or wins the most votes, but because it's the right thing to do."

Yes

[bear425]

33. Beautifully said. I can't wait to share it with my partner of

22 years. She is from New Jersey, originally. We hope to make it legal asap. Thank you for your thoughtful words.

[VeggieTart]

34. If signing the Civil Rights Act cost the Dems the South...

...then there is something seriously wrong with the South. And I grew up there (well, in Florida). If supporting gay marriage rights costs the Dems support from some people, then there is something wrong with them. The Dems need to come out (no pun intended) clearly with the statement that they support civil rights for ALL people.

The stories of gay men and lesbians forced to jump through hoops to decide the course of care for their seriously ill partners breaks my heart. Garry Studds' spouse will not get Congressional death benefits, but if a straight congressman who dies days, weeks, or months after marrying his third, fourth, fifth wife -- well, how much you want to be SHE would be eligible.

[entanglement]

35. I agree

:) :toast: :)

[lumberjack_jeff]

36. There's a difference

Johnson signed the civil rights law at a time when Democrats owned both houses of congress and his predecessor had been recently martyred. It was the right thing to do and the right time to do it.

Today, we appear to be unsatisfied that our people, who own neither congress nor the presidency nor the courts and who are fighting valiantly to prevent the country from sliding even further into totalitarianism are not marching in the front of the parade holding the banner for GLBT rights.

There's a difference between campaigning for an issue with questionable popularity and governing by choosing the right thing in opposition to conventional wisdom.

Would Clinton have been elected if the assault weapon ban had been the cornerstone of his campaign?

There are few guarantees in life, but one of them is that GLBT rights won't happen if we don't win.

[Seabiscuit]

37. BINGO! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

I jumped for joy when I first read of the NJ Supreme Court's ruling.

It's about time!!!

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

[Mr_Spock]

38. Absolutely! We should NEVER be intimidated from doing the right thing!

Total agreement here! :applause:

[WilliamPitt]

39. K and R

[ThomCat]

40. Absolutely! Well said!

:applause:

[tk2kewl]

41. Hear! Hear!

:thumbsup:

[JerseygirlCT]

42. I'm glad you gave your two cents

They match up nicely with my own!

[Maat]

43. Beautiful, WEL! I agree completely!

Now, I'm in California. This PFLAGer's official position is ...

"I fully support same-sex marriage rights. I will be putting great effort into getting those rights secured. Until that's the law of the land, I support the full and complete domestic partnership rights that California has in place."

Does that sound like appropriate wording (this PFLAGer could use the help)?

[mopinko]

44. well said.

k-r

[BelgianMadCow]

45. Hook. Line. Sinker.

I just bought your two cents. Interesting historic perspective.

[nam78_two]

46. Great post -K&R

Yayy for once I am not too late to recommend a great post :)!

[gaspee]

47. The right thing to do

Of course it's the right thing to do. I can't believe this conversation is even neccessary on DU. I don't believe in throwing anyone under the bus. Beautiful post.

Conservatives are ALWAYS on the wrong side of history. They've never been right. I always keep that in mind when the struggle seems darkest.

NOw, if we could only get some kind of equal rights ammendment passed sometime in my lifetime.

[spoony]

48. That was so good I'll forgive your being a Cards fan ;-)

[Maven]

49. Kick

A positive message. Thank you.

[Maven]

50. (dupe)

[donco6]

51. Thanks and Amen.

You are one WildEyedLiberal.

[Puglover]

52. Thanks very much.

I'm very grateful for your rightness. I was pretty discouraged after the other night. Your post has brightened me up a great deal.

Pug

[WhollyHeretic]

53. Very well said.

:applause: :yourock:

[vickitulsa]

54. There are times when I'm glad I didn't find time to read DU.

I guess yesterday was one of those times, since I totally missed the flame wars you speak of -- and glad I am that I did! (Omg, am I channeling Yoda now? :))

I opt out of flame wars whenever I find myself involved in them, anyway. But there are those rare times when the issue is just SO important I cannot extricate myself without at least stating my position unequivocally first, which at times comes off in a rather "in yer face" style. And that feels very much like participating in the tit-for-tat verbal battle, so it is never a decision I make lightly.

This time, I'm particularly glad not only that I missed the flame wars but that I also caught your great OP here! Love the history you brought to bear on this issue ... should help some folks regain a little of that vital P word: Perspective.

Remembering history often has that effect, thankfully.

I have a hard time understanding how ANYONE can continue to proudly wave their bigot banner ever since the Matthew Shephard tragedy. If other events before that one weren't appalling enough for some people, surely that horror should have brought people to their senses and reminded them of their humanity!

Unless, of course, they left said humanity behind at some point in their sorry lives.... :evilgrin:


Another thing I wish to say, which some may find a bit odd of me -- but I know some will completely understand:

As I lay here snuggled into my bed still in the late morning (it got really cold and wet here early today) while I was reading your OP and the replies in this thread, my little chihuahua mix Bebo was asleep behind my back. His body was stretched out alongside my back under the covers for maximum two-body warmth (he gets sooo cold!), and his head was resting near my neck.

He was having dreams, and he started yipping very softly as dogs sometimes do when they're dreaming. You know, that muffled sound they make, along with the small jerking motions of their feet, like they're running or playing, too.

As I thought about how difficult it is for some people to accept the GLBT community of HUMAN BEINGS as genuinely and fully part of the human FAMILY, I realized how much easier it is for those same people to accept canines, felines, and other forms of animal life as truly part of their families!

Isn't it ironic, though? How could that be? What on earth could have gone wrong in the wiring of some folks' brains and the DNA in their sinews and the blood pumping through their hearts that they can more readily accept dogs and cats as "family" than others with bona fide homo sapiens qualifications?!

I just don't understand it, and it so often leaves me shaking my head, wondering if humankind deserves much of a break on this planet....

I'm glad people like you, WEL, can so eloquently express the TRUTH on this topic, so that maybe -- just MAYBE -- more of those who are somehow weirdly blinded to it may have their eyes opened. Once that happens, we can hope their hearts will open similarly.

It's just so hard putting up with them at all until then, though!

Good thing we accept THEM as part of the human family still, isn't it? Hmmm....

THANK YOU, WEL, for articulating some important ideas for all of us.

[Withywindle]

55. Flawlessly said! Exactly.

:yourock:

[stepnw1f]

56. Amen! (nt)

[gollygee]

57. Go Tigers!!

but yeah - I agree with you about that non-baseball thing.

:)

[Divine Discontent]

58. no comment really needed after that!

God bless us all, everyone.


www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<-- antibush prodem stickers/shirts

[gully]

59. Lyndon Johnson had to be in office to sign that legislation.

I agree fully that the next President who takes office has to pass a federal civil rights bill for the GLBT community granting partnership rights, but it's not likely to be a Republican who takes this step.